Episode 328 - Learn to Write It, Learn to Publish It: Western Colorado University Master’s Programs in Publishing and Genre Fiction with Kevin J. Anderson & Johanna Parkhurst

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Kevin J. Anderson & Johanna Parkhurst discusses LEARN TO WRITE IT, LEARN TO PUBLISH IT, about Western Colorado University's master's programs in publishing and genre fiction, which treat commercial fiction as worthy of serious study and teach students every step from manuscript to market. They discuss the hands-on anthology project that drew nearly a thousand submissions, why understanding both indie and traditional publishing gives writers more career options, and what makes these programs unlike anything else in academia.

Kevin J. Anderson has published more than 190 books, 58 of which have been national or international bestsellers, with over 24 million copies in print in 34 languages. He has written numerous novels in the Star Wars, X-Files, and Dune universes and too many original works novels and series to mention. All this in addition to editing anthologies, writing comics and games, and composing the lyrics to three rock albums. Anderson and his wife Rebecca MESS-ta are the publishers of WordFire Press, and he is the director of the graduate program in Publishing at Western Colorado University.

Johanna Parkhurst, who also writes as J.E. Birk, is the author of award-winning and bestselling fiction and romance and primarily writes stories featuring LGBTQ+ characters. She has been published traditionally, by small presses, and also via her imprint Maple Mountains Press. Johanna is a Colorado Book Award winner and a Rainbow Romance Award winner. She is also a long-time teacher, recognized as Faculty of the Year at Pueblo Community College and as Faculty Mentor of the Year at Western Colorado University.

Episode Links

https://western.edu/landing/gpcw/

https://wordfire.com

https://wordfirepress.com

https://www.facebook.com/KJAauthor

Summary & Transcript

Kevin J. Anderson has published more than 190 books—58 of which have been national or international bestsellers—with over 24 million copies in print in 34 languages. He is the director of the graduate program in publishing at Western Colorado University and, with his wife Rebecca Moesta, the publisher of WordFire Press. Johanna Parkhurst, who also writes as J.E. Burke, is a Colorado Book Award–winning and Rainbow Romance Award–winning author of fiction and romance featuring LGBTQ+ characters, and serves as faculty mentor and instructor in Western Colorado University's graduate program in genre fiction. In this conversation, Kevin and Johanna described a pair of graduate programs that take a fundamentally practical approach to teaching writers how to build sustainable careers.

A PROGRAM BUILT ON WHAT THEY WISHED SOMEONE HAD TAUGHT THEM

Kevin founded the publishing program after the university approached him about creating a master's degree. His condition was that he would teach only what he wished someone had taught him when he was starting out—the practical mechanics of both traditional and indie publishing, organized so that students could learn in one year what took him four decades to piece together. The program covers every step from manuscript to market: cover design, interior layout with Vellum, uploading to retailers, running Amazon ads, building Kickstarter campaigns, and understanding the economics of how publishers, authors, and bookstores each make money from a sale.

Johanna came to the genre fiction MFA with a similar frustration. When she was looking for graduate programs, she could not find one willing to work with her on romance, mystery, or sci-fi. The genre fiction program fills that gap by treating commercial fiction as worthy of serious academic study—reading bestsellers across every genre, analyzing what makes them work, and requiring students to write in genres outside their comfort zone.

LEARNING BY DOING

Both programs center on hands-on projects rather than traditional thesis papers. Kevin's publishing students produce a yearly anthology that pays professional rates, funded by a grant from Draft2Digital. The current anthology, INTO THE DEEP DARK WOODS, drew 998 submissions. Students read the slush pile, make multiple rounds of cuts, negotiate a budget, write acceptance and rejection letters, copyedit the accepted stories, design the cover, lay out the interior, and manage the book launch—including a formal gala at the university.

The previous year's cohort went further: they created four books to support the Elk River Writers Workshop, an indigenous-taught writing workshop in Montana that had lost its federal arts grants. The students built and ran a Kickstarter that raised roughly $10,000 and saved the workshop. Kevin noted that twelve to fifteen graduates have gone on to run successful Kickstarters of their own.

On the genre fiction side, Johanna described a thesis project that requires students to draft a novel or short story collection with publication as the explicit goal. Each student works with an assigned writing coach from brainstorming through final draft, and the finished projects are designed either for querying agents or for independent publication. Several thesis projects are currently out on submission, and several more were being prepared for indie release.

GENRE FICTION CHANGES THE WORLD

Johanna made the case that genre fiction has historically driven cultural change—from LGBTQ+ romance built on the backs of small and indie publishers before traditional houses recognized the market, to LitRPG as an entire form created by indie authors blending genres in ways traditional publishing would not have permitted. Kevin reinforced the point with his own experience: traditional editors used to forbid genre-blending because bookstores would not know which shelf to put it on. Indie publishing removed that constraint entirely.

Both described this as what Kevin calls the golden age of publishing—an era when writers have more career paths available than ever before. Kickstarter, Patreon, direct sales at comic cons, library talks, hybrid trad-indie careers—the options multiply in ways that did not exist even a decade ago. The programs aim to prepare students for all of them.

HYBRID CAREERS AND BUSINESS FUNDAMENTALS

The genre fiction program prepares students for both indie and traditional paths. They learn to write queries, prepare pitches (this year, with a live agent session), read contracts, understand tax obligations, and build author platforms. Kevin's publishing program complements this with deep dives into printing, distribution, copyrights, and the full mechanics of indie production.

Kevin acknowledged that some students arrive wanting only the indie track and resist learning the traditional side. His response: even if you want to be a rock star, you should still understand classical music. Understanding how printing, distribution, and bookstore economics work gives indie authors a foundation for making better decisions about their own businesses.

COMMUNITY AS INFRASTRUCTURE

Both Kevin and Johanna emphasized that community is central to the program's design. The low-residency format—one week in person each July in Gunnison, Colorado, with the rest conducted asynchronously online—draws students from around the world, including a current student studying from Denmark. Students frequently cross between the publishing and genre fiction programs, and many stay connected to the community long after graduating.

Kevin also described Superstars Writing Seminars, which he co-founded with Brandon Sanderson, Eric Flint, David Farland, Rebecca Moesta, and James A. Owen roughly sixteen years ago as what he calls the original business-of-writing conference. The same community-minded ethos—rising tides lift all boats, share what you learn—runs through both Superstars and the university programs. Applications for the summer 2026 cohort are open now, with online classes beginning in June and the residency week in July.

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This transcript was created by Descript and cleaned up by Claude; I don’t review these transcripts in detail, so consider the actual interview to be the authoritative source for this information.

[00:00:00] Matty: Hello and welcome to the Indy Author Podcast. Today my guests are Kevin J. Anderson and Johanna Parkhurst. How are you doing?

[00:00:06] Johanna: Doing well.

[00:00:08] Kevin: having us on.

[00:00:09] Matty: I am pleased to have you here and just to give a little introduction of you for our listeners, Kevin J. Anderson has published more than 190 books, 58 of which have been national or international bestsellers with over 24 million copies in print in 34 languages. He’s written numerous novels in the Star Wars, X-Files, and Dune universes, which, I think is very interesting because I just got a chance to talk with Jonathan Maberry about media tie in work.

Too many original works, novels and series to mention all this. In addition to editing anthologies writing comics and games and composing the lyrics to three rock albums,

Anderson and his wife Rebecca Moesta, are the publishers of WordFire Press, and he is the director of the graduate program in publishing at

And Johanna Parkhurst, who also writes as J.E. Burke, is the author of award-winning and bestselling fiction and romance, and primarily writes stories featuring LGBTQ+ characters. She’s been published traditionally by small presses and also via her imprint, Maple Mountains Press. She’s a Colorado Book Award winner and a Rainbow Romance Award winner, and she’s also a longtime teacher recognized as Faculty of the year at Pueblo Community College and as faculty mentor of the year at

And for people who are listening carefully to those two bios, I think you will, notice the commonality there, which was Western Colorado

[00:01:27] Matty: So I am very pleased to have, Kevin and Johanna on the, podcast to talk about Western Colorado University’s master’s program in publishing and genre fiction, which I think is, is, a unique offering among the educational opportunities for writers out there.

And so I’m just gonna first of all throw it open and ask you guys to describe what is the Western Colorado University Master’s program in

[00:01:51] Kevin: Uh, well, Western Colorado University is, is a huge university and, well, no, it’s, it’s, it’s a small University of the mountains of Colorado. but it doesn’t really matter that much because all of our teaching is,low residency and it’s almost all

[00:02:07] Kevin: look, I, I got out of college with my va, my bachelor’s degree, and I went right off into being a writer.

And I published novels traditionally and, and had a big full career for it. We never really felt you needed to have a master’s degree to be successful writing genre fiction or publishing stuff like that. but this program came about. I, I formed the publishing program. About seven years ago when they approached me and asked if I would, put together a,

And I said, well, only if I can teach the stuff that I wish somebody had taught me when I was learning it. And I’ve been doing this for decades in traditional publishing and I form my own indie. Imprint kind of at the beginning of indie in 2009 when people were just starting it. And so I’ve got a whole track record in both traditional publishing, very

And, I put together this program that I, I think is unlike anything else in any other university. ’cause we teach half and half full traditional publishing and we teach them all indie publishing and. I learned all this stuff over the course of 40 years, but we kind of organized it so

it’s kind of start to finish organized, and I’m not an academic at all. I wanted to teach people. Like practical how to do stuff that when they come out of the publishing program, they know every step from start to finish of creating and publishing their book, designing their cover, uploading it, advertising it, running Amazon ads, doing everything so

Something at the end of it. And when I joined Western Colorado University, they also had a program that taught an MFA in genre fiction. And most MFAs are it’s Master of Fine Arts. And so they were teaching, you know, literature and, and not. Westerns and romances and mysteries and science fiction, and I just thought that was really cool that they

And, Johanna wasn’t the person running it at the time, but she’s now, and I’ll, I’ll punt it over to you to talk about what, what genre

[00:04:19] Johanna: Yeah. Thank you Kevin.

[00:04:20] Johanna: I, I jokingly say that I can talk about this program all day long because similarly to what Kevin just said, this is the program that I looked for years ago and couldn’t find. This is the program I always needed. I’ve been a teacher for a long time, but I’ve

And when I was looking for MFA programs. There wasn’t anybody who was interested in working with me on what I really wanted to write. you know, I’ve, I’ve loved genre since I was very small. I love all different types of it, and I just wanted to play in genre blends and I wanted to write romance and I wanted to write mystery, and I wanted to

And it was very hard when I was first. Starting out on this track to find those programs. so my soapbox for this program is if you love genre and you believe that your writing has a space in the world and you wanna be a part of a community of. Many other writers who love genre as much as you do and who wanna study what it means to read like a writer and study the best genre fiction, the most successful genre fiction, really

This is the place for you. because something that I think Kevin and I and all the directors at the graduate program of Creative Writing believe we all believe very strongly in community, community is incredibly important to us. We believe that rising tides lift all boats.

They should be setting you up for a lifetime of art and a lifetime of a success doing what you love to do. We have a lot of students who study genre fiction and publishing in either order. Kevin jokingly calls it the learn how to write a book and then learn how to publish it track, but it’s actually pretty accurate, right?

That’s basically what it is. we were just talking about this last night in class. Actually, several of my genre fiction writers came over from publishing. One of them was showing off a Kickstarter that she just finished and we were talking about, you know, the succession of being able to really study both and practically walk out into the world feeling like not only have you built more skills or advanced your skills, because we have a lot of writers in this program who have long and storied careers, and they come because they love learning and they

Grow and they wanna build a deeper community. and they were talking about the practicality of that piece, how you can build this community and you can come out knowing how to do a Kickstarter and write a great book that will keep those readers from your Kickstarters engaged with

[00:06:32] Johanna: And we’re a residency like Kevin was saying. So a big part of our sort of ethos is we believe writers should come from everywhere. That you shouldn’t be limited in what you can study because of where you are. So we all meet in person one week. A year in Gunnison, Colorado, which is beautiful in July, I have to say.

And the rest of the year everything’s online. It’s over Zoom, just like this. It’s in discussion boards, it’s in other online spaces. So we have students from all over the world. I have a student studying in Denmark right now. Kevin actually got to visit her when he was at a Comic-Con there recently, which is very cool.

[00:07:05] Kevin: Actually, I wanna pick up on that, just the idea. can you imagine, think in your head what, what an MFA program is? Can you imagine an MFA program at a, some other university teaching you how to build and run a Kickstarter? I mean we, I’ve got a Kickstarter running right now at Launched yesterday, but my students shadowed me the whole time as, as I built it.

They watched the, i I made them collaborators and they’re inside the back office watching me put all the stuff together and doing the BackerKit ads and, and the pre-launch stuff. And then they launched it and they’re helping to promote it and we’re going through this and, and we

[00:07:41] Matty: That’s fantastic.

[00:07:42] Kevin: but that they’re actually learning how to. Do this stuff and last year’s group of students for, for publishing. Instead of just watching me do a Kickstarter, we actually put one together ourselves that there is a, the Elk River Writers Workshop, which is a, an indigenous taught writing workshop up in Montana.

And they had, surprise, surprise, a bunch of their federal, arts grants. canceled. So they weren’t gonna survive. They couldn’t run this workshop. And so our publishing students put together four books, like the collected stories from the people who attended there and, and a book

And so they created and published four books that they ran the Kickstarter for. They raised something like \$10,000 and saved the workshop. And that’s what their classwork was. They built and ran a Kickstarter and now they all know how to do it. And I think of my publishing grads, we’ve had like 12 to 15 of them that went off to do their own Kickstarters that were successful and we’re just very much

They wanna be able to hold up a book and say, yes, I know how to make this. Rather than that, they wrote a thesis paper somewhere that. Nobody will read that. This is really practical stuff that we just try to teach

[00:08:54] Johanna: I was just gonna say on the genre side of the practicality piece, our thesis project is writing a novel or short story collection for your goals as a publication. So the goal is that you’re walking out with a project that you can either query to agents if you wanna go in a trad direction with it, or if you’re studying Kevin’s

Publish yourself. And those thesis projects are written with writing coaches every step of the way. So you have a very specific coach who’s assigned to you on the MFA track who works with you throughout the whole process, from brainstorming all the way to the very end. and we, you know, we’re really excited.

We have several out in subs, several being planned for independent publication right now. Like, this is the work that our students are doing, like Kevin was saying, like, we are, we all want to be working in this industry together in whatever fashion that means for our students.

[00:09:39] Matty: Yeah, I really like the practicality of it. I’d love to dive into a few more examples of the kind of, actual work the students are doing. I’m curious about on the writing front, Johanna. How does the program, how does the work of refining one’s writing differ in your program than it would in a traditional MFA, beyond?

I mean, obviously the, the work that’s being studied is different, but then can you describe differences in how the students act on the work

[00:10:10] Johanna: Yeah, I mean, I think the similarities are in the fact that we’re trying to build a community of authors who help lift one another’s writing up, right? So we do workshops just like any other MFA does. But one of the things that we specifically do in our workshops. Or try to do is we try to make them really open spaces where

So there’s some traditional MFA formats out there where you’re kind of sitting in silence and being told what’s right or wrong about your story. But since we’re functioning in genre spaces where we want readers and writers to be able to communicate across what’s working.

Our workshops are kind of designed around what works best for the author. So different authors run different types of workshops in every story they’re producing across. Every genre we study is an opportunity for publication. Kevin’s program, the publishing program, puts together an anthology. Every year they get a massive numbers of submissions.

I think they had something like 999 last year. I am so proud to say that. I think seven or eight. Kevin, correct me if I’m wrong, of the

[00:11:10] Kevin: think seven previous and current students got in there and they got i’ll, I’ll talk about the anthology in, in a minute, but that’s what I would like to point out though, is that you’re, they might come in going, I want to be a fantasy writer, but you make them understand how romance works, how westerns work, how mysteries work, and they have to write a mystery story.

They have to write a romance story and they. they actually learn how to do it, and some of them have excelled outside of the genre that they

[00:11:38] Johanna: One of my funny stories about this is, so I am a romance writer and every genre has. Folks who are like, I love that genre. I don’t engage with that genre. Right. And there’s always a few folks who come in with romance, like, I’ve never read a romance before. And it’s always so funny to me. I think I’ve had three students who had never written a romance where romance ended up being their very first publication because they just fell in love with a genre.

When Kevin did a romance anthology in the program a few years ago, we had so many submissions from out of that workshop. Yeah. I was really proud that I, I think, yeah, I think believe it is eight. genre fiction, former and past writers are in that anthology this year, ’cause several

The goal is that, as Kevin said, they’re writing in every genre. They’re playing with genre blends. They’re looking at where they can take new ideas from what they’re reading. Because we read a lot in our program. The writers will tell you so much of how you learn to develop

Right? Like, how do you read like a writer? What are you studying in other people’s crafts? So we’re reading the bestselling romances, we’re reading the best. Selling mysteries. We’re reading the bestselling thrillers, we’re reading the bestselling sci-fi. we’re reading the interesting and new genre blends of sci-fi and fantasy, and we’re talking about what makes them work, what makes them tick.

What is it that you can take from these books and bring into your own craft so that you can write this new story and something you’ve never written before, and you can submit it to the WordFire anthologies and

[00:12:57] Kevin: You mean an MFA program that makes them read bestselling fiction? How, how dare you. How? How dare you.

[00:13:03] Johanna: People laugh so hard when I tell them what we read in our program. a few titles from this year have included, I’ll just throw some of it out there. Dark Matter by Blake Crouch, fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros is on that list. Rebecca Roanhorse is on that list. oh my gosh, so many. And we change them every year.

We change our book lists every year to reflect what’s coming out and what’s moving up. We’re in the horror unit now, so

[00:13:24] Matty: Do you get in touch with the authors of those books? do they know that, that their books are being used as, academic

[00:13:31] Johanna: Yeah, we have several speak and it’s, I remember when we invited Cat Sebastian, who is a really well-known, queer romance writer. She was like, you’re asking me to speak my, my book’s being used in an MFA book? I was like, yes, it really is.

[00:13:44] Matty: probably a, an item they didn’t even realize

[00:13:48] Johanna: She was, she was thrilled and she was such a great guest. Yeah, we have some amazing speakers who are just so excited to be able to come in and, and see the ways that their books are being

[00:13:56] Kevin: Well, and that is one of the things like Matty, you, you, you and I have interacted for a long time and I’ve been involved in the industry. So we can bring in like the captains of industry to just be guest speakers for us. And we have major bestselling authors and like the heads of Audible and the heads of Draft2Digital and, and like all.

All the people that are in our space. And it’s a, it, it’s kind of cool when I think of it ’cause we are just a little university, but we’re getting all these, these Titan speakers that are, that are there and, let I, I’d like to talk a little bit about what we.

[00:14:33] Kevin: What our, our main project is for the publishing people is that, they put together an original anthology every year.

And again, this is the learning how to do stuff from start to finish. And we get a, a really, really nice grant every year from Draft2Digital. And they, they, they give us, a, a nice chunk of money that we can use to pay professional rates for. An original anthology and the students come up when they meet in summer, they get together and they brainstorm and come up with, this is the anthology they wanna edit.

And the one that they’re working on this year is called Into the Deep Dark Woods. And they wrote up their, their description, their call for submissions. They, they send it out and posted it. Everywhere in the writers’ groups and Author Nation and, and successful indie author and all these different places, and we get submissions because we’re paying

So people are writing stories and they’re sending ’em in and into the deep dark woods. We got 998 submissions that came in and the students. They read the slush pile that they’re broken into teams, but they go through and they read them and they reject them. They clear through, and then they do another cut, and they reject the next round and then and the next round, and they get down to what we call the thunderdome call with two stories enter and one story leaves because they, they have to

Which ones they can have because they have a budget. We’re, this is a business that you got this much money and you can buy this many words. And that what usually happens is they’re like 80 stories that they wanna buy and they can only buy 26 and then they have to fight over which, which ones. And that is incredible learning spirits for them because they realize all 80 of those stories were perfectly good and

But they still got rejected and they really learned a lot from their own writing. Like, wait, just ’cause they got rejected, maybe it didn’t mean the story was terrible. And then they, they write the last rejections, they write the acceptance letters. They send out the contracts. They, they work with the authors to copy edit them.

they work to design the cover. They lay it out and we make them get vellum. So they all learn how to use vellum. And then we publish the book and we run, they develop Canva ads and they put it out. And then the following summer in Gunnison, when they all get together for their second time, we have this really cool gala book launch at the University Center, and it’s kind of all black tie.

I wear my, my tux and, and Allison Longueira, my co-pro professor, wears her cocktail dress and everybody kind of gets dressed up and we have like 300 people there that come in and, and they, they sell their books and they, they buy the books and, Oh, and, and the students also produce

It’s like a reissue of a classic of literature that they do from start to finish, but here’s kind of a little off the radar, which I think is one of the most interesting things that they learn. So after that big book launch, so they publish their anthology, they publish their classic books, we print them up and we sell ’em at the book launch.

[00:17:28] Kevin: Well, there are three parties that make money when a book is published and sold. The publisher makes money. So that’s Word fire Press. That’s my publisher publishing house. The author makes money, in this case it’s Western Colorado University. ’cause they get the royalties and the bookstore makes money and we have a separate bookstore entity that, so the bookstore buys the books, that 40% discount from the publisher the way any bookstore does with any

And they buy all these books. We put them out, we sell them that night, and then we run this whole spreadsheet together afterward. Where you figure out exactly how much money did the publisher make for all these books that we printed up and sent into this book event. And then how much money did the author make the Western Colorado University for their

And how much money did the bookstore make because they had to buy them and then they resell them and they get to see like, like with actual numbers with the books that they handed in their own hands. This is how much the publisher made, how much the author made, and how much the bookstore made. And invariably every single year, it’s the bookstore

the bookstore has the most risk though, because they have to buy all these books. And if there’s a tornado that night and nobody shows up, well, then they’re stuck with all this inventory that they can’t sell. So it’s, again, that’s just, it’s, it’s a very long description of how, how practical and pragmatic this stuff is.

[00:18:51] Matty: Well, I do really like the idea of them getting some direct exposure to the business side of, the writing and publishing world. And I do just wanna second that idea that having that exposure to the editorials. Side of being the person who’s having to read and accept or reject stories, I think is so valuable and, really highlights

And there’s so many other things that go into whether you get an acceptance or whether you get a rejection. I think it’s great that they

[00:19:22] Kevin: To go back to what Johanna was saying before, a lot of the submissions, do you require your students to submit to our

[00:19:30] Johanna: I don’t require, but it works out really well. your deadline is always right after one of our first workshop.

[00:19:33] Kevin: So. these stories come in and because some of her students were actually the editors the previous year, they learned so much about what catches your eye in the slush pile and what doesn’t

I think we had seven or eight in this coming one. And this was on their own merits. ’cause they come in basically blind and people are reading all these submissions and out of 998 submissions. seven or eight of the current students got in there on their own merits because their stories

[00:20:05] Matty: That’s very cool.

[00:20:09] Matty: One of the things you had said earlier, Johanna, about the, submitting to, traditional publishing outlets. I can see obviously all the things we’re talking about, about the, the practical end of if somebody wants to. be it like a solo, indie, author, publisher, then this is gonna equip them well for it.

Can you also talk about in what way it, equips them better for an

[00:20:29] Johanna: I mean, to borrow a quote from Kevin, he likes to say this is the golden age of publishing. And I would agree because authors have more opportunity than ever, so we wanna sort of.

[00:20:37] Johanna: From the genre fiction side of things, and this is similar to how Kevin approaches things in the publishing program. We wanna sort of prepare our writers, those who are either in the field or are thinking of advancing in different areas of in the

so like I teach the business class and the genre fiction, side of the house for example. And we do a lot of combination with Kevin. We do a lot of speakers together and things like that. ’cause there’s a lot of crossover and in that business course. We’re essentially preparing them for what are the practical things you need to know to exist in both of these worlds so that whatever your career brings to you, you can move

We’re seeing more and more indie authors also pick up trad contracts, particularly for their print works that’s, you know, becoming more and more popular. We’re seeing more and more TRA authors also want to have an indie side to their career. You just don’t know where this golden

[00:21:25] Johanna: So in the business class, we kind of prep everybody for how to write queries. How to do a pitch. we’re actually piloting something this year where we have an agent coming in directly and doing pitches with the students in the class. and we were very lucky to be able to do that. The projects don’t always align that way that they can come into class and everybody’s project will work for the same agent, but it did this year.

So we’re trying that this year. But either way, we prepped for all of that. We prep for the pitches. We make sure they know how to read contracts that are gonna come their way. You know, that’s something that. Kevin also covers again in publishing. So we’re really trying to set them up for everything. And then those that wanna go down more of an indie route, if the publishing track is good for them, that’s very often where they’ll also study there so they can go more in depth

but at least they leave feeling like they know how to build a platform. They know how to exist in these different realms and they know what they don’t know because I think that’s. Such a difficult part about being a writer. You know, I remember when I was first starting out, and even as my career has grown, the hardest part is always you don’t know what you

Like if nobody tells you. I, we were, we had a CPA on a call the other night and I was thinking about these horror stories we used to hear and still sometimes do about like debut authors who get these big contracts, you know, kind of win the literary lottery and don’t know that they have to pay taxes on that so they like blow the whole check on paying

Then tax time comes up in trouble, right? Because you don’t know what you don’t know. So we’re trying, hopefully, in these classes to not only prepare you for the craft side of this world, but what the practicalities of everything else are going to feel like. And what I, I, you know, I don’t say pros and cons in either a positive or negative

Everything publishing, every publishing path has pros and cons, so we’re sort of trying to. Give them the foundation of understanding, like when you’re looking at a project and thinking about what is the best path for this project, making sure they know the why and the how of how to approach that path, if that makes sense.

[00:23:12] Matty: Well, I do like the idea that you’re covering both Indie and rad because I always try to spread the word that you, a writer shouldn’t. Think about making a choice for their career. They should think about making a choice for each work and then further each format and further each geography and you know, all the other ways you

So having a pool of knowledge about all the options available, I think

[00:23:36] Johanna: So well.

[00:23:37] Kevin: And we, we’ve had some, like more militant indie authors going like, well, I don’t wanna learn the trad side. And I go, guys, if you wanna be a rock star, you still should understand classical music. And, and there’s so much in trad just the bookstore distribution and copyrights and contracts and, and just, just printing

Look at all the options we have now with BookVault and with, with,other print on demand things and, and fancy vendors. You have to know how printing works and, and all the various things that you have. And, and yes, if you are a very ambitious indie author, you can go on a million different writers groups and, and Facebook groups, and you can go to conferences and you can learn all of this stuff in a completely random

F, but what, what we offer is like, okay guys, we’re gonna start, start here and we’re gonna give you this whole organized. Game plan to go through and, and finish it. A

[00:24:33] Kevin: nd, and just because Johanna and I field a lot of these questions, I’m gonna preempt one and just mention that the stuff that we’re teaching, because it is low residency and all online, most of it is asynchronous, which means you, you do it on your own time.

And yes, there are zoom calls that we meet ourselves in class, but mainly you’ll be given, here’s your work or here’s your lecture, here’s your reading that you have to do, and you do that on your own time. And a great many of our students in publishing, and I think a lot of them in genre as well. they’re not like white-eyed kids fresh out of undergrad, that these are people who have already established their careers and they’ve got a full-time job, they’ve got families, they’ve got other things, and they’re still putting this on top of it.

And they managed to do it. And, you know, to me, to them it’s, it’s something feasible to do. and just the, the pragmatic thing, so for publishing, it’s a one year program, so it starts in July. June, some online classes, and then it ends the following July, and the, the total cost is 27,000, I think.

[00:25:36] Kevin: And the, well, you talk about genre, it’s an MA

[00:25:42] Johanna: Yeah, so we have the one year or the two year option. So the one year is very similar to the track, Kevin, just. It’s basically. June to July. and that’s the master’s degree. And the master’s degree is basically what I like to call the genre bootcamp. It’s that first year of you’re deep dive studying every genre you’re

You’re building these great workshop communities where you’re getting a lot of feedback on your work. You’re conferencing with your instructors, really figuring out how to grow your craft. We do have some students, some writers who just do the MA and then they graduate from that year. The majority of the genre fiction writers tend to do the two year program, the MFA program.

Because the second year is when you do the short forms course, which is a deep dive into some other forms. the novelette, flash fiction, things like that. The business course that we were just talking about. There’s also a pedagogy course in there that sort of helps prepare those who wanna go into classrooms because MFA is a terminal degree, or those who just wanna be really strong conference speakers and create things like this, right?

Create spaces where other writers can learn from them and continue to push their work forward. And that’s the year you’re writing your thesis, your novel project with your, with your mentor. So the majority of our writers tend to do the two year program, although there are a few

It really just depends on goals, right? Like what are you in the program for? What are you looking to get out of it? What are you, what do you wanna achieve? What is, what is your variation on, you know, we were talking about ROI. What does ROI look for you and look like for you?

[00:27:05] Johanna: And we do have students who cross and we’ll do like the MA in publishing and the MA in genre or the MFA in genre and the MA in publishing. We also have a nature writing program, poetry program, a screenwriting program. So we have multiple students who will

I’ve had students go on to study screenwriting or come to us from screenwriting. I think Kevin has a screenwriter going to publishing this year. We also, we are a small and very tightly knit community, so you get to know the other instructors in the program once you’re there, and we have a lot of folks who stay because they love the community we’ve

[00:27:36] Matty: I do think that the idea of being able to be part of this, very, Both like high powered audience, both among the instructors and the student body. and also a very committed group. Obviously committed because they’re making this commitment to the program is great. And I, I know that there’s a certain amount of

I recognize it’s not part of the program, but I think that that idea of community, it’s like a great adjunct offering. and I’d love to give

[00:28:08] Kevin: Superstars writing seminar. Something that I founded with Brandon Sanderson, Eric Flint, David Farland, my wife Rebecca Moesta, and, and we brought on James A. Owen. We, this was, I call it the OG Business of Writing Conference. ’cause like 15, 16 years ago, we all got together and talked business and we said, how come there

This was long before Author Nation long, before 20Books to 50K. And so we, we did Superstars writing seminar to. To teach people about contracts and ips and, and Eric Flynn, our, our first year he did this, this talk about this, you know, I think we should pay attention to this

And, and he was the only one that was even doing anything with it. And, what, what developed out of that and Superstars has grown, we’re now a pro non-Pro 501(c)(3) nonprofit. what the best thing that came out of that is our full on nurturing community. Mindset that everybody there is like on the same team and they wanna learn and they want, and you, you’ve seen indie authors out there that indie authors are so different from what most professionals are in that they, you can’t stop them from sharing the stuff that they learned that they’re so eager to, to like, oh, look what I found out.

Look what I mean. Like most other people are like, no, it’s trade

[00:29:38] Kevin: But that’s not indie authors, and that’s what superstars is and that’s what we are at Western Colorado University too, that it’s very much a, well, it’s a little subversive that I want to talk about because we, We are teaching people how to remake the entire publishing industry and, and you know that as indie authors, that what we’re, there are a lot of people in publishing, in traditional publishing, and I still know a lot of them in traditional public, like the, my editors at the Big Five and my, my Big New York agents and

They still don’t quite understand what’s going on out here that they, they cannot believe that you can make a lot of money on Kickstart Kickstarter for a project that they couldn’t sell to another publisher. I had one of those two years ago where I, I did a seven volume set of my collected reprint, short stories, and I asked my, my agent and I said, well, would, would you be able to sell this?

He said, nobody would want a reprint set of your short stories and not seven volumes. And I said, okay. And I ran a Kickstarter and made \$80,000 for it. And he’s still like. I was speaking a different language, and we really want to be, we want to get respect for genre fiction and academia, and I’ll let Jo Johanna talk about that.

I wanna get respect for indie publishing in academia because other programs will, you can get an MFA that will teach you how to go work for the Big five publishers, but there aren’t that many jobs out there anymore. What we’re finding is among our applicants, they don’t really

They wanna learn how to be indie publishers themselves, or at the very least, to be hybrid so that they know both sides of the fence. And, and Johanna, you were the same way, where we’re like, well, wait, how come other MFAs don’t teach genre fiction? That’s what people wanna read.

[00:31:18] Johanna: Yeah.

[00:31:18] Johanna: I mean our kind of our, our longstanding slogan in this program is genre fiction changes the world, and Indie publishing has allowed genre fiction. To change the world. We should put that on T-shirts, Kevin.

[00:31:29] Kevin: Oh, I like that. I got it.

[00:31:31] Johanna: But it’s, it’s true, right? Like we, when we look back at the course of history and we really think about various literary content that has changed society and moved society forward,

And yet for some reason. We don’t talk about it the same way in academia that I think we should be. and when we look at how genre fiction has been allowed to change and move spheres, I mean, I’m, I’m a product of one of those circles. LGBTQ+ romance is a space that only really existed or only has sort of existed and has kind of changed how we talk about romance and how we talk about the way that people communicate with one another and what it means to be accepted included

If you’re not in a, you know, very traditional looking. Relationship. That’s the kind of thing that was built on the back of small publishers and indie publishers. And then, quite frankly, I’ll just be honest here, right? Like one day trad publishing went, oh, there’s money over there. And all of a sudden you saw a lot of LGBTQ+ romance popping up

and that’s just one story, right? Like there’s. So many stories of how small publishers and indie publishers helped give rise. Another one that we talk a lot about right now is LitRPG and Lit. RPG is just an interesting example of an entire field of writers who basically created something because they were like, we can blend these genres and we can

We’re gonna like, make this form exist. And it exists out in the world. It changed the sphere of an entire genre because of indie publishing. I, I kind of have made an argument before that I don’t think LitRPG. Would have existed nearly as quickly or in the same way if it wasn’t

[00:33:01] Kevin: They wouldn’t have known how to publish it. And let me even go back to my trad days ’cause I was always loving to do genre mixing and cross genre things. And I like steampunk vampires and all that stuff and my editors would always slap my hand. I go, don’t mix genres because we won’t know which bookshelf to put it on in the

They that was you was really frowned upon to do any sort of genre blending. But indie authors are like, well, I don’t care. I’m just gonna put the keywords on there. And then people will find the steampunk, vampire, LGBTQ+ horror thriller novel or something like that. And guess what? The readers are there and they come out of the woodwork

And you know, that’s, as I said, and as Johanna said, this is the coolest time ever to get into publishing that we have, we have this, like, this whole treasure chest in front of us that we can do this, we can do that. And, when I was starting out, you basically had this lockstep path. You did this and then did this and did this, and you know, again, 99% of the people never made it to each next step.

And if you made it, then you had your career in traditional publishing. Well, now you can do all kinds. You can run a Kickstarter, you can have your Patreon, you can, you can publish your own books and find your audience. You can, I personally make a lot more money just going to my own comic cons and selling off my own table than I do by selling

Well, I make money there too. But, you can have a perfectly good career selling your books by doing library talks every month. And still nobody would’ve heard of you, but you’re making money at it. And there are

[00:34:45] Matty: I am curious as to, for each of your programs, what is one thing that your students learn and they wouldn’t learn it anywhere else, and it sort of lights them up. Like, what is the big, aha moment for them? Johanna, do you wanna take a crack at that question?

[00:35:01] Johanna: It’s a fun time for you to ask that. ’cause I was just reading their mid-semester reflections today. We happen to be in the middle of the semester, so I was just reading exactly that and in the first year, I think so many of the aha moments are really about what is possible in craft. And what that means for what they wanna do in

you know, a lot of the reflections I was reading today are like, wow, I’d never thought about doing this genre blend before. And now you know, this really cool idea for the story I just brought to workshop with this AI monster that falls in love and, you know, goes through these themes of what it means to be disenfranchised and modern society.

Now I know how to do it right? Like those are the most exciting reflections for me. Those, those craft aha moments of. This is something I didn’t know I could do in a space that I feel very comfortable doing now and or I wanna take that experiment, I wanna take that risk and I’m

I think that’s, you know, as a teacher too, that’s just one of the most exciting things you can see is that somebody’s really lit up with a writing idea. And the second year of my program, I think a lot of the aha moments are around their thesis project. So that’s the moment. Like whether it’s an aha from somebody who’s written eight different novels and tried something really, or 20 different novels for that matter, and tried something really new with their thesis of going like, oh, I

And here I am doing long form fantasy or the aha of the person who had done a lot of short form when they came to us, but had never actually written like an 80,000 word novel. And did it start to finish? Drafted it? You know, the way our process works, you’re essentially drafting a

And for some folks that seems, you know, really. Really complex and like a very big challenge when they first come. so that sort of aha moment, there’s so many different aha moments across the thesis project. I could go on all day, so I’ll let Kevin pick up.

[00:36:41] Kevin: Well, because we make them hands-on for their solo book, their classic book that they do. they do every single step from start to finish that they go in. Find an old book that they wanna reprint and they prove that it’s outta copyright. And then they either scan or obtain the text somewhere and then they proofread it and then they, they’ll edit it as they need to, and then they’ll, they’ll lay it out, inve em.

They will design their own cover, they’ll make their own ads for it. And now realistically we teach them, you’re not gonna wanna do every step of this, but I want you to know how to do every step of this. And some of them like. we had won this this year. It’s like, I never, ever

I’m good at it. and they had never even thought about doing. Graphic design and, just, just the beautiful books that you can make with, with velum and layout software. And I, I just gave them the printing masters for our into the Deep dark Woods anthology. ’cause I’m, I did that

And I’m playing around and just, if you pay attention, you add the little flourishes and the step back artwork on the title pages and, and just all this fancy stuff that. Trad publishers just don’t bother doing anymore. It’s the indie people that are making the pretty beautiful books and, and they’re, they’re laying out their own books and they

And, and in fact, they all just finished, all 12 students did their 12 covers, and we just shared with them, here’s all 12 year covers. And they were just like, like stunned. Wow. Look at how beautiful those covers are. And we did them ourselves. And, and that’s, that’s the cool. Aha moment that they realize and, and I myself still get that aha moment when, when our books are published and I hold it and I go.

I can’t believe I did this. I remember being a kid looking up to publishers as the Gods on Olympus because only they could make a book. And now I’m like, but I just made this one. And it’s prettier than anything that Bantam did or Harper Collins did, or Simon and Schuster did. And you know, I, I think that that’s a power that we have that is

[00:38:51] Matty: Well, I do, love the educational aspect that I think you guys are sharing information that isn’t available anywhere. I love this idea of expansion that people, who thought they were gonna, become romance writers, turned out to be thriller authors or whatever that might be. And I love the empowerment aspect of giving people the tools and the, and the confidence in order to.

Dive into all of these and, and understand it from all different perspectives. I think it’s just a, a wonderful program.

[00:39:17] Matty: And, please, I’d love to give you a chance to each share where, people can go to find out more about your programs. Johanna, can we start with you?

[00:39:26] Johanna: I mean, we should all be on the same page, so literally the same webpage. If you go to Western Colorado University graduate program for creative writing. I think we can give you a link for the show notes. Matty, you can access all the information about our different concentrations, all the information about how to apply.

Kevin and I are always happy to talk to interested writers. As you can tell, we love talking about this program, so it’s not hard. It’s

[00:39:51] Kevin: we are open for applications now. Classes start in, well, their online classes in June, and then the residency is in

So that’s when you would have to Be in Colorado for one week in July. and I think apps close at the end of May, so it’s, still got plenty of time, but not like forever time. And we would love to see some of you guys as our students this year. So either take genre fiction first and then publishing, or the other way around.

[00:40:21] Matty: And then you’ll, you’ll leave with the full,

[00:40:25] Johanna: And hopefully a lovely writing community and many years of. I, I like to think that we are one of the few MFA programs in the country that recently spent 20 minutes talking about the genres of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles franchise. I say that jokingly,

[00:40:41] Matty: Well, that’s gotta be the best ad for the program.

[00:40:48] Johanna: Thank you so much.

Episode 327 - Media Tie-ins for Fun and Profit with Jonathan Maberry

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Jonathan Maberry discusses MEDIA TIE-INS FOR FUN AND PROFIT, including what media tie-in writing is, how the licensing works, the creative constraints of writing in someone else’s world, how to find open calls and pitch editors, the career strategy of when to pursue tie-in work and when to focus on your own brand, and why the writers who treat editing as a business interaction rather than a personal attack are the ones who keep getting hired.

Jonathan Maberry is a New York Times bestselling author, five-time Bram Stoker Award winner, four-time Scribe Award winner, Inkpot Award winner, poet, and comic book writer. He writes in multiple genres including suspense, thriller, horror, sci-fi, fantasy, and action. V-WARS (Netflix) was based on his books/comics; Alcon is developing his teen post-apocalyptic novels for film; and Chad Stahelski, director of John Wick, is developing his bestselling Joe Ledger thrillers for TV. Marvel’s BLACK PANTHER: WAKANDA FOREVER was partly based on his work. He’s president of the International Association of Media Tie-in Writers, and the editor of WEIRD TALES MAGAZINE.

Episode Links

www.jonathanmaberry.com

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanmaberry/

https://www.instagram.com/jonathanmaberry/

https://bsky.app/profile/jonathanmaberry.bsky.social

https://www.threads.com/@jonathanmaberry

https://substack.com/@jonathanmaberry

Summary & Transcript

Jonathan Maberry is a New York Times bestselling author, five-time Bram Stoker Award winner, four-time Scribe Award winner, and the president of the International Association of Media Tie-In Writers. He writes across multiple genres—suspense, thriller, horror, sci-fi, fantasy, and action—and his work has crossed into comics, television, and film, including Netflix’s V WARS and elements of Marvel’s BLACK PANTHER: WAKANDA FOREVER. In this conversation, Jonathan laid out the landscape of media tie-in writing: what it is, how to break in, and what working writers should know before they pitch.

WHAT MEDIA TIE-IN ACTUALLY MEANS

Jonathan explained that media tie-in falls into two main categories. The first is direct novelization—adapting a film or television script into a novel. His own entry into tie-in work was novelizing the 2010 remake of THE WOLFMAN, a project that required building a full gothic novel from a screenplay without ever seeing the finished film. The second category is original work set in a licensed world: writing a new Star Wars novel, for instance, or a short story set in the Aliens universe. A third, unofficial category—fan fiction—can’t be sold, but Jonathan noted that several successful tie-in careers started with fan fiction used as a writing sample to pitch licensed work.

NAVIGATING LICENSES AND RIGHTS HOLDERS

The conversation turned to the practical mechanics of finding and approaching license holders. Jonathan recommended starting with research: browsing bookstores or Amazon to identify which publishers hold specific licenses, then searching for the in-house editor overseeing that property. He described a hierarchy that runs from the license holder (often a film studio or game company) through a licensing overseer, to a publishing house editor, and finally to the writer. For properties not yet in print, he suggested contacting the vice president of licensing at the studio directly—an approach that led to his current involvement with the John Wick franchise.

Jonathan also clarified the public domain landscape, noting that what’s public domain varies by country. Sherlock Holmes and the Wizard of Oz are fair game in the United States, but James Bond and King Kong are still under license there while available in Australia. He pointed writers toward Project Gutenberg for the most accurate public domain listings and cautioned them to verify jurisdiction before proceeding.

THE CREATIVE CONSTRAINTS OF LICENSED WORLDS

Working within someone else’s intellectual property demands a particular creative temperament. Jonathan described writing for Blizzard Entertainment’s video game franchises, where characters cannot do anything in prose that they cannot do in gameplay—a constraint that requires absorbing extensive documentation before writing a single word. He noted that multiple executives will provide notes on a draft, sometimes contradicting one another, and that adaptability is essential.

For anthology editing, Jonathan described a chain of approval that can include the license holder, a licensing overseer, the in-house editor, and the anthology editor before a story even reaches the writer. He shared an example from his X-Files anthologies where stories written before the show’s revival had to be reconciled with continuity changes introduced by the new seasons—changes no one could have anticipated when the anthology was commissioned.

SPEED, OUTLINING, AND THE WORK ETHIC OF TIE-IN WRITING

Media tie-in writing operates on compressed timelines. Jonathan described completing an X-Files novel in five weeks and THE WOLFMAN novelization in seven. He emphasized that outlining is non-negotiable in tie-in work—license holders require a full outline every time—and that writers who rely on waiting for inspiration will not survive the deadlines.

His own routine involves writing three to four thousand words per day across two four-hour blocks, treating it as a professional workday that begins at the same time every morning. He recommended a rolling edit approach—reviewing the previous day’s work before starting new pages—rather than falling into the trap of endlessly revising early chapters. For unknown details that require research, he uses an inline placeholder (“EDIT THIS” followed by a note) so the draft’s momentum is never interrupted.

CAREER STRATEGY AND THE TIE-IN TRAP

Jonathan offered pointed advice about where media tie-in should sit in a writer’s career. He recommended establishing an independent voice first—through novels, short stories, comics, or indie publishing—and treating tie-in work as a complement to an existing brand rather than the foundation of one. The advances for tie-in novels typically run between five and eight thousand dollars, and writers who build their reputation primarily on licensed work can find it difficult to sell original material later.

For breaking in, he suggested that short stories offer the most accessible entry point. Writers can search for open anthology calls by Googling a license name plus “guidelines” with a one-year date filter. He also recommended joining the International Association of Media Tie-In Writers at iamtw.org and leveraging networking at conferences and through groups like his own Writer’s Coffeehouse Facebook page, where editors and established tie-in writers regularly participate.

THE BUSINESS OF BEING EDITED

Jonathan closed with advice that applies well beyond tie-in writing: take the ego out of the editing process. He noted that editing is a business function, not a personal attack, and that writers who push back on every edit or demand special treatment in anthologies quickly find themselves off editors’ lists. The writers who sustain long careers—he cited his friend R.L. Stine as an example—are the ones who treat the business side as business and reserve the personal investment for the actual writing.

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This transcript was created by Descript and cleaned up by Claude; I don’t review these transcripts in detail, so consider the actual interview to be the authoritative source for this information.

[00:00:00] Matty: Hello and welcome to The Indy Author Podcast. Today my guest is Jonathan Maberry. Hey, Jonathan, how are you doing?

[00:00:06] Jonathan: I am great. How are you?

[00:00:07] Matty: I am wonderful and pleased to have you here. And just to give our listeners and viewers a little bit of background on you—Jonathan Maberry is a New York Times bestselling author, five-time Bram Stoker Award winner, four-time Scribe Award winner, Inkpot Award winner, poet, and comic book writer.

He writes in multiple genres, including suspense, thriller, horror, sci-fi, fantasy, and action. V WARS on Netflix was based on his books and comics. He’s developing his teen post-apocalyptic novels for film, and Chad Stahelski, director of JOHN WICK, is developing his bestselling Joe Ledger thrillers for TV.

Marvel’s BLACK PANTHER: WAKANDA FOREVER was partly based on his work. And he’s president of the International Association of Media Tie-In Writers and the editor of Weird Tales magazine. And so I got to listen to several of Jonathan’s talks at Superstars Writing Seminars, and they were fantastic. And so he was kind enough to agree to join me for The Indy Author Podcast.

And as I was looking over his very impressive bio, I got very intrigued by the idea of media tie-in—the International Association of Media Tie-In Writers. And so we agreed that we’d chat a little bit about that today. And Jonathan, just to make sure we’re all coming at this from the same point of view—

[00:01:19] Matty: When you talk about media tie-in, what are you talking about?

[00:01:22] Jonathan: So there are two kinds of media tie-in.

[00:01:24] Jonathan: One is when you’re doing a direct novelization of a movie. Like, my first exposure to media tie-in was I was hired to novelize the script for the 2010 remake of THE WOLFMAN. And you don’t get to see the movie. You actually just get the script.

So you have to build a novel based on the script, which is a lot more—there’s a lot more involved than just simply wrapping a paragraph around each line in the script. You don’t know how the actors are going to inflect or deliver their lines. You don’t know what the costumes are going to look like.

There’s a lot of information you don’t have because you haven’t seen the film. So you have to do a body of research in order to build a good, strong novel about it. And I decided, since it was my fifth novel, and I wanted it to represent my fairly new career at the time—so I did research and I wrote a gothic novel.

And that was my first New York Times bestseller.

[00:02:24] Jonathan: Now, the other part of media tie-in is doing original works in licensed worlds. So if you write a Star Wars novel, or a Star Trek, or whatever—it doesn’t have to be a novelization of an episode or a movie. It’s an original work set in that world.

And the International Association of Media Tie-In Writers was created by Max Allan Collins and Lee Goldberg some years ago. And the whole thing is to celebrate that kind of writing. There’s good and there’s bad in everything. There have been some really sketchy, questionable media tie-in novels over the years, but there’s a lot more really good stuff.

And I think one of the areas that shines best is its original works. And we give out the Scribe Awards for these types of works in a variety of categories—from graphic novels to original novels and a couple different categories, to short stories, nonfiction, and so on. Movie scripts, so on.

It’s a lot of fun to be involved in it because you get to play with other people’s toys, and they’re really cool toys. But at the same time, you have to bring originality and game to your writing while still respecting the license and so on. And you have to work within the confines of the license as dictated by the license holder.

And sometimes that gets complicated. Like, for example, some years ago I did an anthology of Aliens versus Predator from the two different movie franchises. Both were owned by Fox, so we had to go through Fox licensing. But then now Disney owns those properties. So you would have to go through Disney, and that’s a complicated process.

They’re a very difficult company to work easily with. They’re a good company to work with, but complex. And so there’s a lot of that side of it. Some companies give you extensive guidelines for what they want and some don’t. With THE WOLFMAN, I got very little guidance other than—the Wolfman was, unlike Frankenstein and Dracula, there was never an original Wolfman novel.

There were werewolf novels, but the Wolfman Larry Talbot story was never novelized. So I had to write in that while hitting certain notes and ignoring temptation to go off completely on my own tangent. And I liked the book I came out with. It was a fun book.

It respected the original source material but built on it. And when I saw the movie—which unfortunately I did not like that much—the original script was gorgeous. David Self did an amazing script. They apparently shot the original script, but then they did a bunch of reshoots to remove a lot of the character development in favor of more gory action.

[00:04:54] Matty: Not thought that was a misstep. Yeah.

[00:04:56] Jonathan: They should have just done it originally. But so my novel doesn’t actually resemble the movie entirely. And unfortunately, the New York Times book reviewer said, “I don’t like the movie. Read the book instead.”

[00:05:09] Matty: Oh, well that’s a silver lining.

[00:05:11] Jonathan: Oh yeah, it got me onto the bestseller list. But at the same time did not endear me to Universal.

Like, it’s not my fault. They’re the ones that cut the movie, and I never spoke ill of the movie when it was out. Of course, I love the cast too. So media tie-in is a pretty complex world. Most of it—probably the biggest chunk of media tie-in is short stories. There’s a lot of licenses out there that are active for that.

And there are some older licenses that are not like modern-day name brands—like Carl Kolchak, the Night Stalker, and the Green Hornet and things like that. They’re still under license or still owned. You still have to get permission and probably pay fees. But at the same time, those aren’t the high-profile ones. They’re not on the level of Star Wars, where everyone in the world knows Star Wars. But it’s fun and it’s a great way to break into the career.

[00:06:04] Jonathan: There’s a third kind of media tie-in, but it’s the unofficial type—we call fan fiction. Which is where anybody just writes a story set in one of the literary or video or whatever worlds they like.

But you can’t sell that because it’s not under license, and the license holder will sue. But quite a few people started off writing fan fiction and used their fan fiction as a writing sample when breaking into media tie-in. And a lot of folks did that during the era of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

So Christopher Golden and Nancy Holder and so on kind of broke in through the fan fiction direction, but what they pitched was an actual licensed thing, and they wound up building excellent careers. And his career is still going.

[00:06:47] Matty: It is interesting. As you were talking, fan fiction popped into my head as sort of, from my perspective, one end of the complexity or authorization spectrum. With the other end of the spectrum being like doing work with Marvel or Disney or things like that.

And then it seems like there’s a huge gap in between there that if people are thinking about—like, oh, I love this world, I would love to write a media tie-in—you sort of suggested that fan fiction might be an entrée to that. What are some other things they should be doing?

[00:07:21] Jonathan: Let me clarify. The fan fiction—you can’t sell the fan fiction. But if you want to pitch to, say, Titan, which does a lot of media tie-in books, and you’re a published author—if you go to them and say, hey, I’m interested in writing a novel. I have a pitch for you. But here’s also a sample of my writing in that world. And if you had written fan fiction about one of those licensed worlds, you can include the URL to that and it becomes a writing sample. So it serves as a writing sample to help you sell into the paid license world. Not all editors want to see it, but I’ve known quite a few, myself included, who have wanted to look at that.

Because you get to see how that person handles the license. Because you can handle it well—you bring new storytelling and nuance to that character or that license. But some people are writing adoring fan fiction, or they’re playing with it a little too much. Like, when Sherlock came out, there was a ton of erotic romance stuff that came out with Holmes and Watson.

And where it’s interesting, and people have suggested or wondered whether Holmes and Watson may have been a couple—even back then—it wasn’t written that way and it wasn’t shot that way, and that would not have been a good piece of fan fiction to use to sell. If you want to do a Sherlock piece.

[00:08:48] Jonathan: Now of course, side note there—Sherlock Holmes himself is in public domain, and any characters that have gone into public domain you actually can write about. You just can’t write about the specific version of it that’s shown in Sherlock or the new show Young Sherlock or Watson or Elementary or any of the other Sherlock Holmes shows. You can’t do that specific version, but you can do a Sherlock Holmes story just like you can do a Wizard of Oz story, because the Frank L. Baum Wizard of Oz books are in public domain.

So that is also kind of a neat thing. It’s not licensed work anymore because the license has expired, but you get to play with those characters. One caution though—when people look up what is public domain, Project Gutenberg usually has the most accurate list, but you have to be careful because what’s public domain in America is different than what’s public domain in Canada or Australia.

Or England. Other English-speaking countries don’t necessarily have the same things because they’re different actual countries with different laws related to copyright. So for example, in Australia you can write a King Kong or a James Bond story. Can’t do that in America without a license. So you have to be careful navigating the world.

But if you learn about it—and joining our organization, iamtw.org, International Association of Media Tie-In Writers—that’s a question you can ask. You can also find guidelines on our website, a lot of other things that can kind of help you move forward into that world, if that’s what you want to do.

[00:10:19] Matty: I did have a question about that—the idea of the different markets having different guidelines for what’s in the public domain. So if I were an American writer and I wanted to write about James Bond and I was only selling the story in Australia—if I got my facts right there—is that permissible, or is it governed—

[00:10:36] Jonathan: It’s where it’s published. So if another country has it as public domain, you can write for that country. It cannot be published in America—not until the rights eventually expire. And I don’t see the James Bond rights ever expiring because they keep renewing them. The original novels may expire, but they were written in the fifties and sixties, so it’s going to be another twenty, twenty-five years before even the first one—CASINO ROYALE—hits public domain.

[00:11:04] Matty: It seems as if there must also be hierarchies within the companies that you might want to approach. So maybe your first crack isn’t going to be for Disney. But how do people find other organizations that might be interested in being approached about media tie-ins?

[00:11:22] Jonathan: Well, there’s a couple different ways. You can browse in a bookstore and browse online, because you can see who’s publishing it. So if you want to do a Doctor Who thing or something, Titan may be publishing that, or Dark Horse, or a couple other companies that publish media tie-in.

It’ll say on the cover which company it is. Or you can go to any book-selling site—Amazon or indie or whatever—and just look up the book. And they always list the publisher. Now, once you know the license name—so say if you were looking up Aliens and Titan Books—you can just put in a Google search: Aliens, Titan Books, editor.

And then very often the editor’s name will pop up. Used to be Steve Saffel. He retired about two years ago, but for years he was the guy overseeing that at Titan. So if you did a search, his name popped up as the editor overseeing a lot of that.

And it changes. Editors come and go. Licenses come and go too. For example, IDW had the Doctor Who license, then Titan had it. Somebody else may have the novel rights and somebody else may have the comic book rights. So you have to—once you decide which form you’re going to do—short stories, novels, comics—you have to then find out who has the rights for that.

And usually it’s going to be in a Wikipedia search, an Amazon or Barnes & Noble search, indie bookstore search. It’ll have that information there.

[00:12:46] Matty: So you’re looking for people that have already ventured into the media tie-in world, and you’re asking to add to that catalog of works—

[00:12:54] Jonathan: Yes. Unless—

[00:12:55] Matty: —with those characters or that—

[00:12:56] Jonathan: —you have an idea for something that hasn’t been done but you think could be. And in which case, almost always the prose rights are tied to a publisher, even though the studios may own them. Like, for example, I’m doing some stuff with the John Wick license right now, and Lionsgate owns the rights to it because they make the movies. And everything that’s a byproduct of the movies is part of their license.

So Dark Horse may do the comics, Macmillan may do the novels. You have to find out who. But if there’s none of that stuff out already, you could just simply say, well, who owns the rights to John Wick? And it’ll turn out to be Lionsgate. There’s always a vice president of licensing at every company.

Or some—if it’s not a vice president, it’s somebody similar. But whoever’s in charge of licensing, that’s the person to reach out to. And sometimes that is what it takes. And I’ve had success with just simply shooting for the person who has the rights, and then they make a deal with a publisher. And with John Wick, they’re in discussions with a comic book company and a book publishing company for projects that I would be involved in.

And I kind of kicked that off a little bit.

[00:14:10] Matty: I can imagine from the creative side, it would be quite a different experience to be writing within a world that someone else has created. So you had said earlier about sometimes certain rights holders are more stringent about the guidelines they put down for what you can and can’t do with their characters.

And I can imagine a couple of ways people might come to media tie-in—one would be they just love a franchise or a world and they want to be more actively a part of it. I can also imagine there could be people who just have a knack for being able to hit that perfect balance between their own creativity but working within the boundaries that are set for them.

Are there certain creative tendencies that lend themselves easier to this kind of work?

[00:14:55] Jonathan: The more precious you are about your own work, the less you’re going to be open to doing media tie-in, because it’s not your work. And I’ll give you an example. Blizzard Entertainment, which has a lot of video games—they hire me to do short stories tied to their video games. They have a very complex set of rules about what the characters can and cannot do.

Because it’s based on the gameplay of the games. You can’t have a character do something in a story that the character can’t do in the game. You have to stay within those rules. And you may not be familiar with the rules. Like, for example, I don’t play video games at all. I have nothing against them, I just don’t have the time.

But I get hired to write video game short stories. So the license holder will send me a huge PDF, sometimes many PDFs, and then part of what earns you the fee is going through and learning about that gameplay enough to be able to write that story, and then you pitch it.

But then every executive tied to that game is going to give you notes. And some of those notes will actually contradict one another because they don’t bother reading the other person’s notes. It’s really a challenge. The editors who work with the freelancers like me have to wrangle all those cats.

And it’s one of the reasons they overpay you to write a video game short story.

[00:16:24] Jonathan: Now, if you’re writing a story for a regular anthology like an Aliens anthology, the editor is going to have to deal with a lot of the rights. Now, we may then have to vet pitches and then drafts of stories back through the licensing people to make sure that it’s not interfering with anything.

And an example of that would be the X-Files. I did three X-Files anthologies as editor, and we did those before they came back and did the additional seasons. Those last two seasons, which were like fifteen, twenty years after the show was off the air.

And when I pitched the anthology, that show was not even in development. But we pitched the anthology and coincidentally—maybe coincidentally—a few months later they decided to do a new season. And there were some things in that season that wouldn’t work with some of the short stories, because we wanted the stories to be in continuity.

Some people wrote stories that were set after the original series ended with Mulder and Scully. Well, the nature of their relationship was eventually changed and edited for that new season.

Well, that new season then contradicts that story, and the story can’t be canon. So sometimes you don’t know what you can’t do until you send it in. In the Aliens versus Predator anthology, we had a couple people who wrote very visionary stories, but we were told they can’t do that one thing. And they don’t necessarily give you an explanation of why.

And then two years later you see the movie PREY come out. Well, they were working on something that had a similar theme, but they don’t want to tell you that, because they’re not obligated to tell you. They just say, you can’t do that. Give us another pitch. You have to be very adaptable.

[00:18:06] Matty: Yeah, I can also imagine that because of the learning curve you described—like with video games—that once you’ve absorbed all that information in the PDFs, you probably want to tap that opportunity for all it’s worth. Because you get more ROI the second and third and fourth story, because you know the world now. You don’t have to be learning a whole new world.

[00:18:25] Jonathan: Right. But unlike most editing situations, with the game thing, they may have decided how many short stories they need for the new expansion of a game. Pitching more would probably not get you anywhere, because they have their own agenda, which again they’re not sharing their calendar with you.

But you can ask. You can always ask, hey, I did the story. Certainly open to more of these things. When they know that you’re open to more—and maybe five months later you ping them again saying, hey, I’m looking forward to the release of that story, and I’m certainly open for more.

Sometimes that will help them remember that you were an easy person to work with, and they will send you another project. Or sometimes it’s not in the same world though. So after I had done a Diablo IV story for that game, they liked my writing enough that they asked me if I would do a World of Warcraft story.

And now I’ve done four World of Warcraft stories for Blizzard. But I try to stay in touch with editors like that because you want to stay on their radar—more in the front of the mind than the back. Also, if you go to things like Comic-Con, either New York or San Diego, those people are usually at the Blizzard booth.

A lot of times the executives and the editors are at the booth. Doesn’t hurt to go and chat them up a little bit.

[00:19:41] Matty: It also made me think—the idea of the guardrails that you have to stay within—that I don’t know how many opportunities there would be to write media tie-in for secondary characters. Like Mycroft. I don’t know. Or Mrs.—

[00:19:55] Jonathan: Tough, tough. They did that with Buffy. There were Willow novels and Angel novels and Oz novels. So a lot of times if a character’s breaking out and you pitch a novel based on that character—

[00:20:06] Jonathan: Now, little side note—in media tie-in, you’re expected to turn that novel in fast. I’ve had media tie-in deals where I’ve had five weeks to do a novel.

Bam. This is after all the getting through all the licensing and wrangling back and forth. That’s the time that’s left. And they say, can you do it? And your answer should be yes. And then you go and do it. I did a novel about Dana Scully as a teenager.

By the time we cleared that deal, I had five weeks to do it. With THE WOLFMAN—they, for some reason, got so far into the shooting and editing of the film, and they wanted the novel out there. And that left me seven weeks to write that.

[00:20:53] Matty: Can you just describe what that five weeks looked like? Like, how did that break down for you?

[00:20:58] Jonathan: A lot of coffee. Well, the thing about writing is—some people, and unfortunately there’s a chunk of our colleagues who seem to lean into the mythology of writing. They have to wait for the muse to hit them. They have to be wearing their lucky pair of socks or whatever. And all that does is delay the actual writing.

Get your ass in the chair and start writing. Start outlining. And you will need to outline. You can’t be a pantser and do media tie-in. They want a full outline every time. Not a question. So if you’re not already a plotter, it’s a skill to add.

You may not want to do it with your own stuff, but for media tie-in, you’ll have to. Anyway. So as that process is unfolding, you have to be able to—what I did is like, okay, what can I reasonably do per day? How many words can I do? Now, I’m a fast writer anyway. I write between three and four thousand words every day, so I’ve always been a fast writer.

Last year I did close to a million words for publication. And I’ve done two years where I’m over a million words for publication. So they can give me a project like that and I could do it. But this was early in my career with THE WOLFMAN—it was my fifth book. I had never done anything shorter than nine months for a novel.

So I had to sit down and say, okay, well it’s X number of words. How many words can I do per day? I didn’t take a lot of days off during that process, but I had to take some, because you have to have a life. So I just made sure that when I sat down to write, that was my day. That was my business day.

It’s like going to work. And one of the things that helped me set my mindframe for it is—I write from home, my bedroom’s right next door to my office here. I don’t come out here in my pajamas to write. I take a shower, I get dressed for work. Because that helps me set my mind.

I’m in my chair at the same time every morning. I write for four hours. I take a lunch and exercise break, and I write for four more hours. That’s my day. And if I don’t want to do something as regimented as that, don’t become a professional. And don’t do media tie-in, because that’s what’s expected of you.

You need to just get in the saddle and ride. That’s the thing. And editing—one of the things that slows most people down is they edit while writing. The only type of editing while writing that has any real value in terms of productivity is a rolling edit where you read yesterday’s stuff, tweak it a little bit, and then go into today’s.

But some people fall back and they keep trying to revise the early parts. And the problem there is that chews up days and days of time without advancing the completion of the manuscript. And also it means that some parts of the book will have been edited more often than the later parts of the book. So you now have an uneven book.

So I keep—when I’m doing a media tie-in project, especially when I’m on a deadline—I have the file I’m working on and then I have another file I can toggle over to, another Word document of revision notes. And I’m constantly making notes to myself.

That way, when I’m done, I have a plan. And if there are little things in there that I don’t know while writing, I have a little code I put on the page in all caps: EDIT THIS, and then a note to myself. It might be—what type of handgun were the police using in London in 1895, which was a factor?

EDIT THIS, check handgun, 1895, city police. And I just move on. Later on I can do a search—like a day when I’m maybe either done with the draft or I just have a little extra time—I’ll search on EDIT THIS and then do those spot researches. And that way I don’t slow the progress of the manuscript down.

[00:24:39] Matty: When you’re doing this work as media tie-in during that five weeks or seven weeks or whatever it ends up being, is there a lot of back and forth? Or once you start, you’ve gotten the outline signed off and so you can just roll along with it?

[00:24:50] Jonathan: The back and forth is before you start writing and after you’ve turned in your draft. During the time that you’re just writing, you may get a note from the editor saying, how’s it going?—which is basically him saying, please for the love of God hit your deadline, because he’s on a production schedule that can’t be altered because it’s set by the film company.

They’re not going to alter it for a publisher. What they might do if you miss deadlines is find another publisher. So you don’t want that. You want to make sure the editor looks good and satisfies their end of the contract. And that editor will be pleased with you and likely keep you in mind for further work.

Which has happened.

[00:25:29] Matty: I’m interested in the anthologies because I can imagine the process for that is somewhat different. As an editor of an anthology, you have sort of a similar role to the VP of Rights.

[00:25:43] Jonathan: To a degree. I become another step in it. So you have the license holder, then you have the person within the license—so say the VP of licensing sets the job—then you have somebody who is kind of overseeing licensing. They’re the ones who should know that license very well and be able to answer all questions.

Then you have your in-house editor at the publishing house. Then you, and then the writers you’ve hired for the anthology. It’s a lot of folks. So when I’m doing an anthology, what I usually do—what makes it easier—looking at the anthologies by different companies, you see their different policies.

Some—like Titan—love to have a bunch of New York Times bestseller names as marquee names on the cover. That’s their big thing. They love being able to go out there with a lot of New York Times bestsellers. It’s the model.

[00:26:29] Jonathan: So in order to do an anthology, I need to reach out to colleagues and say, hey, I’m pitching—you never say the deal’s locked down until it’s actually locked down—I’m pitching an anthology on this topic. Please keep this off social media. It’s on the down low. If a deal comes through with pro rates for stories of this length, with a due date approximately X number of months out, might you be interested?

So what you have is a list of people who said they might be interested if the deal points work out. That’s the list you take to the in-house editor to pitch it. And if it’s approved, you then have to lock those people down.

[00:27:06] Jonathan: Now I’m doing an anthology right now with Henry Herz, a buddy of mine. And we’re doing one called BIG BAD BOOK OF KAIJU—giant monsters like Godzilla and so on.

We can’t use those licenses because we don’t have access to them. They’re all different companies. So it’s all original kaiju. So it’s not media tie-in, but it’s media tie-in adjacent. And when we were doing this, we sold this idea to Titan Books. They liked our list of New York Times bestsellers.

They had some other suggestions. We were able to contact some of those, get them in there. But along the way, three of our people had to bail—one for health issues, one for a book deadline that got shifted on them, and another one because of some other issue. So we lost three of our marquee names. I was able to replace two of them with New York Times bestsellers, but the third, we had to just get a simply really good writer.

[00:28:00] Jonathan: Now, I prefer not to stock my table of contents based on how many copies of books they’ve sold. I curate mine.

For the most part, I want to base it on whose writing I really admire and whose business practices I like. And so generally when I do an anthology—I’m doing my twenty-eighth now, I think, somewhere in that zone—I’ll usually curate eighty percent of the people. And if I don’t have a collaborator—I do with this one—

If I don’t have a collaborator, I’ll fish around for some folks. I’ll do a lot of reading of short stories in recent anthologies and see whose work I like and maybe try to bring in some folks I haven’t worked with before. What I don’t do is open call. Open call drives me absolutely out of my mind. I did that when I took over Weird Tales as editor.

The first issue, I curated all of it but one story, and I put up an open call for short stories. 12,421. Yeah. So I don’t do that anymore. Now I do—if I do an open call, it’s usually going to be a pitch. Give me a one-paragraph pitch, because I can read a bunch of those in a day. Reading 12,000 short stories is insane.

[00:29:14] Matty: Writers whose craft you appreciate and their business process—can you talk a little bit about what you’re talking about there?

[00:29:24] Jonathan: There are some writers out there—I will not name names—but some writers out there don’t like to be edited. They don’t like to be told that their word choice may not be the right word choice. And they get really aggressive about it. I’m not looking to get into a fist fight with somebody over the edit.

Editing takes something—the version you turn in is the version you felt most passionate about. The editing process gives you an objective view on that, and also tries to edge closer to the version of that that would likely sell the most copies. It is a business decision. Writing is art. Publishing is business. And a lot of people conflate the two.

They think rejection of a story or edit notes means that it’s a personal attack. There’s nothing personal in this business. It’s a business. The personal is when you actually write. But when you’re being edited and worked through the business part, take the ego and the emotions out of gear.

It’s a business thing. Follow the business things. And it doesn’t matter if you’re mainly traditional or mainly indie. If you’re working with media tie-in, that is trad. And so you have to follow the rules of trad in that you have to follow the business etiquette. And that’s easy enough for anyone to do.

But a lot of people—they push and push and push, or they’ll try to argue with you on every single edit. I’ve been edited—I’ve written fifty-five novels and well over two hundred short stories and comics. I’ve been edited on everything. Plus twelve hundred feature articles I did. I’ve been edited on every single one.

Editing makes your work better. But you don’t have to follow every edit note. You can say, I don’t agree with this change. I want to keep it, and here’s my reason. If you can have a decent reason, editors will have a reasonable conversation with you. If you just simply reject without reason, they’re probably going to put you on a list of—well, I’m not working with this person again, because I just don’t need it.

And also there are people who think that their stories should be given—their name on the cover, guaranteed, and their story being the first one in the anthology. There’s no one I would guarantee that slot to. And I’ve worked with some mega bestsellers. I mean, my friend R.L. Stine, who sold more books than anyone alive except J.K. Rowling—he—not that he ever would demand something like that, but even if he made a demand like that, it’s up to me as to what order the stories fall in.

That’s not his decision. Luckily Bob is a really understanding guy and has been in the business for a long time and doesn’t make those demands. But I have—

[00:31:54] Matty: Probably been in the business a long time because of that.

[00:31:57] Jonathan: Yes. And he has sold, what, three hundred million books. Now, earlier we talked a little bit about playing with other people’s toys, and I kind of got off the topic.

I want to go back to that just for a second.

[00:32:11] Jonathan: So one of the situations in which you really have to understand how a license works is working with comics. So I got hired by Marvel because of my novels. The editor-in-chief read one of my novels and hired me to write Punisher and Wolverine and other things.

And some of these characters have forty, fifty, sixty, seventy years of backstory. There’s no way to know every story that’s ever been written about that character. So the editors there give you like a general outline of—here’s what’s been going on with this character.

But a lot of it you have to do on your own. And it is a daunting amount of material sometimes. Like, when I did Black Panther, I needed to know what was the state of Wakanda, the state of T’Challa’s character. Who is he? He’d just had a really big story arc written about that part of his life.

He was with a woman, Yuriko, and she dies. And all these things have to happen. So I needed to just go do my homework. One of my exposures to this sort of thing is—

Max Brooks, who is Mel Brooks’s son, and he’s a bestselling author of WORLD WAR Z and THE DEVOLUTION and a bunch of other things. And he was editing an anthology of G.I. Joe stories. Now, when I was a kid, G.I. Joe was a twelve-inch-tall World War II action figure. But when my son was a kid, G.I. Joe was this little science fiction action story thing.

It’s a completely different world. And so I told Max—Max asked me if I wanted to do a story for it. I said I don’t know the characters. He did something that’s a little more unusual. He actually had reached out to Hasbro and they sent me a box of G.I. Joe toys, graphic novels, and DVDs. So yes, I spent a day sitting on my floor, reading comics, watching cartoons, and playing with toys for research.

Because I’m a responsible working professional. And I was able to write a G.I. Joe story for it.

[00:36:12] Matty: That is very interesting. Yeah—when the original creative product is a toy, or I’m thinking of—like, this is a little bit different, but in terms of evolution of a character, like the James Bond of today looks quite different than the James Bond of CASINO ROYALE. And that evolution is coming from somewhere.

I guess I always assumed it was coming from the screenwriters, but—

[00:36:34] Jonathan: Most of it is. But sometimes they take notes from what people have done about it. I mean, I know that there was a definite nod to the John Gardner James Bond novels when they were doing the Pierce Brosnan James Bond movies. Because he was writing them a little more differently.

And then there were some later James Bond novels—I forget who did them—where the personality of Bond was a lot rougher. And that informed some of the Daniel Craig scripts. So sometimes it goes back and forth.

[00:37:06] Jonathan: With THE WOLFMAN—when I turned in my first draft, there were a couple scenes in there that weren’t in the script. And they wound up in the movie, because they—

[00:37:16] Matty: Oh wow.

[00:37:17] Jonathan: It’s work for hire. They can do anything they want with it. And so they were doing reshoots. I don’t know if you ever saw the movie, but there’s a scene where Emily Blunt is kind of running from the wolf, and she falls down on the edge of a cliff, and the Wolfman’s going after her. She’s like, “Lawrence, you know who I am.”

Well, that’s from my novel, not the script. And it’s kind of cool. You don’t get extra money for it, unfortunately, because it is work for hire. Like, when Disney Marvel used so many of my elements from my Black Panther run on the comic back in 2008 and 2009—

They showed up as—I mean, I was the first one to put Shuri in the armor. I put her up against Namor. I created the Midnight Angels and a bunch of other things that made it into the movie. I didn’t get paid more for it. But it did—my career worlds of good. And the graphic novel that collects all the comics I wrote for Marvel with that character—the sales for that went crazy, and that was royalties. So—

[00:38:10] Matty: And are the comics you’ve worked on—are they all—like, what was the origin of those? Were they movies or—

[00:38:17] Jonathan: No, no, no. I didn’t write anything tied to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I wrote Marvel—Marvel. And also, this was 2008. They were just launching IRON MAN, the first movie in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. So that was not even on the horizon, really. I started writing for Marvel before Disney even bought Marvel.

But so you have to do research. And again, sometimes they provide you with information. Marvel does not, which is weird. So I subscribed to the Marvel—there’s a database where you can access seventy years’ worth of Marvel comics. So I just did a lot of that. Plus I bought a lot of graphic novels, and some of them are on the shelves behind me here.

And I did my research so I could write the characters. And what’s fun though is when you’ve written some stuff in, say, your own run on Black Panther—I did a couple of things related to the vibranium, the metal that they use—and then the person who took the comic after me, and also the person who wrote Spider-Man after me—

Both used elements of my story, because now it’s part of the Marvel official canon. And so they read my stuff and said, I’ll take that element, I can build on it here. And that’s perfectly cool. And it’s fun for us to see those little echoes going through it.

[00:39:34] Matty: Yeah. I think anyone who enjoys Easter eggs as a reader would enjoy that experience—and maybe planting Easter eggs as the creator of tie-in material.

[00:39:43] Jonathan: Yep. And with comics, I’ve since gone on to do my own comics with Dark Horse, IDW, and others. And one of those—V WARS—became its own license, became a TV series, which was wonderfully fun. And another one I have, that I won a Bram Stoker Award for, called BAD BLOOD—

We’re in discussions with a company in Germany about adapting that for TV in Europe. But see, that’s my license. So I get to be the person they have to go through for continuity and so on. And I would get paid. And that’s nice.

[00:40:16] Matty: So if you want a career where you’re doing your own stuff, media tie-in should not be your first call. Establish your own voice as a writer in any form that you can.

[00:40:33] Jonathan: Novels, short stories, whatever. Indie, published, comics, whatever. Establish your voice. And then when you do media tie-in, that’s a byproduct of the brand. If you just focus on media tie-in at first to make your bones, it becomes your brand. You become a media tie-in writer. Media tie-in novels, though they will often come back to you with book after book after book to do—

They don’t pay very much. I mean, the advances for media tie-in books are in the five to eight thousand dollar range. Which, if you’ve never published a book, sounds yummy. But if you’re a working pro, that’s a lot of work for not a lot of money. So those of us who continue to do media tie-in into our career—our primary focus is our main stuff.

Our stuff. Media tie-in is side projects that are fun for our regular readers to go look at. But it’s not what we define ourselves as. And I have friends who have gotten stuck in the media tie-in world. They’ll try to get their own stuff out there, but they’re known for media tie-in, and their own stuff doesn’t sell because editors see that their biggest stuff is all writing in someone else’s universe.

It’s okay if it’s a side thing or an additional thing you’re doing, but it shouldn’t be the main thing. Second thing—one of the ways to break in, one of the best ways to break in is through short stories. If it’s an expired license and you are a writer and you have writer friends, you can create a little LLC publishing company and do a Sherlock Holmes anthology or a Wizard of Oz anthology.

Without having to pay licensing fees, because they’re public domain. And since your company does not bear your name, it is the name of your group. It does not have any of the resistance some people might have to it being indie published. Then they get to read it and find out the quality is every bit as good as trad. And then you can build from there.

The company JournalStone started sort of that way. Chris Payne was a guy who wrote a couple of nonfiction books, couldn’t sell them. He self-published them under the banner of JournalStone. Now he’s gone on to publish thousands of books from other people, including some stuff that have hit bestseller lists.

I’ve published extensively with him. But one of the quick ways of finding an active license that is doing an anthology—put in your favorite license name—CSI, Supernatural, whatever it’s going to be—in a Google search with the word “guidelines.” And then set the search for no more than a year back.

The guidelines will be submission guidelines. If there is an open call for stories and an anthology of stories in that license, that will pop up in a Google search. And a lot of people have found it that way. So it’s an easy shortcut.

[00:43:21] Jonathan: And also going to writers’ conferences. My own group, Writer’s Coffeehouse, is a—we have a free Facebook page and we do free networking and so on. You can go there and say, hey, does anybody know of any media tie-in license anthologies? Post it. We’ll start a conversation, because God knows there’s a good thirty or forty editors of media tie-in stuff who are in that group.

Quite a lot of other writers. And a lot of writers—professionals like myself—we wear a lot of hats. We’re writers, we’re editors, we’re this, we’re that. So sometimes the writers that you talk to, some of them may be editors for media tie-in, or have written novels for media tie-in and know who the in-house editors are.

Networking does a lot of good in media tie-in.

[00:44:04] Matty: Yeah, I’m a big proponent of networking in all its forms—media tie-in or not. But I love finding that as another example of that. And I know as the president of International Association of Media Tie-In Writers, is there anything you’d like to add about the benefits they offer members or the information they provide?

[00:44:21] Jonathan: Quite often, because of being the president of the group, my visibility makes me a target for license holders. Whether it’s an editor or a company will say, hey, do you or any of the people in your group know this license? I had one—I can’t name it right now, it’s under NDA—but they reached out to me and said, hey, do any of your people write in this genre, or read this sort of stuff, or play this game, or whatever?

And then I go on our group page and say, hey—if you’re a fan of this license, hit me with your background on it, your bio, and your list of published media tie-in credits. Because I want to pass it along to an editor. And I’ve done that a lot of times and gotten a lot of people paid gigs because we’re the organization.

And probably only about sixty percent of publishing, of movie studios, know that there’s an actual organization. But six years ago when I took over that group, it was about fifteen percent. So I’ve been trying to build that up—having more awareness of our group—and that brings more work our way.

[00:45:29] Matty: Yeah, that’s so great.

[00:45:31] Matty: Well, Jonathan, I don’t want to take up too much of your time, but it was lovely to speak with you. I’m so glad to have gotten an expert perspective on the behind the scenes of media tie-ins.

[00:45:40] Jonathan: It’s a lot of fun too.

[00:45:42] Matty: It does sound like a lot of fun. I think about some of the franchises I’ve loved. I was a big X-Files fan, a big Fringe fan. I can imagine it would be super fun to write media tie-ins for some—

[00:45:52] Jonathan: Well, speaking of which—I mean, X-Files is coming back. Ryan Coogler is bringing it back to TV. And as soon as that casting is completed and it’s actually in production, I will be pitching more X-Files anthologies.

[00:46:06] Matty: That’s so great. I’m going to keep an eye out for that and rewatch some of the episodes that I haven’t watched for however many years.

[00:46:13] Jonathan: Yeah, I wouldn’t pay too much attention to those last two seasons they did—the ones that they did when they came back. There were only a couple good episodes in there. And there’s a reason it only lasted two more seasons coming back.

[00:46:23] Matty: I don’t think I even watched those at all, because the whole idea of them coming back was kind of not what I wanted to experience—which maybe suggests I shouldn’t be writing media tie-ins.

[00:46:33] Jonathan: There were two or three really good ones. And some that were like—I don’t know why they even bothered. But, of course, they didn’t bother consulting me or any of my writer friends, who all said, those are the good ones, those are the bad ones.

That happens. That’s opinion. But media tie-in’s always looking for new talent. So there’s that.

[00:46:51] Matty: Yeah, it’s a great tip. And it sounds like you have some other things going on outside of media tie-in. So if people want to hear more about that, where should they go to find out?

[00:46:59] Jonathan: Well, normally I would direct them immediately to my website, but it is down for a couple of days. But it’s jonathanmaberry.com. And when it’s back up—if anyone listening to this is a writer, there’s a page on my website called Free Stuff for Writers. It has tons of free downloadable PDFs, one of my comic book scripts, all sorts of stuff. Go to that.

But also I’m all over social media—Jonathan Maberry. And Tuesday I have my new book coming out, which is RED EMPIRE, the fifteenth in the Joe Ledger series. I’m currently writing the sixteenth. And that is the series that’s in development by the director of JOHN WICK.

[00:47:34] Matty: Congratulations, and thank you very much.

[00:47:36] Jonathan: This was a pleasure. Thanks.

Episode 321 - Optimizing the ROI of an Author Assistant with Kevin Tumlinson

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Kevin Tumlinson discusses OPTIMIZING THE ROI OF AN AUTHOR ASSISTANT, including how authors can use an author assistant to improve marketing ROI, which publishing and marketing tasks make sense to outsource, how to evaluate return on investment, how AI can support an author assistant’s work, and how indie authors can free up time to write more while building a scalable, sustainable author business.

J. Kevin Tumlinson is an award-winning and bestselling author, a prolific podcaster and public speaker, and Chief Brand Officer of Author Anchor.

Episode Links

https://authoranchor.com/

https://www.kevintumlinson.com/

https://kevintumlinson.substack.com/

Kevin’s previous appearances:

Episode 283 - Writing Pivots and the Power of Humility with Kevin Tumlinson

Episode 202 - Acting on Inspiration Anywhere with Kevin Tumlinson

Summary

In this episode of The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Kevin Tumlinson about how authors can use an author assistant to improve marketing ROI, reduce administrative overload, and build a more sustainable publishing business. Their conversation focuses on practical strategies for outsourcing author marketing and business tasks, evaluating return on investment, and integrating AI responsibly, while keeping the author’s voice and brand intact.

AUTHOR ASSISTANTS AND AUTHOR MARKETING
Matty opens the discussion by framing the challenge many indie authors face: marketing is both essential and time-consuming, and often the work authors most want to outsource. Kevin explains that author assistants can handle nearly any online marketing task an author is expected to do, short of public-facing appearances. These tasks include managing ads on platforms such as Facebook and Amazon, handling social media posting, crafting and managing newsletters, setting up Shopify stores, or even helping run Kickstarter campaigns. The key, Kevin notes, is identifying what the author needs most help with and what activities are creating friction in the business.

They clarify that an author assistant is not limited to marketing alone, but marketing is where many authors first seek help. Kevin emphasizes that authors should start by asking themselves which tasks they dislike or consistently avoid, as these are often the best candidates for delegation. Outsourcing these responsibilities allows authors to focus more time and energy on writing, which is the core revenue-generating activity for most publishing businesses.

BALANCING AUTHOR BRAND AND DELEGATION
A concern Matty raises is how authors can outsource marketing tasks without losing their personal voice or brand identity. Kevin stresses the importance of establishing a clear author brand before bringing on an assistant. Brand, in this context, means how readers identify the author, what they expect from their work, and how the author presents themselves across platforms. Once that foundation is in place, an author assistant can help amplify the brand rather than dilute it.

They discuss hybrid approaches to content creation, such as having an assistant draft posts that the author edits to match their voice, or having the author create core content while the assistant handles posting and formatting. Kevin suggests that video is an especially effective tool for preserving authenticity, noting that authors can record short videos or interviews and then have an assistant repurpose the content into shorts, reels, or long-form videos for YouTube. This approach allows authors to remain visible and recognizable while delegating the technical and repetitive aspects of distribution.

SPECIALISTS VS. GENERALISTS
Matty and Kevin explore whether authors should hire a single generalist or multiple specialists. Kevin advocates for specialists whenever possible, especially for tasks that require technical expertise such as video editing, ad management, or design. However, he also sees value in having an initial author assistant who understands the author’s workflows, preferences, and brand. This person can act as a coordinator or manager when additional specialists are brought in.

Kevin explains that authors should not expect one person to do everything, as that creates bottlenecks and burnout. Instead, authors can gradually build a small team, each handling specific responsibilities. Consistency, especially in areas like YouTube posting or social media, is often more important than perfection, and an assistant can help maintain that consistency while the author focuses on higher-value work.

ONBOARDING AND DOCUMENTING PROCESSES
One of the most practical parts of the conversation centers on onboarding and process documentation. Matty notes that working with an assistant often feels harder before it gets easier, particularly in the early stages. Kevin agrees and emphasizes that authors should never hand off a task that is not documented. However, he reframes this as an opportunity rather than a burden.

Kevin recommends using the author assistant to help create or refine documentation as their first assignment. For example, an assistant might document the steps for editing and posting a podcast episode or managing a Kickstarter campaign. This collaborative process helps both parties learn how to work together, establishes clear expectations, and results in reusable systems. Kevin explains that this documentation also protects the author if the assistant leaves, making future onboarding faster and less stressful.

They also discuss communication preferences, with Kevin sharing that finding the right communication channel, such as Slack or text messages, can significantly improve efficiency. The early phase of working together is framed as an investment in future productivity.

THE ROLE OF INTERMEDIARIES AND SUPPORT
Matty contrasts working with an organization like Author Anchor versus hiring independently through platforms such as Fiverr or Upwork. Kevin explains that while authors work directly with their assistants on day-to-day tasks, an intermediary can provide support similar to HR. This includes addressing performance issues, handling disputes, and helping replace assistants if necessary.

Kevin clarifies that author assistants are real people, not AI, and that sourcing assistants from regions with a lower cost of living allows authors to pay reasonable rates without exploitation. He emphasizes that many assistants view this work as a career and bring valuable skills and experience to the role.

AI, AUTHOR ASSISTANTS, AND EFFICIENCY
AI plays a significant role in the conversation, particularly regarding how it intersects with author assistants. Kevin argues that authors should expect assistants to use AI tools where appropriate, as AI accelerates work and improves efficiency. He asks rhetorically, “Why wouldn’t you want them to use AI?” if it saves time and money.

They discuss the importance of setting clear boundaries, especially for authors who do not want their creative writing used to train AI systems. Kevin distinguishes between creative content and business materials such as transcripts or marketing copy, which many authors are comfortable processing with AI. Using AI in this way allows assistants to complete tasks faster, making the author’s investment more effective.

RETURN ON INVESTMENT AND BUSINESS THINKING
The conversation repeatedly returns to ROI. Kevin emphasizes that authors should not ask whether they can afford an author assistant, but whether an assistant can help increase revenue. He frames authors as small business owners who hire help to expand capacity, not as individuals looking for cost savings.

Kevin explains that any task preventing an author from writing or generating income is a candidate for delegation. He suggests that authors should aim to earn more than they spend on assistance, even if the margin is small at first. Over time, as systems improve and assistants become more effective, the ROI should increase.

They also discuss non-monetary ROI, such as reduced stress and peace of mind. Matty shares an example of hiring help with finances, noting that accuracy and reliability alone justified the expense. Kevin compares this to paying someone to mow a lawn, not because it generates income directly, but because it removes stress and preserves energy for more valuable work.

REDEFINING AUTHORSHIP AND FINAL TAKEAWAYS
Toward the end of the episode, Kevin challenges traditional ideas about authorship by sharing an example of a nonfiction author who uses an assistant to help draft books through recorded interviews and transcripts. He argues that authorship is about ideas and authority, not necessarily typing every word. Matty agrees that this broader view allows authors to focus on their strengths while still producing meaningful work.

The episode concludes with a shared perspective that author assistants can support nearly every aspect of an author’s business except the creative core, unless the author chooses otherwise. By delegating strategically, documenting processes, and evaluating ROI honestly, authors can build scalable systems that support both productivity and long-term growth.

Episode 317 - Insights From My Podcast Sabbatical with Matty Dalrymple

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Matty Dalrymple discusses INSIGHTS FROM MY PODCAST SABBATICAL, including how a podcast sabbatical sparked a strategic reset for her indie author business, reshaped her approach to direct sales and discoverability, informed new platform decisions, refined her consulting model, and led to building authority beyond books—offering practical insights for indie authors, nonfiction writers, and creators navigating publishing strategy, content repurposing, and second-act careers.

Looking for more information about my new From Expertise to Authority focus?

Subscribe to From Expertise to Authority on Substack.

Listen to the From Expertise to Authority podcast on all major podcast platforms, including Apple, Spotify, and Pocketcasts.

Check out my YouTube channel.

In many of my articles and podcast episodes, I suggest you capture your thoughts about your own journey from expertise to authority, and I’ve created a worksheet you can use to do that—download it here.

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to The Indy Author Podcast! Today my guest is, once again, me! : )

When I wrapped up the last episode before I took my December podcast sabbatical, I had planned to start out 2026 with a fantastic interview with Laura Goode about THE IMPORTANCE OF SELF-ADVOCACY, but so much happened in December that I decided to do one more solo episode to report back, and then return to regularly scheduled interview programming next week.

You’ll find video of this episode on The Indy Author on YouTube and a full transcript at TheIndyAuthor.com/Podcast.

Before we dive into my update, I’d like to send out a big thank you to my Patreon patrons, including Hsin-Yi and Heather, who became patrons in December of 2025! And I’d also like to thank Heather and Jeff, who each sent me 3 coffees via Buy Me a Coffee! It’s listeners like them—and you—who make this content possible.

Having some time set aside for something different than my usual routine was so helpful, and here are some of the things I accomplished in December ...

First, I made some changes to my “direct sales” approach by taking my Ann Kinnear Suspense Shorts ebooks and audio off PayHip in favor of Curios. I had two reasons for doing this.

First, whenever I made a sale on PayHip, my business manager, Melanie, who handles all the finances for William Kingsfield Publishers,  would have to reconcile the multiple resulting transactions that came into QuickBooks, and the time it took her to do this often cost more than I made from the sale. On Curios, as with other third-party retail platforms, the royalties come in in chunks, which is much easier from a bookkeeping point of view.

Second, I was getting tired of contending with the fact that the only “discoverability” I was ever going to get was by sending people there—pretty much exclusively people who already knew about me or my books—and I wanted to focus on a platform like Curios where someone who was browsing for suspense or thriller or mystery might find my books. And I’ll have more to say about the benefits of discoverability on third-party platforms in a bit!

Just as an FYI, I know that explaining to buyers about the platform fee that enables Curios to pay creators 100% of the list price is a little awkward, and I’m lobbying them to provide a feature that would enable creators to cover the platform cost so that the cost to the buyer would be the same across all retail platforms, while, I believe, still resulting in a higher royalty on Curios. I’ll keep you apprised of my progress on that front.

Back to PayHip—in addition to moving the short story ebooks and audio off PayHip, I also took down my large print novels because I didn’t want to have to maintain inventory to cover the few copies I sold. I’m happy to suggest that readers buy these books Bookshop.org, where a percentage of each sale goes to support indie bookstores.

I’m still thinking of completely retiring my PayHip store in favor of Curios for ebooks and audio and directing readers to Bookshop.org for all print, maybe with the offer that if they send me a photo of them with one of my print books, I’ll send them a signed book plate. Let me know what you think about that idea.

The other thing I need to accommodate is that one of the benefits I offer to Patreon patrons and newsletter subscribers is 20% off purchases on my PayHip store, and at the moment at least, that’s not an option on Curios—although I will lobby for them to add it!—so I’m looking for another benefit I can offer those folks. Ideas always welcome!

On the consulting front ...

Last year my consulting rates were $175 for the first one-hour meeting and $125 for subsequent one-hour meetings, and in the last podcast episode, I announced that those rates would be going up to $195 for the first one-hour meeting and $145 for subsequent meetings. I had originally priced the meetings differently because I anticipated I would be spending more prep time on the first meeting—reviewing the material the client had sent me, checking out their books, their website, their social media presences, and so on.

However, I found that even after the first meeting, I generally had prep to do for subsequent meetings, so pricing them differently didn’t really make much sense. And since I had already announced $145 as the “subsequent meeting” rate in the last episode, I didn’t want to set the hourly rate higher than that, so all consulting meetings are now $145, with no premium charge  for the first meeting!

What else did I have planned for December?

Originally, I intended to spend most of my “spare” time in December trying to get Lizzy Ballard Book 6 ready for advance readers, and I got a bit sidetracked on another project—more on that in a moment—so I didn’t get as far as I had hoped, but I’m pretty close. The book is about 90 thousand words with about 90 chapters—I prefer short chapters when the story is moving among several point-of-view characters, as is the case in the Lizzy books—and as of the time I’m recording this, on January 4, I’ve completed the pre-advance reader polish edit on twenty chapters, and I’m still pushing hard to have the book reader-ready before I leave for vacation on January 9.

I also finally launched my long-anticipated (by me) collection of Ann Kinnear Suspense Shorts: A YEAR OF KINNEAR: 12 SUSPENSE SHORTS FROM THE WORLD OF ANN KINNEAR, which is now available on all major online retail platforms in ebook and print.

I slightly underestimated the time I would need to spend on the launch of the collection, but what I didn’t factor in at all is that since I had added an illustration and an author’s note for each of the stories in the collection, all twelve standalone shorts would have to be updated with that extra content on all the retail and distribution outlets, so that’s taking quite a bit of time.

And here I’m going to take a moment to thank the wonderful Angelique Fawns for taking on a task that she didn’t anticipate for her holiday season: writing the foreword for the connection. Thank you, Angelique!

So in addition to a lot of unanticipated Vellum updating and content uploading, what did I spend my time in December on?

I launched a whole new platform: From Expertise to Authority! This my first offering that is targeted beyond a writer-specific audience, although I believe it will be valuable to many writers, especially of nonfiction. The purpose of this new platform is to ...

help experienced professionals exploring second act careers or sidelines transform their expertise into recognized authority through a proven three-stage framework of relationship-building. That framework involves Expertise-Based Relationships (which involves building credibility through written content), Personality-Based Relationships (which involves building deeper human connections through conversational content), and Authority-Based Relationships (which involves building recognized authority through direct engagement). And the goal of this framework is to enable these experienced professionals to generate income, expand their influence, or stay meaningfully engaged in their field.

In December I rolled out a bunch of new channels and content in support of From Expertise to Authority: an addition to my website, which you’ll find at TheIndyAuthor.com/Authority ... a revamped Matty Dalrymple YouTube channel focused specifically on the From Expertise to Authority content ... a consulting offering ... a new podcast: From Expertise to Authority ... and a Substack at Matty Dalrymple. I’m actually hosting the podcast through Substack, and I’d like to send out another big thank you to Angelique, who was one of my first From Expertise to Authority podcast guests and who clued me in to the ability to host the podcast through Substack.

I chose Substack over my own website for my written content for the same reason I’m prioritizing Curios over PayHip for my “direct” product sales: because of the benefits of discoverability. It someone is looking for content related to professional development or career transition or second act career or setting yourself up for success for a sideline or sidehustle, they’re more likely to find me on Substack than on my own website. (And before starting to post to Substack, I confirmed that Substack claims no rights to posters’ IP.)

Another reason for my experiment with Substack is that when I have spoken with writer audiences about sharing nonfiction content, I always got questions about Substack and was only able to address them with second-hand information, which is never my preference, so I figured I should really try it out for myself. Honestly, I dipped my toe in Substack a bit unenthusiastically, because I really wasn’t excited about taking on the care and feeding of another platform, but I’m really enjoying it—it’s social media for thinking people, providing the outreach that social media originally promised, but allowing for much more depth ... and actual (and productive) interactions.

The episodes of the From Expertise to Authority podcast will be a combination of solo episodes and interviews with professionals who have made that journey. When those guests are writers, I’ll share those episodes here on The Indy Author Podcast, and in a future episode of The Indy Author Podcast, I’ll share my repurposing strategy across the podcast, Substack, presentations, and an upcoming book. I really couldn’t launch a whole new platform without a heavy focus on repurposing.

As I mentioned, I believe that what I’m doing over at From Expertise to Authority, while not specific to writers, will be a benefit to writers—especially nonfiction writers moving from a first or main career to a second act or sideline career. And I thought that the best way to share with you what I’ll be doing over at From Expertise to Authority is to share my first podcast episode with you here. These episodes are bite-sized—this one is about seven-and-a-half minutes long, and if you prefer it in text form, it’s a quick read on Substack at Matty Dalrymple.

Next week on The Indy Author Podcast, we’ll resume our regular interview format with a conversation with Laura Goode about THE IMPORTANCE OF SELF-ADVOCACY, and that’s an episode you won’t want to miss. Laura is a writer with an MFA from Columbia University, a poet, a film producer, a writer of nonfiction that has appeared in BuzzFeed, New Republic, New York Magazine, and elsewhere, and she teaches at Stanford University, where she was honored with the 2025 Walter J. Gores Award, Stanford's highest award for excellence in teaching. She was recommended to me as a guest by the wonderful Jeff Elkins, the Dialogue Doctor, and his recommendations are always top-notch. I’m looking forward to relistening to that conversation, and I know you’ll enjoy it as well.

If you’d like to revisit any of the information I’ve shared in this episode, a full transcript—not just a summary—is available at theindyauthor.com.

And now, the first, fast episode of the From Expertise to Authority podcast: How Real-World Needs Shaped a Universal Framework.

Read the article on which the first episode of the From Expertise to Authority podcast was based here.

Episode 305 - Writing for Passion, Not Platforms with John Gaspard

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John Gaspard discusses WRITING FOR PASSION, NOT PLATFORMS, including why he chose to write a passion project instead of a market-driven book, how research into HAROLD AND MAUDE AT THE WESTGATE THEATER  turned into a richly visual history, what indie authors can learn about marketing from a cult film’s unlikely success, and why creating the book only you can write may be the most rewarding path of all.

John is author of the Eli Marks mystery series and the Como Lake Players mystery series. He also has several other stand-alone novels, including “The Greyhound of the Baskervilles,” “A Christmas Carl,” “The Sword & Mr. Stone” and “The Ripperologists.” He hosts "Behind the Page: The Eli Marks Podcast." In real life, John's not a magician, but he has directed six low-budget features that cost very little and made even less - that's no small trick. He's also written multiple books on the subject of low-budget filmmaking. Ironically, those books made more than the films. John lives in Minnesota and shares his home with his lovely wife, several greyhounds, a few cats and a handful of pet allergies.

Episode Links

https://www.elimarksmysteries.com

https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com

https://www.youtube.com/@behindthepagetheelimarkspo5241

John’s previous episodes:

Episode 180 - The Top 6 Lessons Novelists Can Learn from Movies with John Gaspard

​Episode 145 - Speech to Text and Back Again with John Gaspard

Episode 128 - Lessons from Filmmaking for the Indy Author with John Gaspard

Referenced in the interview:

https://www.designforwriters.com/

Companion episodes:

Episode 171 - Outside-the-Box Content: The Story behind "The Canadian Mounted" with Mark Leslie Lefebvre

Summary

In this episode of The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with John Gaspard about writing passion projects, turning research into a compelling book, and the lessons indie authors can take from the unlikely cult status of the film Harold and Maude. Their discussion covers topics ranging from the history of the Westgate Theater in Minneapolis, to the process of gathering and licensing visual material, to the importance of creating a book that delights the author first, regardless of market trends.

HOMETOWN ROOTS AND CULT STATUS
John shares how his personal connection to Harold and Maude began as a teenager in Minneapolis, where the film played for two years straight at the Westgate Theater between 1972 and 1974. While the film initially failed upon release due to poor marketing and being used as a stand-in when The Godfather was delayed, it found new life at the Westgate. A local columnist encouraged people to attend, and the theater’s reputation for showing offbeat comedies helped build momentum. “It was a perfect confluence of an odd movie in a theater that was known for odd movies,” John explains. The consistent audience support in Minneapolis contributed directly to the film’s eventual cult classic status, later replicated in cities like Detroit, Toronto, and Paris.

LESSONS FOR INDIE AUTHORS
Matty draws a clear parallel between the film industry and the publishing industry. Just as Paramount executives admitted they had “a great movie and were the wrong company to market it,” traditional publishers may not know how to market books that don’t fit their established formulas. John agrees, noting that understanding who your audience is and how to reach them is crucial for indie authors. This story illustrates how sometimes the mismatch between product and marketing channel—not the quality of the work itself—determines early success.

CHOOSING TO WRITE THE BOOK ONLY YOU CAN WRITE
John describes how his brother encouraged him to write a book about Harold and Maude after seeing how much knowledge and personal experience he had with the film. Instead of attempting a broad history of the movie, John focused on the two-year run at the Westgate Theater and its impact on the film’s cult status. This became his book Held Over: Harold and Maude at the Westgate Theater. He emphasizes that he always writes for himself first: “I could think of three people who would want to read this book—me, the assistant manager of the theater, and the granddaughter of the man who built it.”

John acknowledges that not every project is market-driven. He pursued this one because it was the book he wanted to see in the world. “If you love it, there’s going to be an audience for it somewhere,” he says, encouraging other indie authors to consider projects that may not have broad commercial appeal but hold deep personal meaning.

THE RESEARCH PROCESS
Much of the episode details John’s research approach. He visited historical societies, examined old newspapers, tracked down architectural blueprints, and connected with descendants of the theater’s founder. For instance, he discovered that the Westgate Theater was originally built in 1935 by a violinist-turned-insurance agent who wanted a venue that could host both films and live music. Though the founder died within a year, the theater survived for decades, eventually playing a crucial role in the cult status of Harold and Maude.

John also explored the history of the film itself, piecing together its production challenges and its uneven reception. He notes that many of the sources came from painstaking reviews of newspaper archives and interviews. “Every question I had, for the most part, I was able to find answers to if you’re willing to sit down and go through newspapers.com and read every year what’s going on with the word Westgate.”

VISUAL ELEMENTS AND BOOK DESIGN
John wanted his book to be as visually engaging as it was textually rich. He included photos, movie posters, and original ads. He also drew on personal material, including Super 8 footage he shot at the two-year anniversary event when actors Ruth Gordon and Bud Cort visited the theater.

To produce the book, he worked with the UK-based design firm Design for Writers, who had already created covers for his Eli Marks mystery series. They handled the interior design of the 160-page, full-color book. John provided notes on where each image should be placed, and the designer handled layout and captions. He was surprised at the affordability of the project—under $2,000 for design, with another $3,000 spent on licensing images.

COPYRIGHT AND LICENSING CONSIDERATIONS
John consulted a copyright attorney early in the process. Her advice was clear: license any photo where rights are available. For photos without clear ownership, fair use can apply if the image is transformed, for example by adding captions that provide historical context.

He also addressed the use of vintage newspaper ads, many from companies and publications that no longer exist. Licensing costs varied widely, but John noted that some of the most valuable material came from the Minnesota Historical Society, which provided images for as little as $25 each.

MARKETING AND OUTREACH
John acknowledges that promotion for such a niche book is limited. He has already connected with Harold and Maude fan groups on Facebook and local history groups in Minneapolis. He has arranged to appear at local theaters when they screen Harold and Maude, where he can talk about the book and sell copies. Bookstores in the Twin Cities remain a natural outlet, given the strong local connection.

Beyond that, John admits he does not plan to launch an extensive marketing campaign. However, Matty encourages him to consider broader historical and cultural angles—such as writing about Depression-era theaters or mid-century film culture—as potential pathways to reach audiences beyond Harold and Maude fans.

QUOTES THAT CAPTURE THE MESSAGE
Several comments from John summarize the key takeaways for indie authors:

·       “This is a book of a lifetime. I may never see that money again, but it’s something I’ve learned over the last 50 years how to do, and now I can do it.”

·       “Anything that you can license, license it. If someone is proclaiming they have the rights to it, get it from them.”

·       “If you love it, there’s going to be an audience for it somewhere.”

These remarks underscore the combination of practicality and passion required to take on a niche project.

THE INDIE AUTHOR MESSAGE
The broader message for indie authors is that sometimes the most rewarding projects are those that speak to your personal interests rather than market demand. While John had no illusions about the potential audience size for his book, he found joy in the research, the writing, and the finished product. He reminds listeners that indie publishing allows for such freedom: “Why else are we indie writers and publishers unless we can make the books we love?”

CONCLUSION
This episode highlights the importance of creative independence, careful research, and thoughtful design. John’s journey with Held Over: Harold and Maude at the Westgate Theater demonstrates how indie authors can take a deeply personal project and turn it into a polished, professional publication. Along the way, he offers practical lessons about marketing missteps, licensing rights, and budgeting for a passion project.

The key lesson for indie authors is clear: while writing to market has its place, there is lasting value in creating the book only you can write. Whether or not such a book finds a wide audience, the process itself can be deeply rewarding, and in the current publishing landscape, it is more possible than ever to bring these projects to life.

Episode 304 - From Beta Readers to Better Story with Michael La Ronn

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Michael La Ronn discusses FROM BETA READERS TO BETTER STORY, including how authors can use alpha readers, beta readers, and ARC teams to strengthen their manuscripts and connect with their audience. We discuss when to bring in beta readers, how to choose the right people, and the differences between feedback from writers versus readers. Michael also shares strategies for paying beta readers, managing volunteer feedback, and using early input to improve both your story and your marketing.

Michael La Ronn has published many science fiction & fantasy books and self-help books for writers. He built a writing career publishing many books per year while raising a family, working a full-time job, and even attending law school classes in the evenings.

Episode Links

https://www.authorlevelup.com

https://www.youtube.com/authorlevelup

Summary

In this episode of The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Michael La Ronn about how authors can use beta readers, along with alpha readers and ARC (advance review copy) readers, to strengthen their manuscripts and publishing process. The conversation explores practical definitions, timelines, strategies for recruiting and managing feedback, and the differences between free and paid beta readers. It also addresses how authors can apply beta reader insights not only to improve craft but also to test market assumptions and strengthen their self-publishing efforts.

Definitions: Alpha, Beta, and ARC Readers

Michael begins by defining terms that are often used interchangeably but mean different things. An alpha reader is usually the first person who sees a manuscript in its raw, unedited form. This might be a spouse or a trusted colleague. The goal is less about line-by-line analysis and more about a “vibe check”—does the story resonate, does the opening work, do the characters feel authentic? By contrast, a beta reader reviews a manuscript that is complete but not yet edited. Beta readers are typically more distant from the author than an alpha reader and are ideally people who read widely in the genre. They provide feedback on story elements, pacing, worldbuilding, and character development. Finally, ARC readers see a nearly finished book, often as part of a launch team, and their primary role is to leave reviews rather than provide substantive critique.

When to Use Beta Readers

When discussing when to use beta readers, Michael emphasizes that he does not use them for every book. Having written more than a hundred titles, he finds it impractical to recruit beta readers for each project. Instead, he relies on them when starting a new pen name, entering a new genre, or launching a new series. For example, he is currently writing a romantic fantasy novel and wants to ensure the romance elements meet reader expectations. “If you happen to be writing in a genre that you’re not super well versed in, then I think beta readers also make a lot of sense because they can help you fill in those blind spots,” he explains.

Scheduling and Timing

Timing is a critical factor. Michael recommends giving volunteer beta readers two to three weeks to read a full-length manuscript but telling them the deadline is shorter, such as two weeks, to account for delays. “You never tell them exactly how much time you need,” he says. “You give them a little bit less, and that will just help make everything smoother.” If hiring paid beta readers, he expects a faster turnaround since compensation justifies a tighter deadline.

Incorporating Feedback

The discussion then turns to how long authors should set aside for incorporating feedback. Michael outlines a range from a couple of days, if changes are minor, to a couple of weeks in a worst-case scenario where feedback points to major structural issues. Importantly, he stresses that feedback should be weighed collectively. “I typically am only going to change something that all of the beta readers or the majority of them point out,” he says. If only one reader objects to a character or scene, that is less compelling than if several raise the same concern.

Finding the Right Beta Readers

Finding the right beta readers is one of the biggest challenges for authors. Michael advises against recruiting people who don’t normally read in the genre. A reader of science fiction, for example, will not provide useful input on a cozy mystery. Even within a genre, it is important to drill down into subgenres. A reader who enjoys contemporary romance may not fully appreciate the conventions of romantic fantasy. He suggests starting with one’s own reader community, such as newsletter subscribers, but also recommends exploring communities on Goodreads and Reddit. Many of these groups have clear rules for how to post requests for beta readers. Michael reports success recruiting seven volunteers on Reddit within 24 hours.

Paid Beta Readers

For authors who prefer to pay beta readers, platforms like Upwork and Reedsy can be useful. However, there are pitfalls, including applicants who are not truly experienced in the genre. To screen candidates, Michael suggests asking questions such as “What are your favorite books in the genre and why?” Answers that list only obvious titles like Harry Potter or Game of Thrones suggest a superficial knowledge, whereas references to less mainstream works indicate deeper engagement. The ability to articulate why they enjoy certain books is also a positive sign, as it suggests they can provide useful feedback rather than vague impressions.

Writers vs. Readers as Beta Readers

Matty raises the question of whether writers themselves make good beta readers. Michael generally avoids them. “I’m not writing for writers, I’m writing for readers,” he explains. Writers may admire language or technique, but if the work doesn’t connect with actual readers, it fails its purpose. While he acknowledges there may be rare situations where feedback from a writer is useful, he emphasizes that the primary audience for beta reading should be readers.

Costs and Compensation

On the subject of compensation, Michael recommends researching current projects on platforms like Upwork to gauge market rates. Importantly, he notes that beta readers should be paid less than copy editors, since the scope of work is narrower. If authors are only seeking feedback on a portion of a manuscript, they should adjust compensation accordingly.

Deliverables and Feedback Formats

Expectations around deliverables can vary. Some beta readers prefer to provide feedback in a Google Doc, others with track changes in Word, and others via a written report. Michael encourages flexibility: “Let them work in the way that works best for them, because when they’re engaged, you’re more likely to get better feedback.”

How Many Beta Readers to Recruit

As for numbers, he recommends a minimum of three beta readers but cautions against more than five to seven. Too few risks missing major issues, while too many can lead to “editing by committee.” He also warns that not all volunteers will follow through, so it is wise to recruit more than needed. For example, when he sought seven, he received feedback from four, which he considered a good outcome.

Do Established Authors Still Need Beta Readers?

The conversation shifts to whether established authors who already understand their genre still need beta readers. Michael believes they are most useful when addressing specific weaknesses rather than as a matter of course. “The purpose of beta readers is to help you where you’re weak,” he says. Matty counters that even experienced authors can benefit from another perspective, especially when it comes to issues like character motivation, which may be clear in the author’s mind but not sufficiently conveyed on the page. Both agree that beta readers can be helpful as a final check before a book reaches a wider audience.

Using Beta Readers for Market Testing

The role of beta readers is not limited to manuscript development. They can also be used to market test book descriptions and covers. Michael writes his book descriptions early and shares them with beta readers to see if they spark interest. Similarly, he seeks feedback on cover concepts to ensure they meet market expectations. This input can prevent costly missteps and strengthen book launches.

Subject Matter Experts as Beta Readers

Beta readers can also serve as subject matter experts. Michael gives the example of his Chicago Rat Shifter series, where he wanted input from people familiar with Chicago’s neighborhoods and public transit, as well as from those with expertise in rodent behavior. He found readers who had both the genre interest and the subject knowledge, resulting in highly valuable feedback. One particularly enthusiastic volunteer even offered to bike around Chicago taking photos and videos of key locations to share with him.

Maintaining Relationships with Beta Readers

Maintaining relationships with beta readers after the project is another consideration. Michael suggests asking whether they want to be credited in the acknowledgments. In his experience, most science fiction and fantasy readers are happy to be named, while romance readers were more reluctant, possibly due to sensitivities about male authors in the genre. Respecting preferences and following up when the book is released can turn beta readers into enthusiastic champions of the work.

Balancing Feedback with Artistic Vision

Throughout the conversation, both Michael and Matty emphasize that beta reader feedback is ultimately just one form of input. Authors must balance openness to constructive criticism with protecting their creative vision. As Michael notes, “Just because a beta reader says you should do this or that doesn’t mean you should do it.” Overreliance on beta readers—or even developmental editors—can lead to uncertainty and compromise, whereas standing firm on artistic choices can produce more distinctive work.

Conclusion

The episode closes with the recognition that while beta readers can be invaluable, especially in unfamiliar genres or for market testing, they are not mandatory for every project. Authors should think strategically about when and why to use them, select readers carefully, and integrate feedback thoughtfully. In the end, the author must decide which changes serve the story and which do not.

By defining roles clearly, managing expectations, and targeting feedback strategically, authors can use beta readers not only to improve manuscripts but also to enhance book marketing and connect with their audience more effectively.

Episode 300 - Lessons from a Changing Publishing Landscape with Mark Leslie Lefebvre

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Mark Leslie Lefebvre discusses LESSONS FROM A CHANGING PUBLISHING LANDSCAPE, including trends in book design and special editions, shifts in production and distribution, Bookshop.org’s expansion into eBooks, strategies for direct sales and backlist marketing, and how increases in costs of print book production merit increases in prices as well. We also discuss the innovations we hope to see in the next two years.

Mark Leslie Lefebvre is the author of more than twenty books that include fiction and thrillers, and paranormal non-fiction explorations. He has also edited numerous anthologies. With three decades of experience in bookselling and publishing, Mark is a seasoned and trusted book industry professional who embraces both traditional and indie publishing options.

Episode Links

https://markleslie.ca/

https://books2read.com/playbook

Summary

In this episode of The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Mark Leslie Lefebvre about changes in the indie publishing landscape since August 2023, drawing on the framework of the Alliance of Independent Authors’ processes of publishing: design, production, distribution, marketing, and promotion. The conversation also looks ahead to what they would like to see in the next two years.

The discussion begins with design, both interior and exterior. Mark notes a growing trend toward creating special editions with features such as colored or patterned page edges. Advances in print-on-demand (POD) technology from companies like IngramSpark, Lightning Source, and others now allow indie authors to produce unique, visually striking books without large print runs. This reflects a return to appreciating the physical book as an art object. Matty observes that far from replacing print, eBooks have spurred indie authors to enhance the print experience for readers who value physical books. She links this to the concept of the “artisan author,” a term popularized by Johnny B. Truant, which represents a shift from rapid publishing toward crafting distinctive, high-quality products.

In production, Mark highlights the cyclical nature of trends such as serialization, recalling earlier experiments with serialized fiction and Amazon’s Kindle Vella. While platforms may lose interest in such formats, indie authors often find ways to adapt the ideas for their own purposes. Matty notes that Amazon once promoted short fiction in a way that made it easy for readers to find content tailored to their available reading time, though that functionality is now harder to find. Both agree that indie authors can pivot more quickly than traditional publishers to test new formats and capitalize on shifting reader behaviors.

When discussing distribution, Mark shares inside information about bookshop.org’s expansion into eBooks. He signed the Draft2Digital agreement with them in September 2023, though indie eBooks have yet to go live on the platform. The eventual rollout will allow authors to sell eBooks while directing a portion of proceeds to independent bookstores. Matty points out that for authors who prioritize relationship building and marketing over maximum royalties, bookshop.org could be a compelling alternative or supplement to direct sales platforms like Payhip. Mark adds that authors can also create affiliate accounts with bookshop.org to earn commissions on any sales through their links, whether for their own books or others.

The conversation moves to marketing, which ALLi defines as ongoing foundational activities such as maintaining an email list and a website. Mark observes that Amazon has become more of a pay-to-play platform, making it harder to gain visibility without advertising. Many authors are redirecting their ad spending toward direct sales, often promoting high-value digital box sets that provide a better return on investment. He also notes the growth of Written Word Media’s “promo stacks,” which allow authors to schedule and manage multi-platform promotions from a single dashboard, saving time. Companies like BookFunnel are cited as examples of businesses that respond directly to indie author needs, developing tools to solve specific problems.

On promotion, defined as time-limited, campaign-based activities, Mark says more authors are targeting promotions to drive traffic to their own stores rather than retailer sites. Matty observes that BookBub Featured Deals now include many traditionally published backlist titles, often priced higher than in the past. This reflects traditional publishers adopting strategies indie authors have used for years, particularly the emphasis on backlist marketing. She has shifted from applying for Featured Deals, which have become more competitive and expensive, to running BookBub ads that allow her to target readers actively looking for books. Mark notes that larger publishers and high-earning indie authors with substantial ad budgets now compete in spaces that used to be dominated by smaller indie publishers.

The conversation touches on changes to Amazon’s print pricing policies. Amazon now requires print books to be priced at $9.99 or higher to qualify for the higher royalty rate, a move both see as a nudge to stop undervaluing print. Mark points out that printing costs—especially paper—have risen significantly in recent years, making it unsustainable to price print books too low. He emphasizes that print and eBook pricing strategies should differ, given the higher production costs for print.

Looking ahead, both Matty and Mark share innovations they would like to see. Matty would like to see the return of the Espresso Book Machine—an in-store POD system that could produce a paperback in about 15 minutes—allowing customers to order exactly the edition they want, potentially in different languages or with special features. Mark describes his own experience investing in the machine when managing a university bookstore, using it to produce custom textbooks and reduce costs for students. He sees potential for such technology in small-footprint retail locations like airport bookstores, where stock is limited but demand for a wide range of titles exists.

Matty also wishes for writing software better suited to co-authoring, noting the limitations of current tools like Google Docs, Word, or Scrivener for collaborative projects. Mark adds that he would like a universal payment-splitting system for co-authors, applicable across all sales platforms, to simplify royalty distribution. While some platforms like Draft2Digital and PublishDrive offer payment splitting, handling sales from multiple sources remains labor-intensive.

Mark envisions growth in customizable audiobooks, where listeners could choose different narrators or even celebrity voice models. Advances in AI voice technology, such as ElevenLabs, make it possible for authors to license their own voices for narration and earn micropayments each time they are used. He has already earned income from licensing his AI voice and sees potential for multi-cast productions with voices matched to how authors imagine their characters.

Throughout the conversation, certain themes recur: the importance of owning and nurturing an email list, the advantages indie authors have in adapting quickly to market changes, and the growing viability of direct-to-reader sales. Both Matty and Mark stress that while trends will come and go, foundational practices—such as controlling rights, maintaining direct reader relationships, and producing professional-quality books—remain critical to long-term success.

Notable quotes include:

·       On the enduring importance of email lists: “That was the top thing in 2013, and I think it is still one of those pieces of advice … that hasn’t changed since then.” (Matty)

·       On the shift toward high-quality print: “Print never died. It just had beautiful little digital babies.” (Mark)

·       On Amazon’s pricing changes: “Ironically, a lot of authors need Amazon to kick them in the head in order to change their behavior.” (Mark)

·       On direct sales: “If I’m going to spend money on a Facebook ad, I’m going to make it a digital box set… so the dollars I’m investing aren’t returning me 35 cents, they’re returning me $18.” (Mark)

The episode concludes with both expressing enthusiasm for reconvening for episode 400 to revisit what has changed. Whether it’s advances in POD technology, new tools for co-authoring, or innovative audiobook formats, the conversation underscores the dynamic nature of indie publishing and the opportunities available to authors who stay informed and adaptable.

Episode 297 - Print Strategies for Indies with David Wogahn

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David Wogahn discusses PRINT STRATEGIES FOR INDIES, including the pros and cons of using platforms like IngramSpark and KDP for print-on-demand services, sharing insights on costs, logistics, and strategies for maximizing print book sales. David highlights the technical challenges of producing high-quality print books and the dynamics of managing discounts and pricing. The conversation covers the complexities of print runs, hardcover editions, large print books, and the importance of aligning one's distribution strategy with specific goals and budget.

David Wogahn is the founder and president of AuthorImprints, which is a Partner Member of the Alliance of Independent Authors (ALLi), and has taught self-publishing classes for Writer's Digest University, Jane Friedman, ALLi, the Independent Book Publishers Association (IBPA), and the Santa Barbara Writers Conference, among other publishing professional organizations. David is the author of six books about self-publishing, including the Countdown to Book Launch® series. In 2012, he became the author of the first LinkedIn Learning course on the topic of self-publishing.

Episode Links

https://www.authorimprints.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/wogahn/

https://janefriedman.com/do-you-really-need-ingramspark/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KjPcw64Izg

Summary

In this episode of The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with David Wogahn about the intricacies of print publishing for indie authors, with a focus on the role of IngramSpark and other platforms like Amazon's KDP. They explore how these platforms fit into an author's broader print distribution strategy, considering factors like market reach, costs, and quality control.

Matty introduces David, highlighting his extensive experience in the self-publishing arena. David shares insights on IngramSpark's significance for authors looking to distribute their print books professionally. He outlines that IngramSpark and KDP are two dominant platforms in the market, noting that while KDP is tailored for Amazon sales, IngramSpark offers expanded distribution to brick-and-mortar stores and libraries, which is crucial for authors targeting broader physical retail channels.

David explains the complexities related to pricing print books, emphasizing that authors often need to weigh manufacturing costs against the discount required by retailers. For instance, authors must decide on offering wholesale discounts typically ranging from 40% to 55%, impacting potential profits. David suggests that during active marketing periods, such as a book tour, the higher discount might be necessary but should be reduced afterward to improve profitability.

The discussion also touches on the emotional and practical aspects of print books. Print copies often signify a milestone for authors who dream of seeing their work physically manifested. However, David cautions that relying solely on print can complicate distribution compared to eBooks, which are simpler and more cost-effective to manage.

Large print formats and hardcover editions are also considered. David discusses the potential appeal of large print to certain audiences but highlights the increased production cost and complexity. Hardcover editions often present quality control challenges in POD (Print on Demand), an aspect David describes as "consistently inconsistent." He suggests that hardcover might serve more as a collector's item or for promotional purposes rather than primary sales channels.

Matty and David further explore the nuances of POD quality. They agree that while IngramSpark might present more variability in print quality, KDP offers superior customer service when issues arise, making it easier to address quality disputes. One notable anecdote shared was how problematic prints could result in IngramSpark sending replacement dust jackets due to significant errors.

For those contemplating whether to do a print run instead of relying on POD, David advises careful consideration of projections for sales demand and event opportunities. A print run may be justified if an author is certain about sales volume, has specific requirements for book quality or content (like color printing that POD cannot accommodate), or needs to meet demands for a particular event.

In closing, David emphasizes the importance of aligning an author’s distribution strategy with their goals, budget, and specific book needs, using POD services flexibly and strategically. He concludes by reinforcing IngramSpark’s role, or similar platforms, as critical for any author aiming to reach bookstores and libraries—markets that do not typically purchase through Amazon.

This episode serves as an invaluable resource for indie authors navigating the complex landscape of print publishing, providing practical advice and strategies to optimize their print distribution approach effectively.

Episode 282 - Unlocking the Power of Book Reviews with Rossana Corniel

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Rossana Corniel discusses UNLOCKING THE POWER OF BOOK REVIEWS, including the importance of reviews in understanding reader expectations and forming effective marketing strategies. Rossana discusses the finding that research shows that reviews can significantly impact sales and reader trust; the importance of tailoring your book's cover and description to your target audience ; and the emotional challenge of dealing with low-star reviews. The conversation also touches upon practical strategies for gathering reviews, such as using platforms like BookSprout.
 
Rossana Corniel is a romantasy and paranormal romance author who believes in the magic of storytelling to inspire and connect. Writing under the pen name R.C. Luna, she has published six novels and a children’s book, with six more books slated for release in 2025. Drawing from her almost two decades of experience in marketing and communications, including her current role as Head of Marketing at Booksprout, Rossana blends creativity and strategy to help authors grow and thrive. When she’s not writing, she’s raising three incredible daughters and chasing the next great adventure.

Episode Links

https://www.facebook.com/authorrcluna
https://www.instagram.com/author_r.c.luna/
https://www.tiktok.com/@author_rcluna
https://www.instagram.com/booksprout/
https://www.facebook.com/booksprout
https://www.tiktok.com/@booksproutapp

Summary

Matty Dalrymple talks with Rossana Corniel about the pivotal role of reviews. Rossana emphasizes the significance of reviews in shaping marketing strategies and driving book sales, particularly spotlighting the importance of understanding and leveraging reader feedback.
 
To kick off the discussion, Matty highlights Rossana's diverse writing background, which includes publishing novels and a children's book. Rossana shares her belief in the power of storytelling and her commitment to helping fellow authors through her role at BookSprout. This episode predominantly revolves around how authors can maximize their marketing strategies through reader reviews.
 
Understanding Reader Expectations
 
Rossana underscores the impact of reviews on authors, noting how they influence purchasing decisions. She cites studies to stress that a positive review can significantly boost sales. The conversation delves into strategic marketing, where reviews build trust and can be as effective as personal recommendations. For authors starting their journey, she advises focusing on reviews of similar books by other authors as a learning tool to understand market trends and reader expectations, calling this approach savvy.
 
Reading and Responding to Reviews
 
The episode explores how authors can use feedback efficiently. Matty and Rossana discuss the emotional challenges authors face when handling negative reviews. Rossana shares her experience of turning critique into actionable changes, like adding trigger warnings when necessary. Authors are encouraged to pick trends from reviews rather than reacting to individual critiques. Matty supports this by advising authors not to act on single reviews but to seek patterns that indicate areas for improvement.
 
Engaging with Readers
 
As authors expand their work, Rossana suggests interacting with readers through thoughtful dialogue, encouraging feedback to fine-tune future narratives. Sharing how endorsements from known personalities can sometimes mean more than detailed book previews, the episode highlights how this strategy might differ based on the book's price and format.
 
Building a Review Strategy
 
The importance of reviews is further tied to promotional opportunities, with a focus on the difference between paid reviews and ethical platforms like BookSprout. The episode clarifies that platforms facilitating honest reviews are legal and beneficial for authors looking for credible market feedback. Rossana describes how BookSprout helps authors place their books before potential reviewers ethically by emphasizing the distinction between paying for a platform versus paying for reviews.
 
Navigating Free Reviews and Giveaways
 
Matty and Rossana also tackle authors' hesitance to give away their books in exchange for reviews, highlighting this as a crucial component of successful book marketing. They touch upon tools like newsletter swaps to encourage organic, honest feedback.
 
Tactics and Timing for Collecting Reviews
 
Further into the podcast, the discussion transitions into strategic timing for gathering reviews. Rossana explains the benefit of aligning book launches with review requests to capitalize on algorithms that affect visibility on platforms like Amazon. This tactical timing can offer added traction and elevate a book’s presence when paired with a strong launch strategy.
 
Building Long-term Engagement
 
Addressing strategies for long-term reviewer engagement, Matty and Rossana discuss communication with reviewers and how authors can engage without locking into counterproductive exchanges with critical reviewers. They recommend focusing on building meaningful connections through gratitude and professionalism.
 
Concluding the episode, Matty and Rossana reflect on the invaluable insights reviews offer in strengthening an author’s market position. With effective use of platforms like BookSprout, authors can not only understand reader preferences better but also significantly enhance their marketing strategy and reach.

Episode 279 - LinkedIn Strategies for Authors with Troy Lambert

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Troy Lambert discusses LINKEDIN STRATEGIES FOR AUTHORS, including the evolving role of LinkedIn for authors. We delve into strategies for optimizing LinkedIn profiles, engaging with peers, and understanding platform nuances to enhance professional presence, network effectively, and perhaps build a side hustle.
 
Troy Lambert is the author of over 32 novels and several works of non-fiction. He's also an editor, book coach, and educator. When not behind the keyboard, he lives, works, and plays in the mountains of Idaho.

Episode Links

https://troylambertwrites.com
https://www.youtube.com/@TroyLambertAuthor
https://www.linkedin.com/in/troy-lambert/

Summary

Matty Dalrymple talks with Troy Lambert on The Indie Author Podcast about the evolving role of LinkedIn for authors. They delve into strategies for optimizing LinkedIn profiles, engaging with peers, and understanding platform nuances to enhance professional presence, network effectively, and perhaps build a side hustle.
 
LinkedIn's Evolution as a Social Media Platform
 
Troy acknowledges the transformation of LinkedIn from a digital résumé repository to a dynamic social networking site. The platform lets professionals interact beyond traditional job-seeking purposes, offering a more social dimension to business interactions. Troy points out that while LinkedIn still maintains its professional tone, it now serves as a space for people to extend their professional networks, share information, and even make purchasing decisions or explore new opportunities through these connections.
 
Optimizing LinkedIn Profiles for Authors
 
Authors, whether focused on fiction or non-fiction, are encouraged to maintain updated LinkedIn profiles. Matty notes her pet peeve with outdated profile pictures and recognizes the importance of current and professional headshots on LinkedIn. Troy stresses that an up-to-date profile signals competency and readiness for new opportunities, whether seeking freelance work, establishing expertise, or attracting podcast invitations.
 
He advises authors to actively showcase their expertise by listing publications in the profile's designated section. This creates a professional image, crucial for attracting book readers, especially in non-fiction, where showcasing expertise is imperative for credibility. Troy also suggests curating your LinkedIn contacts to reflect a network that resonates with your current professional identity and goals.
 
Networking and Engaging on LinkedIn
 
The conversation pivots to discuss the ways authors can engage with and understand their LinkedIn audience. Troy discusses using the platform to connect with peers in the industry. Authors should identify others within their niche or those they admire, then actively engage with their posts to learn and share insights.
 
This engagement strategy should extend beyond making connections to include thoughtful interaction. Authors should craft posts and comments that inspire discussion and exhibit their expertise. Troy shares his own experiences, citing how his LinkedIn interactions led to unexpected opportunities, such as invitations to speak on podcasts or contribute to discussions on topics of shared interest.
 
LinkedIn for Book Marketing and Author Services
 
While LinkedIn may not be the most effective platform for direct book sales, it holds significant potential for marketing author services and other higher-value offerings. Matty discusses her consulting service and how LinkedIn can help her connect with individuals transitioning to new career phases, such as retirement, who might be interested in writing a book. Troy suggests focusing on professional discussions about publishing-related topics to establish expertise and potentially attract clients interested in author services like editing, coaching, or consulting.
 
Using LinkedIn Groups and Ads
 
Their discussion briefly touches on LinkedIn groups, with Troy recommending caution due to the high risk of spam. He advises being selective with group participation to ensure interactions remain valuable.
 
Regarding LinkedIn ads, Troy shares insights about their effectiveness, especially for promoting non-fiction books and author-related services. He contrasts LinkedIn ads with other platforms, highlighting that LinkedIn users often search for professional development, making the platform a worthwhile avenue for educational promotions. However, he advises caution in using LinkedIn ads for fiction, which tends not to yield significant returns.
 
Current and Future Plans on LinkedIn
 
Troy concludes by advocating for intentional curation of one’s LinkedIn network. He emphasizes removing outdated connections that no longer align with current professional goals. He aligns this strategy with a broader trend toward streamlining social media interactions to focus on targeted professional objectives.
 
Matty plans to focus her LinkedIn strategy by engaging deeply with a curated list of professionals within her consulting sphere. By zeroing in on a small number of key contacts, she hopes to better integrate into the professional conversations that matter most to her.
 
Conclusion
 
In this podcast episode, Matty Dalrymple and Troy Lambert provide valuable insights into using LinkedIn effectively as an author. Whether for professional networking, promoting non-fiction work, or offering author services, a well-optimized and actively managed LinkedIn profile can open up a wealth of opportunities for authors who engage thoughtfully with the platform.

Episode 278 - The Perks and Pitfalls of Facebook Ads with Malorie Cooper

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Malorie Cooper discusses THE PERKS AND PITFALLS OF FACEBOOK ADS, including the significance of high-contrast images and textual elements in ad creatives, the benefits and drawbacks of Facebook's automated targeting suggestions, and the latest updates in Facebook's targeting mechanisms that can affect ad performance. Mal emphasizes the need for authors to diversify their advertising efforts, touching on the importance of also experimenting with platforms like Amazon Ads and BookBub for broader marketing success.
 
Malorie Cooper has been teaching authors how to run Facebook ads for over 7 years. Nothing makes her day more than knowing what she does helps to elevate authors' careers.

Episode Links

www.thewritingwives.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/thewritingwives
https://www.youtube.com/@thewritingwives

Summary

Matty Dalrymple talks with Malorie Cooper about the intricacies of using Facebook ads as a promotional tool for authors. With extensive experience in teaching authors how to leverage Facebook ads, Malorie offers valuable insights into navigating this ever-evolving platform. The discussion covers the challenges and strategies associated with Facebook advertising, the importance of creative content, targeting, and how authors can diversify their advertising approach across multiple platforms.
 
Introduction to Facebook Ad Challenges
 
Matty kicks off the conversation by sharing personal challenges faced when running Facebook ads around 2020-2021. Malorie acknowledges these challenges due to frequent and sometimes significant changes Facebook makes to their ad platform. Such changes can disproportionately affect different genres or marketing strategies.
 
Malorie points out that Facebook has made several substantial changes annually, affecting some authors more than others. She mentions the impact of genre targeting and how certain techniques for targeting readers may have become less effective due to algorithm updates or changes in Facebook's ad delivery priorities.
 
Understanding Facebook's Algorithmic Changes
 
When discussing algorithmic changes, Malorie highlights that while Facebook occasionally releases information about upcoming changes, they rarely offer details sufficient for precise prediction of performance shifts. Authors often rely on self-assessment and anecdotal observation to gauge the effectiveness of their ads.
 
Matty and Malorie also explore the impact of legal requirements, such as changes following the iOS security updates and compliance with the FTC and COPPA laws, which influence how and where ads can be placed effectively.
 
Diversifying Advertising Efforts
 
Malorie advises authors against putting all advertising efforts into Facebook alone. She emphasizes that multi-platform strategies ensure visibility even if a significant platform change occurs. Facebook ads should be part of a broader promotional strategy that might include Amazon ads, BookBub ads, or other platforms like Pinterest and YouTube.
 
She suggests that while Facebook offers broad reach, its audience is not specifically looking for books, unlike Amazon and BookBub, where the audience is more inclined towards book purchasing. Thus, spread-out advertising efforts can hedge against platform-specific issues and ensure steady reader engagement.
 
Creating Effective Ad Creative
 
Effective ad creative is paramount, as Malorie outlines several best practices. She advises ensuring images are high contrast for visibility and legibility, even in grayscale, to check color contrast and accessibility for colorblind viewers. Text is now crucial in creative due to people's expectations from TikTok and reels, providing context promptly.
 
Additionally, she warns that Facebook's AI might ignore initial targeting instructions; hence, it's essential to visually and contextually signal the ad's purpose—such as including a book cover to confirm it’s an ad for a book.
 
Optimizing Targeting Techniques
 
Exploring targeting in more detail, Malorie discusses how Facebook's implementation of Advantage Plus Detailed Targeting can override manual selections, showing ads to unintended audiences.
 
Despite AI-assisted targeting, manual interest-based targeting tends to outperform Facebook's broader strategies. Malorie suggests testing broad targeting first and then narrowing it down to optimize ad performance.
 
Analysis and Realistic Expectations
 
Malorie highlights the importance of analyzing the performance of ads by using tools like Amazon attribution links, acknowledging that attribution data isn’t foolproof but offers a relative comparison. She gives practical metrics: aiming for at least ten pages read per click for KU books and one sale every 50 clicks for non-KU books.
 
For newcomers to Facebook ads, Malorie advises setting aside a budget and patience to allow for a learning curve that could span a few months, emphasizing the value of test-driven adjustments.
 
Conclusion: Broader Advertising Strategy and Commitment
 
In conclusion, while Facebook ads are not the easy wins they once were, they remain a critical component of a well-considered advertising strategy. Malorie encourages authors to bravely navigate the complexities of ad creative, targeting, and platform changes to drive their book marketing efforts effectively. Investing time and resources into such ad campaigns, with a willingness to adapt, can yield significant returns over time.

Episode 277 - Book Promotion and How to Break through the Noise with Leah Paulos

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Leah Paulos discusses BOOK PROMOTION AND HOW TO BREAK THROUGH THE NOISE, including the importance of early marketing planning, crafting concise and compelling pitches, and understanding the specific needs of different recipients. Leah also delves into leveraging email lists, using AI tools for crafting pitches, building relationships with influencers, and the long-tail approach to post-publication promotion. Leah provides practical tips for authors to maximize their promotional efforts and connect effectively with their target audience.
 
Leah Paulos is the Founder and Director of Publicity at Press Shop PR and Book Publicity School, and has worked at the intersection of books and media for over 25 years. Twice named a top PR firm by the Observer, Press Shop PR has worked on many notable books and #1 bestsellers including MARCH by Rep. John Lewis and ON TYRANNY by Timothy Snyder, as well as books by Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Neil deGrasse Tyson, James Kirchick, and Pulitzer-finalists Samuel Freedman and Louise Aronson. She lives in Brooklyn with her husband and two sons.

Episode Links

www.PressShopPR.com
www.BookPublicityScool.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/leahpaulos/
https://www.facebook.com/PressShopPR
https://x.com/PressShopPR

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Leah Paulos about effective strategies for authors to break through the noise in a saturated market. Leah, drawing from her extensive experience at Press Shop PR and Book Publicity School, provides valuable insights into how authors can effectively promote their books and connect with their target readers.
 
The conversation begins with Matty highlighting the many roles that indie authors have to play—not only are they the creative force behind their books, but they also need to manage publicity and marketing. Leah agrees, emphasizing how crucial it is for authors to start thinking about their promotion strategy early in the writing process. By keeping a document or spreadsheet of promotional ideas and contacts, authors can better position themselves when the time comes to market their book.
 
Leah stresses the importance of understanding one's audience and tailoring messages to fit different recipients, whether they are readers, media, or event coordinators. It's crucial to consider what the other party needs to know and how your approach should differ depending on who you are addressing. For example, the back cover copy of a book should capture a reader's interest and remain timeless, whereas a pitch to media should be timely, demonstrating the book's relevance to current discussions or trends.
 
A significant part of the conversation centers around the creation of effective pitch materials. According to Leah, every book campaign requires two key elements: a compelling pitch and an accurate recipient list. Authors need to craft pitches that are concise and snappy, avoiding excessive details and focusing on inviting the recipient to learn more. One of Leah's recommendations for pitch material is the "bar test," where authors think about how they would describe their book to someone in a noisy setting in just a few attention-grabbing words.
 
Matty and Leah also discuss building relationships with influencers and media. It's not about sending out mass emails but rather about connecting meaningfully with select individuals who can help promote your book. This involves engaging with them genuinely and understanding how your book might provide value to their audience.
 
They touch on the role of influencers in an author's promotional strategy. Leah advises that while influencer marketing can be highly effective, it is important for authors to engage with influencers who align well with their target audience. This involves participating actively in the community where these influencers operate and finding ways to offer value in the relationship.
 
The podcast episode ends with Leah suggesting several long-term strategies for book promotion. She emphasizes the importance of leveraging any media attention post-publication and using new information about reader reception to refine marketing strategies. Authors should remain adaptable, using feedback and reviews to tweak their pitches and focus on angles that resonate with their audience.
 
This episode of The Indy Author Podcast offers practical advice for authors navigating the complex world of book publicity. Whether you are just starting out or looking to boost an existing campaign, the insights shared by Matty and Leah provide a solid foundation for promoting books effectively in a crowded market.

Episode 276 - Navigating Legal Risk in Memoir with Kathryn Goldman

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Kathryn Goldman discusses NAVIGATING LEGAL RISK IN MEMOIR, including the delicate balance memoir writers must strike to avoid defamation, invasion of privacy, and intentional infliction of emotional distress. Kathryn explains the legal definitions and elements of these terms and offers advice on minimizing risk, emphasizing the importance of factual accuracy and distinguishing between statements of fact and opinion. We also discuss the complexities of protecting oneself when writing about identifiable real-life figures and the considerations authors must take into account when deciding whether to fictionalize elements of their stories. Finally, Kathryn touches on the implications of using real places and song lyrics in memoirs and cautions against seeking input from real-life subjects included in the memoir. She concludes with the potential benefits of including disclaimers to manage reader expectations and reduce legal exposure.
 
Kathryn Goldman is an intellectual property attorney who focuses her practice on the protection and enforcement of copyright and trademark rights for businesses and individuals. She represents creative professionals, writers, artists, photographers, and innovative entrepreneurs. Leaving 30 years in litigation behind her, Kathryn now focuses her work on keeping creatives out of court so they can create more work. Kathryn is also the Legal Advisor to the Alliance of Independent Authors.

Episode Links

Kathryn's Links:
https://creativelawcenter.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathryn-goldman-b9948211/
https://www.instagram.com/kathryngoldman/
https://creativelawcenter.com/register/memoir-how-to-minimize-risk/ (paid course)
 
Show Notes:
AI Update US Copyright Office Report on Copyrightability - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr_LnJgDTdU&t=1s

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Kathryn Goldman about legal considerations for memoir writers and authors of nonfiction and creative fiction. Kathryn, an intellectual property attorney specializing in intellectual property and copyright, offers practical advice for minimizing legal risks associated with defamation, invasion of privacy, and the intentional infliction of emotional distress.
 
Kathryn explains how the legal definitions of terms like defamation can differ from common understanding. Defamation, she notes, requires a false statement of fact about another person, made to a third party, with some element of fault, and resulting in damage. She emphasizes the importance of truth and opinion in mitigating defamation claims, suggesting that writers should stick to provable truths or clearly frame content as opinion.
 
Invasion of privacy involves scenarios where private information is shared without consent. Kathryn describes different types, including "false light" scenarios, and emphasizes the importance of protecting private information. She also discusses the concept of intentional infliction of emotional distress, where conduct aimed at causing distress must be extreme, outrageous, and result in severe distress.
 
The conversation highlights the challenges memoir writers face when sharing stories involving real people. Kathryn advises that, while you can control how you present your story, you can't control others' reactions or potential legal claims. Writers should be mindful of how they depict real individuals and consider fictionalizing names, places, and recognizable details. Her advice extends to understanding local laws, as legal matters vary by state and country.
 
Matty and Kathryn explore different motivations for writing memoirs, from personal therapy to social justice. Regardless of intent, Kathryn stresses the importance of careful planning and understanding the risks involved. She emphasizes that happy lives don't typically make for compelling memoirs, which often center around transformative challenges.
 
The discussion also touches on the importance of setting expectations with disclaimers, noting that disclaimers can help frame a memoir as fictionalized or subjective, thereby reducing legal risks. However, when claiming a creative embellishment, accuracy and factual presentation should not be compromised.
 
The episode further discusses fair use, particularly in relation to song lyrics and copyrights. Kathryn advises against using song lyrics without permission, citing the complex licensing infrastructure and the importance of respecting the original creator's work.
 
To conclude, Kathryn cautions writers to weigh the legal risks in memoir writing and discusses strategies for minimizing potential legal issues while preserving the authenticity and impact of their stories. By seeking counsel and carefully considering the implications of their narrative choices, memoirists can protect themselves legally while still sharing meaningful stories. For more resources, Kathryn directs listeners to CreativeLawCenter.com.
 
This episode of The Indy Author Podcast offers valuable insights for anyone considering writing a memoir, with practical advice on legal issues and thoughtful reflection on the personal motivations behind memoir writing.

Transcript

This transcript has been edited for readability; please keep in mind that only the audio or video recordings of the conversation will reflect the word-for-word content of the conversation.
 
[00:00:00] Matty: Hello, and welcome to The Indie Author Podcast. Today, my guest is Kathryn Goldman. Hey, Kathryn, how are you doing?
 
[00:00:07] Kathryn: I'm fine, Matty. How are you?
 
[00:00:09] Matty: I'm doing great, thank you. To give our listeners and viewers a little background on you, Kathryn Goldman is an intellectual property attorney who focuses her practice on protecting and enforcing copyright and trademark rights for businesses and individuals. She represents creative professionals, including writers, artists, photographers, and innovative entrepreneurs.
 
Leaving 30 years of litigation behind, Kathryn now focuses on keeping creatives out of court so they can produce more work. She is also the legal advisor for the Alliance of Independent Authors, which is how I met her. I invited Kathryn on the podcast to discuss how to minimize legal risk when writing memoir.
 
Kathryn, you sent me a note in preparation for our conversation, which I liked a lot. You wrote: "Memoir can involve a delicate walk through the minefields of defamation, invasion of privacy, and intentional infliction of emotional distress." We'll talk about how to navigate these treacherous areas of law so a writer can tell their truth while still protecting themselves.
 
[00:01:12] One question I had for you is: to what extent will the information you share be applicable to nonfiction beyond memoir, or is it quite specific to memoir?
 
[00:01:47] Kathryn: Oh, it can be generalized to nonfiction broadly. These legal considerations apply to all types of nonfiction writing. They also apply to fiction—especially historical fiction—when real individuals and events are incorporated into the story.
 
[00:02:09] Matty: Perfect. I thought a good way to start would be to clarify some of the terms we used—defamation, invasion of privacy, and intentional infliction of emotional distress. Sometimes, the legal definitions of these terms are more nuanced than general understanding.
 
Can you explain, for example, what defamation means?
 
[00:02:09] Kathryn: Okay, so there are two kinds of defamation: defamation in writing and spoken defamation. Spoken defamation is slander, but we’re not going to discuss slander because we’re talking about written work, which is libel.
 
The elements of defamation are as follows: libel is a false statement of fact about another person that you communicate to a third party, not just to that person. There also has to be some element of fault on the part of the person who writes or publishes the statement.
 
You either knew it was false or failed to check whether it was true before spreading it. Additionally, the person about whom the defamatory statement is made must suffer some form of damage.
 
Damage could include harm to reputation, lost business, or even physical illness caused by severe defamation. These are the necessary elements of defamation, and all four must be present before a claim can be made.
 
So that's defamation. Do you want to take them one at a time?
 
[00:03:41] Matty: Yeah, how about invasion of privacy? That was another topic we wanted to discuss.
 
[00:03:44] Kathryn: Okay, so invasion of privacy—think of it as intrusion upon seclusion. You are in a private space, like your bedroom, which is common in memoirs. You have an expectation of privacy, but someone—a peeping Tom, for example, or even someone you invite into that space—violates that privacy and then shares it with the world. That is an invasion of privacy. The public has no reason or right to know those private details.
 
There are other types of invasion of privacy. One is appropriating someone’s name or likeness, which we see a lot in the college sports world right now—NIL, or name, image, and likeness. That is a form of invasion of privacy.
 
Then there’s false light invasion of privacy. This happens when you depict someone in a way that casts them in a misleading light. For example, if you write that someone was in the middle of a bar brawl and imply that they started it or were involved when they weren’t, that would be false light.
 
So those are different types of invasion of privacy.
 
[00:05:25] Matty: And the last term we mentioned was intentional infliction of emotional distress.
 
[00:05:30] Kathryn: Right. Intentional infliction of emotional distress occurs when someone engages in extreme and outrageous conduct with the intent to cause another person distress. The conduct must be severe enough to cause significant emotional harm, and in some cases, the law requires a physical manifestation of distress.
 
For example, if someone intentionally lies about another person to cause them distress, that could be both defamation and intentional infliction of emotional distress.
 
One important point to remember is that all of these laws are state-based. This means the requirements for a claim vary from state to state and country to country. Some states or countries may not even recognize intentional infliction of emotional distress as a valid legal claim.
 
So, if you're concerned about this issue, you need to check your local laws and consult with a local attorney to determine whether it applies in your situation.
 
[00:07:11] Matty: I wanted to start with memoir because that’s an obvious example. Unless you’re writing about your time alone on a desert island, memoirs involve interactions with other people. They often pull writers in two directions: staying true to their experience while also being mindful of the legal risks you mentioned.
 
How do you advise memoir writers to avoid defamation claims when sharing stories about real people?
 
[00:07:49] Kathryn: The first thing to understand is that you cannot control how other people will react to your work. Even if you take every precaution to ensure you’re not defaming anyone, you cannot predict how they will interpret your writing or what actions they might take.
 
You can be as careful and reasonable as possible and still have a claim made against you. However, if you are prudent and take appropriate care, you will have a strong defense if a claim arises.
 
That said, when you’re concerned about defamation, remember that the first element of defamation is that it must be a false statement of fact.
 
If what you write is true and objectively provable, it cannot be defamation.
 
[00:08:50] Kathryn: The other thing you can do is frame your characterization of the situation, the person, or the event as an opinion. If you are expressing an opinion, you are not stating a fact.
 
For example, if you were to write a scene—memoir is often in the first person—you could say, It appeared to me as though she burned down that house on purpose. Or, When I look at that, it makes me think of… (using a simile or metaphor). You are framing the event as your opinion rather than a fact.
 
By doing that, you are building a defense against defamation. The primary defenses to defamation are truth—an objectively provable truth—or opinion. Those are two solid ways to prevent a defamation claim against you.
 
That said, right from the start, there’s also the option of fictionalizing the person. You can avoid identifying them by changing details—altering the town where events happen, modifying the setting, changing the person’s description, giving them a different occupation. You can alter these details entirely while still telling your story and conveying how that person made you feel and impacted your life—without identifying them.
 
That’s a decision you make before you even put pen to paper.
 
[00:11:22] Matty: Yeah, it seems like some memoirists are clear with their readers that they’re not reproducing interactions with particular people. For example, some memoirists I’ve spoken to say they combine multiple people into a single character—maybe they had two bad bosses and want to tell a story about dealing with a bad boss, so they merge those two into one. The reader understands they’re not going to find that named bad boss on LinkedIn or anything like that.
 
It seems really tricky. I was thinking about this in the context of creative nonfiction—when someone tells a story about a celebrity or a historical figure and puts words in that person’s mouth. For example, The Crown followed factual stories about Queen Elizabeth and her family but took great liberties with behind-the-scenes action and dialogue. That’s more of an exposé. Are there different legal approaches to those two types of works?
 
[00:12:43] Kathryn: Yes. When you're writing something like The Crown, there has to be a heavy legal vetting of the manuscript or script. That would involve applying U.K. law—so you’d have to analyze the U.K.'s defamation laws. Those are famous individuals, and the law in the U.S. is different for public figures compared to private individuals. It is much harder to defame a public figure than a private individual.
 
You need to analyze the manuscript and go through it to see what could potentially sustain a claim. But the legal elements will be the same for both memoir and historical fiction or creative nonfiction. Once you determine which law applies, the legal analysis will be the same.
 
[00:14:09] Matty: If someone is writing about people in their own life and comes to you for advice, how do you guide them on whether to name names or fictionalize details like names, places, or characteristics? Are there specific criteria you use to determine that?
 
[00:14:31] Kathryn: Well, you gave the example of a bad boss. That’s easy to fictionalize—you can change the company, job description, and other details. But if you’re writing about your abusive stepfather and using your real name as the author, that person is going to be identifiable. You can’t fictionalize that.
 
Then the question becomes—do you write under a pseudonym? If you are concerned that your stepfather might sue you and you write under a pseudonym, will you be able to talk about your book publicly? When writing a memoir, you must focus on your why. There are many reasons to write a memoir.
 
On my website, CreativeLawCenter.com, I have a workshop replay where I interviewed two memoirists. They discussed whether to identify themselves and, by extension, their family members or whether to use a pseudonym and the implications of that choice.
 
If your reason for writing is to share your story with others in similar situations and to speak freely about it, then you really can’t use a pseudonym. Some situations can’t be fictionalized. You have to decide at the outset what risks you are willing to take.
 
[00:16:47] Matty: That also made me think about another situation. Suppose someone writes about an abusive experience and wants to follow the book with public appearances to support others in similar situations. Legally, does it make a difference if they don’t name the bad actors in their book or talks, but those people could still be identified if someone did some research?
 
[00:17:24] Kathryn: If the person is identifiable in the book, that can lead to legal issues. Then you have to weigh whether that person—who hasn’t been named but is described and connected to the author—would want to out themselves by filing a lawsuit, which is a public record accessible to everyone. That lawsuit would essentially declare, I am the stepfather accused of this abuse, and I didn’t do it. Often, when claims like that are made, they draw more attention to the book and can drive book sales.
 
So you have to assess: will this person take legal action if they haven’t been openly named? That depends on your knowledge of the person, their risk tolerance for exposure, and your own risk tolerance for facing a legal claim. All of these factors go into the calculation of how to approach memoir writing.
 
[00:19:09] Matty: It seems like so much of this comes back to the underlying motivation for writing the book. Most of the time when I talk to writers, their motivations are positive—they have a story they need to tell, they want to share their experience, or they have advice that could help people. But in some cases, there’s a less admirable motivation—wanting to pay someone back for something. If revenge is the driver, the normal publishing and writing considerations may not apply.
 
[00:19:54] Kathryn: That’s an interesting point. Revenge. I’ve worked with many memoirists and reviewed many manuscripts for legal clearance, and I can safely say that none of them have admitted to revenge as their motivation. Most say they want to expose an unjust situation so that others in similar circumstances know they’re not alone. Or they want to share mistakes they’ve made so others don’t repeat them. That said, revenge-driven memoirs do exist.
 
This brings up another reason many people write memoirs: personal therapy. And sometimes, that means a memoir shouldn’t be published. Memoirs about happy lives are not usually that interesting. The most compelling memoirs involve transformation—something tragic or life-changing happens, and the person emerges changed. So when writing a memoir, you must ask: Why am I writing this? What is my goal? If the motivation is therapeutic, maybe the memoir is best kept private.
 
[00:22:39] Matty: Yeah, I've spoken to several memoirists who have said exactly that—the initial drafting was a therapeutic effort. They had something they wanted to get off their chest, to get out of their heart, to put onto paper, to purge themselves of it. Then they set that aside and said, Okay, now I want to write something shareable. And the final product looked quite different.
 
For example, they may have written their whole experience out exactly as it occurred, but that wasn’t an interesting way to present it to a reader. So they shortened time frames, cut out uneventful periods, and focused intensively on one key moment—maybe one crucial hour in their life takes up more of the memoir than uneventful years.
 
I like the idea of separating private writing from public writing. And among all the other craft considerations that go into revising that private draft into a shareable work, factoring in legal considerations is important as well.
 
[00:23:38] Kathryn: Right. And then when you’re doing that, the question becomes, Do you fictionalize it completely?Because the crux of the story—the theme, the event, the transformation—can still be true to your experience, but everything else can be fictionalized. The characters, the place, the setting—everything can be completely different, and you can still tell your story. And once you do that, you significantly minimize the risk involved.
 
So again, it goes back to: What is your why? Why are you doing it?
 
[00:24:14] Matty: Well, that whole question of truth versus embellishment—if it’s completely fictionalized, that takes care of a lot of concerns. But if you decide to present it as a memoir, let’s say you grew up in a small town, and that town is a very important part of the experience. You want to name it, and people will be able to identify individuals in the story. Since memoir often involves a level of creative embellishment, how do you balance storytelling with legal obligations to avoid misrepresentation?
 
[00:24:49] Kathryn: Well, if you’re going to name the small town and include real people from that town, you need to stick to objective truths. Objective truths or frame things as your opinion. That’s how you’ll have to tell that story. And then, beyond the legal issues, there’s the reality that you might have the whole town in an uproar. That’s not a legal question, but it’s something to consider.
 
Lawsuits are no fun. You have to decide if this is something you’re willing to go through. Is it really important to name that small town? Again, I’ll point you to that interview I did with two memoirists who spoke very openly about why they made the choices they did in writing their stories. One of them went so far as to help sponsor legislation in his home state. He was the victim of abuse as a child and worked to get a law passed to address that issue.
 
That’s a big why. You have to think about how much of your life you’re willing to dedicate to this memoir—even after it’s published.
 
[00:26:45] Matty: Yeah, I like the idea of framing it that way. It also suggests another consideration—we talked about intentional infliction of emotional distress. But what about unintentional infliction of emotional distress? A writer might put something in their book that they don’t think will upset anyone, but then someone reads it and takes offense. Do you have advice on how people can assess or avoid unintentional infliction of emotional distress?
 
[00:27:12] Kathryn: That’s interesting because it ties back to something I said earlier—you can’t control how someone else is going to react. You also can’t anticipate whether they’ll file a claim. I’ve had many authors come to me and say, Nothing I wrote is bad! Everyone is portrayed in a good light! And I have to remind them, That’s your perspective. But you’re not the person reading it. You don’t know what their circumstances are, so you can’t predict how they’ll respond. That’s unintentional, but it can still create problems. That kind of reaction is less likely to lead to a legal claim and more likely to damage relationships.
 
[00:28:15] Matty: That reminds me of my corporate days when coworkers would ask for input on their performance appraisals. Sometimes, even if I had a great working relationship with someone and appreciated their contributions, I’d still send my feedback to them first before submitting it—just to make sure I wasn’t saying anything they didn’t want to be said. I’d ask, Is there anything here you wouldn’t want your boss to read?
 
I can imagine a similar approach with memoir—looping back with the real people involved and saying, Here’s a chapter about an interaction we had—what do you think? Not necessarily promising to change anything, but at least hearing their perspective. What are your thoughts on that, based on your work with memoirists?
 
[00:29:39] Kathryn: I don’t like it at all. I do not recommend sending portions of a manuscript to a third party for review. Even if you say, I’m not promising to make changes, you are still suggesting that their opinion matters. So why are you sending it? And if you don’t say that, are you giving them editorial control over your manuscript? As a general rule, I don’t like it.
 
I’ve seen cases where authors have asked for permission to use real places or details in their memoirs. That’s one thing. But once you send a written request for approval, what happens when they say no? Are you willing to rewrite the entire book?
 
I’ve also had authors send parts of their manuscript to people from their past—people they hadn’t spoken to in 25 years—just to give them a heads-up. And it backfired. The recipient was upset, contacted the publisher, contacted the author’s spouse—it became a problem. So I don’t advise it.
 
You’re better off focusing on what you can control. Analyze the risks, minimize them as much as possible, and decide what level of risk you’re comfortable with. But I would keep it in-house.
 
[00:31:56] Matty: Yeah, I can imagine in that scenario with the seminary, it makes sense that it would be a real legal risk to use the name without permission. If they had said no, do you think it would have been sufficient for the author to just change the name of the seminary?
 
[00:32:17] Kathryn: Change the name, change the location, change the description, change the hierarchy of power—you’d have to rewrite it. You also have to be careful when using real places in your stories, especially in fiction. In nonfiction, real events took place in real places, so you have more freedom to use them.
 
[00:32:42] Matty: But in fiction, if you put terrible events in a real place, the owners of that place could be very upset. You have to be careful about that. Many of my novels are set in the Philadelphia area, and I went to Penn. I was originally going to use Penn as a setting, but I thought some nefarious things were going to happen there, so I changed it to “William Penn University.”
 
I think everyone knows what I was getting at, and in the end, nothing bad actually happens there, but I still changed it. Sometimes you just want the freedom to move things around, even if it’s not something negative—like if I wanted a cafeteria in a building that doesn’t have one. I don’t want to be tied to reality.
 
[00:33:42] Kathryn: Right, and in the grand scheme, does it matter where it happens? You’re writing about a university with ivy-covered walls—it doesn’t have to be that university. As a creative writer, you’re inspired by Penn, but you can take that feeling and create something new.
 
[00:34:17] Matty: Exactly. I wanted to talk about a different topic: fair use.
 
A lot of people reflect on their lives and think of certain songs or lyrics that were meaningful to them. They want to include those lyrics in their books. What’s your advice for people considering that?
 
[00:34:39] Kathryn: Don’t. You can use the title of the song. You can use the artist’s name. You can describe the feeling the song gave you. But you cannot use the lyrics.
 
There is no reliable law on fair use of song lyrics or poetry that would protect an author at this time. Some legal arguments suggest it could be fair use, but look at it from the perspective of the songwriter or poet. If you’ve written just a few short lines that move millions of people, those lines are the heart and soul of your work. Why should someone be allowed to take those lines and put them into their book without permission?
 
If you think about it that way, it makes sense why you can’t use lyrics—you’d be taking the very essence of the song. And on top of that, there’s a licensing system in place where you can request permission and pay for the right to use the lyrics. That’s my current wisdom on the subject.
 
[00:36:33] Matty: Yeah, early on, I was interested in using a passage from The Sword in the Stone by T. H. White. Not only did it take forever to track down who actually owned the copyright—it had passed from one company to another over the years—but when I finally got an answer, I learned that the cost wasn’t unreasonable, but it was limited to a certain number of books.
 
For example, they might have said, You can use this for up to 1,000 copies, but if you sell more, you have to renew the license. And I thought, How do you even track that? I didn’t want to spend my life keeping tabs on that permission. They were willing to negotiate, but I ended up not using it.
 
[00:37:36] Kathryn: That’s interesting. I worked with a documentary filmmaker who wanted to use a Sade song in the background of his film. He went to great lengths to contact her directly, and because the subject was something she cared about, she gave permission. So it’s possible.
 
I’ve also had authors approach estates to request permission to use quotes from a celebrity’s journals or lyrics from a song, and they’ve received permission. So sometimes it’s worth reaching out and explaining the project directly. Bypassing the standard licensing system and going straight to the source can work.
 
[00:39:01] Matty: So it’s going to be a case-by-case situation. But just to be clear—are you saying that you cannot quote lyrics without permission?
 
[00:39:26] Kathryn: Correct. You need permission. And when you get that permission, it will take a very specific form. The copyright page will need to include a formal acknowledgment stating that the lyrics from [Song Name] by [Artist Name] are copyrighted and used with permission. When it comes to quoting longer works, fair use is determined case by case.
 
And a recent Supreme Court case, Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts, Inc. v. Goldsmith, added a new layer to fair use: if a work is available for licensing—meaning there’s an existing system to pay for the right to use it—it will be harder to claim fair use.
 
[00:41:02] Matty: That’s a great point.
 
One final thing I’d like to discuss is disclaimers. How much protection does a disclaimer at the beginning of a book offer?
 
[00:41:14] Kathryn: Disclaimers can reduce risk. They can warn the reader about the limits of what you’re writing. For example, if you’ve created a composite character—like merging two bad bosses into one—you can explain that in the disclaimer. Some courts give disclaimers significant weight. There isn’t a lot of litigation on this, but disclaimers help set the stage for how the reader perceives the book.
 
[00:41:45] Matty: That’s really helpful.
 
Kathryn, thank you so much for sharing your insights on minimizing legal risks in memoir and other types of writing. Where can people find more about you and your work?
 
[00:41:14] Kathryn: Please visit me at CreativeLawCenter.com. I offer extensive resources for creative professionals, including writers, artists, and entrepreneurs who are building businesses around their creative work.
 
I cover topics like copyright, trademarks, business development, and internet law. I also have a membership program where I provide ongoing support. So please stop by—I’d love to connect.
 
[00:41:45] Matty: Sounds great. Thanks again!
 
[00:41:47] Kathryn: You’re welcome! Thanks for having me, Matty.

Episode 275 - Getting Unstuck in Book Marketing and Promotion with Michael La Ronn

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Michael La Ronn discusses GETTING UNSTUCK IN BOOK MARKETING AND PROMOTION, including how authors can get unstuck when traditional methods like ads and blogger reviews are not affordable or effective. He emphasizes the importance of having an email list and a reader magnet, using strategic pricing, updating book descriptions, and optimizing back matter. They also discuss leveraging relationships with other authors for cross-promotion and the potential of using Kickstarter. Matty and Michael highlight various low-cost and free resources, while underscoring the significance of setting realistic expectations and being persistent in the journey of indie publishing.
 
Michael La Ronn has published many science fiction & fantasy books and self-help books for writers. He built a writing career publishing 10-12 books per year while raising a family, working a full-time job, and even attending law school classes in the evenings. Visit his fiction website at www.michaellaronn.com and his resources for writers at www.authorlevelup.com.

Episode Links

Michael's Links:
https://www.authorlevelup.com
https://www.youtube.com/authorlevelup

Related Episodes:
Episode 169 - The Do's and Don'ts of Working with Book Bloggers with Kristopher Zgorski
Episode 221 - Leveraging Your Tribe of Influence with Stephanie Chandler
Episode 252 - Strategic Website Planning for Authors with Pauline Wiles
Episode 230 - The Good, the Bad, and the Surprising of Kickstarter with Megan Haskell and Jennifer Hilt

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Michael La Ronn about strategies for indie authors to get unstuck when marketing challenges arise. They delve into the essential components of marketing and promotion, providing valuable insights for authors navigating the digital landscape without a hefty advertising budget.
 
Michael La Ronn shares his experiences and strategies for keeping momentum in book marketing, focusing on what is within an author’s control. A key takeaway is the importance of setting realistic expectations and defining what "nothing is working" truly means for one's writing career. Michael emphasizes that goals should align with what authors can control, such as productivity, website presence, and building relationships with readers and other authors, rather than focusing solely on sales metrics.
 
Matty and Michael highlight the significance of having an email list and reader magnet, noting these as foundational tools in an indie author's toolkit. They discuss optimizing existing resources and the potential creativity in developing reader magnets that extend beyond short stories to something that genuinely engages the audience, such as prequels or novellas.
 
Reviews, often a controversial topic in the indie publishing community, are examined with Michael staunchly disagreeing with the notion that they don't matter. He recommends several platforms, including Bookish First and Booksprout, as low-cost or free options to acquire reviews ethically. These platforms are excellent avenues for getting initial feedback, which is crucial for an author’s credibility and subsequent promotional efforts.
 
Additionally, Matty shares insights into leveraging social media and email newsletters not just for direct sales pitches, but as a method to build relationships and offer value through content that aligns with their readers' interests. They stress the idea that simply saying "buy my book" continually isn’t going to produce results; engaging, relevant content is key.
 
On the promotion side, Michael offers guidance for authors who may not be able to invest heavily in advertising. He recommends exploring Amazon Ads as a cost-effective option for those with tight budgets, pointing out that they generally do not spend the full budgeted amount but still reach potential readers. He also underscores the original method of marketing through building genuine relationships with other authors, suggesting newsletter swaps as a reciprocal way to increase visibility without monetary cost.
 
They discuss the potential and challenges of platforms like Kickstarter to fund book projects and expand reach. Michael sees this as an opportunity for learning and honing marketing skills, even if not every campaign results in full funding.
 
Finally, Matty and Michael cover practical changes authors can make, such as reevaluating book pricing and descriptions. A strategic look at back matter for cross-promotion of books within a series and ensuring that pricing reflects both the value and the competitive landscape of comparable titles on retail platforms, can make a significant difference in sales outcomes.
 
In conclusion, both Matty and Michael emphasize patience and perseverance, recognizing that success in indie publishing takes time, and continuous learning and adaptation are part of the journey. Authors should celebrate small victories, focus on incremental improvements, and remain mindful of long-term goals while building a sustainable writing career.
 
This episode of The Indy Author Podcast provides a comprehensive, actionable roadmap for indie authors needing strategic direction to overcome marketing hurdles and achieve a sustained path to success.

Episode 270 - Author Assistants: Finding One or Being One with Kate Tilton

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Kate Tilton discusses AUTHOR ASSISTANTS: FINDING ONE OR BEING ONE, including the various types of support an author assistant can offer, from organizing emails and managing forums to handling newsletters and connecting with PR firms. We explore the complexities of finding the right assistant, balancing workload, and the importance of clear communication and trust. Kate also touches on strategies for authors who find themselves overwhelmed and seeking help, providing valuable insights for anyone considering hiring or becoming an author assistant.
 
Kate Tilton is the founder of Kate Tilton’s Author Services, where she has been helping authors since 2010. Kate works with authors of all stripes, from New York Times and USA Today bestsellers to pre-publication authors. Becca Syme calls her "the best author support in the industry." A cat-lover and fan of many geeky things, Kate can likely be found curled up with tea and a good book, plotting world takeover, or connecting authors and readers in any way she can.

Episode Links

https://katetilton.com/  
https://www.theindyauthor.com/072---mentoring-and-collaborating-with-interns.html

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Kate Tilton about the role of author assistants and how to incorporate them into writing business operations. They discuss the origin of Kate's career as an author assistant and explore the essential considerations for indie authors seeking to hire help, and for individuals interested in becoming author assistants themselves.
 
Kate Tilton's journey into the world of author assistance began unexpectedly during her high school years when she stumbled upon an author seeking an assistant. Her career as an author assistant was born from this serendipitous encounter, highlighting how organic and unexpected career paths can be. This story emphasizes the importance of being open to opportunities and adaptable in career choices.
 
The conversation then delves into what an author assistant does. Kate explains that the role of an author assistant is highly diverse, often more diversified than many might assume. An author assistant can help manage emails, organize contests, manage forums, handle social media, and much more. This aligns with the needs of authors at different stages of their writing careers—from bestselling authors to those yet to publish a book. Kate stressed the importance of distinguishing what tasks are better suited for specialists, like social media or PR, vs. those that an assistant could handle.
 
The podcast episode also addresses the expectations authors should have when considering hiring an assistant. Matty and Kate talk about strategies for identifying when it's time to hire help. Kate recommends that authors should list everything they are doing, assess which tasks could be delegated, and identify the level of assistance required. For those who feel overwhelmed, a consultation with a coach who understands the indie author market could be highly beneficial.
 
Matty shares a personal story of employing a best friend as a business manager. She found that clarity improved when procedures were documented meticulously. It became evident during her collaboration that delegating tasks based on the strengths of the assistant could enhance productivity. This highlights the importance of a strategic approach when determining which responsibilities to hand over to an assistant.
 
On the other side, Kate suggests that for those interested in pursuing a career as an author assistant, starting with specific skills or tasks is beneficial. Building experience through smaller, more focused jobs and then expanding skills and services is a practical way to enter the field. Networking and getting recommendations from industry connections can also play a significant role in both hiring an assistant and becoming one.
 
Matty and Kate discuss the challenges and solutions in navigating client-assistant relationships, such as ensuring access to necessary resources without compromising security. The example of using password managers like LastPass increases security when sharing login credentials. They also talk about making sure that critical aspects of the business, such as website access, are adequately managed to prevent issues.
 
Kate advises being wary of potential 'red flags' when hiring an assistant, such as lack of professionalism or clarity in communication. Similarly, understanding the nuances between being an employee and a contractor is crucial for both parties to maintain a clear and productive working relationship.
 
The episode concludes with a focus on continuous improvement, both for authors considering hiring help and for aspiring assistants. The advice shared aides in creating productive partnerships that free authors to focus on writing while giving assistants the chance to refine their skills in the publishing industry.
 
This podcast episode provides valuable insights into the effective hiring and training of an author assistant, emphasizing the power of good organization and communication to streamline personal writing and business processes. By sharing her experiences, Kate encourages both authors and aspiring assistants to pursue the working relationships that best support mutual growth and success.

Episode 265 - Connecting and Captivating with Author Readings with Gary Zenker

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Gary Zenker discusses CONNECTING AND CAPTIVATING WITH AUTHOR READINGS, including how readings help create a personal connection with readers, practical tips for preparing and delivering effective readings, finding or creating reading opportunities, and ensuring that your materials align with the theme, venue, and audience.

By day, Gary Zenker is a marketing strategist; by night, he creates flash fiction tales that cross genre and focus on revealing facets of human nature. His stories have been selected for various print anthologies, including Chicken Soup For The Soul: Laughter, and online collections. He founded two writers groups in southeastern PA, and continues to lead one assisting writers to develop their skills and achieve their writing goals. He is also the creator of Writers Bloxx, a storytelling game.

Episode Links

https://www.garyzenkerstoryteller.com/​
https://www.facebook.com/gary.zenker/

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Gary Zenker about the significant role of author readings in building an audience and enhancing author visibility. The conversation explores the benefits of public readings for writers, particularly as a way to engage directly with audiences, control the interpretation of their work, and develop public speaking skills.
 
Gary Zenker, a seasoned writer and organizer of author readings, emphasizes the unique connection established when authors read their own work. Unlike print, live readings allow authors to observe immediate audience reactions and to influence how their work is perceived, offering a powerful tool for fan engagement and platform building.
 
The discussion delves into the preparation required for a successful reading. Gary advises authors to meticulously prep both themselves and their material. This includes reading the work aloud to identify necessary changes, ensuring clarity in dialogue through added tags, and timing the material to fit within designated time slots to avoid overrunning. Gary also stresses the importance of practicing the reading to maintain the rhythm and impact of the story, encouraging authors to practice in front of a mirror or an audience to build confidence and ensure effective delivery.
 
Matty and Gary address the common issue of reading too quickly, which can detract from the storytelling aspect of a performance. Gary recounts a situation where a poet’s rapid delivery overshadowed the beauty of the work, highlighting the necessity for authors to slow down and allow their audience to absorb the narrative.
 
Gary suggests authors always prepare multiple pieces, enabling adaptability depending on previous readers' themes or audience demographics. For logistical purposes, Gary advises against reading directly from a book due to its awkward handling, favoring printed scripts with backup copies stored electronically, ensuring preparedness for any eventuality during the reading.
 
The podcast further explores the critical aspect of self-recording during readings. By doing so, authors can review their performance and improve their public speaking skills. Gary notes, “It’s a different experience when you put all those people there,” suggesting that live recording grants invaluable insights into an author’s presentation.
 
Engagement with the audience is another focal point. Gary advises practicing to avoid fillers like "um," which can disrupt the flow of reading. Eye contact and cueing from the audience can enhance connection, showing professional confidence and respect for attendees.
 
After the reading, Gary highlights the importance of author-community interaction. He encourages authors to be active participants throughout the event, stressing staying from the first to the last reading to support fellow authors and maximize networking opportunities. He notes the value of feedback and relationship-building within the writer community.
 
Matty and Gary touch on hosting one’s own events if current offerings seem sparse. Coordinating an event involves logistics such as securing a venue willing to host for minimal cost, ensuring sound and lighting adequacy, and selecting reliable participants who will promote the event and adhere to its thematic and time constraints.
 
In summary, the podcast episode provides an insightful guide into leveraging author readings as both a creative outlet and a strategic marketing tool. It emphasizes preparing thoroughly, practicing diligently, and participating actively within a writing community to maximize the benefits of public readings. These efforts are depicted as fundamental in fostering audience relations and enhancing an author’s public persona.

Episode 264 - Building Your Brand through Networking with Dale L. Roberts

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Dale L. Roberts discusses BUILDING YOUR BRAND THROUGH NETWORKING, including BUILDING YOUR BRAND THROUGH NETWORKING, including how connecting with industry professionals, participating in community discussions, and utilizing online platforms can significantly impact an author's success. He emphasizes the need for a clear author brand and effective networking strategies, offering practical advice on overcoming imposter syndrome and speaking confidently. Dale explains the value of mutual support within the indie author community and discusses his new book, NETWORKING FOR AUTHORS, which combines memoir elements with actionable strategies for both introverted and extroverted authors.

Dale L. Roberts is a self-publishing advocate, award-winning author, and renowned video creator. With over 50 publications, he has become an authority in self-publishing, leading him to create his own YouTube channel, Self-Publishing with Dale, regarded as one of the premier information resources in the indie publishing community.

Episode Links

https://selfpublishingwithdale.com
https://www.youtube.com/selfpublishingwithdale
https://dalelinks.com/discord
https://www.facebook.com/selfpubwithdale
https://twitter.com/selfpubwithdale
https://www.tiktok.com/@selfpubwithdale
https://www.instagram.com/selfpubwithdale/

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with author and podcast host Dale L. Roberts about the power and importance of networking for authors. They delve into the nuances of building professional relationships and branding in the indie author world. This conversation provides valuable insights for authors looking to expand their reach and build a more supportive community around their work.
 
Understanding Networking for Authors
 
Networking is a critical aspect of any author’s career, especially in the indie publishing world. As Dale shares, a lot of his opportunities emerged from his connections and collaborative projects, highlighting the importance of being actively engaged with fellow authors and industry professionals. He emphasizes that networking doesn't require having a large platform initially, as relationships and opportunities can develop over time.
 
Developing Your Author Brand
 
A key point discussed is author branding. An author brand should clearly communicate who you are and what you represent. For instance, Dale suggests that knowing your value is essential, whether you are a young adult author or a self-publishing coach. Your unique qualities should be highlighted to create a lasting impression when networking.
 
Dale advises that authors work on being able to summarize their brand succinctly, mentioning that understanding your personal and professional strengths can significantly enhance your networking efforts. He encourages authors to have a clear pitch that can be altered depending on the audience, ensuring it reflects your journey as an author accurately.
 
Navigating Networking as an Introvert
 
Addressing the challenge for introverts, Dale shares that many authors, himself included, deal with feelings of imposter syndrome. He suggests viewing oneself from a third-person perspective to gain confidence in networking scenarios. This approach involves creating a persona that represents your professional identity and talents, potentially boosting your confidence even if the experience is initially uncomfortable.
 
Building Relationships Online
 
With numerous opportunities available online, Dale stresses the potential of virtual networking. He discusses how platforms like virtual conferences, online forums, and communities on Discord or social media can be powerful venues for making connections. Online interactions, he says, offer a veil of safety for those who might be uncomfortable in person, allowing authors to engage and build their network from the comfort of their own environment.
 
Dale shares an example from his own experience with Twitter, where despite initially using it primarily for link dumping, it led to valuable connections like meeting Kevin Tumlinson from Draft2Digital. This story underlines the unpredictability and vast potential of online networking.
 
The Reciprocation of Goodwill
 
The conversation also touches on the importance of reciprocating goodwill in professional relationships. Dale notes that while immediate reciprocity shouldn’t be expected, it’s essential to maintain a two-way interaction to nurture these relationships. He advises against continually giving to someone who doesn’t reciprocate and suggests focusing on those who appreciate and return the favor.
 
Conclusion
 
As this podcast episode illustrates, networking is indispensable for authors. Whether you are an introvert or an extrovert, whether you have awards to your name or are just starting, there’s always room to grow your network. Engaging with online communities, carefully crafting your personal brand, and understanding the mutual benefits of goodwill can create pathways to new opportunities. Dale highlights that networking not only broadens one's professional reach but also enriches personal growth and mutual support within the author community.
 
This episode equips listeners with pragmatic advice and encouragement to step out and connect with others in the writing and publishing industry, ensuring they aren’t isolated in their journey towards success.

Episode 258 - Getting the Word Out: Media Campaigns for Authors with Marie Whittaker

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Marie Whittaker discusses GETTING THE WORD OUT: MEDIA CAMPAIGNS FOR AUTHORS, including why press releases remain a valuable promotional tool, the five milestones that deserve a press release, how press releases compare with social media posting, media campaigns for crowdfunding, tips for approaching bookstores and libraries, whether authors can apply these tips to their backlists, and how to maximize the value of your website real estate.

Marie Whittaker enjoys teaching about publishing and project management for writers. She’s Associate Publisher at WordFire Press and Executive Director of Superstars Writing. She started her career writing horror. Marie created The Adventures of Lola Hopscotch, is published in Weird Tales, and habitually adopts rescue animals.

Episode Links

https://mariewhittaker.com/
https://www.instagram.com/mariewhittaker_/
​https://www.facebook.com/marie.g.whittaker

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Marie Whittaker about the evolving expectations of authors in both traditional and independent publishing. The conversation delves into the changing dynamics of the author-publisher relationship and emphasizes the importance of authors taking an active role in the marketing and promotion of their work.
 
Marie begins by highlighting a significant shift in the traditional publishing world. Gone are the days when publishers took complete control of an author's career and provided comprehensive marketing support. She points out that current publishers look for a partnership with authors. This means that authors are expected to tackle much of the legwork involved in promoting their projects.
 
Marie notes, "They're looking for a partnership with their authors. The heyday when they're going to do everything for authors and be your big motivation behind your work, that's over."
 
The discussion underlines that accepting this reality is crucial for authors. Embracing the need for self-promotion is not just advantageous but necessary. In both traditional and independent publishing, authors must be proactive in engaging audiences and driving the success of their books.
 
This insight into modern publishing highlights several essential actions for authors:
 
1. Building a Personal Brand: Authors should invest in creating a recognizable and professional personal brand. This can include a well-designed website, active social media presence, and consistent communication with their audience.
  
2. Engaging with Readers: Authors need to cultivate a relationship with their readers. This can be accomplished through regular updates, newsletters, fan interactions, and leveraging social media platforms effectively.
 
3. Collaborating with Publishers: A partnership approach with publishers can enhance the marketing strategy. By working collaboratively, authors and publishers can align on promotional activities and ensure that both parties are contributing to the book's success.
 
4. Learning Marketing Skills: Understanding basic marketing principles and tactics is becoming increasingly important. Authors should educate themselves on topics like SEO, social media marketing, email marketing, and content creation.
 
Marie’s straightforward discussion provides a reality check for authors aspiring to succeed in today's competitive market. While publishing routes may differ, the core responsibility of promoting one's work remains consistent. Authors must be ready to partner with publishers and readers to elevate their projects.
 
Marie concludes with a pragmatic perspective: "Might as well embrace that." This statement encourages authors to adapt to these changes willingly and actively participate in the promotion of their work.
 
In summary, this podcast episode offers valuable insights into the current expectations placed on authors, emphasizing the shift towards a more collaborative and proactive approach to book promotion in both traditional and independent publishing domains. Whether you're a seasoned author or just starting, understanding and embracing these responsibilities is key to achieving success in today's literary landscape.

Episode 257 - Book Sponsorships with Dale L. Roberts

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Dale L. Roberts discusses BOOK SPONSORSHIPS, based on his experience soliciting sponsors for his series of non-fiction books. We discuss the importance of matching sponsorships with your theme and brand; of reading the fine print in the terms and conditions of the platforms you will use to distribute your book; how he made the decision about where to place the ads and what reader response has been; the information you’ll need to pitch a potential sponsor, and the importance of asking “why” if you get a no. We also discuss some ways that fiction authors might pursue sponsorships for their books and whether sponsorships and crowdfunding is an either/or or a both/and proposition.

Dale L. Roberts is a self-publishing advocate, award-winning author, and renowned video creator. With over 50 publications, he has become an authority in self-publishing, leading him to create his own YouTube channel, Self-Publishing with Dale, regarded as one of the premier information resources in the indie publishing community. Dale lives in Columbus, Ohio, with his wife Kelli and two rescue cats, Auggie and Allie.

Episode Links

https://www.facebook.com/selfpubwithdale
https://twitter.com/selfpubwithdale
https://www.instagram.com/selfpubwithdale/
https://www.youtube.com/selfpublishingwithdale

Summary

This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Matty Dalrymple talks with Dale L. Roberts about the concept of book sponsorships and how indie authors can leverage this strategy to fund their publishing projects. Dale shares his personal experiences, strategies, and practical advice on navigating the world of sponsorships.
 
The Concept of Book Sponsorships
Dale delves into his journey of securing book sponsorships, explaining how his background in securing sponsorships for his YouTube channel led him to explore similar opportunities for his books. He shares the initial spark that led him to consider book sponsorships, mentioning a conversation with his friend Justin Moore, a renowned expert in brand deals and sponsorships. Justin had not only thought of book sponsorships first but had also envisioned even more ambitious ideas, such as securing multiple sponsors for a single publication.
 
Securing Sponsorships: The Process
Dale emphasizes the importance of approaching potential sponsors well in advance of a book's launch date. He shares his experience of reaching out to his dream brands, including Miblart, Draft2Digital, and Book Award Pro. Despite the tight timeline, he successfully secured four out of five sponsors, underscoring the necessity of having a strategic and proactive approach.
 
Presenting Ads to Readers
Matty inquires about how the ads are presented to readers within Dale's books. Dale explains that he places the ads in the front matter to capitalize on the "Look Inside" feature on Amazon, ensuring maximum visibility. However, he acknowledges feedback suggesting that placing ads in the back matter might offer better context and appeal once readers have engaged with the book's content.
 
Organic Product Placement vs. Traditional Ads
The discussion shifts to the idea of integrating ads more organically into the book's content. Dale recalls advice from Johnny Andrews, who suggested that product placement within the book's narrative might feel more genuine and less intrusive than traditional ads. While Dale admits this train of thought came too late for his current series, he acknowledges the potential of this approach for future projects.
 
Reader and Platform Response
Matty asks about reader and platform responses to these sponsorships. Dale reassures that he has not received negative feedback from readers. He also discusses the importance of reviewing platform terms and conditions to ensure compliance with rules regarding ads in books. While enforcement of these rules seems rare, Dale advises caution to avoid potential account issues.
 
Risk Tolerance and Suitability for New Authors
Addressing concerns for new authors, Dale highlights the importance of risk tolerance and the groundwork required to secure sponsors. He encourages new authors to leverage their creativity and to approach potential sponsors with a well-thought-out proposal that outlines the benefits for the sponsor. He also advises tracking data meticulously to support future negotiations.
 
Real-world Examples and Creative Opportunities
Matty shares her thoughts on integrating real-world locations, such as local airports or wineries, into her fiction books, blending sponsorships with the narrative in a fun and engaging way. Dale likens this to product placements in movies, citing Adam Sandler's effective use of brand integration. This creative approach can make sponsorships feel less commercial and more integral to the story.
 
Crowdfunding vs. Sponsorships
Matty and Dale discuss the parallels between sponsorships and crowdfunding platforms like Kickstarter. Dale mentions his consideration of Kickstarter for his series but decided against it due to the additional workload while managing his sponsorship deals. He suggests that combining both methods could be viable for those with the bandwidth to handle the demands.
 
Final Advice
Dale concludes with practical advice for authors considering sponsorships. He emphasizes the importance of aligning with brands that resonate with one's audience and ensuring transparency about sponsorships to maintain trust. Matty adds that highlighting planned promotional efforts can also help authors without a track record to demonstrate their seriousness and gain sponsor support.
 
In this episode, Dale L. Roberts sheds light on the nuanced world of book sponsorships, providing valuable insights and actionable advice for indie authors looking to explore this innovative funding avenue. Whether you're an established author or just starting, understanding the dynamics of sponsorships can open new opportunities for creative collaboration and financial support.

Episode 252 - Strategic Website Planning for Authors with Pauline Wiles

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Pauline Wiles discusses STRATEGIC WEBSITE PLANNING FOR AUTHORS. This conversation was prompted by Matty's need to migrate her websites—MattyDalrymple.com and TheIndyAuthor.com—off Weebly, since Square, which owns Weebly, is phasing out support for Weebly. Pauline and Matty delve into the critical aspects of planning a website overhaul, such as understanding author goals, target readership, and key marketing tactics. Pauline emphasizes the need to keep sites simple and user-friendly and discusses tools and integrations that are effective for different types of authors. The conversation also covers practical tips for improving website functionality and engaging visitors, including the use of popups for email sign-ups.

Pauline Wiles is an author turned website designer, who helps authors and solopreneurs with books create modern websites for strong business results. Her strategic approach delivers a powerful marketing asset that grows your audience and sells your books and services. British by birth, Pauline is now a contented resident of California.

Episode Links

https://www.paulinewiles.com/
https://www.instagram.com/paulinejwiles
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIErOCKJGjRjsXz395fd0Bg

Episode References:
Episode 073 - Author Websites with Pauline Wiles
Episode 238 - The Big Indie Author Data Drop 2024 with Melissa Addey

Summary

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