Episode 102 - The Second Process of Publishing: Design with Orna Ross

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Orna Ross of the Alliance of Independent Authors joins me for the second of a series of seven episodes devoted to the Seven Processes of Publishing. This week the focus is on Design. We talk about cover design, and how it needs to be not a work of art but a billboard that will appeal to your target readers. We discuss the importance of a professional cover designer who will understand the tropes of your genre and options for making that path affordable. And we talk about book formatting, including the tools that are available to indy authors to effortlessly create the various file types needed by the online platforms.​

Orna Ross is the founder and head of the Alliance of Independent Authors, a non-profit professional business membership organization for self-publishing authors. ALLi provides trusted advice, supportive guidance, and a range of resources, within a welcoming community of authors and advisors.

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https://www.ornaross.com/

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150 Self-Publishing Questions Answered: ALLi’s Writing, Publishing, & Book Marketing Tips for Authors and Poets (Publishing Guides for Indie Authors 5) (affiliate link)
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Episode 088 - How to Receive and Give Critique with Tiffany Yates Martin

Transcript

[00:00:00] Matty: Hello, and welcome to this second in the series of the Seven Processes of Publishing and I'm here with Orna Ross. Hey Orna, how are you doing?

[00:00:08] Orna: Hi, Matty. I'm very well. How are you?

[00:00:10] Matty: I'm doing great, thank you. As I mentioned, we're on to the second of the seven processes, the first being Editorial, and now we're on to Design.

[00:00:19] And this is really, what does the inside and what does the outside of the book look like? And I'm going to start out with cover design. And one of the things that I thought was very interesting, I'm going to use this as kind of an entree to this conversation is, in the book 150 SELF PUBLISHING QUESTIONS ANSWERED, which is where much of this material can also be found, there was the conversation about cover design: billboard or work of art. Do you want to talk a little bit about what you think of when you think of cover design, billboard, or work of art?

[00:00:51] Orna: Yeah. The function of a cover design is so sophisticated now and covers are so beautiful. I mean, to see just how much design has moved on. It's really interesting to look back at covers say 10 years ago and just what is possible now is just amazing. Digital publishing has enabled extraordinarily beautiful covers. But it isn't really the function of a cover to be beautiful. That is all very well. But if it doesn't work as a cover if it doesn't do the billboard thing, then it's a failure, no matter how beautiful the cover is.

[00:01:34] So I think we've got to always be thinking about our cover as the vehicle that will cause the reader to look further into the book. A cover doesn't actually sell a book, but what it does is it's the first step towards the sale, and that's what we've got to think of. It. It's got to be an attractor. It's got to speak to the reader that you want to attract to your books. There's absolutely no point in somebody picking up the book because they like the cover if they don't read it. I mean, it's fine, but it's not what you're after. You want them to pick up the book and go further. You want that cover to speak about some emotional connection that you are trying to have with the reader. It's really a bridge between your heart and the reader's heart. That's what the cover should be.

[00:02:30] Matty: Are there some markers that people can look for or red flags they should watch out for if they're starting to think through, maybe they're finishing up their first book and they're thinking through what they want the cover to look like, they're thinking that they might want to ask a professional cover designer for, any tips to lead them more to the billboard than to the work of art?

[00:02:50] Orna: Yeah. So I think in these early stages of the publishing process, the same thing we were talking about editorial last time, you're moving from being the writer of the book, which calls on all sorts of skills and ways of being in relation to the material, into being the publisher of the book, which calls for a completely different set of skills and ways of relating to the material.

[00:03:16] So the first thing is to begin that process of objectivity that we talked about last time in relation to editorial. So with the editorial, it's about creating a distance through time or space and all the ways that we've discussed then. For cover design, it's the same. You've got to take two steps back and ask yourself all sorts of questions about the reader and what's going to attract the reader. But the main thing to do I think is to look at other authors in your genre. So go online. Go to the top 10, look at the book covers that are there. See what is actually attracting your ideal readers right at this moment and begin to break the cover down in your mind.

[00:04:02] So look at, okay, that's the image. That's the author name. That's the title. What sort of fonts are being used? What sort of colors are being used? And why? What are these, what's this image? What are these colors. What's the overall mood? What's it saying to the reader? Why were these particular choices made? What does this cover have in common with the other nine at the top 10? These kinds of questions I think are well worth beginning the exploration, long before you're finished your book, as you're writing.

[00:04:38] Matty: I think it kind of fun exercise is to subscribe to the reader email newsletters like BookBub and similar in your genre. Because a couple of times I found, you know, I'm subscribed to thriller, suspense, mystery kind of that set of genres. And it's surprising how often there are two and sometimes three almost identical covers in the list. And the one that I bring up a lot because I've collected a bunch of examples on The Indy Author Facebook page is the historical book with a woman in the red outfit from the back during World War II with the World War II planes in the sky and an identifiable architectural feature from either London or Paris in the background.

[00:05:21] And they're so similar. I mean, not similar in the sense of plagiaristically similar, but it is sending a very clear signal of, if you like this book with the woman in the red dress, you're going to like this book with a woman in the red dress, too. And it's very clear when you look through book lists like that, that are genre based, in addition to looking at the online retail pages, what those tropes are in your genre.

[00:05:45] Orna: Definitely. And I think it can be quite a process for some authors to get from the normal kind of relationship that a writer has with their own material to understanding that. So this is the kind of thing that if your trade published, you criticize your publisher for, but when you become an indy author and become a good publisher yourself, you actually begin to see the value all the time, like, why publishers do it. Because you're thinking about the reader or you're thinking they've got five or 10 seconds that they're going to spend looking at this cover.

[00:06:17] So there is no room for subtlety and, very often authors talk about, for example, she had a red dress on in the cover, but my heroine never wore a red dress all the way through. And that's not what a cover is about. It isn't about reflecting your book in that way. It's just about getting all the shorthand signifiers that say to the reader, this is a book you're going to enjoy. And it can be quite a journey for some writers to go from how they relate to their book as a writer to that.

[00:06:54] Matty: I think an interesting analogy is to think of it as like visual keywords. I don't think anyone's ever putting together their keywords and saying, I can't use that set of keywords. Everyone else has used those. I want a different and fresh set of keywords. No, you want to find all the keywords that match the other books that you. it would be comparably interesting to your readers. And the cover can be like the visual version of keywords.

[00:07:15] Orna: Such a good way to think about it. It really is. And that's because you're taking the art of it away and it is because we're thinking of either our own art in our own work or the artwork that's making up the image in the cover. That's really good. I'm going to, I'm going to use that one, Matty.

[00:07:34] Matty: You had mentioned the importance of thinking about why the covers work, looking through the top 10 in your genre and looking for the similarities and why they work. That's probably going to be comfortable to people who are not only writers but also have kind of an artistic bent. But if that's not your thing, are there any resources people can use to better understand the why of that?

[00:07:56] Orna: Yeah, we have a post on the Self-Publishing Advice blog, which is selfpublishingadvice.org and it's how to commission a designer. And in fact, we have a few key, big posts on design and book design and what it is and why it matters, so it's definitely worth checking those out.

[00:08:18] I think understanding cover design to becoming good at commissioning a designer and I suppose this is a good place to say, don't do your own book design please, unless you already are a book designer. Even if you're a graphic designer, don't do it unless you understand the composition of book design, because it's not just again about how it looks, it's about much more than that.

[00:08:44] But I think to understand that it's a process as well, commissioning good design, and as I spoke of in relation to editorial, I think we skip over the research process that is necessary here. So the more time that you spend looking at them, the more you're going to get a sense of the why, if you like, which lies behind those design choices.

[00:09:10] And it can also be an interesting exercise to read the book description in relation to the design of the cover and just see the way in which certain tropes and things that turn up again and again in book descriptions in your genre will also be turning up in the actual visuals. And all of this helps you to understand those kind of trigger points that make the reader take the action. So when you're thinking about your why, you're thinking about why would a reader actually, why would my ideal reader pick up this book?

[00:09:49] Matty: There are some conventions and I'm not going to remember them specifically, but for example, the type of font that's used, like serif versus sans serif font, or size of the font and things like that, that as a non-graphic designer, I might be responding to that as a reader, but I don't fully understand as an author, and so I think if people can maybe follow book design blogs or just keep a finger on the pulse of that. Or at least, maybe ask your book cover designer, when you get it back and the font is way bigger than you think looks nice, ask them why they did it. And they'll say, oh, so it will show up in a thumbnail, or whatever their answer is, to use that interaction as a learning experience as well.

[00:10:36] Orna: Definitely. Romance books for example, will tend to have swirlier fonts than techno thrillers. And that's a very kind of obvious distinction, but that kind of thing is going on all the time, and authors would say, why is the title bigger than my name, or why is my name bigger than the title? Usual convention would be, if you're an established author who has a platform that it in itself is going to attract readership, then the author name gets more billing. If it's your first book, first time out then your well-chosen title is probably going to get more billing. So there are things like that going on as well.

[00:11:16] But what I find with most writers is that they love design, you know, the creativity around design, they actually like to follow book design blogs and to learn more about book design and what's going on there because it is actually quite fascinating.

[00:11:31] Matty: It is interesting to see the effect, and then why, have professionals explain why it's giving the effect that it has? I know a lot of book cover designers will ask clients or prospective clients to provide them with covers that they like. Might that lead down the wrong path if the author doesn't have a good sense themselves about it?

[00:11:54] Orna: I think the question they usually tend to ask for is the covers that you want the end design to emulate onto to explain why. So again, it's back to this question of why, so an experienced designer would be able to take all your amateur author kind of assessments of the covers, and from that get a sense of something that should go into the cover, of which they will obviously know the genre tropes and stuff like that, because you would have chosen a designer who is suitable for your genre. Did we say that point? That's really important that you get a designer who has experience in your actual genre, so they'll be able to take your responses and your sense of what you're doing.

[00:12:41] And designers are very good at ignoring you as well. You'll find we'll come up with all sorts of things, ideas and stuff, and they'll kind of ignore that and they come out with something. And the power of a good visual is very powerful, but of course you may not always love what they come up with.

[00:13:00] My own designer who I've worked with since I began indy publishing, which is now a decade ago, she has said to me that it is really important to her always that as well as everything else working, that the author likes that the end result is really key for her. And I think for me, as I said, publishing, also one of the reasons I left trade publishing was I hated the covers that they did so much. And I know why they did them, and I know how they were positioning the book in the marketplace, and I know which was successful and worked and all of that. And I'm grateful for that part, but I also know it's horrible to hate your cover because you just never feel great handing the book over to somebody or inviting them to read it.

[00:13:45] So I think as an indy author, one of the perks of the job is that you love your covers. So they have to work commercially, but you also have to like them. So if you don't, it's back to the drawing board. And most designers will give you couple of worlds and won't settle it down too much at the start. It can be exploratory and stuff at the beginning, so there's room to change things up.

[00:14:11] Matty: I had an interesting experience with my first Ann Kinnear cover. It was the first book I had published, and at the time I think that when the designer asked me to provide covers that I liked, there's an edition of the Patricia Highsmith books where there's an image, but it's not a clear image, it's an architectural detail that's used as a design element. So if you look carefully, you realize it's a spiral staircase or something like that, but when you're just glancing at it, it just looks like a design element. And I love the covers of those books. And I gave him those, I said, I love this idea of the architectural element as a design feature, and I gave him the summary of the book, which is this woman who can sense spirits and has a consulting business around that.

[00:14:58] And so I got the first one back and it was a Gothic house on a hill with a creepy tree, a moon and then hands around a crystal ball. I was like, no, no! Where's my design element? And looking back, I realize that would have been a totally legitimate, and this was like an experienced, pretty well-known cover designer, that would have been a totally legitimate choice depending on how I wanted to position my book.

[00:15:29] But part of my pitch for my book was that sure she can talk to dead people, but it's in the context of this otherwise very normal world. She has a consulting business, that's like a CPA and she has a business manager and it's not like the woo-woo Ouija board kind of thing. And so I feel like if I had gone with that, I probably would have sold a lot of books initially, but then the story wouldn't have paid off the expectation that the cover set.

[00:15:58] And so, I initially did find a cover designer who did the single architectural element. And even though I recognize that I may be losing some sales because they don't jump out at people the way hands around a crystal ball would, I feel like the story's paying off the expectations the cover sets, and like you're saying, I just love showing people those books because I love the design. Any thoughts about that story?

[00:16:24] Orna: Yes, very much because back to my story of why I didn't like the covers, it was the trade publishing thing. It was very much that. So the book sold well, but I very much felt I wasn't building a readership because it was always this disjunction and people were constantly saying to me, I only bought your book because somebody said I should. I would never would have thought I would enjoy it because of the cover, but I actually did enjoy it. And of course the contrary happened probably more often. People bought the book expecting one sort of reading experience and got quite a different reading experience.

[00:17:02] And I think it's shortsighted, and I understand why trade publishing does it because they mostly are working through the bookstore model and you've only got a short period of time in which to move the books off the shelf, or the booksellers sending them back, and so you do this. But I think in the long-term it doesn't do the author or the publisher any favors really, because you're not building that readership. And in these days where you've got customer reviews, when people get a book that the reading experience doesn't match the cover and they're very quick to say, you know, you get your one-star review, not because the book is bad, but because the reader expected something quite different.

[00:17:45] So, I think it's really, it's the single most important thing I think is that you're positioning your book correctly in the marketplace. And as we said, that takes a bit of research. That is a skill. That's not something that most of us as authors, lots of authors, are not very visual, we're verbal and not brilliant on visuals. And so that whole way in which the visual elements of the cover are positioning your book is something that you need, it's a skill you need to develop, and your designer can hopefully help you to do that.

[00:18:21] Matty: So for people who are convinced that a professional is the way to go but they don't have boatloads of cash to sink into it, let's start with the most expensive, tips about working with a professional designer who's creating a cover specifically for your book, and then if you could work through some of the maybe more financial accessible options as well.

[00:18:41] Orna: Yeah. I think the main thing in terms of saving money and making sure it's as cost-effective as possible in terms of the designer that you're working with is to respect their time. So the more you can give them up front, so we've spoken about providing your book description and providing a sense of what you want the cover to convey and having a clear idea of who your target reader is and going for somebody who already has experience in your genre and giving them some samples of book covers that you like yourself and explaining why. All of these things that we have discussed, these are ways in which you can actually make sure the process is as cost-effective as possible, because if it takes extra time or the designer has to do lots of different rounds, actually, sometimes it means that it's more expensive, but it can also mean it's over, because there's something about the nature of the whole commissioning and design and production process that, it's a way, even if you have to go back at it too many times, it kind of goes out the window, and taking care of that level is important.

[00:19:48] And pre-made designs are a possibility that some people use. So these are not templates that are just a made up beforehand, but what they are is designs that a designer has produced in advance. They are relatively inexpensive, they are there, and you choose it, and the designer sells it to you with maybe some small modifications or no modifications, you're happy with it, off you go. It's a unique design, it's not going to turn up somewhere else. It's not like they're selling it and it's not like they print and sell a hundred of them. And it could be a more cost-effective option.

[00:20:25] You can try some of the marketplace sites where you can actually get designs, and sometimes good designs, really quite cheaply. So Fiverr and places like that. You need to be careful there though that you know what you're doing and that you have a very clear idea of the brief and that you are hiring somebody that's able to deliver. But you can actually get surprisingly cost-effective cover designs. And some designers who work in different countries where the cost of living is not so high, and they are prepared to actually give you really quite amazingly good cover designs at a really reasonable price.

[00:21:07] So those are some of the ways in which you can make sure that it doesn't cost you a ridiculous amount of money.

[00:21:14] Matty: One thing that I had not thought of before, but I was so excited about this realization that I've mentioned it a couple of times on the podcast already, but the idea that image design and typography are sort of two different skills. And so I thought of it because you were mentioning the fact that designers who are working in other countries where the cost of living is lower can often be less expensive, but oftentimes English isn't their first language. And I know with one of my designers, I almost put a book out that had a typo in the back cover text, because English wasn't his native language.

[00:21:48] And not only just the correctness of it, but I do think it is a completely different skillset. And I feel really fortunate that my current cover designer for the Ann Kinnear books is very good at both of those. But if I were spinning up a new series or going to a new designer, I would definitely consider having somebody do the design and then, I actually feel like I would have more of a flair for typography. I don't have any flair for the visual design part but working in some other way on the typography part, so you're sure you're getting the best of both worlds.

[00:22:21] Orna: Yeah. Any creative kind of ways of approaching it that makes sense, it's the joy being indy, do whatever works for you best. And some of us are working with very tight budgets, especially at the beginning. So this is an area where you can spend thousands if you're not careful. You do need to be careful, and you do need to remember that it is just the function of the cover to sell the book to the reader and to get their interest. So not to overspend is important.

[00:22:52] Matty: I wanted to grab a couple of my books because I wanted to use them to illustrate something.

[00:22:57] One was your comment about getting on a cover designer's schedule early. And I definitely found that with my current designer for my Ann Kinnear books, and I'll describe it so people are listening can follow along. So this is the cover that I ended up after I rejected the house on the hill with the creepy tree and the crystal ball.

[00:23:16] So it's a, a brass doorknocker in the shape of a hand. And I've had this rebranded a couple of times, mainly just by having the font changed. So when it first came out, it was a scripty font. And then there was this brief period where it was this kind of big, jagged font. And then, I just recently got it rebranded with this font that I think does a nice job of combining a classic look, but sort of retro as well.

[00:23:42] Orna: The whole cover, elegant is the word that jumps out at me. It's beautiful.

[00:23:47] Matty: Thank you. And I liked it because people who have the earlier versions would recognize this as the same book they have, but it's still freshened up. And then the nice thing about that was, once I'd established this, I just want, you know, I want a central design element, then it was very easy to basically just find photos. So the second one is a kind of similar thing in this case, it's the doorknob that's the central design element. I have one that has an aviation theme and so a broken aviation instrument is the central theme. And then this padlock has a connection to the story as well.

[00:24:23] And so, if I have to book my cover designer far in advance, I could be only partway through the story, and she says, okay, you're at the top of the list, and I can say, there's a padlock on it. And so it saves her time, and it saves me money because she doesn't have to start from scratch each time. She knows it's going to be this font and it's going to be this placement, and once we've decided what the central image is, it's a relatively fast process. So that ability to kind of repeat a design I think is a time and cost savings.

[00:24:57] And then the other book I wanted to show is the first of my Lizzy Ballard series. And I had gotten the designer for this from 99designs and I did an open contest. So with the Ann Kinnear books, I had a really clear idea of what I wanted the cover to look like. For the Lizzy Ballard books, I didn't have clue one what I wanted the cover to look like. And so I did an open contest and so I was getting a lot of entries and then I could vote and tell people which ones I liked and didn't like and ended up with one that I love. But I found it was very dark, and the subtleties that I loved about it in the design made it not successful as a book cover because it really faded into the background. And so fairly recently I went back to the designer, and I said, could you brighten it up a bit? And he came back with a cover that was brighter, and also, I think more consistent with the covers of two and three, which he also did.

[00:25:49] Being able to loop back and freshen up covers, I think, or regroup a little bit, if it's not working is important. What are some markers that people should be looking out for that would make them revisit a cover?

[00:26:04] Orna: Well, if you're not selling, if you're not converting, particularly if you know that you've had people land on your page but not convert, or land on your cover and not go any further, I think that's the big one. And I had that experience with the cover. When we changed the cover, it was an instant change. So I had commissioned the cover. It was a mother and a daughter story. I'd wanted a mother and daughter on the cover and the designer did exactly what I asked. And I liked the cover. They liked the cover, blah, blah, blah. Just did not work, just died a death. And we changed it and immediately the sales started. So it totally was a cover issue, and the replacement was completely different. It was completely different.

[00:26:50] If you're not selling, I would say, do look at your cover. First of all, also fresh in your descriptions, but do look up at your cover. And if it is vastly different to what's around it, so covers change over time. And if your book is looking very different in a lineup, you might want to think about why that is, compared to other books in its genre. And you might be happy to leave it, if it's selling well. And sometimes standing out can be a good thing. Not being the fourth red dress but being like different to can actually be a good thing.

[00:27:28] So there's no hard and fast rule about covers on, it's not a science, it's very much an art. And so it's very difficult to give absolute instructions about what does work and what doesn't work, because while you are going for a certain effect. It's an emotional response and it's not going to be the same for everyone.

[00:27:50] If you get feedback on a cover, people find it distasteful or inappropriate or whatever. I mean, if it's one person, not at all. But if you're getting regular feedback from people that they have to get beyond the cover and people will tell you that. It's something that readers will say to you. I really had to get beyond your cover. And I'm so glad that I did because blah, blah, blah. That might make you want to look at it again.

[00:28:18] And the other thing that happens is covers get stale. Like you, any book I've had that's been around for a good while has had a refresh. They've all been refreshed over time. I think you love it one year, but three years later, you don't necessarily cause it's like fashion. Why do we suddenly start wearing yellow? And you look around and everybody's wearing yellow, and you realize, oh gosh, I was caught again by fashion. It's like that, you don't know why these trends change, but they do change and your book, begins to feel stale. And if it's feeling that way to you, it's probably feeling that way to readers as well. So those are some of the multiple reasons why you might make a change.

[00:29:33] Matty: Are there any differences in advice you would give about cover design if someone is only planning on publishing an ebook or they want maybe different covers for ebook or print. Any distinction that people should make based on the medium in which the book is going to be printed?

[00:29:51] Orna: I think it's best to have consistency across audio, print, and ebook, and keep them consistent, generally speaking. If you're only doing ebook, then you can get away with a very simple cover. The ebooks, people don't have quite the same cover expectations, and they're not going to hold it in their hand. And digital audio is the same, not going to hold it in their hand. When a book is going into print, the cover, everything about the design becomes more complex, and will take more of your time, more of your energy to get it right. So with an ebook, you can get away with a simpler sort of approach.

[00:30:29] And I think you need to also decide, we had an interesting thing within ALLi with some of our covers where there was a discussion about making them more like self-help, self-improvement, or more like an organization's instructional books. Authority on the one side versus friendliness on the other end, which you're going to go for.

[00:30:55] And these are also the kinds of decisions that you have to make as an author whereby you might not be making the decision that is just about which cover is going to sell more. You might have other reasons why you will want your covers to convey something to the reader that you need to keep in mind. I think the most important thing with the cover is to have the confidence to go with your gut and then have the confidence to change it if it doesn't work out. But across formats, I feel myself that keeping it consistent is good.

[00:31:27] Matty: What kind of elements where you debating or considerations where you debating between the authoritative organizationally sponsored thing versus the self-help, and which did you come down on?

[00:31:40] Orna: We decided to go with the authority thing, for now anyway, because a lot of the books that we publish, they're not quick, fast reads. And we do have a short guide series, which are quick reads about one specific thing, like getting a book into libraries or getting your first reviews or ISBN, just short, sharp, just one thing. So we do have books like that.

[00:32:04] But our general guides tend to be quite longer, they take in a glossary, you know, the organization has done a lot of work, done a lot of research around best practice and so on. And we felt that should be reflected in the books as well as just saying, okay, we might get more sales if we had a more kind of sexy puppy picture or something on it but at the end of the day, it's like what you were talking about earlier. There is the expectation then, and you'd almost need to have slightly different books when they opened up, you know? So, yeah, we went for the authority in the end.

[00:32:46] Matty: I had to ask about rights because I couldn't really talk to you without talking about IP and rights. So when it comes to materials that are used in a book cover, what should an author keep an eye on and what do they need to keep tabs on or manage themselves versus what can they rely on a cover designer to keep tabs on and manage?

[00:33:07] Orna: Well, I think, as businesspeople, we need to keep rights issues to the front of our minds, always, in terms of respecting our own rights and also respecting the rights of other creative professionals, and so there is a fairly standard sort of rights set up with the images that are provided for your book cover. So your designer generally retains the rights but gives you the publishing licensing rights. And so you can do what you need to do as the author. Sometimes authors want to buy those rights out, in which case you should be prepared to pay more because, as I say, it's about respecting other creative professionals' work.

[00:33:52] Sometimes designers can get very uptight about what you can and can't do, but actually that's often because they don't understand book publishing and what is necessary. So, you know, reproducing postcards, posters, this kind of thing, you need to ensure that you have the rights to do all of the things that you need to do to market the book and use the cover appropriately within the marketing of your book. So these are all things that you need to be aware of as you go through the process. And really, the onus is on you as always with rights issues, to make sure that you're properly informed and that you're following best practices.

[00:34:35] Matty: I understand that it's still not all that common for an author and cover designer to have a contract, which kind of surprised me. Can some of these things, if in the spec that you provide to the cover designer, you include things in that email, let's say, like, I assume you'll pull visual resources from these sites, or just be aware, I'm planning on printing this on mugs and magnets. So, you know, I'm expecting to use it beyond just the book cover. Is that a reasonable step for authors to take to try to protect themselves on these things?

[00:35:09] Orna: Yeah, I think so. I'm a great believer in getting as much information as possible in upfront so everybody knows where they stand, and with anyone who's experienced these, there's very little that's going to cause any problems around rights because it's all very well worked out in terms of his normal best practices, very established. So there shouldn't be any issues. But sometimes you have inexperienced designers or inexperienced publishers who don't quite know what's what. So, yeah, once it's written down in an email, that's as good as a fancy contract to doubly signed and exchanged. Once it's written, it's there in writing and it's clear that you agreed. what your contract expectations were.

[00:35:54] The main thing I think is to educate yourself so you know what your expectations should be. And so you're going in with confidence that what you're asking for is reasonable. And if you have any questions about anything like that, ALLi can always help, so don't hesitate to ask.

[00:36:12] Matty: One of the things that I like about working with professionals through platforms like Reedsy or Upwork, those are the two primary ones I use, is that assuming you're keeping your communications to those platforms as they encourage you to do, you have a history of all of that. And so if there turns out to be some question, you can go back and say, no, on June 1st, 2019, I told you that I was going to be using this on t-shirts and mugs, and there isn't any question. That log will always be there.

[00:36:40] Orna: Absolutely. I think it's well worth paying the price for the split of marketplaces just for that alone. And they always have these safeguards built in to protect both you and the person you're hiring. As a publisher, you can find yourself hiring quite a few people across the seven stages of the process. So if you are using a platform like that, it's also much easier to keep track of what's going on than it is on conventional email.

[00:37:16] Matty: So we've talked a little bit about how you can get a good, high quality and professional exterior that's going to appeal to the readers that you want to reach. So we wanted to talk also about the other side of design, which is book formatting. And I think that this conversation has probably changed a lot over the last five years or so. I know for me, the way I go about this has definitely changed because of the tools that are more readily accessible to authors themselves to deal with this. Do you have recommendations or does ALLi have recommendations about how people go about this?

[00:37:49] Orna: It depends on what you want as an outcome. So most authors of straightforward text-based books, like novels or a straightforward type to nonfiction or something that doesn't have illustrations. And what most of us are looking for is the simplest, most cost effective, most non-noticeable interior. So if you don't notice anything too much about the interior because everything is just fine and it's not going to trip anybody up and it looks good. It's clean, it's crisp, the reader can read it and they're happy with it.

[00:38:24] And the tools are just amazing now. I mean, you can get just fantastic formatting for your ebook and there are no excuses anymore really, just brilliant, brilliant tools. You mentioned Vellum. I'm a Vellum believer as well. And it's fantastic software, but there are lots of them. And we have a directory of approved partners and formatters and softwares in there. And if you want something a bit more unusual, though, or if you do illustration books or you're a children's author or poet and your needs may be different, and you may need to hire a professional who will lay out the book in a certain way.

[00:39:07] I've heard authors say that they don't like using software because your book ends up looking like so many other books and readers don't like that. But to be honest, I don't think we just even notice that. A lot of the time, readers have not conscious even of design and formatting, unless it doesn't work or unless it is calling attention to itself for all the wrong reasons. I don't think readers tend to notice it. So I wouldn't let that be a worry, myself.

[00:39:36] So if you're a novelist, if you're a non-fiction writer who's doing a straight textbook, I really would recommend that you wrap your head around one of the many good formatting solutions that are out there, and you save yourself a ton of money. But more than that, you get the thing that the indy author loves, which is control. So if you pay a formatter or if you pay a typesetter for your print book, then that's it. You get the files; they have set up the files. You often don't know what tool they use to do it, and if you need to change anything, you have to go back and ask for it again. And you have to pay. And it's not just the money. It's also the inconvenience.

[00:40:18] Whereas if you have done the formatting yourself using one of these tools, then you just hop in and make your change. So if you find a typo or something, that doesn't require you to be sending files off to somebody else to get them to do and send it back, which is work they don't even want to be doing really. And I think that's our core recommendation really.

[00:40:37] But, if it's a specialist book, then it's going to need specialist treatment. And also, we have members who just love making really beautiful books, you know, so the interior is extremely important to them, and they want all the individual elements, and they take a real interest in making the book, which is very much part of their creation process. If that's you, then that's a different thing.

[00:41:05] Matty: When I weigh the satisfaction, I would get out of doing that with the time and effort, I choose not to do it, but I can understand why people would want to make that effort for a print book. But for an ebook, it just seems like trying to do it yourself. I don't know. I remember listening to a cooking show once and they said that they had tried to make Triscuits. I'm like, why would you try to make Triscuits? Like, just buy Triscuits. They're pretty much perfect the way they are. You don't need designer Triscuits.

[00:41:33] And I think of eBooks the same way. It's going to look different anyway, right? It's not like you do an ebook and then it's beautiful and that's how every reader is going to see it. No, it's going to be different if they're on a phone or an iPad or a Kindle or a Nook or how big they've made the font or which font they've selected. So I imagine there are people who are focused on that for the print book but are willing to let it go for the ebook. Or are they also spending that much time on the ebook as well?

[00:41:57] Orna: Again, depends. So you're absolutely right I think again, when it comes to a fairly straightforward book, but if you're a children's author, for example, you will take a lot of interest, more and more. It wasn't an issue for a long time, but now kids grow up, you know, they're born with iPads in their hand. So you may find yourself spending just as much time on the ebook design and making sure as much as possible that it works the way you want it to work. And so on.

[00:42:30] So on there is fixed format E books also, which people are sometimes creating. So it does depend. There are certain kinds of textbooks that are heavily illustrated that people will take a lot of trouble on the ebook, just as much as own on the print book. And I think that's something we're seeing more and more as technology gets better and better, and the reading technology, I mean, more than the production technology. As it improves, then the same sort of care that's going into print books is now going into e-books.

[00:43:08] Matty: One of the other benefits that I see of a program like Vellum and many others I'm sure are that you press a button and you get all the different types of files you need so that you get an epub, you can get the files that depending on the metadata you've entered are specific to upload to Amazon, specific upload to Barnes and Noble, Google Play, all the different platforms. So that, for example, if you get to the end of an e-book and someone clicks on a link to get the next in the series they're being sent to the appropriate store, not some store they want to have nothing to do with.

[00:43:39] And one of those was always mobi files. So can you talk a little bit about, the brief history of mobi files and what the status of mobi files is today and how they're used?

[00:43:48] Orna: Yeah. I think mobi is probably on the way out. So it's not something to worry about. And new authors, if you haven't heard about it before, don't worry. And so mobi was, it was Amazon's proprietorial format, not was, it is, it's still very live. Don't get me wrong, it's still there, but you had to have mobi files for publishing on Kindle for some years and you no longer do, you can publish on Kindle using an epub file.

[00:44:21] So mobi is, it's still in existence, but it's not something we need to worry about. And I think epub has become the standard electronic file and it’s cross-referrable. As you rightly say, Vellum provides the different ones for the different stores, but in theory an epub file travels across all the different requirements across the web. And if you can create an epub file now, you should pretty much be able to go anywhere with that file. and see it uploaded, and see it uploaded well.

[00:44:57] Matty:

[00:44:57] The one area where I find I still need mobis is when I'm sending in like an emailing copy to someone who's using a Kindle and they need to sideload it. Is that still a thing or is that kind of an old-fashioned issue to be worrying about?

[00:45:12] Orna: Well, it is a thing because lots of people have Kindles forever. Kindle isn't like similar technology that's changed after a year and which will remain nameless, you know, that you upgrade all the time. The Kindle readers, and readers generally, they come very attached to their reader. Kobo as well. You know, whatever your reader is, you become very attached to it, and you see they're very simple technology, so they don't tend to break. And so readers whose Kindle can only read mobi need that mobi file.

[00:45:46] Matty: The last thing that I wanted to talk about, well, actually there may be two more things. There are two more things. The next to the last thing I wanted to talk about was large print. So I know when I first started using an e-reader, I thought, oh, well, this is perfect. You know, the people who used to have to rely on the small percentage of books that ended up being offered in large print now are going to go to Kindle. That's so nice for them. And then, via our mutual friend, Joanna Penn, I was hearing that she was having good luck with a large print, and I decided to do that too, because the time investment and the money investment was fairly small. I just had to go back to my cover designer and ask for a large print version of the book. And I had to generate a large print interior that using Vellum. Is large print something that you continue to see being worth authors investing their time in?

[00:46:36] Orna: Yes. It's like so many things, when something new comes along and people think that's the death of an old thing. And we generally seems to happen as it sits in beside what was already there. And people don't move, and readers particularly are quite a conservative bunch. They're not quick to, some are, but there's a great big tranche of readers who don't read on ebook and don't ever intend to. So large print, I think like you, I completely agree, it's very little extra investment to create a large print edition, to create a hardback edition, using Vellum and all the other tools.

[00:47:16] So why wouldn't you? If there are readers out there who only like to read in large print or only can read in large print, so it's an accessibility issue as well, you're providing books for readers who can only read large print. They can't read small print. Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you do that? We are seeing people doing really well with their large print books. Yeah.

[00:47:39] Matty: You had mentioned the other thing that I wanted to talk about, which was hardcover. So it's something that I keep considering. And the times that I've seen illustrations of other people who have gotten hard cover books, it hasn't been appealing to me because it's been just the cover printed on the cover, and it looks like a textbook to me. And it's like unpleasant flashbacks to grade school or junior high textbooks. But I understand that you can also get a dust jacket. I'm just curious as to your opinion on where hard covers are going. Is it worth it?

[00:48:16] Orna: Again, I think it is worth it. I think those kinds of things that you had, I think that's more a US thing, by the way, it must be something to do with US textbooks. I think it's more US associations outside of America. But the other thing is don't assume because you feel that way, that the reader feels that way.

[00:48:36] And again, it isn't a lot of money. It's not a lot of extra investment. And the thing about hardbacks is there isn't a rush to buy hardbacks in the sense that they generally cost more money and so on. But it can be really nice and showcase the thing. At some people accountably do well in hardback. So providing it as we're so lucky to have these print on demand tools that we can for very little, I mean, this sort of stuff used to cost thousands. You would have to that your minimum investment would be $2,000 to $3,000. And now that will be for a tiny book and then you had the whole distribution headache. We don't have any of that.

[00:49:20] Matty: Well, this is sort of a preview because our next episode is going to be on production, and we might be able to get into a little bit about where bookstores and libraries like to buy their books from and where they don't like to buy their books from.

[00:49:35] So Orna, thank you so much for that perspective on design. please let the listeners know where they could go to find out more about you and your work online.

[00:49:42] Orna: Sure. So I'm Orna Ross. I'm at OrnaRoss.com. And I'm also director of The Alliance of Independent Authors and that's an association for self-publishing writers and you'd find us at AllianceIndependentAuthors.org.

[00:50:00] Matty: Great. Thank you so much. And everyone should stay tuned for the next episode where we will be talking about production. Thank you, Orna.

[00:50:07] Orna: Thank you.

Episode 101 - The First Process of Publishing: Editorial with Orna Ross

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In this week's episode of The Indy Author Podcast, Orna Ross of the Alliance of Independent Authors joins me for the first of a series of seven episodes devoted to the Seven Processes of Publishing. This week the focus is on Editorial. We talk about the different stages of editing, and the importance of distinguishing the deepening and development process from the correction and clarification process. We discuss how you can gain distance from your work by experiencing it in a different time, place, or format. We discuss the different types of professional editing, and how to balance your opinion of your work with the opinions of others.

Orna Ross is the founder and head of the Alliance of Independent Authors, a non-profit professional business membership organization for self-publishing authors. ALLi provides trusted advice, supportive guidance, and a range of resources, within a welcoming community of authors and advisors.

Episode Links

Personal Update

Alliance of Independent Authors SelfPubCon

Interview

https://www.ornaross.com/

https://www.allianceindependentauthors.org/

150 Self-Publishing Questions Answered: ALLi’s Writing, Publishing, & Book Marketing Tips for Authors and Poets (Publishing Guides for Indie Authors 5)

Episode 088 - How to Receive and Give Critique with Tiffany Yates Martin

Transcript

[00:00:00] Matty: We're here for the first of our series of the seven processes of publishing. So, hello, Orna for rejoining us on The Indy Author Podcast!

[00:00:08] Orna: Hi Matty, delighted to be here, for this big project.

[00:00:12] Matty: Yeah, I'm delighted to have you back. And today in this first episode, we are going to be talking about the editorial process, but I thought that because ALLi doesn't consider the writing part specific to the seven processes of publishing, that's pre publishing, but I didn't want to overlook the writing portion. So obviously we could do another seven episodes on writing, but I thought just to ease us into the editorial discussion, are there any parts of the writing process that you think are especially important to prepare yourself and your manuscript best for the publishing processes that follow?

[00:00:51] Orna: Yeah. Sure, so obviously writing is the most important thing. By not including it in the publishing process is not in any way to say that it is a stage to be rushed or anything like that. On the contrary. So, I mean, officially the publishing process begins when you bring in the professional editors. But obviously writing still goes on after that, and we talk about that in a few moments, when we look at the formal editorial process, if you like. But it's really important to prepare your manuscript really, really well when you're a self-publishing writer. So it's always important, to do the very best you can.

[00:01:34] So, there are seven stages as you so rightly said to the writing process itself. And those end stages of the process for a self-publishing writer are more intense, I think, because you are going to be publishing your own work and that in a sense means that you have to get to a higher degree of perfection before somebody else sees it.

[00:01:59] So very often when you're submitting to traditional publishing, there is a whole series of sending it out, getting feedback, getting it back, getting it rejected, and if you're lucky, in the rejections, people will pick out some aspects. Or even if they don't, very often when it comes back, you'll read it again and you'll think, okay, I'll polish it up another bit before I send it out again. So very often there's self-editing processes going on in the submission. When you know you're going to publish yourself, you can rush things. I think that's the main thing I would like to say is, take it easy at the end.

[00:02:36] So after your first draft there at least two other drafts that you need to do. The first one is the deepening draft and it's best done when you've completed a first draft to your own satisfaction. It's best to put it away for a while and get some distance and then do a deepening draft.

[00:02:55] And the deepening draft is an elaboration. The first draft is for you to see what's there, explain it to yourself. The second, the deepening draft is about explaining it to everybody else. And so you identify gaps. And I think the most useful thing to do in this draft is to look at bits that you really like, pick out their shining qualities and then try to bring those qualities to the bits that you're not so happy with. So it's an elevation process, really.

[00:03:22] And so I always recommend that people go through, they begin after the first draft, after they rested the first draft, they begin by picking out the bits you like. Our inner critic is so alive that the first thing we want to do is correct, but actually strengthening your strengths is better, is equally important, but I actually think it's more important. You could argue that it's equally important, but for me, I think it's more important to recognize your strengths and to develop those and augment the awesome. This is how I like to think of it.

[00:03:56] And then the next draft is clearing the crap, so the correction draft then comes afterwards, the fixing up. And there's a lot of information and advice there about the correction, but not so much about strengthening what's good. And all of us as writers, we have strengths and weaknesses, and it really does help us to develop our craft and to recognize which aspects we are good at and which ones we need more support in. So the deepening draft, then the editing, the self-editing and clarification draft, and then there's all the finishing actions that we need to take to wrap it up as it were.

[00:04:39] And then I think the other thing that really is good to do before it goes to a professional editor is to get some form of beta reading done, whereby you send it out to some trusted people who know what they're talking about. You could give it to your family and friends, and you will get feedback there, that's fine, if you want to, if you have kind of family and friends that want to read it or will finish it or whatever. I don't. But if you do, great.

[00:05:05] I know that for a lot of people, they have family members kind of the first reader and their ideal reader. That's great if you have that. But go beyond that. Go to people who actually have some expertise, either who read a lot in your genre, or who actually are writers themselves in your genre or have worked as editors. The more they know about your specific kind of book, the more useful their feedback can be.

[00:05:30] So, send it out to I would say at least five trusted others and get some feedback. And as always with feedback, read it, absorb it, and see what makes sense to you. If a few people are saying the same thing, it's usually something to take note of and make some changes accordingly.

[00:05:49] They may suggest ideas for what you should do. You may accept that idea straight up, but more often what you'll do is say, I don't love the solution, but I do see the problem and then get stuck in there and solving it in your own way. And then you should be ready for a professional edit.

[00:06:08] Matty: I felt that one thing that I've learned over time is among my pool of people, my pre edit readers, my beta readers, I've started to realize what their focus is, what the focus of each of them is. So I have one beta reader who is great at the big picture, who can step back and say, I really felt like about a third of the way through there needed to be something else big that happened in order to sustain me through the following chapters. And so I'm always sure to give that person an early copy.

[00:06:40] And then I had the reader that's, more, I found a typo on page 75, and so I give that person later. So I think it's also important to adjust when you involve each of the readers at the point when their strengths and reading are going to do you the most good. Because it doesn't really help me to find the typos when I'm still trying to figure out the plot. And it doesn't really help me to find out a great plot idea when I'm at the end and it would be harder to adjust.

[00:07:05] Orna: Terrific tip. Yeah, really good. And I mean, this is great when you establish a team, when you've done more than one book, when you have a few books under your belt, and you get used to working with the same people. Yeah, it's fantastic when that happens, and you have dedicated readers. Because the relationship improves on their ability to read your work and to understand what you're trying to do, all of that improves as the relationship becomes more long-term so, yeah, that's really great.

[00:07:34] Matty: I always think it's interesting to hear people talk about writing because I'm almost always astounded, I'll hear authors whose work I love talk about it, and I just want to say, seriously, you can create a book doing that? I mean, the thing that strikes me every time is, I've interviewed a lot of crime fiction and thriller authors on the podcast and almost all of them are of the, and that I was so surprised when I found out who the murderer was family. And I think how can you possibly do that?

[00:08:03] And for me, I've always found that doing this full-time now and needing to be as efficient as I can, the more I outlined ahead of time, the fewer unproductive paths I went through, and that worked pretty well until the book that I'm trying to finish for the editor now. And so this is my, I guess, eighth or ninth novel. And I felt like it was getting more and more efficient by sort of going through and doing a very high level, you know, the whole story in 10,000 words, and then fleshing it out a little more. Now it's the whole story in 30,000 words and doing passes through it.

[00:08:41] But this time I feel like I stretched it out too long and now I'm really struggling to retain my interest in what is probably the sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, I don't even know any more, pass through it. So I think it's just something that people have to keep an eye on and not get locked in and realize that something might've worked for three books and maybe not so much anymore and it's time to rethink.

[00:09:04] Orna: It's funny, isn't it? The way writing goes like that, and I think that kind of thing happens before leveling up. So usually a change in your process, a change in your way of doing things is a breakthrough at the craft level. It's usually my experience there's something there that's about to change and be different. So it's actually quite an exciting time. But finding your way through to a whole new way of doing things, it can feel quite painful actually, because you can feel a bit lost and confused until it rights itself.

[00:09:38] Matty: And I think the beta readers can play a great role in that, especially if they're trusted colleagues, but also generally fans of your work, because you can get done with the almost final draft and think, oh my God, this is so boring, who would want to read it? And then give it to people, and you can, it's very therapeutic to hear, as you said, you know, what you're good at.

[00:10:00] Orna: Yeah, and they see things you didn't see. And Michael La Ronn, I think I may have said this the last time I was on your podcast, but it really struck me and I'm always quoting him. Michael La Ronn is one of the ALLi team here. Novelist and nonfiction writer and poetry, he writes across the three genres, and he has a saying that the worst judge of a book is its author.

[00:10:24] Just forget it. If you're bored it does not mean somebody else is bored, if you think it's fantastic, it does not mean somebody else, or even you tomorrow, are going to think it's fantastic. Your opinion really isn't important at all. Just keep on moving through the process.

[00:10:41] Matty: Yeah. It's what the readers think that really counts in the end.

[00:10:45] Orna: Sure. And even then, what's it going to be? Some of them are going to like it and some of them aren't going to like it, and what do you even do with that except do the next book? So it is constantly that kind of keeping your eye on what needs to be done next rather than getting too lost. And I see this with new writers, I suppose I'm speaking particularly to people who may be listening who are on their first book, because I do see this a lot with people who are starting out. But there's great energy for the first draft and even a second or third pass through. But then there could be a reluctance to finish and get on with it, as it were, and you can get stuck in the writing and rewriting.

[00:11:30] And I'm not suggesting that's what's happening here with you at all because you're very experienced, that's different. But there can be a fear about putting your book out for the first time and you can get caught in a perfectionism that's not really improving it very much. You're just going round and round in circles really, and anything, any major improvements you're going to make has been done. There's nothing else for you to do. And the most useful thing for you as a writer is actually to get it up, get it out there, publish it, get some readers, get their feedback, get going on book number two. It's going to be much better for your development as a writer than doing another pass.

[00:12:07] Matty: Yeah. And I also liked the advice about letting it sit for a while because you can, if you're just slogging away, slogging away, slogging away, at some point, you're not going to have any new ideas. And I know you and Michael, although I think you have different recommendations for the duration of time to let it sit, but both have that common recommendation about letting it sit for some time.

[00:12:27] Orna: Yes. I suggest much longer than he does. You know, he had a heart attack when I was saying, if you can, leave it for a year and we'll go away and work on something else. But of course, Michael doesn't take Michael anything like that, it takes me a year to put a book together. It doesn't take him anything like that. So, I do think it's very useful to go away and work on something else and come back because we get so closed to the work, particularly, if we've been drafting and redrafting and you just don't see it clearly. And working on something else actually improves you craft a little bit, so when you come back, you're a bit better than you were when you were there previously. But it's really, you want enough distance to approach it like a reader rather than the person who authored it.

[00:13:17] Matty: It is fun sometimes, and I think I had this conversation with someone on the podcast fairly recently about going back. Of course, if you ever reread something you've put out before, like if you're preparing for a reading or something like that, and of course you're going to see things you want to fix, but then every once in a while, you do come across the things that are like, whoa, that's pretty good. I'm pretty proud of it. So that's fun too.

[00:13:44] So let's assume we've taken all these steps, we're at the point where it's as good as we and our beta readers can make it, and now we're looking at the professional edit. So talk a little bit about the different types of professional edits that are out there and what the differences are among them.

[00:13:59] Orna: Yeah. So, I mean, I think we touched on it a little bit already. I think of them as three. People break them down in different ways. So the way in which we break them down is threefold.

[00:14:09] So you've got the big picture and editor who looks at the work as a whole. And there's all sorts of names for these different editors, so it can be a bit confusing at first when you come to it, because the UK terms and the US terms can be a bit different and then the people have different terms for it. But essentially, we're looking at the development of the novel. So, the book could be nonfiction book either that we're talking about or poetry books.

[00:14:35] So we're looking at the book as a whole, its structure and if it is fiction, whether the characterization is consistent, consistency generally, repetition. Repetition of effect at this level, at the developmental level, so you have, a tendency for revelations to come in the same sort of way each time it happens, for example. And we all have favorite tics and things, that we don't even know that we have.

[00:15:04] This is the big picture person. And, really, really, the most important editing for a first book, for new writers who are publishing for the first time. It's expensive and a lot of writers resist actually forking out for this kind of work, but I can't stress how important it is and how much to view it not just as a publishing expense, which it is, but to view it as an investment in your writing craft.

[00:15:39] So lots of authors go off and do MFAs, MAs in creative writing. Honestly, the investment in a good developmental edit of a book that you've already done is a better investment in terms of learning what you need to learn to progress you to the next level. I'm not saying you shouldn't do MFAs or MAs, but I'm just saying if you have to choose between one or the other, I know which one I think is more important. It's just so important to begin to understand a book at that level, at that big picture level, it really develops your craft as a writer.

[00:16:17] The next level then I think of as being on the kind of the paragraph and sentence level. It's called copy editing, and again, there are lots of different terms for it. But the editor here is looking more at the actual structure of your sentences and your paragraphs, your chapters, but particularly how you use words, making sure that grammar is okay, again, calling repetitions, smaller kinds of repetitions, the repetitions of words or phrases that you tend to overuse, all that kind of thing.

[00:16:52] And then the third and final stage is proofreading and that's at the word level where things are being corrected, proofreading, typos, and again, grammatical infelicities or misspellings or all of that.

[00:17:08] So I think the overall thing to say about the three kinds of editing is language is a very complex substance. If you're an artist who is working with mud or something, it's different. Language is very, very complex and it's very detailed, and we need professional help to see how we're using it. Our brain when we look at our own work goes into a sort of a blur zone. Working with editorial professionals really helps us to sharpen our awareness of language and how we use it generally, as well as obviously specifically improving that particular book so the reader can enjoy it. So all of this is about making what was in your head as clear, as crystal clear as possible for the reader to understand it.

[00:18:00] Matty: I had a question, this is going to be a little selfish because this is the situation, I find myself in now, but I think this is probably a scenario that other people share as well. But basically, I'm budgeting for one edit, and I have an editor that I've worked with on several books and in general, the copy-editing aspect isn't that intensive. And in fact, in some cases I've just told him it's generally cases where I'm trying to favor grammatical correctness over ease of reading in a genre type fiction book. And, I've even said to him, just highlight the parts that I need to work on because I can fix that myself. What I need is more of the big picture, more of the developmental edit.

[00:18:40] And so, as an example, in one of the books that he edited, there was a storyline that I had wrapped up at the end, but he was saying, this is supposed to be more of a thriller. You've wrapped it up, but it could be wrapped up much more excitingly. And so we had a conversation about sort of weighing adding some excitement with plausibility and how to balance that, so it was satisfying but also plausible. And so that's always what I'm looking for from my editor. And then for the proofread, I have some beta readers who are excellent proofreaders. So I generally just give them the final copy to get the proofread done.

[00:19:16] But the situation I'm in now is that my book is eventually going to be, let's say, 80, 85,000 words. And I probably have about 70,000 words of fairly final copy. So in a way, I want to give it to him as-is because if he says, oh, this whole subplot is just not working at all. I don't really want to have polished it up, taking the time to polish it up before I give it to him. So there's always this balance between giving them as much as possible so you get that professional perspective, but not so much that you've overworked something. Do you have any advice on that front?

[00:19:54] Orna: Yeah, I do. I know exactly what you're talking about because you can waste our other, as well as money, you can waste our most valuable resource, which is time. And if you're going to lose big chunks, particularly in the developmental process, you don't want to have polished it too finely. And this is what I find again happens a lot with beginner writers and stuff, they can spend a lot of time polishing the small stuff way too soon, long before the other stuff has been organized.

[00:20:24] So, yeah, I mean, the other thing that your question really highlights, and I think it's so important to say this is, this is not linear, and this is never straightforward. So it's always a little bit messy and it's always a balancing of different needs and we don't have infinite resources, time or money, for this edit, and so we're always balancing. And so, yes, I think if what we're asking for is a developmental edit, then there's not a lot of point in getting very stuck in certainly at the proofreading level.

[00:20:57] The problem with not doing it well enough at the copy edit level is that there can be a lack of clarity. So sometimes if the words are loose it's because something else is loose. And so while we do want to protect our time and protect our money and so on, sometimes it's nothing for it except to get stuck in. And I know this is a really unsatisfactory answer because the answer is, as it so often is with publishing and indeed with writing, is it depends.

[00:21:28] And really you are the best judge. If you feel that giving it to him as it is, you have the skills to do the copyedit when the time is right and that it is written well enough for him to be clear about what happens there, because sometimes if we haven't done, if we haven't gotten in there at the paragraph level, it's blurry. It's not clear what you're trying to achieve. It's not clear what you're saying, for example, about a character. Or your setup might be very clear in your own mind, but because you haven't done the work at word level, it's not actually that clear to the reader what's going on there.

[00:22:07] So as long as you don't have that kind of thing happening, as long as there's clarity there, then particularly if you feel there will be recommendations about, you know, that needs to be more exciting and you’re going to have to add in text, remove bodies of text, then yes, I think you could go ahead and give it in what might be a rawer state than you ever have before.

[00:22:33] Matty: It's interesting too, that you had mentioned earlier that even the terminology that's used for these different kinds of edits is different, and so when people are going out to look for an editor, there's not a guarantee that their expectation when they say "developmental edit" or "copy edit" or well, I think "proofread" people probably have a common understanding, but developmental editor, copy editor, other terms for that, that the terminology they're using is the same as the professional they're speaking with. Are there any recommendations you have for people to make sure that the author and the editor have a common understanding of what the expectation is?

[00:23:07] Orna: Yes. You're absolutely right and the other thing that comes in here that also adds to this challenge for the author who's seeking the best possible professional, is that some editors offer different kinds of editing, but they really are best at one type than they are they're better at than. Sometimes the testimonials on their website are general sorts of glowing testimonials, but you're not necessarily getting the full picture because obviously their website is there to sell their services and that's 100% the way it should be from their perspective.

[00:23:42] So I recommend to treat the hiring of an editor like you treat taking on a spouse for life. You know, it's a really huge decision. Do not rush it. Really do your research. So when you get to the point, first of all, have a look around and create a list of possible editors for your work. And then when you're seriously considering somebody, really investigate that person, first of all, in dialogue with them, so ask lots of questions and see what kind of answers you get. If there's somebody that does samples, get a sample, so you see what's there. Some editors don't do that. Lots do.

[00:24:27] And even if you feel this is the right editor for me, go through that process, do take your time. Look at the testimonials on their website. And then contact the authors. Ask the author what kind of edit they did, what they most valued about it, ask them about their weaker points. You know, we feel very grateful to our editors because they really do improve our books. They are the great unsung heroes of the publishing industry. They are just amazing, and I love the fact that indy authors now are really bringing their editors to the forefront, foregrounding them in their acknowledgements and so on, which didn't always happen in the past, they were very invisible. So I think that this is all marvelous.

[00:25:09] But having said that, every professional is good at some things and not so good at others. So have that discussion with the authors on the website, or if you come across an editor who's tying in to an author's book and you think they would be right for you. So in other words, do your research. Really don't take somebody on until you've answered a lot of questions up front because by the time you get the service, it is too late.

[00:25:37] And also recognize that even with all of that, it may be that you'll end up with an editor that isn't perfectly right for you. And also that sometimes they're right for the first book and the second book, but then not so much after that. So don't be afraid to change your editor, and if you are changing, you'll probably go through the same process again.

[00:25:59] Don't take your friend's recommendation, my editor is great. Sure, they probably are great for them, and they might be great for you, but do not take that for granted. They may not be at all.

[00:26:14] Ideally, you should be working with an editor who's experienced in your genre. There are trope and particularly some genres have very strong tropes that you need to be following and your editor can really help you with that kind of thing if they're experienced in that genre. If they're not, they can't, they won't know, so that's important.

[00:26:35] Matty: I can speak to that from an editorial point of view because I made a brief foray into providing editing services. And the manuscript that was brought to me was a fantasy book, which I not only don't write, but I don't read. And I wasn't sure about it. So we did a sample edit, and in this case, I charged, it was like $50 for 5,000 words or something like that. And I made some comments, and I stand by the comments I made, but I didn't have that pool of knowledge to be able to say, if you think about how so-and-so handled it in such and such, whereas in more like the crime, fiction, mystery, suspense genre, if I were having that conversation, I could have a conversation that would be meaningful for the client. So we both agreed that we weren't going to go ahead. We were both happy with the decision not to go ahead with that. But it did make me realize the importance of having someone who's familiar with your genre, so you're all speaking the same language. Also the idea of paying for a sample edit I think is well worth it.

[00:27:36] Orna: I do too, because even though you guys didn't decide to go ahead, I'm sure she got value from that experience. And you did too. So, I think that's the thing about writing and editing and the relationship and the relationships indeed, because over time you will have had relationships with lots of different editors, is that it is an unfolding and that is a learning. And every single book, every project is an opportunity, is a learning opportunity and I think that is the way to approach the editing process, to open yourself wide up as an author to this being a learning process.

[00:28:12] And, again, I know after you've done it a few times, this becomes much easier. At the beginning, our very first book, our baby, which has been pulled up from the bowels of our toes. Bad biology there, but you know what I mean? And we're so emotionally attached, and it can be difficult to get any sort of editorial response. It can be difficult to take it in the right way.

[00:28:41] So a lot of self-care, I think, when you're going into your first dealings with a professional editor. Again, depending on the editor, some are super sensitive and say all the right things, and some writers say, I don't need you to say all that, give me the hard stuff, you know. And then other writers, particularly at the beginning, no matter how sensitively it's couched, it hurts at some level. And you’ve got to know yourself and if you are that kind of person, you have to take time and care of yourself in that process, or you won't get beyond it.

[00:29:16] And you can trust that after you've done this once or twice, it stops hurting, actually. And you get to the point, you cannot wait for your editor's feedback, and you want it to be as tough, for them to really go there, that's what you actually want. That can be impossible to imagine when you're starting out, but it totally does get to that. So yeah, look after yourself in the editing process, if you're a sensitive and particularly if it's your first book.

[00:30:15] Matty: There's a great episode I'd like to refer people to, which is Episode 88, which was "How to Receive and Give Critique with Tiffany Yates Martin." And one of the things we talked about was the idea that an editor, or a reader for that matter, their comments are about their reaction to your book, not about you. And so if you can look at an editor's input and say, oh, it's interesting that they thought this character wasn't well-developed when I felt he was a fully fleshed out person. Not, I can't believe that they didn't think I did a good job developing this character. If you can think of it as almost like market research. It's a professional market research of your book on what their experience was while they were reading it. That could help soothe the sting a little bit.

[00:30:57] Orna: Yeah. Any tricks, anything you can do that helps you through that at the beginning, especially. And for me it is wearing that learner's hat and really trying to open your heart as well as your mind to what's being said. Because the editors sometimes may slightly miss the mark. But the fact that they've raised something nearly always means it's worth your attention, to turn your attention to whatever it is they've raised.

[00:31:28] And sometimes we take the editorial report, take it away and don't go back to the editor. But most editors will be very open to you saying, I saw it this way. You see it that way. Could we go a little bit more deeply into this? I mean, they won't do that if you're doing it for 25 things, but if you've got a genuine query about something and you don't quite get what they're saying, or you really feel they got it wrong and you'd like to tease it out with them a little bit, most editors are very open to that.

[00:32:05] Matty: I had an example of that with Ann Kinnear 4, which was "A Furnace for Your Foe," and it takes place on Mount Desert Island. And my editor was questioning, he was saying, it's quite a coincidence that this group of people just happens to already know this group of people. And my position was, it's a small community, especially off season, the population is like 10,000 and these are both people who are running in the fancy upper echelons of that society. So it would be actually weird if they didn't know each other. But what I took from that is I haven't set up the context for people to understand that it's a small, insular community. You know, it wasn't that that was the wrong decision for me to make. It was that I hadn't set it up effectively for the reader. So I think that's a good example of what you're talking about.

[00:32:51] Orna: It's a really good example. And it's those things we don't know we don't know. We take it for granted that it's there because it's so much in our head, we don't realize that we failed to mention it or failed to develop it enough. Brilliant example.

[00:33:06] Matty: I did have a question. Earlier you were saying that sometimes the person who is an editor for a couple of books becomes not the right editor for subsequent books. And if you're in a situation where you're writing a series and you've decided to switch editors, what's the best way to ensure that the new editor is sufficiently familiar with the previous books that they can make the transition and not have the effect be jarring? You know, you want it to be a seamless transition for you and your readers. How can you enable an editor to do that?

[00:33:36] Orna: Yes. A series, it's tricky. So I will preface it by saying that ideally, same editor from beginning to end of series. That is the ideal and that happens most of the time. But there are all sorts of reasons why that might not happen, and it doesn't happen sometimes. So it might be that the relationship just deteriorates. It might be that your editor decides to stop editing and wants to become a skydiver. There are all sorts of reasons. So the thing is, if you are asking somebody to pick up books three or four or five of the series, then they need to read book 1, 2, 3, and 4. And that may very well end up costing you money. Because ideally, they should have a good lead in and full understanding. And the best way for them to have full understanding is to read the full books.

[00:34:30] And some authors think that if they want the business, they should read the books. Well, the better the editor is, the less likely that's going to happen. So it's going to cost you, probably to switch editor mid run. You can brief them very well, and probably both is ideal. You should give them a good indication of where everything came from before the book that they're receiving now and where you intended to go if you know that, which you probably do, where things are going to go in subsequent books.

[00:35:01] So in short, it's a headache. It's a headache to switch mid series. And if you have to do it, it's like everything in life, preparation cuts out lots of problems down the road. So the more you can actually give your editor to prepare them for the job of it, picking up the series, the better. Yeah, so there isn't really an easy answer for that.

[00:35:27] Matty: One idea I thought was good, and I think this came from the "150 Self-Publishing Questions Answered," was basically hiring them as if they were doing a proofread. You know, if you have to come up with a way to quantify the value of them reading through a series, that that would be one approach. I mean, hopefully they don't actually find a bunch of typos, but I would think they would be sort of reading at a speed and depth that would be equivalent to proofreading, because proofreaders probably aren't assessing plot structure. They're breezing along looking for the missing comma. And that's what you need your editor to do. Is that something that seems like a reasonable way if you do find you need to pay for a read of those earlier books?

[00:36:12] Orna: Absolutely. I mean, you're not paying for them to developmentally edit those books. Absolutely not. And you may find that they may not even charge you the full cost of a proofread for all of those.

[00:36:24] You might want to get them to do a proofread while they're there, because every book, you can find millions of typos. No book can be over edited, really. Books just stop because everybody has had enough of them and doesn't want to invest any more time and energy into them. And it's time to move on to the next one. But every book's improvable no matter how good it is. So, yeah, it's a good way to approach this.

[00:36:49] Matty: One thing I have found is that there are two times when I want my book to be proofread. One is right before I upload it to the platforms. And one way I've done that, and I think an economical way, is to send a note out to writers' groups I belong to and say, for the first one or two people who get in touch with me, I will give you a pre-publication copy of the book, ebook or PDF or whatever, and I'll pay you a $5 bounty per typo up to $50. And there's always a couple of people who are interested in doing that and I always pay them $50. Don't tell, but I always pay them $50 regardless of how many typos they find.

[00:37:28] And then the other time I really want somebody to take another look at it is if I ever have my book open in Vellum, for example, when I was proofing, proof listening, I guess you'd call it, the audio book I had Vellum open and every once in a while, I'd see a missing comma or I'd see I use the word evidently too many times or whatever, and I could just make it right there in Vellum. So it was ready to generate an updated version. But my fear is always that I do something in the process, I do an unintentional cut and paste or something like that. And so after I've done that kind of work, I send a note out to a private Facebook group and say, I'll give a free copy of the book and all you have to do is read it and tell me if there's like an inexplicably chunk of text right in the middle of a chapter that makes no sense with the surrounding texts. And so those are some economical ways people can get some editorial help, right at the end when it's just the tiny cleanup.

[00:38:24] Orna: That's fantastic. That's really, really, really nice. And I know what you mean about introducing errors. I'm terrible. If I crack open that file again, I'm off again because I actually love editing. That's the part of writing that I enjoy the most. And yeah, introduce a whole new error, then I need a whole new proofread. Don't do what I do.

[00:38:48] Matty: So the last thing I wanted to ask about with regard to editorial is that the "150 Self-publishing Questions Answered" has some great suggestions about how you can gain distance from your work. How do you gain that kind of distance, and at what point do you recommend doing that?

[00:39:07] Orna: Obviously, there's just leaving time, which we discussed earlier. There is the text to speech function, which you can play and hear. I think that's probably one of the most useful, when you get this mechanical auto robotic voice reading the text and it picks up on your mistakes. That's a really good one.

[00:39:29] Matty: Another one was the idea of editing actually in a different location.

[00:39:35] Orna: Yes. Michael does that, I think. He has a writing place and an editing place. Yeah. Any trick you can think of. Who was telling me they read backwards when it comes to proofreading? Yeah. They go backwards through the sentences, so they're just reading words, not meaning.

[00:39:51] Matty: That sounds awful. More power to them if they can do it.

[00:39:57] Orna: All of this is awful. And one of the things I really liked for me, I only did it briefly and I won't do it ongoing for other reasons, I just find it exhausting and it's not the best use of my time, but I did find narrating my own audio was fantastic in terms of picking up the errors. So I think definitely getting it into a different format is great.

[00:40:23] Another thing is to really pump up the text size so that you're looking at it in 24 point or something. Anything where you just break that habit of the brain, which is to skim right over the mistakes. It'll be interesting. I'm sure your listeners will probably have other ideas.

[00:40:43] Matty: I have a friend who uploads her books to KDP Print and then gets a print proof. And not just for the final proofread either, but she can read through that and then she says she can pick up plot issues and things like that that you would never otherwise, because she is being able to read it as a reader.

[00:41:02] Orna: I always do my editing on hardcopy. I think that's just my age. I grew up with typewriters and cut and paste meaning actually cutting the pages up and sticking them back together. So I always do my editing and I look forward to printing it off. And since we've had POD, it's just been fantastic to actually get it looking like a book rather than it typewritten form.

[00:41:27] Matty: And that's probably cheaper. I'm guessing that ordering an author proof of a book from KDP, for example, maybe the same as true on IngramSpark, is cheaper than the toner you'd spend.

[00:41:40] Orna: It probably is. It's certainly there's little or no difference. It's just that experience of reading it as a book really helps to for the stuff to jump out.

[00:41:56] Matty: I did hear an author interview, and I'm not sure I'm getting this right, so I won't say who the author was just in case I'm conveying this incorrectly, but she either retyped or rewrote, hand wrote her book. Like when she thought she was done, she reentered it or rewrote it. And she said, yeah, I'd never do that again. But it did help her. I think she was just assessing the cost / benefit ratio and decided it didn't help her that much. But she said she did catch things that she fixed in the final manuscript.

[00:42:28] Orna: Did she have a print version beside her, and then she was retyping it?

[00:42:32] Matty: I believe so. Yeah.

[00:42:34] Orna: Yeah. Yeah, we can do these things. With all this technology that helps us to go faster, faster, faster. But the thing about editing is it's slower, slower, slower. And I think that's the thing, is to edit well, you've got to change your pace and you've got to change your push. And in the good old days, the bad old days that I was talking about a minute ago, that's what you have to do. You cut it up. You changed it. You did your corrections in pen, and then you typed it up again and then you did it again and again, until you were happy with it. And that's how loads of people wrote loads of books back in the day.

[00:43:15] So it can be done. I suppose the point I'm trying to make is whatever gets you to pay the right level of attention and to slow down and really see the thing as a separate thing from the original creation, then just do it.

[00:43:33] Matty: Yep. Well, I think that's a great note to wrap up our conversation about editorial on Please let the listeners know where they can go to find out more about you and ALLi online.

[00:43:44] Orna: Sure. I'm Orna Ross at OrnaRoss.com and I write fiction and nonfiction and poetry. And I cover all my doings, my personal, doing some writings over there. And I'm director at The Alliance of Independent Authors, the professional organization for self-publishing authors, and we're at AllianceIndependentAuthors.org.

[00:44:11] Matty: Great, well, Orna, thank you so much. And next up is going to be design, so people will want to listen to the second of the seven processes in the next episode.

[00:44:20] Orna: Fantastic. Thanks so much, Matty.