Episode 339 - Smart Marketing Over Hot Genres with Dale L. Roberts

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Dale L. Roberts discusses SMART MARKETING OVER HOT GENRES, including why consistent promotion matters more than genre selection, how going wide on platforms like Kobo and direct sales tools like Curios and Payhip can boost profitability, what your Amazon product page must get right to convert readers, and how author community and tools like Booksprout can give your book a sustainable edge.

Dale L. Roberts is an award-winning author, YouTuber, and leading voice in self-publishing with over 50 titles and 40 book awards. As a trusted advisor to indie authors, he helps writers build their brands, grow their readership, and publish bestselling books.

Episode Links

The serialization of Ann Kinnear Book 7 on Substack

https://selfpublishingwithdale.com

Summary & Transcript

Smart Marketing Over Hot Genres: What Actually Drives Book Profits on Amazon

When listener Brian wrote in to ask whether Amazon KDP is really only profitable for authors writing in hot genres, Matty Dalrymple knew it was time to bring in reinforcements. She called on Dale L. Roberts—publishing strategist, YouTuber, and seven-time guest on The Indy Author Podcast—to dig into the question honestly. What they found is that the genre you write in matters far less than most indie authors think.

Marketing Beats Genre—Every Time

Dale's position is clear: the authors who profit on Amazon are not necessarily the ones writing in trending niches. They're the ones who market consistently and strategically. With millions of books flooding the platform every day, he argues, what differentiates you isn't your genre—it's how reliably you put your book in front of the right readers.

That means moving past the idea that a single social media post or one email newsletter blast constitutes a marketing strategy. Promotion is not a one-and-done activity. Dale points to his own career as evidence: his early fitness books now earn almost nothing, not because they're bad books, but because he no longer promotes them. His self-publishing titles, by contrast, continue to sell—because he continues to show up for them.

The Problem with Chasing Hot Genres

Matty adds an important counterpoint to the "write to market" instinct: hot genres are crowded. When everyone chases the same trending category, readers only dig so far down the list. Unless you can break into the top tier of a massive genre, the visibility advantage disappears. More importantly, she notes, chasing trends often means sacrificing the creative satisfaction of writing what you're genuinely passionate about—and for many indie authors, that trade-off isn't worth it.

That said, neither Matty nor Dale dismisses writing to market as a strategy. Dale references Chris Fox's well-known book on the subject and acknowledges that targeting a large audience has real upside. The catch: a bigger audience means even more competition, which means you have to work even harder on marketing to be heard above the noise.

Going Wide: The Amazon Alternative

One of the most actionable threads in the conversation is the case for going wide—distributing your books across multiple platforms rather than concentrating everything on Amazon. Matty shares that Kobo has recently outpaced Amazon in her own sales, driven in part by participating in Kobo promotions available to authors who distribute directly through Kobo Writing Life. She also notes that Kobo readers have a strong appetite for box sets, a format that converts exceptionally well on that platform.

Beyond Kobo, both Matty and Dale are enthusiastic about direct sales platforms like Curios and Payhip, where authors can capture a much larger share of revenue per sale. When Amazon's algorithm increasingly rewards off-site traffic anyway—as Dale notes, citing analysis from publishing consultant Joe Solari—it raises the obvious question: if you're already driving traffic yourself, why hand Amazon the cut?

The Four Amazon Page Essentials

For authors who do want to maximize their performance on Amazon, Dale lays out four non-negotiables. First, your cover must immediately signal your genre—a browser should be able to identify your niche at a glance. Second, your book description needs to sell, not summarize. The goal is to move the reader frictionlessly from the first line to the buy button. Third, reviews matter: not thousands of them, but a consistent, ongoing trickle that provides social proof and builds credibility with new readers. Fourth, pricing needs to be realistic for your genre and audience expectations.

Matty adds a practical note on the mechanical side of Amazon profitability: keep an eye on your royalty rate settings, especially when running sales. Dropping a book to 99 cents on Amazon automatically reduces the royalty from 70% to 35% and forgetting to reset the rate when the sale ends is an easy, costly mistake.

Building Your Community

Both Matty and Dale circle back repeatedly to the value of community—with peers and with readers. Dale recommends newsletter swaps as one of the most effective author-to-author collaboration tools available and encourages anyone without a peer network to start building one immediately through communities like the Alliance of Independent Authors or author Discord servers.

For building reader relationships and review profiles, Matty is a strong advocate for Booksprout, a platform that connects authors with readers willing to receive a free copy in exchange for an honest review. She appreciates that Booksprout's community tends to be supportive, that readers who aren't connecting with a book can withdraw from a campaign rather than leave a negative review, and that the platform makes it easy to direct review requests to specific retailers.

The Bottom Line

The throughline of this conversation is that profitability in indie publishing is not a mystery—but it does require consistent effort, realistic expectations, and a willingness to look beyond Amazon as the only path. Whether your book is in a massive genre or a narrow niche, the authors who win are the ones who keep showing up: marketing steadily, building community, optimizing their pages, and diversifying their distribution. As Dale puts it simply: just start.

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This transcript was created by Descript and cleaned up by Claude; I don't review these transcripts in detail, so consider the actual interview to be the authoritative source for this information.

Secret Music Hobby

[00:00:00] Matty: Hello and welcome to the Indy Author Podcast. Today, my guest is Dale L. Roberts. Hey, Dale, how are you doing?

[00:00:05] Dale: Hey, Matty. Fantastic. We've already warmed up for about 20 minutes, so.

[00:00:10] Matty: We've already had a nice chat. And because this is, I think, your seventh appearance on the podcast, you know that I no longer read your bio. I ask you to share a fact about yourself that my listeners and I may not know. Oh, man — I didn't even give you a warning about this. I normally warn people, but I thought, no, let's just see what Dale comes up with.

[00:00:30] Dale: Oh, man. I'm not sure what I've shared with you yet, but not many people realize that I've played guitar since I was 13 years old and I continue to compose music to this day on the side, just for fun. That's one of the areas I will not monetize. I like doing music and I just want it to continue to be a hobby of mine that I can have outside of writing and publishing videos and books.

[00:00:54] Matty: And do you share that anywhere where people can hear your songs?

[00:00:57] Dale: Rarely. With it being heavier music, I know it's not everybody's taste. And on top of that, I'm currently in the midst of producing a full-length album with a friend of mine, and we're probably about halfway through it. I imagine it's probably going to take another year because we do it very, very, very slowly.

[00:01:16] Matty: Well, it's nice that you're not monetizing it because it gives you that flexibility to just continue treating it that way — as quickly or as intentionally, as slowly as you want to.

[00:01:27] Dale: Yeah, I look at it kind of like some people would consider going bowling, like joining a bowling league. To me, there's not too much money invested in the time that I spend on it. I've already got the instruments. I've already got the recording software, so I just sit down and play to my heart's content.

[00:01:42] Matty: That's very cool. I love that fact about you.

Listener Question on KDP

[00:01:45] Matty: Well, this episode is going to be a little different than others, because a long time ago — and neither one of us could even remember why we set this up — we set up a recording for the podcast and said, "Oh, let's get together and talk about something related to indie publishing." And so we were coming up to the recording date and we hadn't really landed on anything very specific. So I sent a note out to the people on my email newsletter list. This is a reason to be on my email newsletter list, because sometimes I ask questions like this, asking if anyone had any topics that they would like us to discuss. And one of the listeners, Brian, sent the note: "Amazon KDP makes it very difficult for indie authors to profit unless they're writing in hot genres." And so I thought that would be a really fun topic to delve into. What are we seeing? What has our experience been? I think just to begin with: does that feel true based on your own experience or what you see among other indie authors? Is it hard for people to profit on Amazon KDP unless they're writing in a hot genre?

Marketing Beats Hot Genres

[00:02:51] Dale: Well, I don't want to invalidate how Brian's feeling right now, because there are a ton of authors out there that are experiencing that. That's the lens that they're seeing it through. From my standpoint, I can tell you that you don't just have to be in a hot genre. You just need to be good at marketing and promoting. That's going to be the thing, because there are millions of books — there's just a deluge of books coming in every single day. And the thing that differentiates you from your competition is your marketing and promotional strategy. That's going to be the thing that makes the difference. It's not about hot genres. Sure, if you're in some random, small niche, you're probably not going to make very much money — underwater basket weaving for dolphins, or any other thing that's so random like that. But if there is a readership for your book, it's going to be on Amazon, and it doesn't always have to be a hot genre. You don't always have to be in romantasy, or for that matter, just romance. You can make a decent living over on Amazon. You just have to be a smart marketer. But what's your take on it? Matty, I'm always curious as to how you think about that.

[00:04:09] Matty: Well, I think that one of the downsides of looking to hot genres is that there is a contingent of indie authors who are doing that — and a contingent of traditionally published authors who are doing that, with their publishers doing it for them and saying, "Oh, romantasy, this is really hot, so let's all write romantasy because we're chasing the market." And so there's a downside of trying to get into the hot genres. Let's say for the moment, for the sake of argument, that this is true — that it is difficult for authors to make a profit unless they're writing in hot genres. I think the problem is you're competing for those hot genres with a whole bunch of other people. And even if there's a huge readership out there, that readership is mainly only digging down through the first dozen, the first hundred, even the first thousand of the titles in that selection. Unless you're breaking in at that level, it's not really going to help you. But I think the cost is more related to satisfaction with one's creative life and giving up the satisfaction of looking for the people who are really interested in what you're interested in, even if it's a very niche topic.

[00:05:20] Dale: For sure. I just wanted to know what you thought, because you always bring a different approach to things, and I always love hearing what you have to say. I just hope that Brian never loses heart, because that's one of the things — a lot of people rely so much on Amazon to deliver, but there are oftentimes when I ask what they have done to make their book more visible, to put it in front of more people, and it's usually just, "Well, I posted on social media," or, "Oh, I sent out an email newsletter about it." Okay, that's great, but marketing and promotion is not a one-and-done situation. If you want to continue to see sales and growth on any retailer or library or system, you absolutely need to continually and consistently promote and market your books. So for example, Matty, I think you're aware that I broke into the business as a fitness author originally. Those fitness books draw barely any money now. Why? I don't promote them anymore. I could sit here and say, "Well, why aren't my books selling? They're really good. I've chosen the right keywords. I've chosen the right categories. Why aren't they selling?" Well, because I'm not actively putting those books in front of people. Oddly enough, the books I have about self-publishing — guess what? They are selling. Why? Because I'm actively marketing and promoting those things. So it's super important, and you have to get past social media as the only avenue. I see a lot of people that just cling to social media believing that that's going to be the answer to all their problems, and it truly isn't. It's one small aspect that you can incorporate into your strategy, not the only thing.

Beyond Amazon: Going Wide

[00:06:59] Matty: And I think that the other thing that's important to tease out here is that not only is social media not the only way to promote, but Amazon isn't the only platform to sell on. I look across — you know, I published my first book in 2013 and Amazon was where everybody wanted to be at the time, because I think it sort of conferred some kind of legitimacy. If people could say, "Oh, is your book on Amazon?" and you could say yes, then that was somehow a check mark in your favor. But I think that over time, with the rise of the belief about the importance of going wide — which I definitely agree with; I never want to put all my eggs in any one basket — there might be other platforms that will make it less difficult to turn a profit. The example that I always think of is that Kobo readers love box sets. I make way more money from my box sets on Kobo than I do from Amazon, and I'm not necessarily doing any particular special promotion sending people specifically to Kobo — that's just what those readers are looking for. So I think that understanding what the readers who are going elsewhere than Amazon are looking for is another way of maybe boosting your profitability.

[00:08:12] Dale: Well, first off, thanks for that tip on the box sets on Kobo. As soon as we're done here, I'm jumping over there and starting to load up with box sets. But do you think that since a lot of the indie author community is so focused on Amazon, and sometimes more importantly KDP, that they miss the bigger opportunities on platforms like Kobo Writing Life or even Kobo in general?

[00:08:34] Matty: Yeah. I think I am always trying to make the percentage of my sales that's coming from Amazon as low as possible. Just coincidentally, over the last couple of months, I think because I do run Kobo promos — I distribute direct on Kobo and it makes me eligible for the promotions that they run — and unusually, while Amazon is usually the bigger chunk of my book sales, the last month or so it has been Kobo. So I'm not relying on Amazon for that. And I think there are other platforms — my listeners might be getting bored of this, but I'm going to mention Curios, because Curios is a platform where you can maximize your profits because you get 100% of the list price. That is really good for people who are super fans and who are willing to pay the list price, plus a little bit, to make sure that you as the creator get the most money. The same can be said for any kind of direct sales platform. The more we let Amazon control the direction of our career, the less we can adjust our plans in order to avoid the pitfalls of being in that situation.

[00:09:44] Dale: It's so true. You often hear some people talking about how the algorithms have changed. Well, the algorithms continue to evolve and improve and get better. And then think about all the competition that's constantly coming into that platform — there's so much to work against. It's no surprise that a lot of indie authors are looking for alternatives. And I think it was over the last year that Joe Solari — a good friend of yours and mine, a mutual friend at least —

[00:10:13] Matty: Yes, yes.

[00:10:14] Dale: Joe put out a great piece about Amazon's algorithm, and how right now, more than ever, they're looking at customer behavior and, more importantly, customer satisfaction. Are they buying the book? Are they reading the book? How long is it taking them to read that book? Are they posting a review? Are they sharing it? Are there certain excerpts within that ebook that they're highlighting? There are small engagement metrics that really make a huge difference. And there are some people that are just like, "I just want to put my book over there. I don't want to bother with all this stuff." But the bottom line — something that Joe had shared — was that the platform is now responding more positively to off-site traffic than on-site. In other words, those days of organic sales are going to start to dry up. And I think the smart authors are going to know, "Okay, I have to market and promote this book if I want to see any traction on there." But there are also other authors taking that one step further: "Well, if I've got to put all this work into sending traffic over to Amazon, why are they taking a cut? I might as well just drive that traffic over to another retailer" — or in the instance of something like Curios, or one platform I like to use, Payhip, send it over in that direction, because then we keep all of the money and all the credit. Although Payhip, I think, takes about 5% on their free plan.

[00:11:30] Matty: Yeah. I think that it really speaks to the idea of thinking not only about marketing and promotion, but also community building, because some of these other opportunities outside Amazon do require you to get over a little hump of resistance or unfamiliarity or something like that. I mean, you can't beat Amazon for convenience. So if I order a print book and it shows up the next day, that's fun. But what I think is more meaningful — one of the hardest reasons to pull people away from Amazon — is that I love the fact that if I hear about a book that sounds good, I go on Amazon, and it says, "You purchased this book in July of 2019." I've saved myself so much money by not repurchasing a book that I already have on my Kindle somewhere, and that is an undeniable benefit. You have to convince the people that you're trying to reach that it's worth it for them to maybe leave behind those kinds of benefits if they've been a longtime Kindle reader, and create the relationship that makes them willing to make that little bit of extra effort or pay that little bit of extra money to buy your book elsewhere.

[00:12:42] Dale: Yeah, for sure.

Hot Genre Strategy and Collaborations

[00:12:43] Dale: Going back to the hot genre thing — something that jumps to the top of my head: if we were to consider going hot genre, what would be the best approach for something like that? In other words, let's say Brian says, "Screw you guys. I want to go all in on a hot genre. How do I make this work?"

[00:13:03] Matty: Well, I think that regardless of the genre, you're going to benefit by teaming up with other people in your genre. The idea that comp authors means comparable, not competition — whether you're driving people to Amazon or somewhere else, hot genre or not, you can capitalize on the value of the genre you're in by teaming up with other people in that same genre. What do you think about that?

[00:13:31] Dale: To me, the thing that jumps to the top of my head right away is newsletter swaps. That's probably one of the best ways to work with other authors in your niche. And I think there's still a misconception rolling around here, so let me just address this right away. When you do newsletter swaps, you're not giving your newsletter over to another author. You are simply giving a spotlight to that author and whatever they have to offer, in exchange for the same. They're going to share your book and you share theirs, or they're going to share your post and you share theirs, and so on and so forth. The rising tide raises all boats — how perfect that I bring that up on this podcast. I think it's probably the 50th time I've brought that phrase up. It just happens to be nautical, so I happen to be on the right podcast.

[00:14:15] Matty: Yes, that's exactly right.

Profitability: Costs and Pitfalls

[00:14:18] Matty: And I don't want to stray too far from the question Brian asked, which was specific to profitability. There's also the question of what profitability means to certain people. Does it mean being able to pay back the expenses you put into the editing and the cover design so you're not in the red? Or does it mean paying the bills with it? Your strategy is going to be very different in those circumstances.

[00:14:44] Dale: Yeah, absolutely. I hear profitability being thrown around quite a bit. What's profitable? I mean, if I make a nickel, isn't that profitable? So yeah, it's understanding what you need to do to get your author business functioning out of the red, to where you're getting compensated for that hard work that you've put into that publication.

[00:15:09] Matty: And I think also the idea that you hear people say that they're six-figure authors, and that probably means before they factor in their expenses. This whole idea that if they sold $100,000 worth of books, but it cost them $110,000 in ads and marketing to do that — well, that's not the model you want to be following. And how can you balance the investment you make in Amazon ads or Facebook ads pointing people to Amazon, or whatever that combination of expenses is? How can you always keep in mind that you need to be factoring that in when you talk about the profitability of any platform?

[00:15:46] Dale: Yeah, you can't ignore those additional expenses. And I think a lot of people get very romantic about this business because they've watched a YouTube video of somebody who's just like, "Hey, I made $60,000 by barely trying." Come on — you see those types of videos, and you need to go into them with a degree of skepticism. And the other thing is: just remember that everybody's journey is going to be different. You do need to get very clear with what you want to do with this business. You have to be very realistic about it. You can't just say, "I'm going to make $100,000 this year," when you just published your first book. Let's walk that back. Let's think about some of those systems and processes that we have to put in place to get to that point — to getting to six figures per year. That could mean breaking into Amazon ads, or even BookBub ads, or any number of paid promotional tools. There's going to be some investment of time. I don't think there's any author out there — there may be a few outliers — who is able to just write something and all of a sudden they're making money hand over fist. That's a rare, rare, rare occasion. And a lot of times, indie authors are going to find out the hard way: this is not an easy business, and it's going to take a lot of grit and determination, as well as a little bit of self-awareness to be able to step back and say, "Okay, what am I doing right and how can I double down on that? And what am I doing wrong, and how can I remove that from my workflow and process?"

Amazon Page Essentials and Wrap-Up

[00:17:19] Matty: Can you think of things specific to Amazon? Let's pursue a little bit the idea that if somebody's goal is really to be profitable on Amazon, but maybe with a book that isn't in one of these hot genres, are there common pitfalls that you see people falling into that you can give advice on how to avoid?

[00:17:37] Dale: The biggest one — and I've been tooting this horn for a long time — is that there are certain fundamental elements, the foundation you have to put in place, regardless of whatever the niche or genre is that you're in. You need to have a solid cover design that is indicative of the niche that you're in. In other words, if someone looks at that cover, they should be able to say right away, "That's the exact specific niche that you're in," and it needs to resonate with them. The next one: okay, you've got this great cover design, but now you have to provide context through a description. That description needs to sell them, and it needs to get them from the top of that description down to the bottom as fluidly as possible and with as little friction as possible, so that all they have to do right after that is click that buy button. And the other thing is reviews. Reviews need to be an active part of every author's business strategy. You don't need to get thousands of reviews, but having a consistent trickle of reviews coming in is going to make all the difference in the world, because that social proof is credibility that's going to help other browsing customers make that decision: is this book right for me? Having a review profile or a rating profile of some sort is going to give you a little bit of that advantage. So have at least those three elements in place. One could probably make the argument that the pricing also needs to be realistic for the genre and the expectations of those readers. But if you get all those dialed in, that's going to give you a better advantage. If you're in a very small, very niche, very tight audience, you've got very few opportunities to make a good first impression. You need to make sure that those elements are all dialed in, so that when your ideal reader is landing on your product page, it's an easy decision for them. So this means you have to be very focused on those four elements. Have a good, professional cover design — not just one that has been whipped together from a Canva template, and definitely not Microsoft Paint, although believe it or not, there are some people who have used it. Get that description dialed in. You're not trying to tell somebody the story; you're trying to sell the story. Stop spending so much time trying to break down what you've already broken down inside the book. We need to have compelling reasons to buy your book, and that description is where you've got to deliver. And then the reviews — stay consistent with getting out there and asking more readers. Send something in your email newsletter. Anyone who has gotten any of your books at all, you should be approaching them about posting a review. Get those reviews up, and of course make sure that your pricing isn't unrealistic. Is there anything that you would say for or against that?

[00:20:33] Matty: Yeah. I thought of a couple of things, and I'm harking back to a conversation we had back in episode 302, "AI as Business Consultant and Coach." Some of the things I'm thinking of are that there are some very mechanical things that you need to do to improve your profitability on Amazon. For example, making sure that the royalty rate selected is correct. Every month I put one of my novels on sale to 99 cents, and as a result on Amazon, I have to drop from the 70% royalty rate to the 35% royalty rate. And every once in a while, when I put it back to its normal price of $6.99, I forget to change the royalty back — and Amazon doesn't remind you.

[00:21:15] Dale: They're like, "I'll take that."

[00:21:16] Matty: Exactly. You forget to click one thing and suddenly you're eating into your profit. So you might be able to feed data from your KDP account into a tool like ChatGPT and say, "Are you seeing anything weird here?" The other thing it made me think of — something you might be able to use AI for — is that I know that on different platforms, the expectations for book descriptions vary. I have used AI to draft sales descriptions for me, and then I tweak them as needed, but what I'm realizing might be valuable is asking AI to write different sales descriptions for different platforms. I don't have specific information about how you would optimize it for Amazon versus Google Play, but I do know that on one of the platforms — I think it's Google Play, but it might be another one — they actually encourage the inclusion of keywords in the description, like "Second Chance Romance, Western," or whatever. They expect you to put that in, whereas on other platforms, that would be discouraged. So making sure you're complying with the expectations that readers on each platform have, to make your book as appealing as possible on that specific platform.

[00:22:29] Dale: For sure. For sure.

[00:22:32] Matty: So do you think there are any pros to writing to the hot genre? Because I feel like writing to a hot genre would be soul-sucking for me personally — I wouldn't want to do it for myself — but it is certainly a legitimate business decision for some people. Do you have any thoughts about the extent to which you can maximize profitability on Amazon just by consciously writing to those hot genres? What are the pros and cons?

[00:22:59] Dale: I mean, sure. If you're going to go after those hot genres, you can write to market. Chris Fox has a great book about writing to market — he published it several years ago, and I believe it probably still holds up to this day. But I'm with you in that if something doesn't resonate with me, I'm not just going to go chase after it. That said, I don't want to make it seem like I'm trying to dissuade or tell people that they're less than if they choose to write to market. The pros are definitely that you're putting yourself in a position to have a larger audience. But with that larger audience comes more responsibility — coming back again to the marketing and promotional aspect of things. So there are your cons: you're going to have to work even harder in a very hot niche to be heard above the noise, to even break any kind of profit. You need to make yourself as visible as possible, probably more so than someone in a smaller niche where there's easier discoverability, less competition, but still a hungry reading base.

[00:24:08] Matty: Yeah. When you were talking about reviews, you said, "Make sure that all the people who have gotten your book leave a review." I had two thoughts about how people can maximize that opportunity specific to Amazon. One is — putting in another plug for one of my favorite products — Booksprout. Booksprout is a platform that matches readers up with books. This is not paying for reviews; it's paying for a service that offers the book to readers. You can get different levels of plans. One thing that I really like about Booksprout is you upload your book, the person gets the book for free, in exchange for reading it and leaving a review. I like Booksprout because I was getting a fair number of reviews on Amazon, but almost none on Apple Books and Google Play — books had been out for years and had only two or three reviews. So I really liked that I could encourage people to leave reviews on those other platforms. But if you really wanted to double down on Amazon, you could just say, "I'm only looking for people who are going to leave reviews on Amazon," and Booksprout would help you do that. The other thing I really like about Booksprout is that it's a kinder, gentler community than, say, Goodreads. What I've found is that a couple of times people have downloaded the book and then, in Booksprout terminology, withdrawn from the campaign. I think it's because they started the book, thought, "Eh, this isn't really for me," and rather than leaving a bad review, they just returned the book, which was very nice. And you can communicate with the people who are leaving the reviews, so you have that kind of connection with them. The other thing is, if you can — because you're never going to get the customer information for Amazon buyers the way you would with Curios or Payhip buyers — get people to your email list and then encourage them to go to Amazon and leave reviews. Don't rely on the retail platform to be your connection, in the same way we advise not relying on social media to be your connection. Really lean into your email newsletter list. If you want to send them to Amazon, make that as easy for them as possible. If you want to send them to Payhip, make that as easy as possible, and so on.

[00:26:22] Dale: Agreed. Yeah, I'd nothing really add to that. That's brilliant.

[00:26:27] Matty: So as the marketing and promotion guide, Dale, any final thoughts you would have on Brian's overall question about the challenges with regard to Amazon KDP and it seeming to funnel everyone toward hot genres? Any closing thoughts on that?

[00:26:43] Dale: So what I would say to Brian and anybody else looking at this and saying, "Okay, I want to go in on this, but Dale tells me I've got to do the work" — just start. I'm not telling you that you have to get on Good Morning America to promote your book. I'm not even telling you you have to leave your house. But you do have to put some type of consistent effort into it, even if it's small, even if it's just a little bit. And I want to build on something that Matty said earlier: don't do it alone. Work with peers within your network. If you don't have any peers in your network, today is a good day to go over to a Discord community. You can even go to the Alliance of Independent Authors — they've got a great community. There are a number of places. Just get in a space where there are other authors just like you, because you trying to do it on your own, you versus the world — I hate to tell you, you're not going to win if you try to do this on your own. Get other people to come along with you. I can think of my own network: Matty, you're one of my close peers, Michael LaRon's another one, Nick Thacker, Kevin Tumlinson — all these people are within my network. And if you don't have a network right now, my next action step for you is to go meet somebody and make a friend. And oh, also — I love Booksprout. I wanted to add that as well. It is probably one of my favorite services. I've had a bad review on that platform, and I'm okay with that.

[00:28:09] Matty: Yeah. Well, the other tip I will add, just to encourage the community building, is that I always thank the reviewer regardless. Fortunately, I get almost all good reviews, but even if someone gives me a three or a four, I'll still thank them, and you can tell that just that outreach is very meaningful to them and makes it much more likely that they're going to leave another, even better, review next time. So yeah, I think it just loops back to community — community with your peers, community with your readers, keeping that connection alive wherever you can, even if you are selling on the biggest bookstore in the world.

[00:28:45] Dale: For sure.

[00:28:46] Matty: So cool. Well, Dale, always lovely to chat with you. Pretty soon we're going to have to line up visit eight, and then we'll get together and say, "What do you want to talk about today?"

[00:28:55] Dale: Exactly. Just throw something random on my calendar and I'll probably just show up.

[00:28:59] Matty: So fun. Well, please let everyone know where they can go to find out more about you and everything you do online.

[00:29:04] Dale: It's super simple. All you have to do is look up Dale L. Roberts. The middle initial stands for Lewis, so that way everybody doesn't forget. Dale L. Roberts — you'll be able to find me on YouTube, Substack, and everywhere else. DaleRoberts.com is also my author website, which is going to be updated soon.

[00:29:20] Matty: Very cool. Thank you so much.

[00:29:22] Dale: Thank you.

Episode 337 - Story First, Marketing Second with Carlo J. Emanuele

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Carlo J. Emanuele discusses STORY FIRST, MARKETING SECOND, including why authors make the same mistake corporate executives do when they lead with features instead of value, how to move beyond genre labels to find the emotional core of your pitch, why comps should describe an experience rather than a category, why marketing tasks feel productive but often aren’t, and how enthusiasm and vulnerability turn out to be the most effective marketing tools of all.

Carlo J. Emanuele is an award-winning crime novelist and corporate executive from Milwaukee’s South Side. Drawing from personal experience and a deep understanding of family, ambition, and adversity, he writes emotionally charged stories that explore the cost of power and the pursuit of redemption. His debut novel, The Sins We Inherit, has earned multiple national awards and critical acclaim for its gritty realism and heartfelt father-daughter core. The second installment, The Cost We Pay, launches this June. A former collegiate athlete and proud father of two, Carlo builds a cinematic crime saga rooted in legacy, identity, and transformation.

Episode Links

https://thesinsweinherit.com/

https://www.facebook.com/share/1BLzxeY1y5/

Summary & Transcript

Carlo J. Emanuele is an award-winning crime novelist and corporate executive from Milwaukee’s South Side. His debut novel, THE SINS WE INHERIT, has earned multiple national awards for its gritty realism and heartfelt father-daughter core, and the second installment in the saga, THE COST WE PAY, launches this June. In this conversation, Carlo drew on his corporate background to make the case that authors who lead with story rather than marketing tactics build stronger books, stronger brands, and stronger long-term careers.

THE CORPORATE MISTAKE AUTHORS KEEP MAKING

Carlo opened with an analogy from the business world. Corporate executives routinely fall into the trap of marketing features and benefits—the specs of a product—rather than stepping back to ask what value the product actually adds to a customer’s life. Authors make the same mistake when they lead with genre labels: “I wrote a mafia book” is a feature. “This is a story about a man getting pulled back into the life while trying to reconnect with his daughter” is a value proposition. The first invites comparison to every other mafia novel on Amazon. The second invites a reader to care.

BEYOND GENRE LABELS

Matty noted that the conversation dovetailed with a recent run of episodes about genre—what it signals to readers, what it costs to violate conventions, and whether it functions more as a marketing marker than a creative driver. Carlo agreed but added that genre is where he initially struggled most. When submitting for awards, he could not decide whether THE SINS WE INHERIT was general fiction, crime fiction, or suspense thriller. His resolution was to stop defining the book by its shelf and start defining it by its emotional core: a father-daughter story set against a gritty Milwaukee backdrop, inspired less by crime novels than by the emotional tension of BREAKING BAD and the intimacy of A BRONX TALE. He noted that Mario Puzo received the same pushback when he wrote THE GODFATHER—mafia stories had been done—and what made that book endure was not the genre but the family dynamics underneath it.

COMPS AS EXPERIENCE, NOT COMPETITION

The conversation turned to comp titles. Carlo offered a reframe that Matty echoed: a comp is not competition, it is comparison. And the most useful comparisons are not genre matches but experience matches—stories that make the reader feel the same way yours does, regardless of format. Carlo’s own comps included television and film as well as novels, because what he was trying to capture on the page was a specific quality of tension and emotional complexity rather than a genre category. Matty added that she found it helpful to stop thinking of comps as “books like mine” and start thinking of them as “if people liked that, they’ll like this.”

BUILDING IP FROM THE START

Carlo described thinking about intellectual property from the very first outline. As someone entrepreneurial by nature, owning the IP and being able to tell his own story was a priority from the beginning. In practical terms, that meant building sustainable character arcs by writing full backstories for every character in the novel—a process that took months but gave him a foundation he could draw on across multiple books. It also meant treating Milwaukee as a character in its own right, creating a sense of place that would carry through the saga. And it meant tactical decisions like securing URLs and framing the series under a single umbrella—THE SINS WE INHERIT saga—rather than marketing each book individually.

WHY MARKETING FEELS SAFE AND WHY IT FAILS

Carlo identified a paradox: marketing tasks feel productive but are often the least effective part of the process. Creating a Canva ad or posting a book cover on Facebook is tangible and satisfying—you can check it off a list. But it is no substitute for the hard strategic work of distilling an 80,000-word novel into a fifteen-second pitch that makes a stranger care. They framed marketing as having three layers—strategy, execution, and tasks—and noted that the tasks are seductive precisely because they are easy. Carlo agreed: the task should be the last thing you do, not the first, because the strategy and the execution will guide it.

FEEDBACK LOOPS AND COVERS AS BILLBOARDS

Both Carlo and Matty shared examples of marketing messages that misfired until they solicited feedback. Matty’s tagline using the word “power” made readers think her thriller was a religious book. Carlo’s early cover designs prompted the same question about THE SINS WE INHERIT. In both cases, the feedback loop—testing language and visuals with real people—caught the problem before it calcified. Carlo noted that he hired a professional cover designer rather than attempting his own, and that the hardest lesson was accepting that the cover’s job is not to represent the story’s full complexity but to get someone to stop and open the book. Matty cited Orna Ross’s line: a book cover is not a work of art, it’s a billboard.

ENTHUSIASM AND VULNERABILITY AS MARKETING

Carlo, a self-described private person, found that the most effective marketing he did was simply being honest about where the story came from—a divorce, a fear of losing his family, a journal that became a novel. That vulnerability, paired with genuine enthusiasm for the finished product, connected with potential readers in a way that no Canva ad or genre label ever could. Matty reinforced the point with an example from a previous episode: Todd Fahnestock’s in-person pitch for his fantasy novels was so enthusiastic that Matty—who does not read fantasy—was ready to buy every book he had. The takeaway: if you sat down and wrote 80,000 words, you have permission to be proud of it, and telling people that pride is real is the most authentic marketing you can do.

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This transcript was created by Descript and cleaned up by Claude; I don’t review these transcripts in detail, so consider the actual interview to be the authoritative source for this information.

[00:00:00] Matty: Hello and welcome to the Indy Author Podcast. Today my guest is Carlo Emanuele. Hey, Carlo, how are you doing?

[00:00:05] Carlo: Hey, Matty, how are you? So nice to be on.

[00:00:08] Matty: It is lovely to have you here and to give our listeners and viewers a little bit of background on you. Carlo J. Emanuele is an award-winning crime novelist and corporate executive from Milwaukee’s South Side, drawing from personal experience and a deep understanding of family ambition and adversity. He writes emotionally charged stories that explore the cost of power and the pursuit of

His debut novel. THE SINS WE INHERIT has earned multiple national awards and critical acclaim for its gritty realism and heartfelt father daughter core. In the second installment, THE COST WE PAY launches this June. And so I invited Carlo on the podcast to talk about building IP from Story first, marketing second, and why most people get this

And, I am always interested, especially as someone who came from the corporate world myself, I am always interested in finding out how people are applying, the lessons they’ve learned from their first career to their, career as an author, and especially Carlo in this case, because IP and marketing that kind of has potential corporate tie

[00:01:08] Matty: Was there something from your corporate life

[00:01:13] Carlo: Yeah, so I would say initially it wasn’t painfully obvious until, you know, I started getting into the editing portions of the, of my first novel, and that’s where I really drew upon my corporate experience and a common challenge that business executives

I’m selling x, y, Z product. Not talking about, and talking about like features and benefits versus just kind of taking a step back and saying what values is actually adding? Who is my audience and what does the story actually mean? they think in terms of marketing tactics as opposed

Why the heck does it actually matter? So the reason I bring that up is. To me, leading with Story first is not, Hey, this is a mafia book. It is. This is a story about a man who’s getting pulled back into the life while trying to reconnect with his daughter Matty. So if you like gritty crime dramas like BREAKING BAD or The Intimacy of A BRONX TALE,

[00:02:21] Matty: So that’s a fundamentally different message opposed to. You know, go buy my book. It’s in the mafia genre. Right. So I hope that answers the question directly, but that’s definitely where it’s helped. Yeah,

I like this idea. I mean, I never thought of it in terms of the downside of features and benefits, like having from. I worked for many years for a company that produced healthcare information systems and then I worked

So it was all features and benefits at QVC, and that is very interesting. I never particularly thought of it in terms of the, benefits of selling a widget using pros and, but the hazards of selling. What I think every reader hopes is kind of the story of your heart using

[00:03:06] Carlo: you know, it was really helpful to me because, you know, even, you know, the mafia genre has been around for what feels like forever. When Mario Puzo wrote THE GODFATHER, the feedback he got was mafia story. That’s been written. That’s been done, you know, and that’s how long ago? It’s 50 years ago, right?

So 60 years ago. So, you know, it’s really around what makes it unique, what would differentiate it from others in the genre or what transcends genre in general and forcing yourself to think that way. It not only helps from a story standpoint, but it helps from character arcs and how you market it and how you position the novel overall as well.

[00:03:44] Matty: Yeah, there has been an, maybe this was coincidental or maybe it was like, you know, the creative, God’s pulling together on this one. But I’ve had a whole series of episodes where the focus has really been on genre and what that means for reader expectations. So it’s been a combination of. The importance of either meeting reader expectations for a particular genre or if you are violating the conventions and understanding what the pros and cons of

You know, the price you might pay by violating the expectations. there have been conversations about, how genre is more of a marketing marker than it is a creative marker or a creative driver. And I think those are all, very legitimate perspectives. But then I also like layering on this perspective that it’s the human story underneath it that’s even more

[00:04:34] Carlo: That is such a good point. And you know, really for me, the novel for me started as a journal, and so this story’s very personal to me. At the end of the day, it’s a father daughter story. Not a mafia story. So, you know, really where genre came into play more than anything else is, you know, like I said earlier, how do I target

How do I bring the personal elements into this so that you capture the right kind of reader? Because there’s all sorts of different mafia stories, you know, ranging from romance to really gritty, right? So, That’s why I love Dennis Lehane’s books so much, and MYSTIC RIVER and

They’re not crime novels in my mind. They’re, they capture tension so effectively that was really inspired me as I went through this journey.

[00:05:28] Matty: I like hearing that as a reader because I think it is important to factor in genre when you’re writing or when you’re planning your marketing, but I also feel like there aren’t that many readers out there who. Only read mafia fiction or only read Cozy

And I realized that idea of what’s going on, what’s the driver, not the genre of the story, is much more important to me. Like I just recently realized that something that’s important to me is I’m more interested in, speaking of Dennis Lehane, I’m much more interested in. When good people do bad things than I am in, when bad people do bad things.

Like I’m just not interested in bad people doing bad things. but understanding the psychology behind what drives a good person to do a bad thing is much more interesting to me. Which I think is sort of along the lines of what you’re saying, like you’re, in your case, it’s the father daughter dynamic and people across genres could be interested in

[00:06:26] Carlo: That’s right. and truth be told, we all can relate to that versus just a bad person. As a bad person. We’re all human beings. We have our sins and we have our strengths and you know much of the story. The main protagonist is largely. based on me and the things that, in reflecting I. I really like about myself and things like, boy, I wish I could change those.

So that element of it, I totally agree with that. And some of the stories that I’ve always grasped onto the most are the ones, even when they’re at the point of doing terrible things, you kind of understand why they’re doing it. And you’re just, do you have to make that decision, you know? And that’s what really brings readers in, at least

And, you know, I’m, it’s still my first book. I don’t have all the answers, but I do know what feels right to me. And, oh, I didn’t want this to feel like a soap opera, opera soap opera. I want it to feel like a gritty, realistic tale.

[00:07:18] Matty: Yeah, it, this also addresses, I can’t remember what episode it was in, but my guest and I, got into a conversation about, books that are that their authors describe as literary for. And this is something that always, rubs me the wrong way because if I’m, if I hear that as a author, I kind of feel, you know, as the author of genre fiction, I feel like it’s sort of a intended to be a quality

Like there’s genre fiction and then there’s good literary fiction.

[00:07:46] Carlo: It does feel that way. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:48] Matty: But as a reader, I also like. I’m never going to say, oh, I have to read that story because I’m like, what does that even tell me? Like what I want to hear is this is a story, about father and daughter relationships, or this is a story about good people doing bad things, which I found much more hooky as a reader than labeling

[00:08:07] Carlo: No, I appreciate you saying that because even when you, you know, right before a release and I’m thinking about, you know, what awards would it be, make sense to submit for. I’m like, I don’t know what category to put this in. Is it general fiction? Is it crime fiction? Is it suspense thriller? but I had the exact same

I’m like, does that mean this is for better writers than me? I didn’t know what it meant, you know, so I appreciate you saying that. It’s

[00:08:33] Matty: Yeah.

[00:08:52] Matty: And the other thing that this is making me think of is the idea of comp authors and I times. Writers struggle with identifying comp authors because as the person who created the work, you can only see how your work is unique and special. And so someone can say something that’s, you know, if you say, you know, I’m writing the first, Star Wars novel and it’s the, it’s comp is Star Trek. Then the Star Wars person is going to think of all the reasons that it’s not like Star Trek, you know, all the things that set it apart. So I think, maybe that is also a benefit of thinking, not in terms of genre, like what are my genre comps, but what are my underlying story comps?

[00:09:14] Carlo: I think that’s, correct and that’s certainly the way that I attempted to look at this and it was outside of just novelists and my favorite books. It was also how did stories make me feel? How does that come across potentially in the story that,that I created? So, you know, a lot of the comps I looked at were things like, you know, BREAKING BAD and, you know, movies that really visually

The tension, anxiety, and human elements of the story that to me, are more important than any. Gangster shoot up kind of stuff. That’s not how real life works anyways, so, that part was really important to me too, to get some of the comps right. And that’s not to say that the book’s not unique, right?

That just means they’re, what are things that inspired you as you, you’ve gone along your journey. And that’s not something that I’ve,

[00:10:12] Matty: Yeah, it’s helped me when I stopped thinking of comps as books like mine and started thinking of it as books that people, if people like that book, they’ll like my book too, or vice

[00:10:21] Carlo: yeah. A comp doesn’t mean competition, it means comparable, and I think that’s a really important.

[00:10:29] Matty: so I want to now loop back to the topic, which is building IP from story first, marketing second. So talk a little bit about, I mean, we’ve been talking about story and theme and things like that, but you sort of frame this as building ip. So can you talk a little bit about, when you talk about building ip, what specifically are

[00:10:47] Carlo: Yeah, so I think where it started was one of the things, even as I was just simply outlining book one was I’m entrepreneurial by nature. So owning the intellectual property to it, being able to tell my own story was something that was just. On my mind, literally from the gate. So I did a lot of research on how that actually

that’s one. But I would say from a storytelling standpoint, and I don’t know if this is common or not, again, this is my first novel, but this is what I did. sustainable character arcs were really important to me because you can leverage them later. also I created for every character in the novel, I created an entire backstory that took. Months just to get done for everybody. So they felt grounded as human beings, not placeholders or cliche characters or folks that would just kind of take up sta space. So I think that was a big part of it. And then it’s small tactical things like try to wrap a universe around it.

So you know, for me, the story wasn’t only about a man who tries to escape the life. That is now coming after his daughter. It was also around the city of Milwaukee, I felt was unique. It’s not a story that’s been told and that’s a I wanted Milwaukee to feel like a character in the novel. So I might be giving you like a long meandering answer here, but it’s really around being really tight with your

, because you’re not going to have everything plotted out. I knew I wanted several books. But I’d be lying if I said, I know what every character’s going to do for the course of two to three novels, but understanding who they are and what drives them and what their history is, is really, really important. It makes it writing for them easier

understanding some of the ancillary characters like a city was important. And then tactical things like, make sure you own the URLs, things like that. Creates a little bit more to me, power and anchor in,

[00:12:48] Matty: do you actually actively have websites in the name of each of your books, or will you have websites active in the name

[00:12:55] Carlo: Yeah. So what, I have the, SINS WE INHERIT, um. Um, dot com. I likely will with THE COST WE PAY for book two, but really THE SINS WE INHERIT is the anchor. So even the other titles that will come out, it’s part of THE SINS WE INHERIT saga. So

[00:13:09] Matty: I like that. I like the idea of

[00:13:10] Carlo: yeah, so essentially,

[00:13:12] Matty: as opposed to book by book, which would be kind of a, an administrative nightmare I would

[00:13:16] Carlo: administrative nightmare. I don’t have the time for that, nor that do I think it’s overly effective. It’s really the

[00:13:26] Matty: when you had talked about some of the ways that, you thought beyond the single book in terms of long-term ip, understanding the arc, understanding like Milwaukee as a character

[00:13:37] Carlo: it is interesting about the balance of, marketing a series versus marketing a book. And so as an example, one thing I found AI very useful for is feeding it the contents of my book and asking it to write, sales descriptions and. Actually, I probably

[00:13:55] Matty: So, the tools are so much better now. I imagine that it would do a much better job. It was very good at things like, as I’ve mentioned in previous episodes, identifying tropes that I could call out, like for people who love found family stories and things like

But one thing I did notice is that. Even though I was providing the entire book to the AI to base the description on early, you know, a year ago when I did this, there was almost no variety. You know, I could have swapped the descriptions for book one and book two and it kind of

So I had to go back and, and fix that. but I think maybe a pro of that exercise is understanding. The things that you want to plug as the experience, and I think that’s what we’re talking about. Like you want to talk about the experience the reader’s going to get and what’s the experience of the overall series, and then be able to drill down and say, and then what’s the experience of this particular book?

Like, book one is him getting into trouble. Book two is him living with the consequences and finding, a, an intriguing way to pose that to

[00:14:59] Carlo: Yeah, and I think that’s a really good point too that I didn’t bring up and I, you advancements in AI have. For any indie authors out there listening, like leveraging that as a tool is really, really critical. But beyond that, in terms of marketing and commercializing these kind of things, the game is less about, I have a task, please tell me how to do it, and more of what kind of questions

ChatGPT as an example. Meaning I, you can upload the book and they give you a meaningful review. But what I found is I didn’t get a meaningful review of it until I changed my settings and said, be brutally honest with me. Don’t worry about my feelings. You know, all

But secondly, rather than asking, Hey, I want to market my book, what should I do? It’s asking it things like, please describe for me why my novel and story is unique, why it’s not. Who like the likely comps and readers would be. And then you could start getting, you’re getting a broader reach. It’s elevating again, from not marketing to story, and you can leverage that any number of channels, over time.

And, AI is getting so smart that, I don’t know why you’d handcuff it

[00:16:20] Matty: Yeah. One tip I always like to offer people is,never use the prompt, delete it. Like, do you think this is a good idea? And I always say like, tell me the pros and cons of this idea. And I also have to say in, mid-April of 2026, that. I find it heartening that it is both an incredibly useful tool, for me, publishing wise and

And it is also surprisingly bad sometimes. Like I actually, I kind of feel good as a writer that, You know, I’ve never seen anything come out of AI that I was like, oh yeah, that’s great. I’m just going to publish that as it is, and it gets things freakishly wrong. Like it still surprises me that can be so sophisticated about some things and so

Like I was, I’m working on my, My seventh Kiner suspense novel, and it’s about a woman who can communicate with the dead. And so what I was doing is I was feeding each chapter into Claude, and then I was saying, first, give me a dev edit of this. Some of it’s, some of its comments were right on, like, this scene is dragging on too long, or, you know,

And things like that. And then asked it to do a copy, edit and proofread. And the thing I kept having to tell it is it would say, well, when Arthur, the dead guy that Anne is talking with says this, it means that this other person knows too. And I’m like, no, he’s dead. The whole point is that Anne’s the only person who can hear him.

and I had to tell it that over and over again. And I’m like, that’s

[00:17:49] Carlo: It, you know,

[00:17:50] Matty: just not good at some things.

[00:17:51] Carlo: it does. I mean, and you know, it’s a whole that’s, we could do a whole podcast on AI in general, which I’m sure you have. But, you know, it’s the things where it’s a task that it’s really good. Like if you wanted to do, be an analyst, it’s a great analyst, but creative work.

As advanced as it’s come, it’s still, it adds value for sure, but it’s like a human being. It’s very comfortable just making stuff up and guessing and being, you know, so yeah, you, I would not feel comfortable or nor enjoy reading a book that it wrote, at least at this point. Now, 10 years from now, who knows?

[00:18:23] Carlo: it would be very predictable. I think that the very fact of how it’s trained means that it would be very predictable Takes it to the median, right?

[00:18:30] Matty: Yeah, exactly.

[00:18:31] Carlo: by nature, it takes it to the average, so, yeah.

[00:18:35] Matty: When, if, so you’re saying that, sometimes this marketing first versus story first approach feels safer to writers.

[00:18:46] Carlo: Well, I think. So I might be different in this vein, but, so, and you are as well, I’m sure when you come from the corporate world, you’re kind of thinking about marketing. Even if you’re not in a marketing function, it’s departments you’ve worked with,you’ve been engaging in those groups.

But I think where authors likely struggle is one, they, you know, they write a book , because they love writing a book, not because they want to be great marketers, so they don’t really think about marketing. In total, it’s, I’ll release it. then it’ll sell, which there’s too much

It’s, you know, that’s hard. You know. T

[00:19:20] Carlo: he second thing, what I would say, to answer your question more directly, marketing is comforting. So I’m going to create a flyer, or I’m going to create a cool Facebook post show, the cover of my book and say, Hey, I got a new mafia book, please. Please

You can see it. It’s just not effective. Right. So I, you know, to me that’s where the difference is. The hard work comes in. How do you take an 80,000 word book? You’ve just spent two years writing that’s been painful and rewarding and all those things. And how do you sum it up in

It’s really difficult to do. Authors by nature have a tremendous amount of depth. But your buyer’s looking at something for four seconds. So, you know, that’s the part if you’re not anchored in, you know, either you know your value, why they should care, it’s, you know, it’s hard.

[00:20:12] Matty: Yeah.

[00:20:16] Matty: What you’re saying makes me think of marketing. Is there being kind of, three aspects of marketing that. Usually elicit very different responses from authors. One is marketing strategy, which I don’t think people object to, but find it very difficult for all the reasons we’ve been saying. One is doing the marketing, which I think many people don’t like because it feels like, you know,

But then there’s the marketing tasks, which can be very, Seductive, you know, to go to for exactly the reason you’re saying. It’s like checking items off a list. I’m like, oh, I made three Canva ads today. You know? Yay. and allowing yourself to get sucked into checking off the tasks rather than continuing to engage with potential readers at that

[00:20:58] Carlo: I agree. And also I like the way you framed it

[00:21:04] Matty: Right, right.

[00:21:05] Carlo: The first two will guide the task. Right.

[00:21:08] Carlo: the other part that I think is difficult for authors is I. You are the brand, you created it. And there’s all different styles. Some people want to be in front of the camera.

I like it. Obviously other people are probably have more humility than I do and they’re like, I’m great at writing. I don’t need that. And that’s okay. but that’s a part of the brand too. Right? and I think folks should, as authors think about like, how do I represent the brand

, because I, what I’ve noticed at least. If you sit down and write a book, it’s very personal. Whether it’s fantasy, nonfiction, or fiction, there’s something in it that’s coming from you to, to spend that kind of time on it. and what I have noticed is that’s what really gets people in my mind, interested to, to give it a go.

Especially when you’re first starting, you got five reviews on Amazon, you’re an indie author, like outside of Family and friends. How do you

[00:22:10] Matty: Yeah.

[00:22:22] Matty: I think another thing this is highlighting this idea of the strategy versus the actual marketing versus the tasks is that ideally marketing should be kind of two way. And so if you’re focused on the task, let’s say you’re cranking out the Canva ads and you’re putting them up on Facebook, then you’re never getting the

That you need on any marketing effort. And the example I can think of for me is that when I was trying to think of a tagline for my, Lizzie Ballard thrillers, the tagline I ended up with, I have to say what I ended up with first, or I’m not going to be able to remember the other one. it’s what happens when an extraordinary, ability transforms an

But what I started with was what happens if an extraordinary power rather than ability, an extraordinary power. I. impact an ordinary life. And what I realized was that people who saw that on Facebook thought it was like, a religious book. You know, when they heard extraordinary power, they thought, you know, this,the power I was talking about was God, not the ability to cause strokes and other people, which is the

And if I had just put that out there and not engaged with. with what people were saying about it that might’ve been out there for months before I realized the harm I was doing for myself. Or people would’ve been leaving reviews saying, you know, I didn’t understand, you know,

so the idea of engaging with people, I think that’s got to be a lesson

[00:23:39] Carlo: It, it’s, it’s, it’s huge. And eliciting feedback. I mean, there’s a reason, in Hollywood and Prestige tv, they do screenings because you catch an audience reaction that, or, and or a feeling that you wouldn’t normally get. Like, I almost have the opposite story. I, and I love that you brought that up, is when we were going through cover design. I was enjoying many versions of it, but then, you know, I was getting feedback from people like, , because I would share it without much context on the book. Just So how does this book make you feel? How does this cover make you feel? That’s it. That was all the question was, well, THE SINS WE INHERIT, is that a religious

What, like what is it about? And I’ll just be honest, I don’t like my tagline, but it makes up. It has a function that’s critical, it’s a mafia legacy and blood with, at least without that, it, you know, it’s kind of floating on what the book actually is. So as much as I kind of poo-pooed genres, it does play an important home in, in targeting.

because otherwise, to your point, using social media to elicit feedback, now you got to be comfortable, you know, taking some hits on, and it’s really important. it’s a tool. that author should use, especially early on. That’s why, having an ARC team and things like that were super

[00:24:56] Matty: Yeah. And if you don’t feel comfortable exposing yourself in that way on, social media, I think it’s a good plug for, starting an email list right away. Because even if you have an email list of seven, you can still send those seven people your potential cover and say, what do you think about this?

And this is good for me to hear because I’m just in the process of, thinking about a redesign for one of my. Series and I am just terrible at falling into the, trap of I love how this cover looks. I’m going to use it regardless, and at least I do it knowing that I am sacrificing sales

I mean, I think some people do it thinking that the cover that they love is going to be the best, the cover that everybody loves. But I’m like, no, I really have to do more market, market solicitation on, the new design.

[00:25:42] Carlo: I struggled with the very same thing , because I’m like, how do I get the father daughter element into it? How do I get this? And it’s just like, you know what the cover is much like, you know, your elevator pitch that, often gets talked about, right? Is you

How do they know to just stop and give it a quick. Preview. And, again, I mean, you know this , because you just said it like, as an author, you spend so much time on it. You want people to appreciate all the complexity that went into your story. but no one’s going to appreciate it if you don’t anchor things in a way where it’s interesting enough for them to read it, you know?

So. Yeah. And that’s hard. Really hard. I struggle with it too.

[00:26:20] Matty: Yeah, I think that, interestingly, I have a friend who writes a series for a, one of the big five, publishers and her covers are very, in fact, this whole imprints covers are all very consistent and all very instantly recognizable on thumbnails and even she will say. What the cover shows rarely has anything to do with

and, but that’s fine. Like nobody is complaining about our covers because the important thing is they glance at that cover in a set of thumbnails and they say, this is going to tell a story that I’m going to love. And they don’t care that there’s a boat on the front when there

I, yeah, I think that one of the real hallmarks of, self-made covers is being way too literal,

[00:27:01] Carlo: Yeah. which is why I didn’t self made make mine, because I knew I’d fall into that trap. I hired a professional to do it and it was a hard. Pill to swallow at first. , because the story’s still personal to me. And I wanted all these great elements and they,

[00:27:16] Matty: Right, right.

[00:27:17] Carlo: It’s supposed to get people to open it

[00:27:19] Matty: Yes,

[00:27:19] Carlo: stop and buy. And, that, that’s one of the decisions that begrudgingly I made. And boy I’ll, I, now everybody’s different. Some people might have that skill. I certainly don’t. but leveraging creatives for creative work visually was really important to

[00:27:35] Matty: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that this is one where now you do have to kind of, As Orna Ross, the Alliance of Independent Author says, the book cover image is not a work of art. It’s a

[00:27:47] Carlo: It’s true. It’s so true.

[00:27:50] Matty: you don’t have to, you do have to kind of now

because you have to make sure that if you think your book is going to sit on the, mafia fiction shelf, that it kind of looks. Identify not the same as but identifiable as the same family as the other books on that

[00:28:08] Carlo: Totally agree. Totally agree. Yeah.

[00:28:11] Matty: So what are, what are some signs that an author might have gotten the order wrong, that they’re thinking about

[00:28:22] Carlo: to me the biggest sign is, and you can practice this in the mirror, you can do whatever is just challenge yourself. If you’re sitting at a bar, grabbing a beer after work and somebody says. Oh, I heard you wrote a novel. What is it about if you’re starting with genre and I wrote it and go buy it, like you probably got it wrong.

I would say that is one, like, can you sum up the essence of the story in seven seconds? So like, and I spent a lot of time on, I noticed like when we started, I didn’t say I wrote a mafia book. I wrote a book about a man Constantino who escaped the life and now it’s come after

If you like X, Y, and ZI think you’ll like this story. And I think that’s a sign that if you can’t do that, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It just means you haven’t spent enough time thinking about it. So I would say that’s one. I would also say, and this is what the business world has taught me, is do you have a plan? Now, that doesn’t mean you need to have, some people are different than others, right? Some people have a calendar with every single tactic they want to do over the course of the, of nine months. I don’t operate that way. I operate in terms of themes. So there, here’s the things leading me up to launch and or things that need to be accomplished to get the story out to resonate, with readers.

I document that all out and I check it weekly and I see if I’m making progress against it and or not. And then you can make adjustments too. So I would think the two big things, one is your elevator pitch, like really, really tight. And second, you put pen to paper to do a hundred thousand words. Did you put pen to paper on how you’re going to

I would say those are the two. If you don’t have those, if you’re capable of writing a book, you’re capable of doing those two things. I would say if you don’t have ’em though, that’s a sign you’re not getting it right. I would also say, I don’t have all the answers to

[00:30:17] Matty: As are we all.

[00:30:18] Carlo: doing better.

Right. So I definitely don’t want it to make it seem like, you know, I’m still on my journey with this stuff. But, those are certainly the things I learned as I, you know, kind of created this thing from scratch. I don’t come from the writing world. I tried to leverage my

[00:30:34] Matty: Yeah.

[00:30:36] Matty: Well, and I think that, the other thing I was thinking is, the, in addition to, making your elevator pitch tight, I think the other. Element that I’m realizing is the importance of enthusiasm. You’re obviously very enthusiastic about your series.

You’re, representing that, the way you describe it, and I realize that what’s missing from the, uh, I have a, a book by it. Um. No, it is no enthusiasm. And I see this even in in-person events. Like the people who are actually enthusiastic about their own book are the ones that attract

Like the perfect example is I. I did an, episode with Todd Fahnestock about selling in person and he was talking about how you can tailor your pitch depending on the response of the person who comes to your table. And I said, well, you know, Todd, give us your pitch. I want to hear what your pitch is. And by the time his pitch was done, I don’t read fantasy, but

He was so excited about them and he was so excited about sharing the experience with you. And I think that the extent of which we can step away from the transactional, I have a book, buy it, and into the sharing the experience of the story, is ideally what we want to do in person, what we want to do on social media, what we want to do when we’re pitching agents who, whatever that exchange might be.

[00:32:00] Carlo: It is that is such a good point and. The thing that I would say is not everybody has to have this like gregarious. I know I’m southern Italian guy, gregarious person. Not everybody has to have that to capture it. What I would say for me was an adjustment but has been effective is I was a very private person before I, I did all

I also struggled a tremendous amount, was showing any level of vulnerability and. What I’ve noticed has been most healthy for me just from a mental health standpoint, but also just getting the word out on the book is just saying, you know what? This came from a very personal

I was worried about losing my family, and it started as a journal. And you know what? I got through all of it. I have a wonderful ex-wife, beautiful kids, and I’m just really proud of the project and just. Verbalizing, you know what? You’re proud of it. That doesn’t mean you’re bragging about it, you’re not saying it’s the best thing in the world, or, you know, it’s, you know, better than a tale of two

But it, it is okay to say, I would just be hard pressed on anybody’s sat down between 60,000, a hundred thousand words, 30 whatever. You have to be proud of it. And there’s nothing about just telling people, you know what, this is personal to me and I’m really proud of it.

[00:33:22] Matty: I love that. I love that as foundational, the experience of sharing their book with other

[00:33:31] Carlo: Yeah.

[00:33:35] Matty: Well, Carlo, thank you so much for, for sharing that perspective. congratulations on the, SINS WE INHERIT, and, congratulations on the upcoming, THE COST WE PAY.

And please let everyone know where they can go to find out more about

[00:33:46] Carlo: Yeah. thank you Matty. So, I would drive most people to my website. It’s THE SINS WE INHERIT.com. It has information about. Obviously the first novel as well as the second one, dropping in June. And then you can follow me on, I’ve had to learn all the social media stuff. So I’m on fa search Sins We Inherit, or my name on

Instagram, TikTok. And then, I have a YouTube channel as well, which gives a lot of like behind the scenes backstory, some of the personal things we discussed today. So if you’re interested in learning more, please check it out. And obviously the novels on Amazon as well as

[00:34:21] Matty: Great. Thank you so much.

[00:34:22] Carlo: Thank you, Matty.

Episode 333 - From Data to Discovery: ALLi's Indie Author Bookstore with Melissa Addey

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Melissa Addey discusses FROM DATA TO DISCOVERY: ALLi's INDIE AUTHOR BOOKSTORE, including what three years of income surveys reveal about indie versus traditional publishing earnings, how ALLi's new Indie Author Bookstore works as a curated shop window for thousands of indie books, what browsing thousands of listings has taught Melissa about cover quality and metadata mistakes, how AI search rewards books listed on multiple platforms, and why self-publishing is becoming plan A instead of plan B for a new generation of authors.

Melissa Addey is the Campaigns and Bookstore Lead for the Alliance of Independent Authors. She writes historical fiction and has her own website at melissaaddey.com but right now she’s very excited about the ALLi Indie Author Bookstore and bringing it into the world! And she also has an update for us on the 2025 Indie Author Income Survey.

Episode Links

https://bookstore.allianceindependentauthors.org

https://www.allianceindependentauthors.org

https://www.melissaaddey.com/

Melissa’s previous appearances:

Episode 238 - The Big Indie Author Data Drop 2024 with Melissa Addey

Episode 150 - Hands-off Merchandising for Authors with Melissa Addey

Companion episode:

Episode 233 - Data-Driven Publishing with Pamela Fagan Hutchins

Summary & Transcript

Melissa Addey is the campaigns and bookstore lead for the Alliance of Independent Authors (ALLi) and a historical fiction writer. In this conversation, Melissa traced a line from three years of ALLi’s data collection—including the indie author income survey and industry-wide research—to the launch of the ALLi Indie Author Bookstore, a curated online showcase that gives indie-published books a browsable home of their own.

THE DATA THAT SET THE STAGE

Melissa opened by describing a gap she found startling when she moved from a business background into publishing: the near-total absence of reliable data about self-published authors. ALLi began filling that gap in 2023 with its indie author income survey, and the headline finding was significant—self-published authors were earning more than traditionally published authors. Authors Guild data released later that year confirmed the result to within a couple of hundred dollars. By 2025, the mean income for self-published authors had risen to $13,500, growing at six percent year over year, while traditionally published authors were earning nearly half that and declining.

Other data points reinforced the picture. Direct sales among indie authors had grown from twelve percent to thirty percent in three years, with another thirty percent planning to start. Data from Author Earnings showed that self-published authors made up over fifty percent of Kindle’s top 400 books, captured thirty-nine percent of Kindle royalties, and—crucially—were rated by readers as equal in quality to traditionally published work.

GENERATIONAL SHIFTS

Melissa highlighted two generational trends. Gen Z readers are reading more, particularly in paperback, and actively seeking diverse stories and storytellers. Meanwhile, younger authors—those under forty-five—are increasingly choosing self-publishing as their first option rather than treating it as a fallback after failing to land a traditional deal. Melissa attributed this in part to how younger creators view content production generally: they see indie bands, YouTube channels, and self-published books as equivalent to their traditionally produced counterparts, not as lesser alternatives.

AI AND DISCOVERABILITY

Melissa cited a talk by Ricardo Fayet at the Self Publishing Show about how AI is changing search. AI crawlers fan out across the internet looking for consistency—if they find the same book, title, cover, and metadata in multiple places, they rank it higher. That insight became one of the practical arguments for the bookstore: having books listed on an additional platform beyond Amazon, Kobo, and an author’s own website gives AI search engines more data points to work with, which improves discoverability.

THE BOOKSTORE AS SHOP WINDOW

The ALLi Indie Author Bookstore launched after two years of planning and currently lists around 5,500 books, with hundreds more added each week. Melissa described it not as a retailer but as a shop window: readers can browse by genre, format, and tags, and when they find a book they want, the purchase link takes them to whatever destination the author has chosen—Amazon, Kobo, their own direct sales page, or any other retailer. Authors load their metadata once and do not need to maintain pricing or inventory the way they would on a retail platform.

The homepage features new releases (showcased for six months), randomly generated books of the day, and three rotating monthly theme sections that highlight genres, formats, or categories where indie authors are particularly strong. Melissa singled out memoirs as an example: traditional publishers only acquire memoirs from celebrities, but indie publishing has opened the door to ordinary people with extraordinary stories—a NASA employee, a hospice worker, a spy.

The bookstore is available only to ALLi members, which Melissa framed as a feature rather than a limitation. It means every author on the platform is part of the ALLi community, making it easy to find collaborators for newsletter swaps, social media cross-promotion, and other partnership opportunities through ALLi’s SelfPubConnect forum. Authors can also browse award-winning books in their category to identify awards worth entering.

WHAT THE BOOKSTORE REVEALS ABOUT COVERS AND METADATA

Having reviewed the bookstore daily since its November launch, Melissa offered candid observations about what indie authors are getting right and wrong. On covers, she gave high marks to thriller, crime, sci-fi, and fantasy authors for tight genre signaling—their covers are instantly recognizable and consistently professional. Historical fiction, her own genre, was more uneven. Poetry covers, she felt, were missing an opportunity to lean into the beauty and aesthetics that poetry readers would expect.

On metadata, Melissa’s biggest frustration was authors cramming in every possible genre tag rather than choosing one or two that accurately describe their book. The result is that readers searching for a specific genre encounter books that do not belong, which produces an unpleasant reaction rather than a happy discovery. She singled out “literary fiction” as the most frequently misused tag—authors treat it as a marker of quality rather than recognizing it as its own genre with its own conventions. Her advice was blunt: one accurate genre tag is worth more than ten aspirational ones, and the cover needs to match.

A SHIFTING INDUSTRY

Melissa closed by noting that the data and the bookstore together reflect a broader shift in the publishing industry. Traditional publishers are beginning to approach successful indie authors directly, offering dashboards with real-time sales data—a transparency that would have been unthinkable a few years ago but is now necessary to attract authors who have been tracking their own daily sales for a decade. The indie author world, she suggested, is not just growing but reshaping the expectations of the entire industry.

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This transcript was created by Descript and cleaned up by Claude; I don’t review these transcripts in detail, so consider the actual interview to be the authoritative source for this information.

[00:00:00] Matty: Hello and welcome to the Indy Author Podcast. Today my guest is Melissa Addey. Hey, Melissa, how are you doing?

[00:00:05] Melissa: Hi. I’m good. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:07] Matty: It is lovely to have you back, and just to give our listeners and viewers a little bit of background on you, Melissa Addey is the campaigns and bookstore lead for the Alliance of Independent Authors. She writes historical fiction and has her own website@MelissaAddey.com. But right now she’s very excited about the

And she also has an update for us on the 2025 Indie author. Income survey. And so we were chatting,a little bit about this before I hit record. And these things are like more intertwined than, I think I appreciated when we talked about the topic. So Melissa, I’m just going to kind of open the stage to you and let you tell us what is going on

[00:00:45] Melissa: Great.

[00:00:52] Melissa: So what I do is sort of set the context a little bit. So I’m very excited about the bookstore. We’ll get to that, but just a little bit of context of why that would be a good thing to have. So, the first thing is going, back through the last three years really, ALLi has been collecting a lot of data.

so either through their own, indie author income survey, which, was a huge. Gap of data prior to those, so that was back in 2023, they started, and there was this real gap in the industry. So I came from a business background and it was unthinkable that you didn’t have data at

You know, should the director meet you in their lift or something, you were expected to have everything right there. And I came into the industry and I was like, uh, where, where is all the data? Where, why do we not have. Stuff like this. And ALLi started, first of all doing its own indie author income survey, which is great.

But then on top of that, reaching out across the industry to anyone that could share data, share information, share insights, so, all kinds of organizations. Also people doing their PhDs on self-publishing, all kinds of things like that. And gathering it together in a report each year. So that’s been really interesting as well to look at.

[00:01:51] Melissa: So I just thought I’d go through a few of the, sort of the big highlights that have, come out over the past years. the biggest one was that self-published authors earn more than traditionally published authors. And that came out in 2023, was backed up by Authors Guild data, which also came out later that year.

And that was the first time they’d split their data. So you could see, that their data was proving exactly the same thing to within like a couple of hundred dollars. It was very neatly matched. and. On top of that. So they were, at the time, they were running at about \$12,000, I think, and growing.

and then in 2025, ALLi redid the data and it’s now \$13,500, and running at 6%. Increase, year on year, which is, sounds low-ish. that is a mean number. So it’s trying to get an average kind of picture of it. So not the crazy outliers that have, are, you know, like made their millions,

But you know that, that what is the sort of established area for the middle authors if you like. And that’s an interesting piece of data organizations, looking at traditionally published authors, they were

[00:03:06] Melissa: Other things that have come out in the last three years that are interesting. One is a lot more authors are selling direct. So the first time we looked at that data, it was about 12%. And you could say those were the real outliers. These were people who were really looking ahead and everybody else was kind of going, oh, not sure

And the last set of data we saw was that 30% were selling direct and another 30% were planning to in the next year. And that might be just. Just starting, just dipping their toe in the water. Or it might be just doing a lot of it, but that’s really grown in three years. It’s

there was a really interesting talk from, Ricardo Fayetet at last year’s, Self Publishing Show who talked about how AI is changing the way search engines are going to be working, and there was a really important thing that he said there, which I have been very mindful of myself personally, in

The AI fans out across the internet doing searches, and it looks for, am I finding the same data over and over again? So the more it finds your book in multiple places, the same book, the same title, the same cover, the same everything, the more, it kind of ranks it higher and more important. So it sees it as, oh, that is definitely a book that I should

And I thought that was a fascinating, piece of information.

[00:04:25] Melissa: we had some heartening news, which was that Gen Z are reading a lot, especially in paperback. They like the aesthetics of it. They like libraries to gather in and meet up and that kind of thing. That’s what was encouraging when you think the young people are going to be reading lots, so

[00:04:38] Matty: That was fun to see.

[00:04:39] Melissa: Yeah, definitely. But also that they really wanted to read more diverse stories, and by that they meant diversity of the characters, diversity of the situations. So they clearly were deliberately looking for a di, a wider. Range of stories and storytellers, so that’s interesting to know. And still sticking with

The younger authors are making self-publishing their first choice. It always used to be plan B. Self-publishing is plan B first. You try for trad, then you, oh, well all right then. And it’s really changing. And under 45, there were fewer than half the authors that would like to have

They were just going straight into the tradition, into the self-publishing arena. And I think that’s. Partly because of how I think younger creators view. Creating content. You know, they look at YouTube, which is to them is the same as tv. They don’t ra rank it higher than, you know, they don’t, they look at indie bands and they

and so then they look at books and they. They apply the same thinking. They go, I don’t see the difference. The book is the book. You know? so that’s an interesting thing. So it’s now kind of becoming plan A instead of plan B, which is good to know.

[00:05:55] Melissa: and then Data Guy / AuthorEarnings always fascinating their data.

they have shown that cell published authors. So this was in the, Kindle’s top 400 books, which shadow, we don’t have the date of all more recently, but in 2023, a self-published author has made up over 50% of that. So that was an interesting thing to see. and then, so that’s the kind of, the quantity if you like, but also Data Guy / AuthorEarnings looked at.

The quality. and they looked at 39% of Kindle royalties were going to indie authors, but also that their books were being rated by the readers. So looking at the reviews, they were being rated equally in quality. So the readers are not saying there’s a difference in quality

So that, that’s all interesting data I feel from the last three years, which has sort of sets a bit of a context, if you like.

[00:06:44] Melissa: And then the idea of a bookstore.

[00:06:47] Matty: Look at you. So excited.

[00:06:48] Melissa: I know it’s, well, it’s because, so it was about a couple of years ago now. but again, there isn’t somewhere, you know, if you go to Amazon or any of the big retailers and there is no button to press to say, can you just show me the indie authors only,

There isn’t that. So I would always, you know, get excited and enthused about self-publishing to people. And then they go, right and. Like, who, who should I read? And I would sort of start stumbling because I don’t have, for every genre that you might be interested in an instant, you know, list of self-published authors.

There’s a few for particular genres that I like and that I focus on. and so I, I’d always feel a bit of a loss at that point that I couldn’t, there wasn’t somewhere obvious for me to direct people to. and so then ALLi started thinking about wouldn’t it be cool if we had. a bookstore, essentially like a showcase online.

and it’s taken two years. That’s how long it takes. If you’re planning by the way, to set up stuff like that. It takes a lot of planning and a lot of tweaking, the little glitches and whatever along

[00:07:59] Melissa: However, we now have the indie author bookstore, which is very exciting. so there’s thousands of books on

At the moment, there’s 5,500 books, and it’s growing very quickly. So every week there’s hundreds more books coming on. And it’s great , because they’re all in one place. Lots of different genres and it allows you to direct people and go, well, if you want to go and have a look at thousands of indie authored books, which are going to be whatever genre you pick, there will be something that you like.

Go have a look through that and browse. So it’s a wonderful place for readers to have a look. it’s been very exciting, sort of bringing it into the world. so we started with a kind of soft launch where we were, and by the way, I always recommend soft launches to people for books and

You start with gentle and you work your way in and try and fix any little glitches along the way, but it’s looking really nice now. We’re very proud of it. so on there, what we have now is, so if you go into the homepage, there’s the new releases. So they get, a six month kind of opportunity to be showcased at the top because that’s always interesting to see what’s just new and what’s just coming out.

And then there’s kind of books of the day and they get randomly generated. Sadly, you can’t bribe me with chocolate. I was hoping that you could bribe me with chocolate, but you can’t.

[00:09:08] Matty: have to talk to the right techie people to make

[00:09:11] Melissa: that’s a point. I need to chat to them. So there’s, it’s a randomly generated, books of the day, so that changes

and then we have three sections that are,we sort of talk about our banners, but the like three sections where we showcase different themes each month. So, we do that by different things. So it might be genres, so like romance, or it could be a combination of genres. So we did a

Fiction and poetry and nonfiction, all just children’s things together, which was quite fun. formats. So we are doing an audiobook one. That was a nice one to be able to do, just to show if you wanted to look at audiobook, , because that’s rising a lot in the indie world as well.

[00:09:51] Melissa: and then also, it’s been interesting being

And it’s interesting to see what indies are really. Good at, if you like, that I don’t think get as much attention from traditional publishing. So right now on the indie page, one of the things we have is, memoirs. Now memoirs in traditional publishing, you only get chosen if you’re like a mega galactic celebrity, right?

That’s the only way you’re getting your memoir done. But these are stories about ordinary people who have led very interesting lives. I was looking through it today. You’ve got people who’ve worked for nasa, people who’ve been in hospices, people who’ve worked in the army,

There’s a woman there who’s a spy. I was like, whoa, this is fun. sorry. And so I think some of those, it’s really interesting to think, well, what’s been left outta traditional publishing? and I think some of these stories of. Ordinary people, they’re not very ordinary, but they would never get chosen because they’re not a big celeb.

And yet they have really interesting stories to tell. So I think that’s been a really interesting thing to come out of self-publishing. So that’s one. and then also looking at where have indie authors really just come in and. Done so well in particular genres. And of course we

They’ve done super well in, the thrillers and the crime kind of areas. So that’s been interesting as well to see, you know, how well they’ve

[00:11:18] Melissa: So with the bookstore now, that means that you’ve got all these in one place so that you can direct readers to it

So that’s something that, we’re doing now. ALLi is trying to. Bring it to the attention of not just the industry, but book influencers, readers, all of those kind of people, to bring them to that book site and start looking at it. And then we’ve sort of looked at what, how you can use it for marketing, how you can, how individual authors can use it

One is, at the end of the day, it’s a smaller platform. It is not Amazon. It is not. Kobo, you know, it is a smaller platform and that means you get a bit more visibility on there. Also, you’re not being swamped by, you know, millions and millions of AI titles, which are being dumped onto Amazon faster than you can, whatever.

so at the moment that means that you’ve got that slightly, you know, that smaller, group, but better visibility, I feel. So that’s a really nice thing to be able to have on there. That thing I talked about with Ricardo Fayet talking about AI discoverability, this is an additional platform. This is reinforcing when that AI search goes out and is looking, not just having your books in one place, but in multiple places means that it’s a, it is able to go out and pick up those books more

As higher ranked because they’re in multiple places. So that’s been a useful thing. it’s really nice for indie authors to be able to go on there and find collaborators because the indie author world has always been very collaborative. you know, things like where you do newsletter swaps, you know, mention people on your socials work together, those

It’s a really nice thing. , because there you can go on there and you know that everybody on there is an indie author and you could look within your own genre and go, well I want to reach out to so and so and say, you know, how about it? Should we do something together to promote?

Also, this is something I used to do on Amazon, but I mean, Amazon’s tricky because you don’t know which authors you’re looking at really. And this is a better match, is awards and opportunities. So We have award-winning books, that’s one of the tags that you can put on. so that means you can go in there and look, well, what have other people

And would it be suitable for me to enter? And you don’t have to worry. Do they take in these, do they not take in these, you know, they take in these , because that’s an indie author and they want it so. That’s been exciting to see and to think, oh, okay, so maybe that’s something you can use for your own development is to look at what awards have been won

Is that something that you could go for as well? So that’s been something that I’ve been, talking to people that they could consider

so it’s essentially a really big. Kind of visibility showcase of what indie authors are getting up to today, which is really exciting to have it all in one place, I feel.

[00:14:07] Matty: Well the, I think that the showcase aspect is important because, correct me if I’m wrong, but this is not a platform where you’re selling people, direct people to other. Platforms, which I think is great because, you know, I think that if people didn’t realize that, they might say, oh, like yet another platform where I have to

But actually once you load it, assuming your like book cover doesn’t change or your description doesn’t change, or that meta data doesn’t change, you’re not having to maintain it and pricing and things like that on an ongoing basis like you do if you have your book on Kobo or

[00:14:41] Melissa: yeah, exactly. So all the authors, essentially, it’s a, it’s like a, it’s a shop window, so you can look at it, you can browse through it, and at the moment where you go, you know, I really like the sound of that, I’m going to buy it. Every author provides their own purchase link to wherever they wish to purchase from.

Which can be the big retailers. It can also be the direct selling because we know that the direct selling is building up. So that can be something that they can work into. so yeah, it just means they just put the purchase link of their choice and that’s where the reader goes to make that actual, the actual buying point is dealt with by somebody

[00:15:17] Matty: And the other thing I believe, is that this is

[00:15:23] Melissa: members? Yes.

[00:15:25] Matty: And I like that idea of pairing activity in the, bookstore with, the ALLi Member Forum, self Pub Connect, because that’s where it’s very easy to go from looking at the bookstore and you see the person who has a book that you want to comment on, or you want to collaborate with them or something like that, then you just pop over to

[00:15:46] Melissa: Yeah. So you know that they’re in that community and that they’re around you and you know, that does mean you can go and find that person and say, who did you cover? Or, you know, loving the whatever it is you’ve done with it, and where did you get this person from, or where do you get that person from?

It’s a really nice way of collaborating more closely, I think, which is nice. and it is a, it is, you know, going back to that. Thing about the Gen Z, wanting more diverse stories. This is a place where they can go and poke around and find those diverse stories and storytellers, I think, which is really nice.

And are you using metadata that the authors provide in order to create those groupings? like you had, described the sort of the, features of the month or features of a particular period. Yes. So we picked, a set of genres which go across, fiction, nonfiction, and poetry. And then we chose, some additional tags, if you like, for particular themes that we thought might be relevant. That we might be able to draw attention to. And also obviously the formats, that kind of thing as well, and the

So certain, there’s certain pieces of data that we ask for that we knew might make good showcases that might be relevant to, to highlight to people. So yeah, so that’s been a nice thing. We don’t go as granular as some of the bigger retailers, just because it’s a smaller group of titles. So we keep the genres a little wider so we don’t go all the way down to, you know, mafia, billionaire romance kind of thing.

It’s. A little wider than that. but yeah, it’s been a, it’s been a fun thing to, to work on.

[00:17:14] Melissa: and then the other thing that’s, a new piece of data that’s come out. So, we run the indie author income survey, that got run last year. So we had a whole bunch of data come out from

But then we sort of do a second pass of it where we ask for further data

[00:17:29] Melissa: and one of the data pieces that came out of that, that I found really interesting was about, selective rights licensing, otherwise known as using, like a traditional publisher but

Individual sections of it that you might, be interested in. So something has really changed over the past. So I’ve been in this since 2015 ish. So it’s really interesting to me because at that time when I spoke to people about self-publishing, I basically used to have to say it’s kind

If you pick to self-publish the traditional authors, you know, the traditional, publishers rather. Are going to see that as that’s it. You, we’re never going to take you again , because you’ve chosen and you’ve gone that way. and that has changed. And I could see it changing

I could hear stories that made me doubt that was really the case anymore. And then in the last. Two months, I’ve suddenly seen a whole set of stories that are all in, you know, trade publishing. So Publishers Weekly, the bookseller, publishing perspectives, whole bunch of stories and interviews where I go, oh, that’s interesting.

[00:18:42] Melissa: So in a way, self-publishing is now being used as a kind of proof of concept. It’s being used as a proving ground. So you self-publish. We’ll see if it works. We’ll see if you work creatively, if you work commercially, if you can build up the readers and then we come in and ask the traditional publishers, come knocking on your door and go, hang on.

[00:19:06] Melissa: And the data that came out on that was interesting for us was, I think I stuck it in one of my data books so that I could refer back to it. But the interesting thing there was how much you could see the link between how much an author was making and the percentage amount, therefore likelihood that they were going to have

For something we don’t have the sort of granular, what is it exactly you are doing, but generally selective rights. so that was a real kind of clear points of interest. So under \$50,000 bracket of, in terms of your revenue as a self-published author, there’s around about 20% of the authors. Had a self pub, had a traditional publishing deal as well

as soon as they went over that \$50,000, it jumped up to 30% of the authors. So now we’ve got quite a chunk of people who have got those licensing deals. As soon as you go over a hundred k, the jump went to over 46%. And then when you get over 500 K, essentially it was 90%. And by that point it was quite clear to us, if you don’t have a licensing deal and you’re making that kind of revenue, it’s you, it’s been your

it’s, you have said no thank you. It’s not , because someone hasn’t

[00:20:23] Melissa: , because that means, you know, for example, I was talking about the bookstore to people and saying, oh, and then we’re going to reach out and tell publishers as well in the industry, and

what do they want to know about that for? Well, , because it’s a shop window. This is a shop window. If they’re coming looking for, oh, what might be interesting licensing rights to try and secure this becomes a shop window essentially, where they can look and see. These are the

they’ve got really interesting things to look at. It becomes something that’s also a potential marketing place. For those authors to showcase themselves. So that was really interesting to consider how much that has changed. and then, you know, you can argue all day long the ethics of, oh, I see.

You just wait for somebody else to put all their time and money and effort behind something before you swoop in and pick it up. That’s, you know, but then it’s up to the authors to think about, okay, and how do I make the best of that opportunity? Rather than just wholesale handing over all the rights right at the beginning without knowing how you’re

All you build up and at the point where somebody approaches you, you can think about, right, and is that going to. Do better for me than I’m doing myself. Is it, which elements might I benefit from? So, for example, bookshops have always been a little harder for self-published authors because the logistics and the communications of those have

That’s just how it’s set up. So yes, you can go individually, bookstore by bookstore and try and get your way in there, but it’s difficult because it’s just not set up that way. It’s not set up for you. So. You know, that’s a moment where if somebody approached you, you could think about would it be useful to put out certain, you know, choose those rights to license out, that might take care of certain areas that I find more difficult while holding onto the areas that I’m

You know, eBooks always going to be one of those. so that’s just, it’s just interesting to see how the data. Keeps developing what the opportunities are and how it changes the narrative over time. that’s been quite, you know, surprising to go from, oh, we’re just hearing stories here and there to going, no, no.

This is now a clear, obvious thing to everybody in the industry. and

[00:22:46] Matty: Yeah, I do like that idea of working Across RAD and Indie as partnerships rather than, like, poaching, you know,

[00:22:54] Melissa: Yes.

[00:22:55] Matty: and I like the idea of, you know, on the surface having an indie author bookstore feels like. for good reasons you’re

But I love that idea that it’s also providing this path for, people. I’ve even gotten away from saying traditional publishers and saying third party publishers because ba you know, in many cases the difference is just, it’s somebody else making the decisions and giving them a place to go because they think one of the challenges and I, the more I sort of muck around in the publishing world, the more I appreciate the

Traditional platforms have legitimate concerns about vetting. Like I know when, I was working for ALLi, there was this conversation about how do we get awards to open up to indies? And on the one hand, it’s not a quality issue. You know, there are plenty of indies writing award-winning worthy works, but it’s a vetting issue.

And if I were running An award and I had relationships with the Big Five and I knew that each Big Five publisher, I’m making up how this works, but each Big five publisher was going to nominate five of their books or something like that. That’s much more manageable than 10,000 indie publishers are going to, you know, nominate

[00:24:07] Melissa: because someone’s done the work for you.

[00:24:08] Matty: Yes, yes, exactly.

[00:24:10] Melissa: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. and I think that, like you say that concept of third party publishers almost becoming a publishing service. In the same way that you would reach out and find yourself a good editor and a good cover designer and a good marketing person, you might reach out and find yourself a publishing person that

And I think that’s, that becomes a sort of new aspect of it.

[00:24:45] Melissa: And certainly in the articles that I’m seeing, there’s also mention of two things. One is the contracts needing to change. , because contracts used to be very boilerplate. they were. Cookie cuts are just identical things. And now they’re having to

Because if you are going to work with someone who’s already got a thriving business, they’re not going to just accept your cookie cutter template. They’re going to go, nope. yes and nope, and change that. And, you know, and they’re not going to accept the first thing that they see. So that

And the other one was, looking at, there’s a. A new publisher was launching who were deliberately focused on what they called established authors, and they mentioned both traditionally and self-published. So they’re wanting people who are already up and running and know what they’re doing, and they were providing them with what they called their

Now, that’s not something that any traditional publisher has ever shown their authors. That’s been a lack of transparency in their industry, and it’s having to change because if you’re talking to someone who’s looked at their daily sales every day for the past 10 years, they’re not going to accept you just drawing a veil over it and going, I’m sorry,

That’s. That’s not going to work. And so it really interesting to see the traditional publishing world having to alter how it works as well to be able to work with self-published author and being willing to do so. So that’s been, you know, a real change, I think is shifting there, real

[00:26:13] Matty: So because you have been working with, you now have this pool of thousands of, indie published books that are coming in and being put on the showcase. are there any lessons you’re learning, like messages you would like to send to people who are now enthusiastic about joining ALLi and putting their books up about things that the indie authors can be working on in order to make their books more compelling to the people who are, browsing the window?

[00:26:36] Melissa: Yeah, so one is get yourself up there and I think, you know, that goes for all, you know, obviously would love it on the bookstore, but equally it’s with all those opportunities. Set aside that little bit of time and get them up there. So I get people who are sort of, oh yeah, yeah, I’ll do it in a bit.

I’ll, yeah, something, you know, I’ve got other things to do, whatever. But you know, the days go by and you don’t know which people are coming onto the platform, and that might have found you interesting. And this goes for all such opportunities. And equally, a friend of mine recently, she texted me and she went, oh cool, the bookstore great.

And she’s an ALLi member. So she was like, how do I get the books up there? And I was like, oh, I’ll send you the, I’ll send you the information tomorrow. But it did come out in an email. She was like, okay, great. And then like 20 minutes later, she goes, yeah, all done. And I was like, oh, that was fast. but the thing is.

She sat down and gave it that time. So that’s, you know, that’s something when you see those opportunities crack on with them is one thing. They’re usually less fiercesome than they seem, you know, just

[00:27:43] Melissa: So that’s one thing really interesting for me because I have basically opened up that bookstore and looked at it every single day since November now, and, you know, check people’s covers,

Had a look at what happens when you know, what happens if you do this search or that search or the other search. Really interesting. Who has different kinds of covers? I will give tip of the hat to thrillers, crime, sci-fi and fantasy, who really have their act together as a group. You know, when I’m looking at them as a whole, really, genre is

you can spot their stuff a mile away and you go, oh, that is absolutely a thriller or crime or sci-fi fantasy. Very sharp, very Of a group, you know, which is kind of important. so they’re very on their genre, nice work too. Nice covers quality looking stuff. the sci-fi and fantasy people, partly because of their, of what they’re writing about, have some really quirky, interesting stuff going on with, you know, the dragons and the, you know, all the crazy things that might be going on in their

But they really lean into that. They really go for some nice, interesting artwork. So. I am liking those. sadly for my own historical fiction category, we, you’re not fairing as well. it’s a little bit up and down. There’s some that are really, really beautiful covers, you know, really, on genre.

Holding it, you know, getting a consistent look and then somewhere it kind of dips in and out a bit. And you feel like this as a whole genre are not as tightly woven as those other ones I’ve just mentioned. So they’re interesting poetry I really feel are missing a trick a little bit. I feel that people who enjoy poetry and the beauty of words and really thinking about things would really appreciate covers.

That are beautiful. You know that, that real sense of beauty going for, and they’re a little bit mixed as well. There is not that, that, leaning into that. It’s a bit, some people have gone for this style and some people have gone for that style. And as a whole, you kind of lack coherency because when I run a search for poetry, I’m expecting to see.

Possibly very different images, but a consistency of we’re trying to put something really beautiful in front of you. That’s what I would be expecting to see, and that’s lacking a little bit. So I’d talk to those two genres I think need a little bit to, to really focus.

[00:30:00] Melissa: And then in terms of your metadata, this has been fascinating, but in terms of your metadata, people’s desire to

Every possible tag genre genres they don’t really belong to, but they’re sort of teetering on the edge of, and I just, I have to keep repeating to people, it is better to have one genre, you know, we allow three on ours, but it is better to have one that is absolutely 100% your correct genre than to cram in, you know, five, six.

I’ve made nine 10 of them that have nothing to do with you because. When I, the reader, then run a search and I’m looking for this particular thing. When your book pops up, I don’t go, oh, well look at that, something completely different. I’ll go and look at that. I just go. Well, I don’t know what that’s doing there.

it’s almost, an unpleasant reaction it provokes because that’s not what you are looking for. And equally that means you might then have missed a genre that is truly yours and that you truly belong to and that you should be part of. and that’s where you should make sure that your

This, I belong here, I belong to this group. So that’s, and of course your cover then looks completely wrong as well. It’s not just the search was wrong. Your cover doesn’t match at all if you’ve put it

[00:31:25] Matty: the even worse scenario than someone scanning the list and says, oh, that’s not for me, is they think it is for them because it’s in this genre. So it must be for them. They buy it, they read it, and they live you a one star review because

[00:31:37] Melissa: No.

[00:31:38] Matty: like, I found this in cozy mystery, but like somebody got, you know, killed with baseball bats in the first page.

[00:31:45] Melissa: Exactly. So it’s a real mistake. And I keep, you know, because people, because I’m on the admin side, people will, if they get stuck or they’re not quite sure, they’ll send me an email, which I is great , because that’s what I’m there for. They’ll send me something and they’ll go, well, I can’t find one in this bit that

So, so what do I do about that? And you know, a few of them, I’m like, well, that is a fair point. Perhaps, you know, we should adjust something. But most of them I go, but you don’t need to have all of those. It’s fine. You don’t have to find something here so long as you

You know, it’s fine. And so it’s a good thing that I have my own books , because I’m able to go back to ’em and go, well, you know, some of my books have extra tags on and some of them don’t. They just, they don’t

[00:32:29] Melissa: but my favorite is,and I’m really going to tell

So everybody has taken to using literary fiction. I think that in their minds equals. Good quality, or I did a lot of research, or, you know, I put a lot of time and effort into it or something that’s what they think it means. I’m like, no, it’s its own genre. It has its own style and rules and whatever, and you just ticking that because you think

That’s not what it means at all. so you have to be a little bit careful with that. And equally, you know, I mean, that’s my favorite one because everybody tries to do it, but things like romance. You know, I try to point this out to people. Lots of my books have a bit of a romantic streaking , because I’m a romantic at heart that does not make

You know, romance people, they have particular rules they’re expecting you to follow. And if you know, end up with a tragic loft story that goes horribly wrong at the end, the fact that there was romance in there, they’re going to be horrified by that. So, again, you know, be,

And your cover on point then to, to try and cram yourself into whoever it doesn’t, doesn’t really work for you, works against you, if

it’s no good labeling your stuff as that if it isn’t. It just, it’s not going to work at all. and it’s just confusing. It makes it confusing for people if you are going to go down that route. It’s better to talk about what themes it has, because people who are attracted to literary fiction often want to know the theme something has rather than the plot

You know, they’re more focused on that aspect of it, perhaps. but yeah, it’s been fascinating to be. Both a reader and an author, but you know, normally I’m reader and author. And then to look behind what happens on what is essentially a bookstore, you know, is really interesting to see, oh, what goes into that?

What goes into trying to list it correctly, trying to showcase it correctly, how, you know, which bits could go well together. You know,

[00:34:34] Matty: Yeah, that is a great perspective to, uh, to be

[00:34:39] Matty: So, Melissa, thank you so much for coming on to talk about both the Author Income Survey and the new bookstore. so please let everyone know where they can go to find out about all those

[00:34:50] Melissa: Absolutely. So it’s bookstore dot AllianceIndependentAuthors.org. So fairly straightforward and, AllianceIndependentAuthors.org if you wish to join as a member. But there’s information about that on the bookstore itself, so you can pick that up easily There. I. My own website is MelissaAddey.com.

but yeah, go and have a look at the bookstore. Go and have a little browse whether you are a reader or an author. I’m getting into it more as a reader now , because I was very kind of admin on it at the beginning. I was very kinda, what is it doing? What is the thing? What is the something? And now that it’s, you know, working well, I can look at it and go, Ooh, ooh, I fancy that.

[00:35:24] Matty: Yes. I remember many, many years ago working in a bookstore and, one of the perks was, I can’t believe this was a perk, but you could borrow hardcover books as long as you returned them, like

[00:35:35] Melissa: condition.

[00:35:36] Matty: I did more reading in those that like half a year, however long I was working in the bookstore.

[00:35:41] Melissa: You couldn’t break the spine there. You couldn’t get a good crack open,

[00:35:44] Matty: No, no. You had to be very, very careful with

[00:35:47] Melissa: old plum. It’s a pleasure. Thank you very

[00:35:51] Matty: Oh, my pleasure.

Episode 319 - How and Why to Market Nonfiction Before You Write with Karen Williams

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Karen Williams discusses HOW AND WHY TO MARKET NONFICTION BEFORE YOU WRITE, including how nonfiction book marketing can start before a single word is written, why early audience research and conversation-based marketing strengthen book positioning, and how authors can use podcasts, surveys, content repurposing, and community building to create demand in advance. They also discuss treating a nonfiction book as part of a larger business and thought-leadership strategy rather than a standalone product.

Karen Williams is The Book Mentor at Librotas. She helps business owners, experts, and thought leaders write and publish authority-building books that elevate their credibility and grow both their business and brand. The author of 10 books, including Your Book is the Hook and Book Marketing Made Simple, Karen takes her clients from messy first idea to final manuscript and successful launch – with a focus on strategy, structure, and making sure their book truly works for them. She’s a TEDx speaker and host of the Business Book Bites podcast.

Episode Links

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/karenwilliamslibrotas/

https://www.instagram.com/karenwilliamslibrotas/

https://www.youtube.com/@librotas

Mentioned in episode:

https://librotas.com/indyauthor 

Summary

In this episode of The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Karen Williams about marketing nonfiction books in ways that support the writing process, build authority, and integrate naturally into a broader business ecosystem. Their conversation challenges the idea that marketing starts at launch and instead frames book marketing as something that can—and should—begin long before a manuscript is finished.

WHY NONFICTION MARKETING STARTS EARLY
Karen explains that her path into nonfiction began when writing her first book changed her business trajectory, even before she fully understood publishing or marketing. That experience shaped her belief that authors can begin “marketing” simply by talking about what they are working on. She argues that authors can market a nonfiction book before writing it by having conversations, testing ideas, and building interest early. These conversations help confirm that there is a real audience and a real need for the book. As she notes, many authors write large portions of a manuscript before checking whether there is a market for it, missing an opportunity to validate the idea early.

Matty emphasizes that this approach benefits not only marketing but also content creation. By discussing ideas with potential readers, authors can clarify their focus, identify gaps, and shape the book around real questions and challenges. Both agree that whether the author is writing fiction or nonfiction, “the earlier the better” when it comes to sharing the journey and engaging readers.

USING CONVERSATIONS AS CONTENT AND MARKET RESEARCH
Karen outlines practical ways authors can gather insights while developing a book. These include asking questions on social media, surveying mailing lists, hosting informal conversations, or conducting interviews. These activities do not need to be formal; they can happen anywhere people naturally talk. The goal is to learn what readers want to know, what problems they are facing, and what outcomes they are seeking.

Matty describes how podcasts, interviews, or recorded conversations can serve multiple purposes. They can become marketing content, research material, and even source material for the book itself. Karen shares that her own podcast series is intentionally designed to generate conversations that feed into her next book. With permission, insights and quotes from those conversations can be reused, credited, and integrated into the manuscript.

Both stress the importance of being clear with contributors. Authors should explain upfront how material may be used and avoid implying coauthorship unless that is genuinely the case. When handled transparently, these conversations can strengthen relationships, provide accountability, and move a project forward.

THE HIDDEN BENEFITS OF SAYING “I’M WRITING A BOOK”
Karen notes that simply telling people you are writing a book can elevate how others perceive you professionally. Even before publication, the act of articulating ideas and positioning yourself around a topic can increase credibility and focus. Writing a book often deepens an author’s expertise because it requires research, synthesis, and clarity. As Karen puts it, authors often “go deeper into something you didn’t know because you are articulating it.”

Matty adds that early marketing can also help authors discover that a book may not be the right final format. Through conversations and early feedback, an author may realize that the content works better as a course, presentation, or program. Framing the early stage as “exploring a topic” rather than “writing a book” can leave room for flexibility while still building momentum.

CREATING CLARITY WITH A SYNOPSIS AND IDEAL READER
A recurring theme is the importance of clarity. Karen strongly recommends creating a synopsis and pitch before writing. This includes defining the big idea, the ideal reader, the problem the book solves, and the outcome it promises. She cautions against claiming a book is “for everybody,” noting that such positioning usually means it resonates with no one.

This early clarity makes writing easier and prevents authors from producing unfocused manuscripts. Karen describes receiving 50,000-word drafts with “no direction and no shape,” which could have been avoided with clearer planning. Matty agrees, especially for coauthored nonfiction, where misalignment on audience or purpose can create problems later. Writing marketing copy early can function as both a compass and a motivator.

MARKETING AS THE LAUNCH APPROACHES
As publication nears, the focus shifts toward more traditional launch activities. Karen discusses options such as Amazon bestseller campaigns, street teams, and coordinated promotion. While reaching bestseller status is not the goal for everyone, she explains that it requires planning, support, and clear expectations.

Beyond online retail, both discuss expanding thinking to include podcasts, PR, speaking, and organizational sales. Marketing to organizations—such as selling books in bulk to companies or associations—often becomes more relevant after launch. Karen suggests creative tactics like “lumpy mail,” where a physical package containing the book stands out more than email outreach.

PRICING, PERCEIVED VALUE, AND POSITIONING
Pricing is framed as a marketing decision rather than a purely financial one. Karen shares examples that illustrate how price communicates value. She recounts a client who sold a high-quality, full-color book for a premium price and still became a bestseller because the book matched the expectations and commitment of her audience.

Both emphasize that authors should consider where their book “lives” in the marketplace. Pricing too low can undermine perceived value, just as pricing too high can create friction if it does not align with audience expectations. Ebook pricing, print costs, and alternative editions (such as special color versions for events) can all play roles in a broader strategy.

BUILDING MOMENTUM AFTER LAUNCH
A key challenge discussed is maintaining momentum once the book is published. Karen notes that many authors feel relief after launch and move on to the next project, but sustained marketing is essential. She describes authors who continue encouraging reviews, sharing reader photos, and engaging their communities to keep the book visible.

Matty highlights the value of intentional “signature” marketing ideas, such as inviting readers to share photos of the book in different locations around the world. Rather than trying many tactics superficially, both advocate choosing a few approaches and doing them well.

FOCUS, REPURPOSING, AND PLATFORM CHOICE
Both stress the importance of focus in marketing. Karen recalls advice she received early in her career: choose three ways to market and do them well. She encourages authors to lean into platforms and formats they enjoy, such as podcasts or LinkedIn, rather than forcing themselves into channels they dislike.

Repurposing content is presented as a way to extend reach without multiplying effort. Podcast episodes can become blog posts, social media content, newsletter material, or book chapters. Existing blog archives can also feed new books. Presentations created during the writing process can help refine structure and reveal which ideas resonate most with audiences.

THE BOOK AS PART OF A BUSINESS ECOSYSTEM
The conversation concludes by returning to the idea of the book as part of a larger ecosystem. Karen emphasizes that nonfiction books should not be viewed in isolation but as integrated tools that support coaching, courses, speaking, and other services. Seeing the book this way can make writing feel less burdensome and more strategic.

Matty reflects that marketing, when framed as connection-building rather than selling, becomes less intimidating. By integrating marketing with research, content creation, and community engagement, authors can produce stronger books while building relationships that last beyond launch.

Episode 309 - How to Get Your Book Seen and Sold with Claudine Wolk

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Claudine Wolk discusses HOW TO GET YOUR BOOK SEEN AND SOLD, including how authors can identify and reach their ideal readers, craft a clear message and compelling hook, and overcome the fear of self-promotion. Claudine shares practical, confidence-building strategies to help indie authors simplify book marketing, focus their time and budget, and get their books in front of the readers who will love them.

Claudine Wolk is a three-time published author, speaker, columnist, book marketing expert, and podcast host of GET YOUR BOOK SEEN AND SOLD. Her latest book with co-author Julie Murkette, “Get Your Book Seen and Sold,” is the go-to guide for aspiring authors to dive in to publishing and book marketing to successfully sell their books. She is a sucker for used books, lipstick, and her three kids and grandkids.

Episode Links

https://claudinewolk.com/

https://claudinewolk.substack.com/

https://x.com/ClaudineWolk2

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/get-your-book-seen-and-sold/id1619812976

Matty’s appearance on Get Your Book Seen and Sold Podcast: Help Is Here - How To Secure & Deliver A Great Podcast Interview https://claudinewolk.substack.com/p/help-is-here-how-to-secure-and-deliver

Referenced in intro:

https://storybundle.com/writing

Referenced in interview:

Episode 296 - Article Writing for Platform and Profit with Kerrie Flanagan

Summary

In this episode of The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Claudine Wolk about how authors can get their books seen and sold, including practical book marketing strategies built around understanding message, audience, and hook. Claudine, a book marketing expert and co-author of Get Your Book Seen and Sold, shares insights to help authors—both new and experienced—build confidence and clarity in promoting their work.

AUDIENCE: WHO YOUR BOOK IS REALLY FOR
Claudine begins by emphasizing that understanding one’s audience is the foundation of book marketing. Many authors, she says, believe their book is “for everyone,” but that mindset makes it difficult to reach actual readers. Instead, authors need to ask who their ideal reader is and, more importantly, who will buy the book. “When we talk about audience and book readers,” she explains, “we’re really talking about book buyers.”

She encourages authors to have conversations with others—friends, colleagues, or fellow writers—to refine their understanding of their target audience. In her own experience, Claudine initially thought her first book, It Gets Easier and Other Lies We Tell New Mothers, would appeal to pregnant women. But after talking with a marketing-savvy friend, she realized that expectant mothers often don’t want to read about the challenges of parenthood. Instead, the book resonated with new mothers in the early, chaotic months after giving birth—those who were ready for help and reassurance.

This shift in perspective led to a more effective marketing focus. Interestingly, she discovered another unexpected audience: people buying gifts for baby showers. Although pregnant women weren’t her primary readers, they often received the book as a humorous yet heartfelt present. Claudine uses this as an example of how authors should stay open to new audience segments that may emerge after publication.

Matty adds that the process of discovering an audience can be similar for fiction writers. Authors can tell someone about their story and listen to which authors or genres that person compares it to. “If people say, ‘That reminds me of James Patterson’ or ‘That reminds me of Margaret Atwood,’ that’s really important information to have,” she says. Whether those comparisons feel right or wrong, they can help clarify where the book fits in the marketplace.

Claudine notes that many authors resist this kind of analysis because they fear competition, but understanding comparable titles can actually help. “Use that knowledge to your advantage,” she says. Knowing which books are similar to yours shows where your book belongs on the shelf and who’s already buying in that space. Once an author learns how book marketing works, she explains, they only have to learn it once—after that, it’s just a matter of applying and adapting the principles.

VISUALIZING YOUR READER’S EXPERIENCE
Claudine and Matty discuss the power of picturing how and where readers will experience a book. Claudine suggests that imagining the environment—whether a beach, a coffee shop, or a hospital waiting room—can reveal insights about design, format, and promotion. Matty builds on that idea with examples: a calligraphy book might need to lie flat for easy reference, while a “beach read” might be best in a smaller paperback size. “Imagining not only the person who’s consuming it, but the environment they’re consuming it in, I think is very powerful,” she says.

By noting these ideas as they occur during the writing process, authors can collect valuable insights that will later inform their marketing plans. Claudine recommends keeping a notebook nearby to jot down potential audiences or promotional ideas as inspiration strikes.

MESSAGE: WHAT YOUR BOOK IS ABOUT
Once an author identifies their audience, the next step is to clarify their message. Claudine describes an exercise from her book in which authors fill a blank page with all the possible themes and messages in their work—fiction or nonfiction. These messages then become the building blocks for marketing materials such as the Amazon book description, keywords, press releases, award submissions, and podcast pitches.

She encourages authors to identify where those themes appear in the media and use that research to target relevant outlets. “If you have a theme in your book that’s being covered in a magazine or on a podcast, pitch them a story or offer yourself as a guest,” she says. By connecting their book’s themes to broader conversations, authors can generate meaningful visibility and credibility.

Claudine also stresses the importance of the elevator pitch—a brief, confident statement that describes the book in one sentence. She notes that many writers struggle when asked what their book is about, often rambling or overexplaining. “You need something that’s pithy and quick,” she advises. For example, her first book could be described simply as “a fun guide for the new mom,” while Get Your Book Seen and Sold is “a guide to help authors and publishers get started in book marketing.” Having this concise pitch ready helps authors communicate effectively in any setting, from conferences to casual conversations.

OVERCOMING THE RESISTANCE TO MARKETING
When Matty asks how to overcome resistance to marketing, Claudine identifies three common barriers. The first is discomfort with self-promotion. Many writers don’t want to “sell themselves.” Her response: “You’re not selling yourself—you’re providing something that people already want.”

The second reason is that marketing feels like an entirely different skillset. Writers often see it as a “business” task that conflicts with their creative work. Claudine encourages authors to view it as a learnable process. “Once you learn it, you’ve got it,” she says. “You’re going to be doing book marketing the whole time you’re an author.”

The third barrier is fear—specifically, the realization that promoting a book means people will actually read it. Claudine recalls her own anxiety before publishing her first book, which included honest stories about her husband. “I thought, ‘Oh God, the guy’s going to leave me,’” she admits with a laugh. But when she confessed her worry, he asked, “Does it make me look like a man’s man?” When she said yes, he replied, “Then I don’t care.”

She points out that this fear of exposure can affect any writer, especially those writing memoirs or personal stories. But it also signals an important turning point: the moment when an author accepts that their words will be out in the world. Matty agrees, saying that envisioning real readers engaging with your book is a powerful gut check. “If you’re really uncomfortable about that idea,” she says, “ask whether it’s because you’re nervous about how people will receive it—or because it’s not how you want to represent yourself.”

SHIFTING THE MINDSET
Claudine shares that when she speaks at conferences, she’s often surprised by how many writers want to learn about marketing. “It was standing room only,” she says of a recent event. Authors are beginning to understand that to “do right by their book,” they need to engage with the business side. She emphasizes that a marketing plan doesn’t need to be intimidating. “A marketing plan is simply a list of tasks that you do to get your book into your audience’s hands,” she explains.

Matty suggests reframing the idea entirely—perhaps calling it something like a “birth plan” for the book, rather than a “marketing plan.” Claudine agrees, noting that a book’s life continues long after launch. She cites author Jan Yager, who successfully reissued her book When Friendship Hurts years after its initial publication by updating the cover and tying it to current events. “It’s never too late,” Claudine says. “Most of the books I read have been in print for a long time.”

FOCUSING YOUR ENERGY
Claudine and Matty close by addressing the concern that book marketing takes too much time. Claudine emphasizes that authors should focus on where their audience truly is. She gives the example of a writer in the fantasy genre who skipped general book fairs and instead set up a booth at comic conventions—places where her ideal readers gathered. “She didn’t have to worry about TikTok or Facebook,” Claudine says. “She focused on where her audience was.”

This targeted approach can save time, money, and stress. Claudine advises authors to research where comparable books are selling and how other authors in their genre promote their work. Marketing efforts will be most effective when they’re audience-driven rather than trend-driven.

Finally, she reminds authors that their marketing doesn’t have to be elaborate or expensive. “You need a website,” she says, “but it doesn’t have to have every bell and whistle. It just has to include information about you, your book, and how people can contact you.”

Matty and Claudine agree that effective book marketing comes down to mindset and focus. By identifying their audience, clarifying their message, and crafting a strong hook, authors can market their books with confidence and purpose. As Claudine puts it, “You’ve provided something fabulous to the world that only you can create. It’s a joyful thing—so embrace it and own it.”

Episode 295 - Unlocking the Power of Book Awards with Hannah Jacobson

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Hannah Jacobson discusses UNLOCKING THE POWER OF BOOK AWARDS, including changes within the book awards landscape, particularly the increasing acceptance of indie-published works; practical tips on selecting and submitting to the right awards; how to leverage wins for maximum benefit; the value of receiving and incorporating feedback from award entries; and how authors can share their award journey with readers to build engagement, even if it doesn't end in a win.

Hannah Jacobson is the founder of Book Award Pro, the industry-trusted platform for getting reviews and awards. The company operates the world's largest database of legitimate book accolades, serving thousands of authors globally. As a recognized authority on literary accolades and prestigious book recognition, Hannah also serves an Advisor to the Alliance of Independent Authors (ALLi) and the Independent Book Publishers Association (IBPA).

Episode Links

https://bookawardpro.com

https://facebook.com/bookawardpro

https://www.instagram.com/bookawardpro/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/bookawardpro/

https://x.com/bookawardpro

Mentioned in the interview:

https://selfpublishingadvice.org/author-awards-contests-rated-reviewed/

Summary

In this episode of The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Hannah Jacobson, founder of Book Award Pro, about the world of book awards and how independent authors can leverage them to enhance their book's reputation and visibility. They explore the significance of book awards, the evolving landscape, and practical strategies for authors considering this route.

Understanding the Attraction to Book Awards

Hannah shares that her fascination with book awards began at an early age, driven by a childhood curiosity about books with Gold seals. This passion translated into her current career, helping authors navigate the complexities of book accolades through Book Award Pro. The platform has become an authority, offering authors a way to strategically enter book awards that can bolster their professional credibility and discoverability.

The Importance of Book Awards for Indie Authors

The episode discusses how the landscape for indie authors has shifted significantly, especially over the past decade. More prestigious book awards, like the Pulitzer Prize, now accept self-published works, opening doors for independent authors to gain recognition alongside traditionally published counterparts. Hannah notes that the quality and professionalism of indie books have increased substantially, leading to a broader acceptance in the awards arena.

Selecting the Right Awards

Hannah advises authors to be strategic when selecting awards. Not all awards are suitable for every book, and factors like the book's genre, publication date, and specific award criteria must be considered. Authors should also align their award strategies with their personal goals, such as seeking recognition for an entire series or targeting niche categories like romantic science fiction. These choices can enhance marketability and reader reach.

Overcoming Challenges in the Awards Process

Matty and Hannah discuss the barriers that indie authors might face, such as limited awards accessibility and the challenge of excess choice. Hannah suggests maintaining a steady submission pace, perhaps targeting one award submission per month to avoid overwhelming oneself with the process. This approach also allows authors to adapt to feedback and refine their submission strategy over time.

Budgeting and Financial Considerations

Budget is a vital consideration in award submissions. Authors need to assess their spending capacity and evaluate the potential return on investment that winning an award could offer. It's crucial to consider features like bonus benefits that some awards provide, such as editorial reviews or publicity boosts, which can add value beyond the award itself.

Making the Most of Award Wins

An award win can significantly enhance an author's profile if leveraged correctly. Authors are encouraged to update their bios, book descriptions, and even cover designs to reflect their award-winning status. Hannah highlights the power of subtle but impactful changes, like updating an email signature to include award-winning credentials, which can lead to increased book sales and visibility.

Timing and Submission Strategy

Timing can be a strategic factor in award submissions. The sweet spot is often three months before publication, allowing authors to potentially launch with an award-winning title. However, even older titles can benefit from awards if matched with the right opportunities. Hannah emphasizes that always having awards open for any stage of publication is key.

Identifying Red Flags in Award Programs

Hannah offers guidance for spotting potentially problematic awards. Authors should look for clear guidelines, responsive communications, and transparency about judging criteria. Prominent awards should actively promote their winners, as visibility is a crucial aspect of the value they provide to authors.

Closing Thoughts

Hannah explains how Book Award Pro simplifies the book award process, helping authors find legitimate awards that fit their needs and handle professional entries. The episode ends with both guests encouraging authors not to be daunted by the process and instead view it as a valuable journey that can open up new pathways for reader engagement and professional growth.

This podcast episode is packed with insights into the strategic opportunities book awards present to indie authors, encompassing everything from initial submission to maximizing the benefits of a win. The conversation is an invaluable resource for authors seeking to understand and navigate the complexities of book awards.