Episode 154 - From Screenplay to Novel and Back with Tammy Gross
October 4, 2022
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I talk with Tammy Gross about going FROM SCREENPLAY TO NOVEL AND BACK, including the benefits of the screenplay format; not aiming for perfection; capitalizing on contest submissions; the virtuous cycle between screenplay and novel; and how you can start with a screenplay and expand to a novel (and vice versa).
Do any of those topics pique your interest? Check out 2 MINUTES OF INDY, where over the week following the airing of the episode, you'll find brief video clips from the interview on each of those topics. You can also catch up on some highlights of previous episodes there. |
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Since 2008, Tammy Gross, the Scriptpreneur, has been editing & doctoring screenplays for writers of all skill levels. With Tammy's help, Shia LaBeouf's autobiographical script was transformed into the compelling story that is now the award-winning film, HONEY BOY. Her own screenplay-turned-novel became a bestseller through her Reel Novels imprint, and it is slated for late 2022 film production by an A-List TV producer.
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"Because we have so many different ways to stream out that story that you can see <writing screenplays> as both something that helps you stay structured as well as gives you freedom to do whatever you want and tell the story in a way that is best for the story and for the characters." —Tammy Gross
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Links
Tammy's Links:
https://www.scriptpreneur.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRNl3cOdT9j4rRyZRcjxi_g
https://www.facebook.com/Scriptpreneur/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/tammygross/
https://twitter.com/scriptpreneur1
https://www.pinterest.com/grossmusic/
https://www.instagram.com/scriptpreneur/
https://feeds.captivate.fm/reel-life-stories/
Matty's Links:
Affiliate links
Events
https://www.scriptpreneur.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRNl3cOdT9j4rRyZRcjxi_g
https://www.facebook.com/Scriptpreneur/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/tammygross/
https://twitter.com/scriptpreneur1
https://www.pinterest.com/grossmusic/
https://www.instagram.com/scriptpreneur/
https://feeds.captivate.fm/reel-life-stories/
Matty's Links:
Affiliate links
Events
You can find the transcript of my intro update on my challenges with Amazon's take-down of my first Lizzy Ballard Thriller Rock Paper Scissors here.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Matty: Hello and welcome to The Indy Author Podcast. Today my guest is Tammy Gross. Hey, Tammy, how are you doing?
[00:00:05] Tammy: Hi there. I am good.
[00:00:08] Matty: To give our listeners and viewers a little bit of background on you, since 2008, Tammy Gross, the Scriptpreneur, has been editing and doctoring screenplays for writers of all levels. With Tammy's help Shia LaBeouf's autobiographical script was transformed into the compelling story that is now the award-winning film, "Honey Boy." Her own screenplay turned novel became a bestseller through her Reel Novels imprint, and it is slated for late 2022 film production by an A-list TV producer.
And so we're going to be talking about from screenplay to novel and back again. So, I wanted to start right out asking, Tammy, if you can describe a little bit about your own experience in this with your own work, because I think that'll be a good context for some questions that I think our listeners and viewers will have.
[00:00:53] Tammy: Yeah. You know, I started out, a long time ago wanting to write books at some point. I had a cousin who was a writer. And I read her books because they were written for children. It was called Suki and the Peacock, her name was Joyce Blackburn. But she was a second cousin and I had never met her in real life, but I just idolized her. And I knew that, creativity things were in my future. I was either going to sing or I was going to write or both or whatever. Somewhere along the way, it was decided as a family almost, that I would sing while I was young, and then I would write when I'm old and have some kind of life experience.
And apparently in 2008 ish, I found out about some female pirates that lived 300 years ago, and I turned old, apparently, because I stopped singing. I had had a long career in music, and I was on a break from singing. But when I discovered about them, I just wanted to write their screenplay. I'm like, I had never heard about these lady pirates that lived 300 years ago. And I'm like, why have I never seen a movie?
Why have I never read a book? Why don't I know about them? And so I just embarked on a new adventure and started researching them, literally went all around the world and started learning about their story, wanting to tell it and trying to figure out how to tell it. But then also realizing I have no idea how to write a screenplay. I don't know anything about writing screenplays.
So I worked on learning that, and I kind of entered Hollywood through the back door, I guess you could say, because I started some writing groups and was learning, and really was finding myself helping others more than I was helping myself, because I had always been an editor of some sort throughout my entire adult life. I was always the person that people would scream across the room saying, how do you spell whatever, you know? And I would scream it back to them. And then I would be on the editorial staff when I was in corporate and there were newsletters and things like that.
So I just always found myself in some kind of an editorial position, no matter what my real major position was. And that got me into the world of screenwriting. And I just had to tell stories, but I also loved helping other people do it and do it well, as well.
Deciding to Capture a Story in a Screenplay
[00:03:04] Matty: So what made you decide to capture that story as a screenplay rather than the book that your family expected you to be writing?
[00:03:12] Tammy: I don't know. My sister was the actual pirate fan. That's why we were in a pirate museum. And when I found out about this, I was kind of in a swashbuckling mood, I guess, because all I could think was this needs to be a movie. I could just, I literally, I kept looking into the sky, like, why am I not seeing the movie in front of me? Why don't I have more information that this has been a movie? So it just had to be a movie that's the way I was picturing it. And that's what kind of got me hooked.
[00:03:37] Matty: I've talked a couple of times in past podcast episodes about the fact that for most of my novels, there's a scene that I see playing out very clearly in my mind, like a movie, but I've never really pursued a screenplay. Do you think that there are tips if a person has in mind a story, they haven't committed it to actual virtual paper yet, and they're making that decision about whether they should initially capture it as a novel or as a screenplay.
The Benefits of the Screenplay Format
[00:04:05] Tammy: That is such a great question because I am probably the only person that I ever hear saying this, but I think it behooves every writer to learn how to write a screenplay, but not necessarily to write the screenplay, but certainly learn how to. Because that cinematic thinking is going to inform how you can tell the story very well and very efficiently on paper. Of course, for many writers, myself included when I'm in that mode of prose, it's all about the prose. It's all about the word. It's all about the phrasing.
And so it's not that you want to push that aside, but the simple answer to that question is write the screenplay first and then write the novel, because you have very limited things, you have parameters that are set around your story when you write in a screenplay. It's going to be 120 pages or less in a very specific kind of format. So that usually means 20,000 words or less. It makes you be efficient in your storytelling.
[00:05:15] Tammy: And you can even use screenplay as being your outlining for the novel itself, because you're not worried about how you're putting it on the page for the most part. You are because the reader is going to be your ultimate audience, when you first start putting a screenplay out there. But if you're doing for the fact that you want to have really efficient storytelling, and if you're thinking cinematically and, yeah, nowadays it's good to think about that, that maybe it will become a movie someday. It's great to put it in that format because it gives you an outline, it gives you those parameters that makes you fit it in. It makes you cut out the fat as you're writing, or it lets you write it, but then you find a way to cut it out so that it fits in the end into that 120-page structure.
It helps you with story structure. It helps you with efficiency of word. It helps you with efficiency of story. And then you can blossom it out and turn it into a novel. So whether you are ever going to turn it into an actual movie or make any pursuits or anything, I would say, start with the screenplay.
And that means learning screenplay format, which is much more simple than most people make it. There are some professional screenwriters who if they go out and they try to teach it, they make it really complicated and really scary, but it's really actually kind of freeing at how simple it really is. So that is where I would start right there. Just start with the screenplay, start with learning a little bit about the format, and then branch out.
Because like you, most people do have some kind of a cinematic image, what we call set pieces. So the thing that you think is going to be like, that's going to be in the trailer, you know, for my movie. And what are we doing these days? We're doing trailers for our books, too. So that's going to be in the trailer for my book.
And so that's a great way to start thinking. It also gets you into the creative mode because you're already thinking in pictures so that when you do start concentrating on how you're going to tell it and what your words are going to be, you're already flowing into an image, more than just making the words pretty on the page. Which a lot of writers don't realize that's what they're doing, but they love the sound of their words. That's why we're writing. So you give your yourself permission to do what you love but do it in a way that is going to work for the reader.
What to Include and Exclude in a Screenplay
[00:07:35] Matty: When someone is just starting out on a screenplay, I think most people have probably seen pages of a screenplay for well-known movies or something like that. And I picture the name of the character and then the dialogue they say and some right high level, you know, then they cross the stage and look out the window or whatever. Is that how you start out when you're starting out to craft a screenplay? What are you including and what are you explicitly excluding from that?
[00:08:00] Tammy: Well, what you're excluding is a lot of description that, I mean, not all of description, but a lot of the description that we love to use in prose to really set the scene and to bring us inward. And it's like all the thoughts and feelings that a character is having. In a screenplay, you're doing away with that by showing what's happening on the inside through what's happening on the outside, because you can only put on a film or on a screen, you can only put what we see and what we hear. And so it's so simple that that's where it gets into writer's heads.
But if you start out with that attitude, it helps a lot actually, because you know that you have all those thoughts and feelings and you want to put them in there and you want to help the reader feel what the character's feeling. But if you can master that through visuals, then when you expand it and you put it into the prose that will become the book, it's more magical because you've already set that tone for the reader because you're just already automatically giving those visuals that bring you inward.
The Four Components of a Screenplay
[00:09:08] Tammy: And I know that sounds, see, I'm making it sound complicated, but I'll tell you to simply answer that really all you need to know are four things. You just need to know where it's happening and that's the scene heading. So it's about location.
And then the next thing you need is the description, which is also the action. So I call it the narrative. Again, I'm making it complicated, right? if you get software, it's going to say scene heading and it's going to say action. And then it's going to say character, which is oversimplification, I call it character slug. In other words, the character's name is like an element that you always have to have before you have dialogue. And then dialogue is the fourth element. So scene heading, action, character, and dialog. That's all you need to write a screenplay.
That's all you need to write a book as well, really, but we always complicate it. And there are other elements you can add in there, that can, or can't work, but most screenplays work best when they have just those four elements and they don't get too fancy with too many, you know, you don't need on camera directions. The narrative kind of drives that. The action drives all those cool things that you want the director to do, but really, you're just helping the reader direct it in their own head.
So that's what keeps it simple is if you keep those four elements. And that's all you need to write is you just write the bare necessities. If the opening scene is taking place in a bar, all you need to know is if the bar is full or if it's a honkytonk type thing, or if it's a classy bar. You just need like the basic things. You don't need to know what every single person in the room is doing, and what music is playing on the jukebox if there is one. You don't need to know all that stuff. You feel what's happening, because we all have our imaginations that will fill in those blanks.
And even on a screenplay, the same thing. You're not the director. You're the storyteller. And you just have to stay in storytelling mode, even if there's a director hiding inside of you, which I think there is probably in all of us or we wouldn't be writing.
[00:11:09] Matty: Do you feel as if the fact that you separate out the director aspect when you're writing a screenplay is a positive for writers? Like, does it keep them from doing something that would be counterproductive, at least in those early stages of their drafting process?
[00:11:23] Tammy: Yes, I think it's something that it's like anything where you get good at it over time. There are some prodigies in every area of life that, that can just sit down, and they can just figure it all out and do it really well the first time, even if they're breaking all the rules, but most of us are not that person and we really need to practice. And so that's one of the things that it's like a muscle that you exercise when you write a screenplay.
That's why it took me a little while to get certain things. I had to go through some training and also just make a lot of mistakes along the way. I had to do a few mistakes along the way in order to make it really become a second nature to know that my director belongs in the prose. I can start directing things once I am outside of the script situation. Because in the script you're the storyteller. You're setting the visuals, but you're creating a story that three different directors could make it look totally different and feel totally different. And yet they can't change the story unless they change the script.
And so you have control over where the story goes, how the story goes, and who the characters are and how they get from where their starting point is to their ending point. You're the person in control of that. And that's the difference between your job and the director's job, but you can be both, because you can then write the book and you can have at it, you can do whatever you want with it then.
So some of the things you're saying about, Author as director, author as screenwriter, and so on, I want to point listeners to Episode 128, which was Lessons from Filmmaking for the Indy Author with John Gaspard. So this will be a good companion discussion to that.
[00:13:02] Matty: You had mentioned character slug as one of the four components that you would start every scene or chapter or screenplay with. Can you describe, let's say it's a Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, does it just say "Dorothy" or does it give a little bit of information about her?
[00:13:19] Tammy: Nope, all of the information is taken care of in the action. and I will just keep using the word action just to keep it simple. In case somebody does want to explore this, you get Final Draft, or you get Movie Magic, Screenwriter, or you get Celtx, or there's a couple of other screen screenplay software that you can get. And almost all of them are going to, like I said, have scene heading, action, character, dialog. Plus all the other little others that you could add in. And in the action is where you take care of any details that we need to see or hear that are not dialogue or not location.
And even in location, you can expand on location, because you can say in the scene heading, Blue Star Motel. And that's all you need in your scene heading besides little technical things that you don't have to worry about right now. And then in the action you would have, this is a rundown sleazy motel from the fifties, and it has the lights out or something. You don't want to go too far again in that description. But if you really want to set the mood of, like this is a sleazy, bad, those red-light district or something, you would use those kinds of phrases to just shortcut to get us knowing what it is.
And same thing with the character. When they first appear, now I'm going to get a little deeper into how you do the format, but when they first appear, they are all caps in a screen play. And that just shows that this is the first time we've ever seen them on screen. And so this is their on-screen appearance. And so you would put their name, DOROTHY, in all caps. Do we know her last name?
[00:14:57] Tammy: Dorothy Gale. It is Dorothy Gale. You're right. I was going to say, I know we know it. Okay. So you would put DOROTHY GALE in all caps because that is informing the cast list.
So there's reasons for why you do certain things that are technical in a screenplay. And that's when it starts getting a little complicated, because then you feel like you have to know everything about screenplays, but you really don't. Some of the basics you can mess up on some of that stuff. The main thing is getting the storytelling and getting it cinematic if you ever show this screenplay to somebody else. But for yourself, you don't even have to worry about that. But it is interesting that when there are technical things, it's because there's still a reason for it.
And then you would describe her. You would know how old she is. You would know the color of her hair, if that's important, only what's important. Cause just like in a book you want to leave it to the imagination.
It's About the Essence of the Character
I know that there was one time when I was reading a series and the lead character was described as having blonde hair. And three or four books later, I'm reading that she has dark hair and I'm thinking, did she dye her hair and wondering, did the writer make a mistake? Did I remember wrong? It was never important. It was just mentioned.
[00:16:06] Tammy: And so in anything, whether it's a book or a screenplay, it's pretty important for us to remember that it's about the essence of a character, because we all have imaginations and until it's on the screen and it's showing us something, it's only what's important. It's only so that we don't get a shattered image. You know, we've read that in books too, where we've had the description and we've been with this character for 40 pages, and then all of a sudden something comes out about that person's green eyes and it's like, I was totally picturing a brown eye beauty here. Yeah. that was what was in my head. You just shattered that.
[00:16:41] Matty: And so it's very much like that, where it's like, when we first meet the character, we want to know the essence of who they are and only what's important, what will come up later. And things can come up later, depending on how we're telling the story. As long as we're not letting people form an image that will shatter that we find out later. Mostly we want to find out things about their past or something that'll shatter things. It's like, oh, that's news. That's cool. We don't want it to be, oh, wait a minute, that's not how I pictured it. Yeah. I think an interesting analogy between writing a book and writing a screenplay is when you hear stories about all the actors who were considered for particular part and oftentimes, they look really different. I was just reading an article about Bruce Willis and all the people who were considered for the lead role in "Diehard" before he got the part, and very different appearing people, but they all had that kind of every man battling the bad guys and willing to do what it takes. So I think it's a really interesting illustration. It's that every man battling the bad guys that's important. It's not whether he has a receding hairline and a scar on his shoulder.
[00:17:45] Tammy: Exactly. It's a perfect analogy. That's the writer's job is to allow the reader to have some freedom. And whether you're writing a screenplay or a book, you're writing for the reader. It's just in a screenplay, you're also writing for the reader to really picture it as an actual movie and to see it on the screen because it actually could become something that goes to the screen.
Don't Worry about the Perfection
Do you have other tips for people who want to use the approach of starting what they think will eventually be a novel as a screenplay in order to benefit from the creative parameters and direction it provides?
[00:18:22] Tammy: Yes, if you can learn just those basics, and really you just learned them, so you already know 'em now, if you were paying attention at all, you know that it's just the scene heading, it's the action, it's the character slug, and it's the dialogue, and if you can learn those basics, even if you don't put them exactly right on the page and you just use a Word document without ever having looked at a screenplay and you go with that, you can give yourself a lot of freedom. And the way you do that is you don't worry about the 120 pages, because it's really about when you're first writing, I think we use the term in all creative writing is vomit out that first draft.
And don't worry about whether it fits the story parameters. Don't worry if your 120 pages is really 302 pages, which is what my first screenplay about the pirates was. I think it weighed in at 302, and then I got it down to 172, and still working it down to, and then I realized, oh, it's a series. And so it became different things. So, don’t worry about the perfection. Get it on the page. Don't worry if it really fits.
But the good thing is that if you start with the screenplay, you're always going to be thinking in some of limits that you've been given by just virtue of the format, as well as story structure of, you know, we're not going to sit and watch a four-hour movie. We might do that with "Gone with the Wind," but it really is two or three movies put together, right? So, for the most part, we're not trying to write "Dances with Wolves." We're trying to write that 90 minute to two-hour movie. And if you're thinking that way, it will help you as you're going along.
And like I said, just doing it several times is also going to help you. But what I would do is I would just give yourself freedom to just do it the way you want, use those parameters to keep you tied down so that you don't go off and never finish. Because that's the biggie is you need to get to that ending.
And there's another thing in screenplay. So you start with fade in, because you're fading in on the screen and you end with fade out. So where you might have The End at the end of a book, you'll have Fade Out at the end. But either way, you want to get to Fade Out or The End. Make sure that you get there. That's the biggest advice that any writer can ever have.
But when it comes to changing it from screenplay to novel, that's going to help you too. Because now even if it is a 300-page thing, you've got the basis of your novel. And if you do want it to be a screenplay, you can always go back and you can start doing your trimming. But now you've got the beginning of your novel as well.
It's a win-win situation for everyone to start with the screenplay, in my opinion, because nobody's looking at it until you let them, and you're writing it for you to get it done. And now you've given yourself a whole bunch of material and content and fodder that goes into the novel, whether it goes into the screenplay or not.
I love episodes where it's drawing together conversations that have come from other episodes, and another one that I want to point people to is Episode 121, which was Story Structure and Character Motivation with Edwin Hill. And one of the things we had talked about in that episode was, the idea of, for example, TV show structures, where you'd have, I can't remember now, but let's say like 15 minutes and five minutes of commercial, 15 minutes, five minutes of commercial, whatever that is, very structured around the commercial, the very firmly scheduled commercial breaks.
[00:21:53] Matty: So there's not exactly that same kind of thing in movies, because there's not the hard commercial break that you would have in TV, but there must be a similar sort of structural assumption about movies. Is the structural aspect something that you can productively carry forward if you're using this as an entree to novel writing?
[00:22:14] Tammy: Absolutely. You know, we've got structure in everything because, even for movies, one thing to think of is think of Hallmark movies. I believe Variety and a couple of other magazines, they've outed the formula because, well, we all see the formula if we watch LMN Lifetime movies, if we watch any of the mysteries or if we watch the holiday movies from Hallmark or similar Lifetime type movies, we see that there is a structure there. They have a nine-act structure. I think it's nine acts because you have eight breaks, and there's a natural rhythm that that creates for when we're consuming that we all start to learn.
So yes, the structure is something that can guide us no matter which kind of writing we're doing. There is structure to everything, and you get to have fun with doing it however you want when you're writing a novel. And these days you're having fun writing screenplays, breaking the rules in a lot of ways, too, because we have so many different ways to stream out that story, that you can see it as both something that helps you stay structured as well as gives you freedom to do whatever you want and tell the story in a way that is best for the story and for the characters.
We've talked a little bit now about how you can apply screenwriting approaches as a way of an entree into a story. So let's talk a little bit more about the business side. And I think that for most people, I don't know if this is more common or just more heard about, but the idea of having a novel and then the novel becomes screenplay. If there's an indy author out there who has a novel that they think would be a good movie or a good TV show, TV series, what have you, any tips on, first of all, whether to assess whether that feeling is correct or not?
Start Small in a Screenplay and Expand to a Novel
[00:24:01] Tammy: I think that most stories, if they are told well, are going to have that, I'll just keep saying cinematic element to it. I think most stories are things that we picture in our head. There are the few ethereal type things that it's like, yeah, I don't really see this on a screen because I'm more all about the feelings and everything is about the feelings, but most feelings can be shown in some way. I think it behooves pretty much everybody these days to think that way. They don't have to act on it, but I think it expands your creative horizons. And a lot of people do know that, yeah, I want this to be a movie, or I want this to be a series or to be a limited series or mini-series or whatever.
So if you are thinking about the business side, I think it behooves everybody to learn at least enough so that they could turn it into a screenplay, it may not even be a good one, if they've already written the novel. But like I said, I think the really wise thing for both creativity, but especially for business, is write the screenplay first, and then it's so much easier to turn 120-page screenplay into a 300 whatever page book than it is to take that unwieldy book and try to get it into 120 pages.
That is a much bigger task. It is not impossible though. So if you've already written your book and you're thinking about turning it into a screenplay, just know that it'll take some effort, and it'll take some guts because there is a lot of killing of your darlings, as they say. There's a lot of murder that happens when you're coming down, you're just cutting. And so it's a little bit more daunting that way, but it's totally doable. It happens all the time. People do it all the time. But if you're on your own, take the simpler way. Be an efficient writer, start with the shorter version.
[00:25:54] Tammy: And all those things that you've had to keep saying no to, keep those in a file, where I always keep every version. So if I have that 300-page version of my script, I can always go back to it, and it's look at all that cool stuff that I really wanted in there. I really wanted that scene. Now I can put it back in. And it'll be part of the book and that's exactly what I've done with the ones that I have turned into books, because they were screenplays first.
I haven't tried to turn any kind of a book into a screenplay of my own, but I've done that with others and, yeah, it's a lot easier to start with smaller and get bigger.
[00:26:27] Matty: So let's say they've approached it one of those two ways. They either started out with screenplays you're recommending, or they wrote the novel. Let's say they published it as an indy author and now they're thinking screenplay. And now let's say they've done that; they've done all that cutting and killing. They've transferred it into an approved screenplay format.
So what is the next step in the path that hopefully will end with them seeing this on the screen. I'm guessing, knowing you're the Scriptpreneur, you're going to recommend some kind of editing process. Is that always necessary?
[00:26:57] Tammy: Oh, sure. I think you're going to hear that from every industry professional is going to say that. And of course when you're in the reality and you're thinking budget and all that, a lot of people really want to forgo that and they're like, no, my mom is really good at reading this stuff. But your mom is also, she's not going to kill your darlings for you. So an editor can do more than just make sure your spelling is right. Most of us have spell check. We can do that. So it definitely should go to an editor.
The Importance of Contest Submissions
But along the way, it also should go into contests. It should go into something that vets it, that puts it into the hands of somebody you don't know, not your grandmother, not your best friend. And there are ways to do that. There are some contests that are completely 100% free. And there are some contests that are fairly cheap, when it comes to the money side, but they still give you a lot of value.
[00:27:46] Tammy: The Oscars of screenwriting competitions is the Nicholl Fellowship, which is literally run by the Academy, so it's literally the Oscars for screenwriting. And I believe that they're still under $35. Last time I had entered anything, I think it was $25. And that was just a few years ago. So I can't imagine they're over 35 at this point. They also have very huge competition.
But you can also get the notes. It takes a little while to get the notes. So even if you don't place, a couple months after it's over, you are able to get notes from the judges who are the ones who decided whether it moves forward. And that's the important thing is that you want to get notes from the people who make decision. You don't want to enter a contest where they may or may not have moved it forward and then they send it to somebody else because you paid extra to have notes and then they have somebody else read it and give you notes. That's not what you want because you could just pay somebody to give you notes, otherwise. You want the judge who made the decision whether it moves forward or not, you want that person's opinion.
[00:28:47] Tammy: And that helps you. But also even if you don't get the notes, if you can get a placement, even if you get an honorable mention, you're getting some laurels, you're getting some validation to the story. And that gives you some credibility for your story. And it also gives you some momentum.
And you can take some of the notes that you get. That's the beauty of a screenplay too, is that it's not in a printed form where everybody's read it and you can just, and you can do that these days with self-published books. I understand that, but you can only change so much before you have to get like a new ISBN number and start making it a new addition and everything. But with a screenplay, you can just keep updating. It's like a screenplay is never, ever done, until they're done in the cutting room floor in post-production.
Seriously, the screenplay can change quite a bit, just even through the editing of the film after it's been produced. So that's one of the beauties of the screenwriting is knowing that you continue to be able to keep reshaping it, but when it comes to your action plan, I would say, get some laurels.
A Virtuous Cycle between Screenplay and Novel
[00:29:49] Tammy: And same thing with the book. I'm not as well versed in the book world because I started from the screenwriting side, but I know that there are great contests and fellowships and different programs where you can get other people to review your book, to give it some kind of an award, and it can win prizes.
And you can actually earn money too, because the first one that I won $1,500 for the grand prize. And that was when it was still kind of younger, but still had a lot of people entering. And so that was good money to have just come. No, it was more than that. It was 2500 was my first one. That's right. $2,500. And that was in 2013. So you can imagine what it would be now. Quite a much bigger pot now.
And that's a big part of your business too, is that you don't want all your money going out. You want to find a way to start bringing it in, and that's why for screenwriters, definitely turn it into a book and start making sales on it. And your sales are part of your leverage when you bring it to a producer. So for screenwriters, for sure, you almost have to turn it into a book, in my opinion, to just give you more credibility and give you that leverage.
And as a novelist or even if it's a nonfiction book and it's a memoir or it's about your life or whatever, I think turning it into a screenplay also just makes you that much more attractive to anyone who is looking to read the book as well, just to buy it and then read it.
But also if you do want to take it to Hollywood and you can say, I've done a screenplay, well, you've just taken a lot of work out of their hands. They may get another writer to redo it who is an established screenwriter, because that happens all the time in Hollywood, but you've given them something that it's like, I can read this. They're not going to want to read your whole book. A lot of producers are like, I'm very interested in this, and I see that you've got some sales, I'm not going to read your 400 pages. I don't have time for that. So having that screenplay that's a hundred to 120 pages, that makes a difference too.
[00:31:44] Matty: Do you have insight into whether, if an author has their screenplay and their book and they are actively pursuing opportunities for their screenplay, which I want to talk about in a minute, and they're also actively pursuing traditional publication for their book, is that a thing they can do? What would the disclosure be if they're sending their book to an editor or an agent, any thoughts on full disclosure? Is it necessary?
[00:32:12] Tammy: Disclosure is never really necessary, that I understand. I'm not a lawyer of course, but basically if it feels like it's wrong, pursue some answers on it, whatever the circumstances might be. But really when you are pitching, that's exactly what you're doing, you are pitching, and it's not until somebody pays you or you at least have a contract. You can have a contract where they don't pay you, I suppose.
But my screenplay for my book "Evangelina," actually, it's my book for my screenplay "Evangelina," that is under contract, that is optioned by a Hollywood producer who is turning it into a movie. And so I'm not pitching that to anybody. I'm pitching the book and with his blessing, it was in the it's in the contract that I keep the book rights, but he has all the film rights. He has the TV rights. He has pretty much anything that goes on screen. He has those rights and, and actually, we have a good relationship where we can talk about it. And he's helped me strategize a little bit on what I'm doing with the book and vice versa. It's like, okay, so you're doing some artwork for the production team. Okay, great, maybe I can turn that into my next cover. Maybe I can do a new cover and that'll be my cover. And then it'll be like a little commercial for what's coming to the screen.
So it's really not so much about disclosure. It's about just doing the wisest for the situation, and that's what you have to do. Again, make sure you're dotting all your Is and Js and crossing your Ts and that you're following the letter of the law and the spirit of law and everything legal, but make sure that you're also serving your best interest for what will get to your end goal.
If your end goal is to make a movie out of that book, then pitch it everywhere you possibly can, and until somebody is actually putting you under contract, keep pitching it. If you're talking and you're in negotiations with somebody, I would say that's a time to pitch it even harder because you need leverage when you're negotiating. And if you know that somebody else is super interested, it's not really until somebody signs the dotted line, right?
So you really have to just keep pitching it out there, if you have an end goal of doing more and moving it further than where it's at as a self-publish or as a screenplay, whatever, whichever direction you're going in. Keep moving with it.
[00:34:27] Matty: This is definitely going to be the interview that includes the most references to other podcast episodes, which I love. And this conversation is reminding me of episode 107, which is The Seventh Process of Publishing: Selective Rights Licensing. And so what I'm thinking about that I'm carrying forward from that episode is that I think that experts like Joanna Penn at The Creative Penn often talk about the importance of distinguishing print rights from audio rights, ebook rights, and so on. And I can imagine that for someone who's pursuing screenplay opportunities, that the differentiation between audio performance and onscreen performance and maybe even onstage performance are all things that should be considered separately because they could be broken out as individual rights and not just all lumped together as non-book opportunities.
[00:35:16] Tammy: Yeah, absolutely true.
[00:35:19] Matty: And so if, the pitching of the screenplay, how do people go about that? How do they find the opportunities for who they want to pitch to? Is the advice about the mechanics of pitching different for screenplay than for a book? And so on.
[00:35:34] Tammy: Well, probably the biggest thing in Hollywood is that Hollywood is in its own way. And one of the things that I'm working on is wanting to blow up, in a good way, blow up the esteem, I guess you could say, of independent filmmaking. And that means that Hollywood has a certain way that it works and it's a machine. There's a political side to it. There's a lot of negative things that can come in. There's a lot of good things. They attract a lot of money. And there's a lot of things to weigh. But it makes it hard for people to break in.
There are a lot of screenplays that are written that are part of that now proverbial pile, but it used to be a very real pile from floor to ceiling of unread screenplays that sit in a reader's office, and usually an agent or a director or producer or something, you can picture the piles and piles of screenplays. But I have something coming up on Labor Day, a week from today, which is called Reel Connections, and it's at ReelConnex.com is how you can get there. And it's an event that we're doing that's an all-day a summit type thing where there's some teaching. And a lot of these kind of things are discussed by different people who are in the industry, but also teaching how to pitch, how to find the people to pitch to, and you know where to find them and how to make that process move forward so that you're not just writing for the wind.
[00:37:06] Tammy: The point is that you want to get read, which is another reason why screenwriters really need to turn their screenplays into books, to start building an audience, get an audience. And again, that gives you leverage. So on the business side, that's good, but it also, it just gets your story out there. And it gives you an audience. And then when it does happen for the screen, then you've got that audience in place.
So there are things out there. And my whole point with Reel Connections is that's what I want to do. I want to bring authors and filmmakers together. The people who are looking to make stories happen need to find the right stories. And the people who have those wonderful stories, they need to get them into the hands of people who can make them happen.
And there are places that you can do that. If you go online, you'll find a whole bunch of different member sites, like something called Stage 32. There is InkTip, and that is a place where you find out about some usually independent, but still, it starts careers, independent producers are looking for certain kinds of scripts. And so all of these are paid services where you can do the pitching and or where you can find out who's looking for what, and you can make a specific pitch to a specific person. And there's several of those kinds of things.
With Reel Connections what I'm trying to do is just have a place where people can come and say what their project is and hopefully start some collaborations, some connections, and it's free. And it's just, it's for the fun of it as well as for the business of it. And it's also to kind of get around that Hollywood machine. In a way we kind of want to blow up Hollywood, like not in a good way. We want to just get rid of what we consider Hollywood of the bad stuff and let's lift up, I think is a better word, the independent filmmaking, so that greater stories can get out there and that people are not feeling the suppression of, this is never going to happen. It's never going to happen. because you can start to feel that way. If you don't find the avenues that get you there.
[00:39:00] Matty: If someone is listening to this after Labor Day 2022, is there a way that they can tap into that Reel Connections and benefit from it? Or is it a one-time event kind of thing?
[00:39:10] Tammy: Nope. That's the whole point is that it's kind of a kickoff. This will live on beyond that date. Yes, every Tuesday we're going to be coming together and it's going to be the same thing. It's going to be ReelConnex.com and it's going to be a lot of fun. It'll be about an hour on Tuesdays at noon Pacific time, so that people can just tell what they're doing and give out opportunities as well as say, this is the opportunity I'm looking for. And it should be a lot of fun.
[00:39:37] Matty: Very nice. Well, Tammy, thank you so much. This has been so interesting. Please let the listeners and the viewers know where they can go to find out more about you and all you do online.
[00:39:46] Tammy: I think the best thing that I can tell you is to go to ReelConnex.com and join us. There'll be people who are presenting, they’ll be teaching and stuff like that. And you can get to me through that too. You can always get me through Scriptpreneur. I am the Scriptpreneur. So Scriptpreneur.com is where you can also find me or just [email protected] if you want to write to me.
[00:40:12] Matty: Great, thank you so much.
[00:40:14] Tammy: Thank you. This has been really fun, Matty.
[00:00:05] Tammy: Hi there. I am good.
[00:00:08] Matty: To give our listeners and viewers a little bit of background on you, since 2008, Tammy Gross, the Scriptpreneur, has been editing and doctoring screenplays for writers of all levels. With Tammy's help Shia LaBeouf's autobiographical script was transformed into the compelling story that is now the award-winning film, "Honey Boy." Her own screenplay turned novel became a bestseller through her Reel Novels imprint, and it is slated for late 2022 film production by an A-list TV producer.
And so we're going to be talking about from screenplay to novel and back again. So, I wanted to start right out asking, Tammy, if you can describe a little bit about your own experience in this with your own work, because I think that'll be a good context for some questions that I think our listeners and viewers will have.
[00:00:53] Tammy: Yeah. You know, I started out, a long time ago wanting to write books at some point. I had a cousin who was a writer. And I read her books because they were written for children. It was called Suki and the Peacock, her name was Joyce Blackburn. But she was a second cousin and I had never met her in real life, but I just idolized her. And I knew that, creativity things were in my future. I was either going to sing or I was going to write or both or whatever. Somewhere along the way, it was decided as a family almost, that I would sing while I was young, and then I would write when I'm old and have some kind of life experience.
And apparently in 2008 ish, I found out about some female pirates that lived 300 years ago, and I turned old, apparently, because I stopped singing. I had had a long career in music, and I was on a break from singing. But when I discovered about them, I just wanted to write their screenplay. I'm like, I had never heard about these lady pirates that lived 300 years ago. And I'm like, why have I never seen a movie?
Why have I never read a book? Why don't I know about them? And so I just embarked on a new adventure and started researching them, literally went all around the world and started learning about their story, wanting to tell it and trying to figure out how to tell it. But then also realizing I have no idea how to write a screenplay. I don't know anything about writing screenplays.
So I worked on learning that, and I kind of entered Hollywood through the back door, I guess you could say, because I started some writing groups and was learning, and really was finding myself helping others more than I was helping myself, because I had always been an editor of some sort throughout my entire adult life. I was always the person that people would scream across the room saying, how do you spell whatever, you know? And I would scream it back to them. And then I would be on the editorial staff when I was in corporate and there were newsletters and things like that.
So I just always found myself in some kind of an editorial position, no matter what my real major position was. And that got me into the world of screenwriting. And I just had to tell stories, but I also loved helping other people do it and do it well, as well.
Deciding to Capture a Story in a Screenplay
[00:03:04] Matty: So what made you decide to capture that story as a screenplay rather than the book that your family expected you to be writing?
[00:03:12] Tammy: I don't know. My sister was the actual pirate fan. That's why we were in a pirate museum. And when I found out about this, I was kind of in a swashbuckling mood, I guess, because all I could think was this needs to be a movie. I could just, I literally, I kept looking into the sky, like, why am I not seeing the movie in front of me? Why don't I have more information that this has been a movie? So it just had to be a movie that's the way I was picturing it. And that's what kind of got me hooked.
[00:03:37] Matty: I've talked a couple of times in past podcast episodes about the fact that for most of my novels, there's a scene that I see playing out very clearly in my mind, like a movie, but I've never really pursued a screenplay. Do you think that there are tips if a person has in mind a story, they haven't committed it to actual virtual paper yet, and they're making that decision about whether they should initially capture it as a novel or as a screenplay.
The Benefits of the Screenplay Format
[00:04:05] Tammy: That is such a great question because I am probably the only person that I ever hear saying this, but I think it behooves every writer to learn how to write a screenplay, but not necessarily to write the screenplay, but certainly learn how to. Because that cinematic thinking is going to inform how you can tell the story very well and very efficiently on paper. Of course, for many writers, myself included when I'm in that mode of prose, it's all about the prose. It's all about the word. It's all about the phrasing.
And so it's not that you want to push that aside, but the simple answer to that question is write the screenplay first and then write the novel, because you have very limited things, you have parameters that are set around your story when you write in a screenplay. It's going to be 120 pages or less in a very specific kind of format. So that usually means 20,000 words or less. It makes you be efficient in your storytelling.
[00:05:15] Tammy: And you can even use screenplay as being your outlining for the novel itself, because you're not worried about how you're putting it on the page for the most part. You are because the reader is going to be your ultimate audience, when you first start putting a screenplay out there. But if you're doing for the fact that you want to have really efficient storytelling, and if you're thinking cinematically and, yeah, nowadays it's good to think about that, that maybe it will become a movie someday. It's great to put it in that format because it gives you an outline, it gives you those parameters that makes you fit it in. It makes you cut out the fat as you're writing, or it lets you write it, but then you find a way to cut it out so that it fits in the end into that 120-page structure.
It helps you with story structure. It helps you with efficiency of word. It helps you with efficiency of story. And then you can blossom it out and turn it into a novel. So whether you are ever going to turn it into an actual movie or make any pursuits or anything, I would say, start with the screenplay.
And that means learning screenplay format, which is much more simple than most people make it. There are some professional screenwriters who if they go out and they try to teach it, they make it really complicated and really scary, but it's really actually kind of freeing at how simple it really is. So that is where I would start right there. Just start with the screenplay, start with learning a little bit about the format, and then branch out.
Because like you, most people do have some kind of a cinematic image, what we call set pieces. So the thing that you think is going to be like, that's going to be in the trailer, you know, for my movie. And what are we doing these days? We're doing trailers for our books, too. So that's going to be in the trailer for my book.
And so that's a great way to start thinking. It also gets you into the creative mode because you're already thinking in pictures so that when you do start concentrating on how you're going to tell it and what your words are going to be, you're already flowing into an image, more than just making the words pretty on the page. Which a lot of writers don't realize that's what they're doing, but they love the sound of their words. That's why we're writing. So you give your yourself permission to do what you love but do it in a way that is going to work for the reader.
What to Include and Exclude in a Screenplay
[00:07:35] Matty: When someone is just starting out on a screenplay, I think most people have probably seen pages of a screenplay for well-known movies or something like that. And I picture the name of the character and then the dialogue they say and some right high level, you know, then they cross the stage and look out the window or whatever. Is that how you start out when you're starting out to craft a screenplay? What are you including and what are you explicitly excluding from that?
[00:08:00] Tammy: Well, what you're excluding is a lot of description that, I mean, not all of description, but a lot of the description that we love to use in prose to really set the scene and to bring us inward. And it's like all the thoughts and feelings that a character is having. In a screenplay, you're doing away with that by showing what's happening on the inside through what's happening on the outside, because you can only put on a film or on a screen, you can only put what we see and what we hear. And so it's so simple that that's where it gets into writer's heads.
But if you start out with that attitude, it helps a lot actually, because you know that you have all those thoughts and feelings and you want to put them in there and you want to help the reader feel what the character's feeling. But if you can master that through visuals, then when you expand it and you put it into the prose that will become the book, it's more magical because you've already set that tone for the reader because you're just already automatically giving those visuals that bring you inward.
The Four Components of a Screenplay
[00:09:08] Tammy: And I know that sounds, see, I'm making it sound complicated, but I'll tell you to simply answer that really all you need to know are four things. You just need to know where it's happening and that's the scene heading. So it's about location.
And then the next thing you need is the description, which is also the action. So I call it the narrative. Again, I'm making it complicated, right? if you get software, it's going to say scene heading and it's going to say action. And then it's going to say character, which is oversimplification, I call it character slug. In other words, the character's name is like an element that you always have to have before you have dialogue. And then dialogue is the fourth element. So scene heading, action, character, and dialog. That's all you need to write a screenplay.
That's all you need to write a book as well, really, but we always complicate it. And there are other elements you can add in there, that can, or can't work, but most screenplays work best when they have just those four elements and they don't get too fancy with too many, you know, you don't need on camera directions. The narrative kind of drives that. The action drives all those cool things that you want the director to do, but really, you're just helping the reader direct it in their own head.
So that's what keeps it simple is if you keep those four elements. And that's all you need to write is you just write the bare necessities. If the opening scene is taking place in a bar, all you need to know is if the bar is full or if it's a honkytonk type thing, or if it's a classy bar. You just need like the basic things. You don't need to know what every single person in the room is doing, and what music is playing on the jukebox if there is one. You don't need to know all that stuff. You feel what's happening, because we all have our imaginations that will fill in those blanks.
And even on a screenplay, the same thing. You're not the director. You're the storyteller. And you just have to stay in storytelling mode, even if there's a director hiding inside of you, which I think there is probably in all of us or we wouldn't be writing.
[00:11:09] Matty: Do you feel as if the fact that you separate out the director aspect when you're writing a screenplay is a positive for writers? Like, does it keep them from doing something that would be counterproductive, at least in those early stages of their drafting process?
[00:11:23] Tammy: Yes, I think it's something that it's like anything where you get good at it over time. There are some prodigies in every area of life that, that can just sit down, and they can just figure it all out and do it really well the first time, even if they're breaking all the rules, but most of us are not that person and we really need to practice. And so that's one of the things that it's like a muscle that you exercise when you write a screenplay.
That's why it took me a little while to get certain things. I had to go through some training and also just make a lot of mistakes along the way. I had to do a few mistakes along the way in order to make it really become a second nature to know that my director belongs in the prose. I can start directing things once I am outside of the script situation. Because in the script you're the storyteller. You're setting the visuals, but you're creating a story that three different directors could make it look totally different and feel totally different. And yet they can't change the story unless they change the script.
And so you have control over where the story goes, how the story goes, and who the characters are and how they get from where their starting point is to their ending point. You're the person in control of that. And that's the difference between your job and the director's job, but you can be both, because you can then write the book and you can have at it, you can do whatever you want with it then.
So some of the things you're saying about, Author as director, author as screenwriter, and so on, I want to point listeners to Episode 128, which was Lessons from Filmmaking for the Indy Author with John Gaspard. So this will be a good companion discussion to that.
[00:13:02] Matty: You had mentioned character slug as one of the four components that you would start every scene or chapter or screenplay with. Can you describe, let's say it's a Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, does it just say "Dorothy" or does it give a little bit of information about her?
[00:13:19] Tammy: Nope, all of the information is taken care of in the action. and I will just keep using the word action just to keep it simple. In case somebody does want to explore this, you get Final Draft, or you get Movie Magic, Screenwriter, or you get Celtx, or there's a couple of other screen screenplay software that you can get. And almost all of them are going to, like I said, have scene heading, action, character, dialog. Plus all the other little others that you could add in. And in the action is where you take care of any details that we need to see or hear that are not dialogue or not location.
And even in location, you can expand on location, because you can say in the scene heading, Blue Star Motel. And that's all you need in your scene heading besides little technical things that you don't have to worry about right now. And then in the action you would have, this is a rundown sleazy motel from the fifties, and it has the lights out or something. You don't want to go too far again in that description. But if you really want to set the mood of, like this is a sleazy, bad, those red-light district or something, you would use those kinds of phrases to just shortcut to get us knowing what it is.
And same thing with the character. When they first appear, now I'm going to get a little deeper into how you do the format, but when they first appear, they are all caps in a screen play. And that just shows that this is the first time we've ever seen them on screen. And so this is their on-screen appearance. And so you would put their name, DOROTHY, in all caps. Do we know her last name?
[00:14:57] Tammy: Dorothy Gale. It is Dorothy Gale. You're right. I was going to say, I know we know it. Okay. So you would put DOROTHY GALE in all caps because that is informing the cast list.
So there's reasons for why you do certain things that are technical in a screenplay. And that's when it starts getting a little complicated, because then you feel like you have to know everything about screenplays, but you really don't. Some of the basics you can mess up on some of that stuff. The main thing is getting the storytelling and getting it cinematic if you ever show this screenplay to somebody else. But for yourself, you don't even have to worry about that. But it is interesting that when there are technical things, it's because there's still a reason for it.
And then you would describe her. You would know how old she is. You would know the color of her hair, if that's important, only what's important. Cause just like in a book you want to leave it to the imagination.
It's About the Essence of the Character
I know that there was one time when I was reading a series and the lead character was described as having blonde hair. And three or four books later, I'm reading that she has dark hair and I'm thinking, did she dye her hair and wondering, did the writer make a mistake? Did I remember wrong? It was never important. It was just mentioned.
[00:16:06] Tammy: And so in anything, whether it's a book or a screenplay, it's pretty important for us to remember that it's about the essence of a character, because we all have imaginations and until it's on the screen and it's showing us something, it's only what's important. It's only so that we don't get a shattered image. You know, we've read that in books too, where we've had the description and we've been with this character for 40 pages, and then all of a sudden something comes out about that person's green eyes and it's like, I was totally picturing a brown eye beauty here. Yeah. that was what was in my head. You just shattered that.
[00:16:41] Matty: And so it's very much like that, where it's like, when we first meet the character, we want to know the essence of who they are and only what's important, what will come up later. And things can come up later, depending on how we're telling the story. As long as we're not letting people form an image that will shatter that we find out later. Mostly we want to find out things about their past or something that'll shatter things. It's like, oh, that's news. That's cool. We don't want it to be, oh, wait a minute, that's not how I pictured it. Yeah. I think an interesting analogy between writing a book and writing a screenplay is when you hear stories about all the actors who were considered for particular part and oftentimes, they look really different. I was just reading an article about Bruce Willis and all the people who were considered for the lead role in "Diehard" before he got the part, and very different appearing people, but they all had that kind of every man battling the bad guys and willing to do what it takes. So I think it's a really interesting illustration. It's that every man battling the bad guys that's important. It's not whether he has a receding hairline and a scar on his shoulder.
[00:17:45] Tammy: Exactly. It's a perfect analogy. That's the writer's job is to allow the reader to have some freedom. And whether you're writing a screenplay or a book, you're writing for the reader. It's just in a screenplay, you're also writing for the reader to really picture it as an actual movie and to see it on the screen because it actually could become something that goes to the screen.
Don't Worry about the Perfection
Do you have other tips for people who want to use the approach of starting what they think will eventually be a novel as a screenplay in order to benefit from the creative parameters and direction it provides?
[00:18:22] Tammy: Yes, if you can learn just those basics, and really you just learned them, so you already know 'em now, if you were paying attention at all, you know that it's just the scene heading, it's the action, it's the character slug, and it's the dialogue, and if you can learn those basics, even if you don't put them exactly right on the page and you just use a Word document without ever having looked at a screenplay and you go with that, you can give yourself a lot of freedom. And the way you do that is you don't worry about the 120 pages, because it's really about when you're first writing, I think we use the term in all creative writing is vomit out that first draft.
And don't worry about whether it fits the story parameters. Don't worry if your 120 pages is really 302 pages, which is what my first screenplay about the pirates was. I think it weighed in at 302, and then I got it down to 172, and still working it down to, and then I realized, oh, it's a series. And so it became different things. So, don’t worry about the perfection. Get it on the page. Don't worry if it really fits.
But the good thing is that if you start with the screenplay, you're always going to be thinking in some of limits that you've been given by just virtue of the format, as well as story structure of, you know, we're not going to sit and watch a four-hour movie. We might do that with "Gone with the Wind," but it really is two or three movies put together, right? So, for the most part, we're not trying to write "Dances with Wolves." We're trying to write that 90 minute to two-hour movie. And if you're thinking that way, it will help you as you're going along.
And like I said, just doing it several times is also going to help you. But what I would do is I would just give yourself freedom to just do it the way you want, use those parameters to keep you tied down so that you don't go off and never finish. Because that's the biggie is you need to get to that ending.
And there's another thing in screenplay. So you start with fade in, because you're fading in on the screen and you end with fade out. So where you might have The End at the end of a book, you'll have Fade Out at the end. But either way, you want to get to Fade Out or The End. Make sure that you get there. That's the biggest advice that any writer can ever have.
But when it comes to changing it from screenplay to novel, that's going to help you too. Because now even if it is a 300-page thing, you've got the basis of your novel. And if you do want it to be a screenplay, you can always go back and you can start doing your trimming. But now you've got the beginning of your novel as well.
It's a win-win situation for everyone to start with the screenplay, in my opinion, because nobody's looking at it until you let them, and you're writing it for you to get it done. And now you've given yourself a whole bunch of material and content and fodder that goes into the novel, whether it goes into the screenplay or not.
I love episodes where it's drawing together conversations that have come from other episodes, and another one that I want to point people to is Episode 121, which was Story Structure and Character Motivation with Edwin Hill. And one of the things we had talked about in that episode was, the idea of, for example, TV show structures, where you'd have, I can't remember now, but let's say like 15 minutes and five minutes of commercial, 15 minutes, five minutes of commercial, whatever that is, very structured around the commercial, the very firmly scheduled commercial breaks.
[00:21:53] Matty: So there's not exactly that same kind of thing in movies, because there's not the hard commercial break that you would have in TV, but there must be a similar sort of structural assumption about movies. Is the structural aspect something that you can productively carry forward if you're using this as an entree to novel writing?
[00:22:14] Tammy: Absolutely. You know, we've got structure in everything because, even for movies, one thing to think of is think of Hallmark movies. I believe Variety and a couple of other magazines, they've outed the formula because, well, we all see the formula if we watch LMN Lifetime movies, if we watch any of the mysteries or if we watch the holiday movies from Hallmark or similar Lifetime type movies, we see that there is a structure there. They have a nine-act structure. I think it's nine acts because you have eight breaks, and there's a natural rhythm that that creates for when we're consuming that we all start to learn.
So yes, the structure is something that can guide us no matter which kind of writing we're doing. There is structure to everything, and you get to have fun with doing it however you want when you're writing a novel. And these days you're having fun writing screenplays, breaking the rules in a lot of ways, too, because we have so many different ways to stream out that story, that you can see it as both something that helps you stay structured as well as gives you freedom to do whatever you want and tell the story in a way that is best for the story and for the characters.
We've talked a little bit now about how you can apply screenwriting approaches as a way of an entree into a story. So let's talk a little bit more about the business side. And I think that for most people, I don't know if this is more common or just more heard about, but the idea of having a novel and then the novel becomes screenplay. If there's an indy author out there who has a novel that they think would be a good movie or a good TV show, TV series, what have you, any tips on, first of all, whether to assess whether that feeling is correct or not?
Start Small in a Screenplay and Expand to a Novel
[00:24:01] Tammy: I think that most stories, if they are told well, are going to have that, I'll just keep saying cinematic element to it. I think most stories are things that we picture in our head. There are the few ethereal type things that it's like, yeah, I don't really see this on a screen because I'm more all about the feelings and everything is about the feelings, but most feelings can be shown in some way. I think it behooves pretty much everybody these days to think that way. They don't have to act on it, but I think it expands your creative horizons. And a lot of people do know that, yeah, I want this to be a movie, or I want this to be a series or to be a limited series or mini-series or whatever.
So if you are thinking about the business side, I think it behooves everybody to learn at least enough so that they could turn it into a screenplay, it may not even be a good one, if they've already written the novel. But like I said, I think the really wise thing for both creativity, but especially for business, is write the screenplay first, and then it's so much easier to turn 120-page screenplay into a 300 whatever page book than it is to take that unwieldy book and try to get it into 120 pages.
That is a much bigger task. It is not impossible though. So if you've already written your book and you're thinking about turning it into a screenplay, just know that it'll take some effort, and it'll take some guts because there is a lot of killing of your darlings, as they say. There's a lot of murder that happens when you're coming down, you're just cutting. And so it's a little bit more daunting that way, but it's totally doable. It happens all the time. People do it all the time. But if you're on your own, take the simpler way. Be an efficient writer, start with the shorter version.
[00:25:54] Tammy: And all those things that you've had to keep saying no to, keep those in a file, where I always keep every version. So if I have that 300-page version of my script, I can always go back to it, and it's look at all that cool stuff that I really wanted in there. I really wanted that scene. Now I can put it back in. And it'll be part of the book and that's exactly what I've done with the ones that I have turned into books, because they were screenplays first.
I haven't tried to turn any kind of a book into a screenplay of my own, but I've done that with others and, yeah, it's a lot easier to start with smaller and get bigger.
[00:26:27] Matty: So let's say they've approached it one of those two ways. They either started out with screenplays you're recommending, or they wrote the novel. Let's say they published it as an indy author and now they're thinking screenplay. And now let's say they've done that; they've done all that cutting and killing. They've transferred it into an approved screenplay format.
So what is the next step in the path that hopefully will end with them seeing this on the screen. I'm guessing, knowing you're the Scriptpreneur, you're going to recommend some kind of editing process. Is that always necessary?
[00:26:57] Tammy: Oh, sure. I think you're going to hear that from every industry professional is going to say that. And of course when you're in the reality and you're thinking budget and all that, a lot of people really want to forgo that and they're like, no, my mom is really good at reading this stuff. But your mom is also, she's not going to kill your darlings for you. So an editor can do more than just make sure your spelling is right. Most of us have spell check. We can do that. So it definitely should go to an editor.
The Importance of Contest Submissions
But along the way, it also should go into contests. It should go into something that vets it, that puts it into the hands of somebody you don't know, not your grandmother, not your best friend. And there are ways to do that. There are some contests that are completely 100% free. And there are some contests that are fairly cheap, when it comes to the money side, but they still give you a lot of value.
[00:27:46] Tammy: The Oscars of screenwriting competitions is the Nicholl Fellowship, which is literally run by the Academy, so it's literally the Oscars for screenwriting. And I believe that they're still under $35. Last time I had entered anything, I think it was $25. And that was just a few years ago. So I can't imagine they're over 35 at this point. They also have very huge competition.
But you can also get the notes. It takes a little while to get the notes. So even if you don't place, a couple months after it's over, you are able to get notes from the judges who are the ones who decided whether it moves forward. And that's the important thing is that you want to get notes from the people who make decision. You don't want to enter a contest where they may or may not have moved it forward and then they send it to somebody else because you paid extra to have notes and then they have somebody else read it and give you notes. That's not what you want because you could just pay somebody to give you notes, otherwise. You want the judge who made the decision whether it moves forward or not, you want that person's opinion.
[00:28:47] Tammy: And that helps you. But also even if you don't get the notes, if you can get a placement, even if you get an honorable mention, you're getting some laurels, you're getting some validation to the story. And that gives you some credibility for your story. And it also gives you some momentum.
And you can take some of the notes that you get. That's the beauty of a screenplay too, is that it's not in a printed form where everybody's read it and you can just, and you can do that these days with self-published books. I understand that, but you can only change so much before you have to get like a new ISBN number and start making it a new addition and everything. But with a screenplay, you can just keep updating. It's like a screenplay is never, ever done, until they're done in the cutting room floor in post-production.
Seriously, the screenplay can change quite a bit, just even through the editing of the film after it's been produced. So that's one of the beauties of the screenwriting is knowing that you continue to be able to keep reshaping it, but when it comes to your action plan, I would say, get some laurels.
A Virtuous Cycle between Screenplay and Novel
[00:29:49] Tammy: And same thing with the book. I'm not as well versed in the book world because I started from the screenwriting side, but I know that there are great contests and fellowships and different programs where you can get other people to review your book, to give it some kind of an award, and it can win prizes.
And you can actually earn money too, because the first one that I won $1,500 for the grand prize. And that was when it was still kind of younger, but still had a lot of people entering. And so that was good money to have just come. No, it was more than that. It was 2500 was my first one. That's right. $2,500. And that was in 2013. So you can imagine what it would be now. Quite a much bigger pot now.
And that's a big part of your business too, is that you don't want all your money going out. You want to find a way to start bringing it in, and that's why for screenwriters, definitely turn it into a book and start making sales on it. And your sales are part of your leverage when you bring it to a producer. So for screenwriters, for sure, you almost have to turn it into a book, in my opinion, to just give you more credibility and give you that leverage.
And as a novelist or even if it's a nonfiction book and it's a memoir or it's about your life or whatever, I think turning it into a screenplay also just makes you that much more attractive to anyone who is looking to read the book as well, just to buy it and then read it.
But also if you do want to take it to Hollywood and you can say, I've done a screenplay, well, you've just taken a lot of work out of their hands. They may get another writer to redo it who is an established screenwriter, because that happens all the time in Hollywood, but you've given them something that it's like, I can read this. They're not going to want to read your whole book. A lot of producers are like, I'm very interested in this, and I see that you've got some sales, I'm not going to read your 400 pages. I don't have time for that. So having that screenplay that's a hundred to 120 pages, that makes a difference too.
[00:31:44] Matty: Do you have insight into whether, if an author has their screenplay and their book and they are actively pursuing opportunities for their screenplay, which I want to talk about in a minute, and they're also actively pursuing traditional publication for their book, is that a thing they can do? What would the disclosure be if they're sending their book to an editor or an agent, any thoughts on full disclosure? Is it necessary?
[00:32:12] Tammy: Disclosure is never really necessary, that I understand. I'm not a lawyer of course, but basically if it feels like it's wrong, pursue some answers on it, whatever the circumstances might be. But really when you are pitching, that's exactly what you're doing, you are pitching, and it's not until somebody pays you or you at least have a contract. You can have a contract where they don't pay you, I suppose.
But my screenplay for my book "Evangelina," actually, it's my book for my screenplay "Evangelina," that is under contract, that is optioned by a Hollywood producer who is turning it into a movie. And so I'm not pitching that to anybody. I'm pitching the book and with his blessing, it was in the it's in the contract that I keep the book rights, but he has all the film rights. He has the TV rights. He has pretty much anything that goes on screen. He has those rights and, and actually, we have a good relationship where we can talk about it. And he's helped me strategize a little bit on what I'm doing with the book and vice versa. It's like, okay, so you're doing some artwork for the production team. Okay, great, maybe I can turn that into my next cover. Maybe I can do a new cover and that'll be my cover. And then it'll be like a little commercial for what's coming to the screen.
So it's really not so much about disclosure. It's about just doing the wisest for the situation, and that's what you have to do. Again, make sure you're dotting all your Is and Js and crossing your Ts and that you're following the letter of the law and the spirit of law and everything legal, but make sure that you're also serving your best interest for what will get to your end goal.
If your end goal is to make a movie out of that book, then pitch it everywhere you possibly can, and until somebody is actually putting you under contract, keep pitching it. If you're talking and you're in negotiations with somebody, I would say that's a time to pitch it even harder because you need leverage when you're negotiating. And if you know that somebody else is super interested, it's not really until somebody signs the dotted line, right?
So you really have to just keep pitching it out there, if you have an end goal of doing more and moving it further than where it's at as a self-publish or as a screenplay, whatever, whichever direction you're going in. Keep moving with it.
[00:34:27] Matty: This is definitely going to be the interview that includes the most references to other podcast episodes, which I love. And this conversation is reminding me of episode 107, which is The Seventh Process of Publishing: Selective Rights Licensing. And so what I'm thinking about that I'm carrying forward from that episode is that I think that experts like Joanna Penn at The Creative Penn often talk about the importance of distinguishing print rights from audio rights, ebook rights, and so on. And I can imagine that for someone who's pursuing screenplay opportunities, that the differentiation between audio performance and onscreen performance and maybe even onstage performance are all things that should be considered separately because they could be broken out as individual rights and not just all lumped together as non-book opportunities.
[00:35:16] Tammy: Yeah, absolutely true.
[00:35:19] Matty: And so if, the pitching of the screenplay, how do people go about that? How do they find the opportunities for who they want to pitch to? Is the advice about the mechanics of pitching different for screenplay than for a book? And so on.
[00:35:34] Tammy: Well, probably the biggest thing in Hollywood is that Hollywood is in its own way. And one of the things that I'm working on is wanting to blow up, in a good way, blow up the esteem, I guess you could say, of independent filmmaking. And that means that Hollywood has a certain way that it works and it's a machine. There's a political side to it. There's a lot of negative things that can come in. There's a lot of good things. They attract a lot of money. And there's a lot of things to weigh. But it makes it hard for people to break in.
There are a lot of screenplays that are written that are part of that now proverbial pile, but it used to be a very real pile from floor to ceiling of unread screenplays that sit in a reader's office, and usually an agent or a director or producer or something, you can picture the piles and piles of screenplays. But I have something coming up on Labor Day, a week from today, which is called Reel Connections, and it's at ReelConnex.com is how you can get there. And it's an event that we're doing that's an all-day a summit type thing where there's some teaching. And a lot of these kind of things are discussed by different people who are in the industry, but also teaching how to pitch, how to find the people to pitch to, and you know where to find them and how to make that process move forward so that you're not just writing for the wind.
[00:37:06] Tammy: The point is that you want to get read, which is another reason why screenwriters really need to turn their screenplays into books, to start building an audience, get an audience. And again, that gives you leverage. So on the business side, that's good, but it also, it just gets your story out there. And it gives you an audience. And then when it does happen for the screen, then you've got that audience in place.
So there are things out there. And my whole point with Reel Connections is that's what I want to do. I want to bring authors and filmmakers together. The people who are looking to make stories happen need to find the right stories. And the people who have those wonderful stories, they need to get them into the hands of people who can make them happen.
And there are places that you can do that. If you go online, you'll find a whole bunch of different member sites, like something called Stage 32. There is InkTip, and that is a place where you find out about some usually independent, but still, it starts careers, independent producers are looking for certain kinds of scripts. And so all of these are paid services where you can do the pitching and or where you can find out who's looking for what, and you can make a specific pitch to a specific person. And there's several of those kinds of things.
With Reel Connections what I'm trying to do is just have a place where people can come and say what their project is and hopefully start some collaborations, some connections, and it's free. And it's just, it's for the fun of it as well as for the business of it. And it's also to kind of get around that Hollywood machine. In a way we kind of want to blow up Hollywood, like not in a good way. We want to just get rid of what we consider Hollywood of the bad stuff and let's lift up, I think is a better word, the independent filmmaking, so that greater stories can get out there and that people are not feeling the suppression of, this is never going to happen. It's never going to happen. because you can start to feel that way. If you don't find the avenues that get you there.
[00:39:00] Matty: If someone is listening to this after Labor Day 2022, is there a way that they can tap into that Reel Connections and benefit from it? Or is it a one-time event kind of thing?
[00:39:10] Tammy: Nope. That's the whole point is that it's kind of a kickoff. This will live on beyond that date. Yes, every Tuesday we're going to be coming together and it's going to be the same thing. It's going to be ReelConnex.com and it's going to be a lot of fun. It'll be about an hour on Tuesdays at noon Pacific time, so that people can just tell what they're doing and give out opportunities as well as say, this is the opportunity I'm looking for. And it should be a lot of fun.
[00:39:37] Matty: Very nice. Well, Tammy, thank you so much. This has been so interesting. Please let the listeners and the viewers know where they can go to find out more about you and all you do online.
[00:39:46] Tammy: I think the best thing that I can tell you is to go to ReelConnex.com and join us. There'll be people who are presenting, they’ll be teaching and stuff like that. And you can get to me through that too. You can always get me through Scriptpreneur. I am the Scriptpreneur. So Scriptpreneur.com is where you can also find me or just [email protected] if you want to write to me.
[00:40:12] Matty: Great, thank you so much.
[00:40:14] Tammy: Thank you. This has been really fun, Matty.
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