Episode 221 - Leveraging Your Tribe of Influence with Stephanie Chandler
January 16, 2024
Are you getting value from the podcast? Consider supporting me on Patreon or through Buy Me a Coffee!
Stephanie Chandler discusses LEVERAGING YOUR TRIBE OF INFLUENCE, including the power of tapping into your existing tribe and of expanding beyond that tribe; the value of beta readers to address the problem of obscurity; the downside of promoting outside your target audience, of selling to other writers, and of relying on the "rented real estate" of social media; the importance of creating a reciprocal relationship and exhibiting professionalism; tips for pursuing aspirational contacts; and how each new contact opens a network of others.
If one of those topics piques your interest, you can easily jump to that section on YouTube by clicking on the flagged timestamps in the description.
If one of those topics piques your interest, you can easily jump to that section on YouTube by clicking on the flagged timestamps in the description.
Listen to the full episode ...
Listen to and watch the interview ...
"I think this is maybe somewhere that authors struggle too because, you're right, you've got your initial community of people that know and love you, but then what happens after that, So how do you keep your momentum? Because book marketing isn't about the first 30 days. It's about the next five years, So you want to kind of create that long game strategy, which means growing your tribe of influence. It means finding your target audience. Where are they spending time? How can you connect with them?" —Stephanie Chandler
Stephanie Chandler is the author of several books including The Nonfiction Book Publishing Plan. She is CEO of the Nonfiction Authors Association, a vibrant community for writers, and the Nonfiction Writers Conference, a live event conducted entirely online since 2010. A frequent speaker at business events and on the radio, she has been featured in Entrepreneur, BusinessWeek, The Writer, Writer’s Digest, and Wired magazine.
Links
Stephanie's Links:
Author website: https://nonfictionauthorsassociation.com
Facebook profile: https://www.facebook.com/nonfictionauthorsassociation/
Instagram profile: https://www.instagram.com/nonfictionassociation/
LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniechandler
YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@nonfictionauthorsassociati6015
Matty's Links:
Affiliate links
Events
Author website: https://nonfictionauthorsassociation.com
Facebook profile: https://www.facebook.com/nonfictionauthorsassociation/
Instagram profile: https://www.instagram.com/nonfictionassociation/
LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniechandler
YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@nonfictionauthorsassociati6015
Matty's Links:
Affiliate links
Events
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Stephanie! What did you think about Stephanie’s idea of getting your book out to hundreds of beta readers to serve as your launch team?
Please post your comments on YouTube--and I'd love it if you would subscribe while you're there!
Are you getting value from the podcast? Consider supporting me on Patreon or through Buy Me a Coffee!
AI-generated Summary
In a recent conversation on the Indie Author Podcast, Matty, the podcast host, invited Stephanie Chandler, author and CEO of the Nonfiction Authors Association, to share valuable insights on how authors can leverage their existing tribes, or communities, to boost their book launches.
A Warm Welcome
The podcast kicked off with warm greetings between Matty and Stephanie. As an author and a staple in the publishing industry, Stephanie’s insights were welcomed with much anticipation.
Background on Stephanie Chandler
Before diving into the heart of the conversation, Matty elaborated on Stephanie's background. As a renowned author, the CEO of the Nonfiction Authors Association, and the brainpower behind the Nonfiction Writers Conference, Stephanie was portrayed as a trusted authority for indie authors.
Stephanie's perspective about authors having an existing tribe, or an audience, was particularly mentioned, emphasizing that authors often underestimate the potential of their current networks.
Leveraging Existing Tribes
During the conversation, Stephanie gave real examples of how she leverages her network when launching a new book. Recognizing the importance of her personal and professional contacts, she emphasized the significance of authors exploring beyond industry circles. Your tribe could consist of old school friends, neighbors, or even coworker relations in different industries – all of whom could become cheerleaders for your book.
Meeting Your Readers Where They Are
One aspect of our conversation centered around the transition of an author's tribe. From people who support you because they like you to people who genuinely enjoy your book and stay for the content. It’s essential to recognize this shift and expand your reach beyond your initial group of supporters.
Your Community and Your Tribe
The conversation then segued into beta readers, a vital part of the book publishing journey, particularly with an eye for building a loyal tribe. Matty underscored the need for beta readers to improve the manuscript and identify the core group of people invested in the author's work. Stephanie added that beta readers could serve as your initial launch team, promoting your book within their networks, thus expanding your tribe.
Aspirational Tribe: Beyond Your Immediate Circle
Finally, the conversation reached its peak, discussing the importance of identifying the "aspirational tribe," those key influencers and figures in your genre you wish to engage with. Stephanie suggested that showing professionalism, understanding your target audience, and crafting your pitch in a way that offers value are steps towards engaging with your aspirational tribe.
Final Thoughts
In conclusion, the podcast episode underscored the centrality of building and leveraging your tribe in the book-writing journey. The conversation between Matty and Stephanie shared practical advice for burgeoning and established authors on identifying, growing, and maintaining their tribes.
The podcast inculcated the concept that growing your author tribe is not an isolated task. It's about connecting with your network, meeting your readers where they are, and continuing to expand your reach beyond those initial circles. And above all, it's about nurturing relationships that matter, to your book, to yourself, and ultimately to your tribe.
A Warm Welcome
The podcast kicked off with warm greetings between Matty and Stephanie. As an author and a staple in the publishing industry, Stephanie’s insights were welcomed with much anticipation.
Background on Stephanie Chandler
Before diving into the heart of the conversation, Matty elaborated on Stephanie's background. As a renowned author, the CEO of the Nonfiction Authors Association, and the brainpower behind the Nonfiction Writers Conference, Stephanie was portrayed as a trusted authority for indie authors.
Stephanie's perspective about authors having an existing tribe, or an audience, was particularly mentioned, emphasizing that authors often underestimate the potential of their current networks.
Leveraging Existing Tribes
During the conversation, Stephanie gave real examples of how she leverages her network when launching a new book. Recognizing the importance of her personal and professional contacts, she emphasized the significance of authors exploring beyond industry circles. Your tribe could consist of old school friends, neighbors, or even coworker relations in different industries – all of whom could become cheerleaders for your book.
Meeting Your Readers Where They Are
One aspect of our conversation centered around the transition of an author's tribe. From people who support you because they like you to people who genuinely enjoy your book and stay for the content. It’s essential to recognize this shift and expand your reach beyond your initial group of supporters.
Your Community and Your Tribe
The conversation then segued into beta readers, a vital part of the book publishing journey, particularly with an eye for building a loyal tribe. Matty underscored the need for beta readers to improve the manuscript and identify the core group of people invested in the author's work. Stephanie added that beta readers could serve as your initial launch team, promoting your book within their networks, thus expanding your tribe.
Aspirational Tribe: Beyond Your Immediate Circle
Finally, the conversation reached its peak, discussing the importance of identifying the "aspirational tribe," those key influencers and figures in your genre you wish to engage with. Stephanie suggested that showing professionalism, understanding your target audience, and crafting your pitch in a way that offers value are steps towards engaging with your aspirational tribe.
Final Thoughts
In conclusion, the podcast episode underscored the centrality of building and leveraging your tribe in the book-writing journey. The conversation between Matty and Stephanie shared practical advice for burgeoning and established authors on identifying, growing, and maintaining their tribes.
The podcast inculcated the concept that growing your author tribe is not an isolated task. It's about connecting with your network, meeting your readers where they are, and continuing to expand your reach beyond those initial circles. And above all, it's about nurturing relationships that matter, to your book, to yourself, and ultimately to your tribe.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Matty: Hello and welcome to The Indy Author Podcast. Today, my guest is Stephanie Chandler. Hey Stephanie, how are you doing?
[00:00:06] Stephanie: Hey Matty, I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.
Meet Stephanie Chandler
[00:00:08] Matty: It is my pleasure to give our listeners and viewers a little bit of background on you. Stephanie Chandler is the author of several books, including the Nonfiction Book Publishing Plan. She is the CEO of the Nonfiction Authors Association, a vibrant community for writers, and the Nonfiction Writers Conference, a live event conducted entirely online since 2010. A frequent speaker at business events and on the radio, she has been featured in Entrepreneur, Business Week, Writer's Digest, and Wired Magazine.
The Power of Tapping into Your Existing Tribe
[00:00:33] Matty: And I invited Stephanie on the podcast because I heard her speaking on the idea of leveraging your existing tribe of influence. Listeners to the podcast know that we often discuss what you can do once you've identified the group of people you want to reach out to. What I really like is Stephanie's perspective that you probably have a bigger tribe than you already realize and that you're not starting from zero. You already have a pool of people to tap into. So, Stephanie, I'm really just going to open it up with that introduction, and we'll see where the conversation takes us in terms of realizing who your tribe already is.
[00:01:12] Stephanie: Great, I love that. So yeah, this is something that I do every time I launch a new book. I'm going through it right now. I have a book coming out in January, so I will sit down and think about who do I know, and maybe people I haven't connected with in some time. You and I are busy people, and we have lots of friends in the industry. I make a long list of people that I know, and I go through my emails. I look through my social media contacts because we forget when we lose touch with people.
Another thing I'd like to recommend to authors is beyond your own industry. Who do you know in your own circle? This could be people you went to school with, former coworkers, neighbors, people that you coached your kid's soccer team with 10 years ago. Let me just say that these people who have been friends or acquaintances in your life, when you have a book coming out, that's really exciting, especially to people who haven't written a book. Letting them know that this is happening, they want to support you, they want you to be successful.
I think about how I come from Silicon Valley, and if I wrote technology books, you can bet I would be reaching out to all my former coworkers who are now at 25 different software companies. They've moved on in the last 20 years, but I'd be reaching out and saying, "Hey, do you want to buy books to give away to your staff? Do you want to buy books to give to your customers? Can you bring me in to do a speaking engagement? Can you put me on your podcast? Can I contribute to your blog or your company magazine?" That's the point of this exercise—spend some time digging into who you know and how they might be able to help you successfully launch and promote your book.
[00:03:07] Matty: Yeah, I know that when I left the corporate world after a couple of decades, I had hundreds and hundreds of LinkedIn contacts. There was a period of time where I wasn't tapping into them at all because I just thought, oh, well, that's from a different life, and they don't need to know what I'm doing now. But, I changed my mind about that for all the reasons that you just said.
The downside of writers selling to writers
[00:03:25] Matty: And I think the other thing that's really interesting is that I realized during a book launch or two ago, I was comparing the book launch, which was just like, hey, everybody, I have a new book. It was the world's most pathetic book launch. When I think back to my earlier book launches, I would have a happy hour at a local bar and do it up more. I realized that part of that is when I was launching my early books, my pool of acquaintances were all non-writers. So, as you were saying, if you write a book, it's big news with that group of people. Whereas now, my pool of acquaintances is mainly writers, and if you say, "Oh, I'm launching a book," we're like, big whoop because, they all launched a book, like, yesterday.
[00:04:36] Stephanie: One of my pet peeves is writers trying to sell to writers. Whenever I go to speak at a local writers’ group or a writers’ conference, writers are constantly trying to sell. That is just missing the point to me. With marketing, you really want to know your target audience and explain what's in it for them to read your book.
So when you're promoting your book to fellow writers, unless we read the same genre, to me, that is not your best use of your time. Then there's that crossover between those people. Like I said, my former coworkers are in Silicon Valley. I write books for writing, nonfiction publishing, and marketing. Most of them probably aren't interested in that, so they're not my main tribe. I'm focusing on people who can potentially support the book in some way, are interested in the book.
One coworker comes to mind who now works at Google. Google has a speaker series. So guess what? I will be reaching out to him because, there's that old statistic that we don't know where it came from, but it says that 80 percent of people want to write a book. So that's always something I could lean on for that.
Expanding past your initial tribe
[00:05:33] Matty: I think that writers early in their careers, when you launch your first book, chances are you're going to sell it to your mom, your neighbor, and your college roommate. I think there's also a transition to understanding that your tribe changes from the people who know and like you to the people who want to buy your book because they are interested in your book's topic and the genre. Maybe you don't want to keep hammering that initial tribe if you've graduated past mom, your neighbor, and the person you went to school with. Is that a mindset shift about understanding the tribe?
[00:06:13] Stephanie: Well, yeah, and expanding your reach, right? I think this is maybe somewhere that authors struggle because you've got your initial community of people that know and love you. But then what happens after that? So how do you keep your momentum? Because book marketing isn't about the first 30 days. It's about the next five years. So you want to create that long game strategy, which means growing your tribe of influence. It means finding your target audience. Where are they spending time? How can you connect with them?
I'm a huge believer in building your own email list, getting involved. For example, does your target audience participate in any trade associations? If so, can you go and participate in those trade associations? Maybe you write books about dog care. There are lots of associations for dog lovers, dog owners, and dog trainers. So what events do they have that you could participate in, or could you write for their blog or their newsletter?
Can you get involved and get to know them? And who else is influential in that space? How can you connect with them? So yeah, there's definitely that next step where you're expanding out from your smaller circle to try to create bigger circles.
The value of beta readers for marketing
[00:07:36] Matty: I think that's a real plug for getting beta readers even early on. Most authors I know who actively use beta readers are authors who are later in their career. But I think it would really behoove a first-time author to tap into that beta reader pool and understand the differences. You may love dog care, and you've done a lot of research and have a lot of experience in it, but you're not spending all your time with that community of people. You have to expand your community of people to encompass your new and expanded group of people. I think beta readers can not only help improve a book but can also help identify where that pool is.
[00:08:15] Stephanie: I agree. I love beta readers for a whole bunch of reasons. Finding that pool and asking them, what other groups do you belong to? What online groups do you participate in? That's a hugely underutilized opportunity, I feel, for writers. I happen to be a widow and I'm involved in a number of online widows’ groups. Now imagine if I ever wrote the widow memoir, right? I've been involved in these groups for years; I immediately have access to thousands of people, and I've made friends with the admins. I can say, "Hey, can I do a call for beta readers? Do you want to do a book giveaway?" Finding your community and getting engaged somehow is a huge step in creating that long game with your book marketing strategies.
[00:09:04] Matty: Yeah, I think that really paves the way to starting to understand your marketing before you launch your first book. I know a lot of writers who finish their first book, and they've kind of been working on it in isolation, whether it's fiction or nonfiction. Then they're ready to start promoting it, and they don't know where to go. But if they've been building that community, the online community, or the associations or all those things that you mentioned, then they're ahead of the game. It probably improves their book too because if they're immersing themselves in that community, it can only be a benefit to the content they're producing.
[00:09:35] Stephanie: Absolutely. Just to dovetail off the beta reader thing, right? So, I get this question a lot: how many beta readers do I have and where do I find them? Well, it depends on what your goals are with your beta readers. A lot of writers want editorial feedback on their work.
I personally really value beta readers for marketing. If you give early access to your manuscripts to a bunch of people and they like the book, they're going to be incentivized to want to share it when your book is launching. So, it's a matter of starting with your smaller circle and maybe even asking them, who do you know who would enjoy this book? Who do you know that's in this sphere, that's in this target audience that we could invite to be a beta reader? I'm of the belief that you should get lots of beta readers. Two or five or ten is a very small number, especially when it comes to getting support with the marketing. So I like to suggest lots of beta readers, and then I see all the authors kind of recoil because that means I'm giving my work away.
You can view it as creating fans, so getting the most eyeballs on your work is a great marketing strategy. Those people will go out and tell their friends about it. During my last book launch, I was pleasantly surprised by how many beta readers turned out and bought the book anyway, even though they had already read it—that was just a show of support.
So, it's those things to think about when you're starting your tribe of influence exercise and figuring out who and how many people you're going to give that early access to.
The problem is obscurity
[00:11:28] Matty: Can you give any guidelines for someone launching their first book? How many people should they be comfortable giving it out to? Maybe how that number changes over time as a person accumulates more books and more followers?
[00:11:42] Stephanie: I always think about Seth Godin. He has famously said, "Your problem is not that people are going to steal your content; your problem is obscurity." A lot of authors fear that people will steal their work and share it. When I do my beta readers and I put out a PDF, it says in there, "Feel free to send this to a friend." I want as many eyeballs as possible. I don't view that as lost sales but as a way to gain sales.
My personal feeling is the more, the merrier. I had 400 beta readers on my last book launch. You'll be lucky if 10 percent of them actually write a review and follow through. On social media that day, I saw many of them sharing. It was an incredibly valuable experience on various levels. The more, the better. The same goes for review copies sent out prior or during your book launch. I have a plan to send out physical copies to fellow influencers and people I know will support the book—leading to more sales.
[00:13:16] Matty: I'm curious what tool you use. Do you have something like BookFunnel to send those out?
[00:13:21] Stephanie: Yes, we use BookFunnel. It's a great tool, really worthwhile, helping control the process and making it easy for everybody. I'm a big fan.
[00:13:32] Matty: That's interesting. I've always thought that two to ten beta readers were not enough, but I've never thought about 400. I have a book launch coming up. I'm going to rethink that because I think that makes a lot of sense.
[00:13:46] Stephanie: Initially, I thought of having a hundred beta readers, but I had 400 applicants and didn't want to turn anybody away. I'm really glad I accepted them all.
[00:14:06] Matty: That's interesting. I think different people bring a different interpretation to beta reader. Can you describe a little bit what you're thinking of when you say beta reader and how you're using them beyond what we've already talked about?
[00:14:17] Stephanie: Yeah, so, I think a lot of people seek editorial feedback from beta readers. Let me be clear, I wouldn't want editorial feedback from 400 people. That's too many. I viewed them as my launch team, getting early access, following along with the process. Here's the release date. It was creating a community with my beta readers, not seeking editorial feedback. It depends on your goals. If you want editorial feedback, maybe 20 or 30 people in your target audience or those you trust for feedback. Then a separate group of beta readers specifically for marketing support.
The impact of release frequency
[00:15:22] Matty: Yeah, that makes sense. Do you feel as if the way you tap into your growing tribe of followers differs depending on release frequency? If someone's releasing a book a month, they'll retain interest because there's no long downtime. If someone's releasing a book every year or two, do you recommend a different approach to keep your tribe engaged?
[00:15:57] Stephanie: In my nonfiction space, authors usually release one book a year. Regardless, ongoing connection with your readers is crucial. I prefer content marketing, like blogging, creating videos, or doing a podcast. In fiction, you have to get creative to engage your audience. For example, a romance writer giving dating tips or a mystery writer getting involved in the literary scene of the book's setting.
Don't rely on the "rented real estate" of social media
[00:17:21] Stephanie: We're always looking for ways to continue connecting with potential target readers and ultimately bring them into the email list. I think we've been oversold on social media. Some people have influencer status and a really engaged social media audience. Personally, I prefer email over social media because social media is like rented real estate.
We learned this the hard way with our Twitter account for the Nonfiction Authors Association—it literally evaporated overnight, losing 70,000 followers. We never found out why, despite not violating any policies. We spent months trying to restore it, but it disappeared. However, our email list is owned content and data. Even if the email service provider goes away, we still own the content and contacts, so we can transfer them elsewhere. Be aware that putting all your eggs in the social media basket can be risky.
[00:18:37] Matty: Yeah, I think there's probably never been a time where the social media environment has made it so clear that no one should rely on it to keep in touch with anyone. Of all the advice I've ever heard, the one thing everyone agrees on is the importance of an email list. Every opportunity to emphasize that advice is great.
We've talked a bit about not leaving behind the tribe you bring into your writing life. Assuming people are moving from some other work or have built a community in another way, are there any people you should explicitly exclude? Not try to bring forward into your tribe? For example, when launching your first book, you might avoid asking your mom, neighbor, and college roommate to buy it, to prevent odd also-bought associations on Amazon. Are there other downsides to trying to bring people forward from a different community?
[00:19:54] Stephanie: I would never turn away a sale. If my mom wants to buy my book, she can. However, you have to be careful about reviews. Avoid situations where family members write glowing but unrelated reviews. When promoting, it's crucial not to target outside your ideal audience. If family members buy the book along with your target audience, it's fine. To avoid issues, focus on expanding your audience beyond people you already know. Grow your tribe of influence to include fellow authors, influencers, and podcasters in your field.
Don't waste time promoting your book to the wrong readers. I don't read some of these types of books, and I don't review books either, so spending your time and money sending books to people that aren't your target audience. Now when someone sends me a publishing industry book, I absolutely pay attention. and that may get, lead to them being interviewed on our blog or our podcast or whatever it is. So just know your audience is so critical to building that community and that marketing strategy.
[00:21:54] Matty: When someone is reaching out to someone who's one of those influencers, do you recommend, let's say they have a new non-fiction book, and they've located the pool of people who might legitimately be interested in it, do you recommend that they try to establish a relationship ahead of time, or is a book that shows up in your office about a topic that you're actually interested in, is that intriguing? Is it off-putting? What would your recommendations be on that front?
Create a reciprocal relationship
[00:22:22] Stephanie: I think you have a much better chance if it aligns. And I love to include a personal note. So, really enjoy your podcast. why haven't you written a book yet? something like that. So I don't think that's off-putting at all. What is off-putting to me as somebody who gets a ton of solicitations is the solicitation. Like, somebody sending me a message saying, hey, I have a new book out. why don't you put me on your podcast?
[00:22:50] Matty: What can you do for me?
[00:22:51] Stephanie: right, what, yeah, and it's not about my audience. Like, tell me how you serve my audience. I've had a, I got a pitch just last week from a speaker and it was all about him and how he speaks on leadership and he's a great leadership speaker and if I have a conference or event coming up, I should really contact him because he's a great speaker. He's now sent this to me twice in I don't know how he's getting booked because that had nothing to do with how he would serve our target audience.
Meanwhile, someone like Ann Janzer, I love her. She writes great books. she creates great content. So she'll come out and say, hey, I created this new, I had a great successful book promotion campaign. Would you be interested in doing a webinar on how I did it? Heck yeah, I would. That's interesting to my audience. She's a non-fiction writer. She figured out how to do this. It landed 50 more reviews on her book. So knowing your target audience and putting that value proposition in when you're pitching or when you're reaching out. podcast. or blog. Reach out and ask to interview that person before you ever try to sell them anything or give them your book or, make it something in it for them to create that reciprocal relationship.
[00:24:18] Matty: Yeah, I think that some people take the opinion that, if they send an email to a thousand podcasts, then they're going to piss off. 990 of them, but they might get 10 placements, but, I would also warn them that, you're building bad karma, and I remember, like, I have a list, and if people are spamming me with that kind of thing, even if they come back later and they have a good, I'm not even reading the pitch after a while if I know that this is somebody who's been, annoying me in the past with inappropriate, not inappropriate, but, misaligned pitches.
And I do think that anyone who's ever submitting something or pitching themselves to some, to someone or something should, have the experience of being on the other side of the pitch because I know I never fully appreciated, I was probably one of those people who would have complained about like, oh, I sent this to an agent or I said, sent this into a contest and, they didn't even like give me a review.
And having been a contest judge in several short fiction contests now, I'm like, oh, man, if you see it from the other side, you know what's going on. I think everybody should have an opportunity to be in that position every once in a while. great point.
[00:25:16] Stephanie: And following the directions of a pitch, right? Because a lot of times, podcasters have specific requests or answer these three questions, and then people don't do that. we have a call for guests for our podcast, and it's very specific. How does your, topic Help authors in some way.
And then we get pitches on like mental health and medical things and it's like, what does this have to do? how are you going to tie this into writers? Because we're not doing it for you and it's not there in your pitch.
Pursuing aspirational contacts
[00:26:05] Matty: yeah, exactly. we can all clip this out and have it as like a little, tutorial on our websites about if you want to pitch to us, here's what you should keep in mind. so we've talked about, a little bit about, bringing forward your existing tribe, how to, just a couple of ideas about how to support and cater to your, your evolving tribe.
I'm wondering if you can also talk a little bit about, like, the aspirational tribe. like, I have, so on my tickler list, Stephen King, if you're out there on my tickler list, is that someday, when I have the perfect question to ask, I'm going to get in touch with Stephen King and ask him to be on the podcast, because he seems like the kind of guy who might say, Isn't this cute? A person with a podcast! I think I'll do this just as a lark. I haven't done that yet, because I haven't come up with a question I might ask yet. But do you have recommendations for how people can identify the appropriate aspirational tribe members they want to engage and then how they should go about doing that?
[00:27:01] Stephanie: So I'm one of those people that believes you have nothing to lose from asking, right? So let's even put this in the context of getting endorsements for your book, because those can be tricky, right? But so here's how I've gotten endorsements, especially earlier on when I didn't even really have much of my own community, I Messaged a lot of big-name authors on social media and they answer their own messages.
And those pitches weren't, Oh, my first book is coming out and I'm self-publishing it and I, gosh, I would really love it. And here's what it's all about because I get those pitches too. And they're like nine paragraphs long. No, if you want to look like a pro, it's no more than two paragraphs. It's this book is coming out. I love your work. You know. Pay a compliment and I was amazed at how many well-known authors I got to endorse my books simply by contacting them through social media.
The other thing is once you start to build your platform, so I'm thinking for, we run this nonfiction writers conference every year, and back in 2010, we were doing it by teleseminar, remember when that was a thing, before we were using Zoom and all these great visuals, but I started with My Tribe of Influence, our opening speaker the very first year was Dan Pointer. He was a wonderful, mentor to a lot of us in publishing. He wrote self-publishing books and then each year as my sphere grew, I was inviting people and then I started getting really brave and inviting people I didn't know and that's how I got Julia Cameron, Anna Quinlan, Cheryl Strayed, Seth Godin, Don Miguel Ruiz, Martha Beck, Dan Millman, I just started asking.
So once you're able to show some platform as well, that also really helps. And so I tell our community, let that be your motivation, right? Your motivation for building your audience, because the fact is, the bigger your audience gets, the easier it is to get yeses from podcasts and influencers and things like that.
Matty: And I think the more you can demonstrate your professionalism, the better. Professionalism doesn't necessarily equate to experience. More experience makes professionalism easier, but it's not a necessity. Writing a pitch, and I'm trying to frame this carefully, so I'm not suggesting that you lie about your experience. Framing a pitch as if you've been on a million podcasts and you feel confident in what you have to offer without making any claims beyond what you actually have to offer.
The story, I've told this before, but I think it's such a good illustration of this. I was contacted by someone who wanted to be a guest on the podcast because he had his first nonfiction book coming out, and it would be his first interview. So he didn't have any other interviews to point me to, but he recorded an interview specifically to pitch me for the podcast. It was him talking on video for a couple of minutes about his book, very specifically to me. This wasn't a generic thing. He had created this video for me.
So I could see he knew his topic. He was comfortable on camera, all the things that I would look for in a guest. The fact that he had never been on any other podcast didn't make a difference because he had proven that he had the professionalism, even if he didn't have the experience. I think that can go a long way if you're aiming for those more aspirational connections.
Each new contact opens a network of others
Stephanie: One more tip too, like with the endorsement thing. Let's say you get your very first big-name one because this is how I did it, right? So when I sent my pitch, I'll say, "You'll be in good company because here's what Michael Gerber had to say about the book." And then this influencer goes, "Oh wow, she got Michael Gerber. I totally need to do this." So leverage your tribe, especially if you can get an introduction. With fellow authors, we know people, right? Can someone introduce you to a well-known person that you can then get your first endorsement and then show that to others? So you're right, all that professionalism really does help.
Matty: I think in any of those, like I was thinking back to the social media message in order to get a blurb. I think a sort of, nothing's foolproof but saying, "I think that this book would appeal to the people who follow you because ...” If you can fill that in, you're halfway there. Because you're illustrating that you're serving yourself, but your intent is to serve the people that the person you're contacting wants to serve too, their own followers, and that you're looking out for them, you're not looking out for yourself."
And that's certainly true for podcast pitches. I'm sure you've found this. If somebody says, "Here's a topic that I think will be especially meaningful to the people who listen to your podcast," then your ears prick up.
Stephanie: I wish I could remember the author's name, but she had written a real-life memoir based on a story that Judy Blume had written about. Judy Blume is one of my favorite childhood authors, but she wrote a number of adult books. So she had written a book about this actual story that happened to this woman who wrote her memoir. Well, she reached out to Judy Blume, and guess what? Judy Blume asked for the book. She wrote about it on social media. I mean, they actually created a connection over that. Somebody that is such a major, beloved author, and she created that connection. So you're absolutely right. Don't be afraid to reach out. That's what I say. It all starts to kind of create this snowball effect.
[00:32:55] Matty: Well, there can't be a better story than that to end our conversation about expanding one's tribe of influence. Stephanie, thank you so much. I appreciate you entertaining my wide-ranging questions about tapping into one's tribe of influence. Please let everyone know where they can go to find out more about you and everything you do online.
[00:33:12] Stephanie: Yeah, thank you. Check us out, NonfictionAuthorsAssociation.com. We have a huge community of active writers at all stages in the process. We have our upcoming Nonfiction Writers Conference. That's also NonfictionWritersConference.com. Then I have a new book launching in January, the Nonfiction Book Marketing and Launch Plan. It's actually an eight and a half by eleven workbook, book, and planning guide, 250 plus pages. It's not full of blank pages. It's a really, really meaty. It's my favorite thing I've done so far. So I'm looking forward to that and appreciate you having me here today.
[00:33:49] Matty: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you so much.
[00:00:06] Stephanie: Hey Matty, I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.
Meet Stephanie Chandler
[00:00:08] Matty: It is my pleasure to give our listeners and viewers a little bit of background on you. Stephanie Chandler is the author of several books, including the Nonfiction Book Publishing Plan. She is the CEO of the Nonfiction Authors Association, a vibrant community for writers, and the Nonfiction Writers Conference, a live event conducted entirely online since 2010. A frequent speaker at business events and on the radio, she has been featured in Entrepreneur, Business Week, Writer's Digest, and Wired Magazine.
The Power of Tapping into Your Existing Tribe
[00:00:33] Matty: And I invited Stephanie on the podcast because I heard her speaking on the idea of leveraging your existing tribe of influence. Listeners to the podcast know that we often discuss what you can do once you've identified the group of people you want to reach out to. What I really like is Stephanie's perspective that you probably have a bigger tribe than you already realize and that you're not starting from zero. You already have a pool of people to tap into. So, Stephanie, I'm really just going to open it up with that introduction, and we'll see where the conversation takes us in terms of realizing who your tribe already is.
[00:01:12] Stephanie: Great, I love that. So yeah, this is something that I do every time I launch a new book. I'm going through it right now. I have a book coming out in January, so I will sit down and think about who do I know, and maybe people I haven't connected with in some time. You and I are busy people, and we have lots of friends in the industry. I make a long list of people that I know, and I go through my emails. I look through my social media contacts because we forget when we lose touch with people.
Another thing I'd like to recommend to authors is beyond your own industry. Who do you know in your own circle? This could be people you went to school with, former coworkers, neighbors, people that you coached your kid's soccer team with 10 years ago. Let me just say that these people who have been friends or acquaintances in your life, when you have a book coming out, that's really exciting, especially to people who haven't written a book. Letting them know that this is happening, they want to support you, they want you to be successful.
I think about how I come from Silicon Valley, and if I wrote technology books, you can bet I would be reaching out to all my former coworkers who are now at 25 different software companies. They've moved on in the last 20 years, but I'd be reaching out and saying, "Hey, do you want to buy books to give away to your staff? Do you want to buy books to give to your customers? Can you bring me in to do a speaking engagement? Can you put me on your podcast? Can I contribute to your blog or your company magazine?" That's the point of this exercise—spend some time digging into who you know and how they might be able to help you successfully launch and promote your book.
[00:03:07] Matty: Yeah, I know that when I left the corporate world after a couple of decades, I had hundreds and hundreds of LinkedIn contacts. There was a period of time where I wasn't tapping into them at all because I just thought, oh, well, that's from a different life, and they don't need to know what I'm doing now. But, I changed my mind about that for all the reasons that you just said.
The downside of writers selling to writers
[00:03:25] Matty: And I think the other thing that's really interesting is that I realized during a book launch or two ago, I was comparing the book launch, which was just like, hey, everybody, I have a new book. It was the world's most pathetic book launch. When I think back to my earlier book launches, I would have a happy hour at a local bar and do it up more. I realized that part of that is when I was launching my early books, my pool of acquaintances were all non-writers. So, as you were saying, if you write a book, it's big news with that group of people. Whereas now, my pool of acquaintances is mainly writers, and if you say, "Oh, I'm launching a book," we're like, big whoop because, they all launched a book, like, yesterday.
[00:04:36] Stephanie: One of my pet peeves is writers trying to sell to writers. Whenever I go to speak at a local writers’ group or a writers’ conference, writers are constantly trying to sell. That is just missing the point to me. With marketing, you really want to know your target audience and explain what's in it for them to read your book.
So when you're promoting your book to fellow writers, unless we read the same genre, to me, that is not your best use of your time. Then there's that crossover between those people. Like I said, my former coworkers are in Silicon Valley. I write books for writing, nonfiction publishing, and marketing. Most of them probably aren't interested in that, so they're not my main tribe. I'm focusing on people who can potentially support the book in some way, are interested in the book.
One coworker comes to mind who now works at Google. Google has a speaker series. So guess what? I will be reaching out to him because, there's that old statistic that we don't know where it came from, but it says that 80 percent of people want to write a book. So that's always something I could lean on for that.
Expanding past your initial tribe
[00:05:33] Matty: I think that writers early in their careers, when you launch your first book, chances are you're going to sell it to your mom, your neighbor, and your college roommate. I think there's also a transition to understanding that your tribe changes from the people who know and like you to the people who want to buy your book because they are interested in your book's topic and the genre. Maybe you don't want to keep hammering that initial tribe if you've graduated past mom, your neighbor, and the person you went to school with. Is that a mindset shift about understanding the tribe?
[00:06:13] Stephanie: Well, yeah, and expanding your reach, right? I think this is maybe somewhere that authors struggle because you've got your initial community of people that know and love you. But then what happens after that? So how do you keep your momentum? Because book marketing isn't about the first 30 days. It's about the next five years. So you want to create that long game strategy, which means growing your tribe of influence. It means finding your target audience. Where are they spending time? How can you connect with them?
I'm a huge believer in building your own email list, getting involved. For example, does your target audience participate in any trade associations? If so, can you go and participate in those trade associations? Maybe you write books about dog care. There are lots of associations for dog lovers, dog owners, and dog trainers. So what events do they have that you could participate in, or could you write for their blog or their newsletter?
Can you get involved and get to know them? And who else is influential in that space? How can you connect with them? So yeah, there's definitely that next step where you're expanding out from your smaller circle to try to create bigger circles.
The value of beta readers for marketing
[00:07:36] Matty: I think that's a real plug for getting beta readers even early on. Most authors I know who actively use beta readers are authors who are later in their career. But I think it would really behoove a first-time author to tap into that beta reader pool and understand the differences. You may love dog care, and you've done a lot of research and have a lot of experience in it, but you're not spending all your time with that community of people. You have to expand your community of people to encompass your new and expanded group of people. I think beta readers can not only help improve a book but can also help identify where that pool is.
[00:08:15] Stephanie: I agree. I love beta readers for a whole bunch of reasons. Finding that pool and asking them, what other groups do you belong to? What online groups do you participate in? That's a hugely underutilized opportunity, I feel, for writers. I happen to be a widow and I'm involved in a number of online widows’ groups. Now imagine if I ever wrote the widow memoir, right? I've been involved in these groups for years; I immediately have access to thousands of people, and I've made friends with the admins. I can say, "Hey, can I do a call for beta readers? Do you want to do a book giveaway?" Finding your community and getting engaged somehow is a huge step in creating that long game with your book marketing strategies.
[00:09:04] Matty: Yeah, I think that really paves the way to starting to understand your marketing before you launch your first book. I know a lot of writers who finish their first book, and they've kind of been working on it in isolation, whether it's fiction or nonfiction. Then they're ready to start promoting it, and they don't know where to go. But if they've been building that community, the online community, or the associations or all those things that you mentioned, then they're ahead of the game. It probably improves their book too because if they're immersing themselves in that community, it can only be a benefit to the content they're producing.
[00:09:35] Stephanie: Absolutely. Just to dovetail off the beta reader thing, right? So, I get this question a lot: how many beta readers do I have and where do I find them? Well, it depends on what your goals are with your beta readers. A lot of writers want editorial feedback on their work.
I personally really value beta readers for marketing. If you give early access to your manuscripts to a bunch of people and they like the book, they're going to be incentivized to want to share it when your book is launching. So, it's a matter of starting with your smaller circle and maybe even asking them, who do you know who would enjoy this book? Who do you know that's in this sphere, that's in this target audience that we could invite to be a beta reader? I'm of the belief that you should get lots of beta readers. Two or five or ten is a very small number, especially when it comes to getting support with the marketing. So I like to suggest lots of beta readers, and then I see all the authors kind of recoil because that means I'm giving my work away.
You can view it as creating fans, so getting the most eyeballs on your work is a great marketing strategy. Those people will go out and tell their friends about it. During my last book launch, I was pleasantly surprised by how many beta readers turned out and bought the book anyway, even though they had already read it—that was just a show of support.
So, it's those things to think about when you're starting your tribe of influence exercise and figuring out who and how many people you're going to give that early access to.
The problem is obscurity
[00:11:28] Matty: Can you give any guidelines for someone launching their first book? How many people should they be comfortable giving it out to? Maybe how that number changes over time as a person accumulates more books and more followers?
[00:11:42] Stephanie: I always think about Seth Godin. He has famously said, "Your problem is not that people are going to steal your content; your problem is obscurity." A lot of authors fear that people will steal their work and share it. When I do my beta readers and I put out a PDF, it says in there, "Feel free to send this to a friend." I want as many eyeballs as possible. I don't view that as lost sales but as a way to gain sales.
My personal feeling is the more, the merrier. I had 400 beta readers on my last book launch. You'll be lucky if 10 percent of them actually write a review and follow through. On social media that day, I saw many of them sharing. It was an incredibly valuable experience on various levels. The more, the better. The same goes for review copies sent out prior or during your book launch. I have a plan to send out physical copies to fellow influencers and people I know will support the book—leading to more sales.
[00:13:16] Matty: I'm curious what tool you use. Do you have something like BookFunnel to send those out?
[00:13:21] Stephanie: Yes, we use BookFunnel. It's a great tool, really worthwhile, helping control the process and making it easy for everybody. I'm a big fan.
[00:13:32] Matty: That's interesting. I've always thought that two to ten beta readers were not enough, but I've never thought about 400. I have a book launch coming up. I'm going to rethink that because I think that makes a lot of sense.
[00:13:46] Stephanie: Initially, I thought of having a hundred beta readers, but I had 400 applicants and didn't want to turn anybody away. I'm really glad I accepted them all.
[00:14:06] Matty: That's interesting. I think different people bring a different interpretation to beta reader. Can you describe a little bit what you're thinking of when you say beta reader and how you're using them beyond what we've already talked about?
[00:14:17] Stephanie: Yeah, so, I think a lot of people seek editorial feedback from beta readers. Let me be clear, I wouldn't want editorial feedback from 400 people. That's too many. I viewed them as my launch team, getting early access, following along with the process. Here's the release date. It was creating a community with my beta readers, not seeking editorial feedback. It depends on your goals. If you want editorial feedback, maybe 20 or 30 people in your target audience or those you trust for feedback. Then a separate group of beta readers specifically for marketing support.
The impact of release frequency
[00:15:22] Matty: Yeah, that makes sense. Do you feel as if the way you tap into your growing tribe of followers differs depending on release frequency? If someone's releasing a book a month, they'll retain interest because there's no long downtime. If someone's releasing a book every year or two, do you recommend a different approach to keep your tribe engaged?
[00:15:57] Stephanie: In my nonfiction space, authors usually release one book a year. Regardless, ongoing connection with your readers is crucial. I prefer content marketing, like blogging, creating videos, or doing a podcast. In fiction, you have to get creative to engage your audience. For example, a romance writer giving dating tips or a mystery writer getting involved in the literary scene of the book's setting.
Don't rely on the "rented real estate" of social media
[00:17:21] Stephanie: We're always looking for ways to continue connecting with potential target readers and ultimately bring them into the email list. I think we've been oversold on social media. Some people have influencer status and a really engaged social media audience. Personally, I prefer email over social media because social media is like rented real estate.
We learned this the hard way with our Twitter account for the Nonfiction Authors Association—it literally evaporated overnight, losing 70,000 followers. We never found out why, despite not violating any policies. We spent months trying to restore it, but it disappeared. However, our email list is owned content and data. Even if the email service provider goes away, we still own the content and contacts, so we can transfer them elsewhere. Be aware that putting all your eggs in the social media basket can be risky.
[00:18:37] Matty: Yeah, I think there's probably never been a time where the social media environment has made it so clear that no one should rely on it to keep in touch with anyone. Of all the advice I've ever heard, the one thing everyone agrees on is the importance of an email list. Every opportunity to emphasize that advice is great.
We've talked a bit about not leaving behind the tribe you bring into your writing life. Assuming people are moving from some other work or have built a community in another way, are there any people you should explicitly exclude? Not try to bring forward into your tribe? For example, when launching your first book, you might avoid asking your mom, neighbor, and college roommate to buy it, to prevent odd also-bought associations on Amazon. Are there other downsides to trying to bring people forward from a different community?
[00:19:54] Stephanie: I would never turn away a sale. If my mom wants to buy my book, she can. However, you have to be careful about reviews. Avoid situations where family members write glowing but unrelated reviews. When promoting, it's crucial not to target outside your ideal audience. If family members buy the book along with your target audience, it's fine. To avoid issues, focus on expanding your audience beyond people you already know. Grow your tribe of influence to include fellow authors, influencers, and podcasters in your field.
Don't waste time promoting your book to the wrong readers. I don't read some of these types of books, and I don't review books either, so spending your time and money sending books to people that aren't your target audience. Now when someone sends me a publishing industry book, I absolutely pay attention. and that may get, lead to them being interviewed on our blog or our podcast or whatever it is. So just know your audience is so critical to building that community and that marketing strategy.
[00:21:54] Matty: When someone is reaching out to someone who's one of those influencers, do you recommend, let's say they have a new non-fiction book, and they've located the pool of people who might legitimately be interested in it, do you recommend that they try to establish a relationship ahead of time, or is a book that shows up in your office about a topic that you're actually interested in, is that intriguing? Is it off-putting? What would your recommendations be on that front?
Create a reciprocal relationship
[00:22:22] Stephanie: I think you have a much better chance if it aligns. And I love to include a personal note. So, really enjoy your podcast. why haven't you written a book yet? something like that. So I don't think that's off-putting at all. What is off-putting to me as somebody who gets a ton of solicitations is the solicitation. Like, somebody sending me a message saying, hey, I have a new book out. why don't you put me on your podcast?
[00:22:50] Matty: What can you do for me?
[00:22:51] Stephanie: right, what, yeah, and it's not about my audience. Like, tell me how you serve my audience. I've had a, I got a pitch just last week from a speaker and it was all about him and how he speaks on leadership and he's a great leadership speaker and if I have a conference or event coming up, I should really contact him because he's a great speaker. He's now sent this to me twice in I don't know how he's getting booked because that had nothing to do with how he would serve our target audience.
Meanwhile, someone like Ann Janzer, I love her. She writes great books. she creates great content. So she'll come out and say, hey, I created this new, I had a great successful book promotion campaign. Would you be interested in doing a webinar on how I did it? Heck yeah, I would. That's interesting to my audience. She's a non-fiction writer. She figured out how to do this. It landed 50 more reviews on her book. So knowing your target audience and putting that value proposition in when you're pitching or when you're reaching out. podcast. or blog. Reach out and ask to interview that person before you ever try to sell them anything or give them your book or, make it something in it for them to create that reciprocal relationship.
[00:24:18] Matty: Yeah, I think that some people take the opinion that, if they send an email to a thousand podcasts, then they're going to piss off. 990 of them, but they might get 10 placements, but, I would also warn them that, you're building bad karma, and I remember, like, I have a list, and if people are spamming me with that kind of thing, even if they come back later and they have a good, I'm not even reading the pitch after a while if I know that this is somebody who's been, annoying me in the past with inappropriate, not inappropriate, but, misaligned pitches.
And I do think that anyone who's ever submitting something or pitching themselves to some, to someone or something should, have the experience of being on the other side of the pitch because I know I never fully appreciated, I was probably one of those people who would have complained about like, oh, I sent this to an agent or I said, sent this into a contest and, they didn't even like give me a review.
And having been a contest judge in several short fiction contests now, I'm like, oh, man, if you see it from the other side, you know what's going on. I think everybody should have an opportunity to be in that position every once in a while. great point.
[00:25:16] Stephanie: And following the directions of a pitch, right? Because a lot of times, podcasters have specific requests or answer these three questions, and then people don't do that. we have a call for guests for our podcast, and it's very specific. How does your, topic Help authors in some way.
And then we get pitches on like mental health and medical things and it's like, what does this have to do? how are you going to tie this into writers? Because we're not doing it for you and it's not there in your pitch.
Pursuing aspirational contacts
[00:26:05] Matty: yeah, exactly. we can all clip this out and have it as like a little, tutorial on our websites about if you want to pitch to us, here's what you should keep in mind. so we've talked about, a little bit about, bringing forward your existing tribe, how to, just a couple of ideas about how to support and cater to your, your evolving tribe.
I'm wondering if you can also talk a little bit about, like, the aspirational tribe. like, I have, so on my tickler list, Stephen King, if you're out there on my tickler list, is that someday, when I have the perfect question to ask, I'm going to get in touch with Stephen King and ask him to be on the podcast, because he seems like the kind of guy who might say, Isn't this cute? A person with a podcast! I think I'll do this just as a lark. I haven't done that yet, because I haven't come up with a question I might ask yet. But do you have recommendations for how people can identify the appropriate aspirational tribe members they want to engage and then how they should go about doing that?
[00:27:01] Stephanie: So I'm one of those people that believes you have nothing to lose from asking, right? So let's even put this in the context of getting endorsements for your book, because those can be tricky, right? But so here's how I've gotten endorsements, especially earlier on when I didn't even really have much of my own community, I Messaged a lot of big-name authors on social media and they answer their own messages.
And those pitches weren't, Oh, my first book is coming out and I'm self-publishing it and I, gosh, I would really love it. And here's what it's all about because I get those pitches too. And they're like nine paragraphs long. No, if you want to look like a pro, it's no more than two paragraphs. It's this book is coming out. I love your work. You know. Pay a compliment and I was amazed at how many well-known authors I got to endorse my books simply by contacting them through social media.
The other thing is once you start to build your platform, so I'm thinking for, we run this nonfiction writers conference every year, and back in 2010, we were doing it by teleseminar, remember when that was a thing, before we were using Zoom and all these great visuals, but I started with My Tribe of Influence, our opening speaker the very first year was Dan Pointer. He was a wonderful, mentor to a lot of us in publishing. He wrote self-publishing books and then each year as my sphere grew, I was inviting people and then I started getting really brave and inviting people I didn't know and that's how I got Julia Cameron, Anna Quinlan, Cheryl Strayed, Seth Godin, Don Miguel Ruiz, Martha Beck, Dan Millman, I just started asking.
So once you're able to show some platform as well, that also really helps. And so I tell our community, let that be your motivation, right? Your motivation for building your audience, because the fact is, the bigger your audience gets, the easier it is to get yeses from podcasts and influencers and things like that.
Matty: And I think the more you can demonstrate your professionalism, the better. Professionalism doesn't necessarily equate to experience. More experience makes professionalism easier, but it's not a necessity. Writing a pitch, and I'm trying to frame this carefully, so I'm not suggesting that you lie about your experience. Framing a pitch as if you've been on a million podcasts and you feel confident in what you have to offer without making any claims beyond what you actually have to offer.
The story, I've told this before, but I think it's such a good illustration of this. I was contacted by someone who wanted to be a guest on the podcast because he had his first nonfiction book coming out, and it would be his first interview. So he didn't have any other interviews to point me to, but he recorded an interview specifically to pitch me for the podcast. It was him talking on video for a couple of minutes about his book, very specifically to me. This wasn't a generic thing. He had created this video for me.
So I could see he knew his topic. He was comfortable on camera, all the things that I would look for in a guest. The fact that he had never been on any other podcast didn't make a difference because he had proven that he had the professionalism, even if he didn't have the experience. I think that can go a long way if you're aiming for those more aspirational connections.
Each new contact opens a network of others
Stephanie: One more tip too, like with the endorsement thing. Let's say you get your very first big-name one because this is how I did it, right? So when I sent my pitch, I'll say, "You'll be in good company because here's what Michael Gerber had to say about the book." And then this influencer goes, "Oh wow, she got Michael Gerber. I totally need to do this." So leverage your tribe, especially if you can get an introduction. With fellow authors, we know people, right? Can someone introduce you to a well-known person that you can then get your first endorsement and then show that to others? So you're right, all that professionalism really does help.
Matty: I think in any of those, like I was thinking back to the social media message in order to get a blurb. I think a sort of, nothing's foolproof but saying, "I think that this book would appeal to the people who follow you because ...” If you can fill that in, you're halfway there. Because you're illustrating that you're serving yourself, but your intent is to serve the people that the person you're contacting wants to serve too, their own followers, and that you're looking out for them, you're not looking out for yourself."
And that's certainly true for podcast pitches. I'm sure you've found this. If somebody says, "Here's a topic that I think will be especially meaningful to the people who listen to your podcast," then your ears prick up.
Stephanie: I wish I could remember the author's name, but she had written a real-life memoir based on a story that Judy Blume had written about. Judy Blume is one of my favorite childhood authors, but she wrote a number of adult books. So she had written a book about this actual story that happened to this woman who wrote her memoir. Well, she reached out to Judy Blume, and guess what? Judy Blume asked for the book. She wrote about it on social media. I mean, they actually created a connection over that. Somebody that is such a major, beloved author, and she created that connection. So you're absolutely right. Don't be afraid to reach out. That's what I say. It all starts to kind of create this snowball effect.
[00:32:55] Matty: Well, there can't be a better story than that to end our conversation about expanding one's tribe of influence. Stephanie, thank you so much. I appreciate you entertaining my wide-ranging questions about tapping into one's tribe of influence. Please let everyone know where they can go to find out more about you and everything you do online.
[00:33:12] Stephanie: Yeah, thank you. Check us out, NonfictionAuthorsAssociation.com. We have a huge community of active writers at all stages in the process. We have our upcoming Nonfiction Writers Conference. That's also NonfictionWritersConference.com. Then I have a new book launching in January, the Nonfiction Book Marketing and Launch Plan. It's actually an eight and a half by eleven workbook, book, and planning guide, 250 plus pages. It's not full of blank pages. It's a really, really meaty. It's my favorite thing I've done so far. So I'm looking forward to that and appreciate you having me here today.
[00:33:49] Matty: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you so much.
