Episode 148 - Making the Most of In-person Events with Michael La Ronn
August 23, 2022
Michael La Ronn of Author Level Up discusses MAKING THE MOST OF IN-PERSON EVENTS. He talks about making the time investment worth it (and doing the math); managing your energy; ways to build connections; using an in-person event as a lead-in to other engagements; and the fact that professionalism is everything.
Do any of those topics pique your interest? Check out 2 MINUTES OF INDY, where over the week following the airing of the episode, you'll find brief video clips from the interview on each of those topics. You can also catch up on some highlights of previous episodes there. |
Michael La Ronn is the author of over forty science fiction & fantasy novels and self-help books for writers. He also runs the popular YouTube channel Author Level Up, where he publishes weekly advice videos for writers. Michael also serves on the staff of the Alliance of Independent Authors as a US Ambassador, and he co-hosts the AskAlli Member Q&A Podcast where he answers new writers’ most burning questions about self-publishing.
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"Professionalism is everything. If there's something that you need that will accommodate you and make sure that you deliver your presentation in the way that is going to knock it out of the park, then you need to ask for that and negotiate it and get it in writing. But when you show up, you have to show up. You can't just show up and phone it in. You have to deliver an amazing presentation." —Michael La Ronn
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Links
From interview intro:
Matty’s conversation with Liesel Hill on The Prolific Author podcast about Creating Your Fiction Story Frame:
https://youtu.be/DE6DEOQZAC8
Michael’s links:
https://www.youtube.com/authorlevelup
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaellaronn/
https://twitter.com/michaellaronn
https://www.facebook.com/michael.laronn
Other episodes with Michael La Ronn:
Episode 126 - Estate Planning for Authors with Michael La Ronn
Episode 096 - Emerging Tech for the Writing Craft
Episode 090 - Bringing a Creative Endeavor to an End
Episode 055 - The Costs of Self-publishing a Book
Episode 082 - Perspectives on Writer's Block
Matty's Links:
Affiliate links
Events
Matty’s conversation with Liesel Hill on The Prolific Author podcast about Creating Your Fiction Story Frame:
https://youtu.be/DE6DEOQZAC8
Michael’s links:
https://www.youtube.com/authorlevelup
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaellaronn/
https://twitter.com/michaellaronn
https://www.facebook.com/michael.laronn
Other episodes with Michael La Ronn:
Episode 126 - Estate Planning for Authors with Michael La Ronn
Episode 096 - Emerging Tech for the Writing Craft
Episode 090 - Bringing a Creative Endeavor to an End
Episode 055 - The Costs of Self-publishing a Book
Episode 082 - Perspectives on Writer's Block
Matty's Links:
Affiliate links
Events
Transcript
[00:00:00] Matty: Hello and welcome to The Indy Author Podcast. Today my guest is Michael La Ronn. Hey, Michael, how are you doing?
[00:00:04] Michael: Hey, Matty. Great to be here.
[00:00:06] Matty: It is great to have you here. I'm just going to give our listeners and viewers a little reminder of your many accomplishments.
About Michael
Michael La Ronn is the author of over 40 science fiction and fantasy novels and self-help books for writers. He also runs the popular YouTube channel, Author Level Up where he publishes weekly advice videos for writers. Michael also serves on the staff of the Alliance of Independent Authors as the US ambassador, and he co-hosts the Ask ALLi Member Q&A Podcast where he answers new writers' most burning questions about self-publishing.
[00:00:34] Matty: Michael is a super frequent visitor to The Indy Author Podcast, having previously been on to talk about estate planning for authors, emerging tech for the writing craft, bringing a creative endeavor to an end, how much does it cost to self-publish a book, and he also contributed to the perspectives on personal branding episode.
Matty and Michael's Project Ideas
[00:00:52] Matty: And so, Michael and I, as you will hear in a lot more detail in just a moment, I finally got to meet Michael in person at the Writer's Digest conference in New York City. And we were talking about possible projects there, and this is a takeoff on the perspectives on, it's going to be two perspectives on, and we're hoping to do a series of these where Michael and I are either just chatting about a common topic or in some cases, maybe we'll take opposing views on a topic. That would be very exciting.
But I thought it was appropriate, considering we just got back from a conference, to talk about two perspectives on making the most of in-person events. And Writer's Digest was my first venture back into in-person conferences. But Michael, I know that was not the case for you.
How Has Michael Gone Back to In-person Events
[00:01:35] Matty: Can you just describe how your entree back into in-person events has gone and what events you have been to?
[00:01:42] Michael: Yes, so this was my second venture back into humanity, so to speak. So I went to Inkers Con a month before Writer's Digest. And so that went really well. So I think that helped with Writer's Digest. Inkers Con was a little smaller than Writer's Digest, so I think that helped, just being in a smaller group of people before going to a bigger group of people.
How many people do you think were at each of those events, your best guess?
[00:02:09] Michael: I want to say Writer's Digest, I think it was like 400 people total. Inkers Con I think was maybe 200. But it was hard to get a real handle on how many people were really there.
[00:02:22] Matty: Yeah, it was because there weren't that many times when everybody was together, there were a couple of keynote addresses, but it was hundreds and hundreds of people, no question there.
Conferences in a COVID Context
[00:02:31] Matty: And your entree back into in-person events, how was it similar to or different from what you expected?
[00:02:38] Michael: It was in many ways almost the same. I know that sounds weird, especially when we're in a COVID world, but there were a few people who wore masks, and people who wanted to keep their distance, and everyone was respectful of that. But in general, everybody was in a room breathing on each other and sitting next to each other and just like normal, really.
Writer's Digest had a more explicit COVID policy. They required everyone to wear masks when you were not in a social event or behind closed doors, unless you were a speaker, then you didn't have to wear a mask <while presenting>. And that I think was really the only reminder that we were in a COVID era, but outside of actually being in the conference, things were pretty normal.
[00:03:21] Matty: Yeah, I'll assure the listeners that this is not going to be all COVID all the time during this conversation. I'm trying to think of ways to generalize it beyond COVID. But I will say that the two things that Writer's Digest did, one was to make a mask mandate. The other thing, which I suggested, so I'm so pleased with myself about this, and I had actually stolen this from something that Mark Lefebvre had said about a conference he had been to is the color-coded lanyards. So if you had a red lanyard, it meant basically please don't hug me, and a green lanyard said go ahead, and the yellow lanyard said maybe, but check first. And that made me feel much more comfortable because it avoided that kind of awkward, oh, what do I do? And I think that's even true independent of COVID. I think there's some people who just don't like to be hugged and I think it avoided a lot of that awkwardness about, how do you approach other people? So I was pleased about that. But it felt pretty normal, despite the mask mandate at Writer's Digest, it didn't feel intrusive to me, I guess. How about you?
Managing Your Energy
[00:04:24] Michael: Yeah, I agree. And I didn't spend all of my time at the conference. I got out and went around New York City. And when I did that, no one was wearing masks. New York is back. I was in New York just before everything shut down, and then I was in New York last month, and New York is back. It's just like I remembered it. So I think that helped to kind of balance out the fact that you've got to wear a mask when you're in the conference.
This is one where we can kind of represent different perspectives because I did spend all my time at the conference or in the conference venue. And part of that was more driven by me trying to conserve energy and the fact that I'm an easy train ride from New York. I can just take the train from just a few miles from my house and pop out fortunately at the Moynihan Train Hall. Now I don't have to go through Penn Station. Yay! I hate Penn Station. So I didn't have that incentive of like, I'm in New York and I have to do some stuff, because I can always pop back.
[00:05:23] Matty: And then part of it, which I think I'd like to wrap up our conversation about, was energy management. So I was pretty much either at the conference or I was in the speaker's lounge, which was completely unused, recovering, or I was in my room recovering. In general, would you recommend if people are in a conference that they find ways to remove themselves from that environment every once in a while to recharge?
[00:05:48] Michael: Yeah, it's always a good idea. I think writers by definition are introverts in a way, and sometimes, yeah, you just have to get away from the crowd for a little bit to recharge your batteries. I'm kind of weird. I'm so introverted in every other area of my life, that when I go to writing conferences, I have a lot of energy. I don't mind being an extrovert for a couple of days because I know it's going to end. So I don't mind going back-to-back speaking engagements or back-to-back chatting with people. Because I usually recharge in my room, and I usually am doing some writing and stuff. And I find that as long as I eat well and I try to get as much sleep as possible, I tend to do pretty well during the day.
Pretend You're Your Protagonist
I was talking to somebody, I think it was L.E. DeLano, and we were talking about ways you can get over that introverted shyness, which I think many of the listeners will probably sympathize with. And she was saying, try being your protagonist, on the assumption that most of us are writing protagonists that are probably brave in one way or the other, be brave in that way. But I do think that just pretend like you're not an introvert. Sounds silly, but I think it can work.
[00:06:58] Matty: And the other thing that Writer's Digest did that I really liked, and I have seen this at other conferences is they had those little ribbons that you could attach to your ID that said like Speaker or International Visitor or your genres and things like that. And that was great because it was super easy to walk up to anyone, look at the little ribbons that they attached to their ID, and say, oh, I see you're an international visitor. Where are you from? So that really paved the way.
And I think that the more general suggestion I would make for both of these things, the color-coded of the lanyards and the ribbons, is if you know of something that you think will make you more comfortable or that you think is a good idea, feel free to pass it on to the event organizers, because they may not have thought of it themselves, and they may appreciate the fact that you're offering them a suggestion that will make it better for everyone.
[00:07:46] Michael: No, I agree, that's exactly it, and that makes the conference more enjoyable for everybody. Because if everyone's comfortable and finds ways to get comfortable with what's going on and the policies, then I think it just makes for a better experience for everybody. Because then you don't have to worry about people offering handshakes and then the other person getting uncomfortable and someone getting too close, that sort of thing. Other tips that you brought from your return to in-person events that you think would pave the way for the listeners?
Don't Forget the Business Cards
[00:08:15] Michael: Yeah. I didn't take business cards. I should have taken business cards. I don't know why I didn't because I have a stack of them in my office. But, yeah, there were several times where people were like, oh, can I have your card? And I'm like, I didn't have a card. And normally I'm really good about that. But yeah, business cards I think is really important.
[00:08:34] Matty: I think that that is a symptom of us being so reliant on virtual events now, that business cards feel so 20th century, but there are times when it's really the best way. Especially if you have a fun or somehow attractive or interesting business card to hand out. And I did have business cards with me, but the one thing that I wish I had done, I wish that I had taken some of those business cards and put them out on the table, or the podium at the front of the room for people to take after the talk. In a bunch of cases, people would come up to me after the presentation and it was clear they wanted to talk, but then the room was being prepared for another speaker, and so we all had to disperse. And some of them, I was able to catch up with in the hallway, but not in all cases. So I think if a business card had been there, it would've been good.
And then interestingly, I pretty much used up my old supply of business cards at that event. And one thing I realized is that, I hadn't even realized this when I was handing it out to people, I have a business card that has two sides. One is my fiction platform, and one is my nonfiction platform. So on the one side it says Matty Dalrymple and then on the other side was The Indy Author side of my business.
And the email I had on there was [email protected], which is actually not a legitimate email anymore. Not that I'm that worried about it because there are ways people can find me. But when I was redesigning, I did a couple of little tweaks to my business cards. And one of the things I did, and I'd be curious for your opinion on this. In my old business cards, it had the email address. It had little icons for, follow me on Facebook, follow me on Twitter, whatever. And I took a lot of that out because I thought, if they know my name is Matty Dalrymple and they know that my non-fiction platform is The Indy Author, they're going to be able to find anything. I didn't even end up putting the URLs on there because I thought, there just aren't that many other Matty Dalrymples or The Indy Authors spelled the way I do. So I really pared down. I tried to really focus on making them attractive and eye-catching, taking off a lot of the details.
How Do You Design Your Business Cards?
[00:10:28] Matty: How do you design or how do you direct people to design your business cards?
[00:10:32] Michael: Yeah, that's an interesting suggestion. So I think the most important thing I put on my business card is my photo. Because I think you meet so many people at conferences that you forget what they look like. So I always put my photo on there. And then I put my email address and then I can't remember if it's my fiction email address or my nonfiction. It's probably my Author Level Up one just to keep things simple. And then I put my phone number on there. And people are like, oh my God, why would you put your phone number on there?
And the reason I do it is because you never know, right? So I've only gotten two phone calls in all of the years I've been doing this, in the decade I've been doing this, I've only gotten two phone calls. And one of them was a speaking opportunity. Somebody called me and they're like, hey, I'm with the blah, blah, blah, publishers of this region of the United States. I heard you speak at this speaking event. I would love to know if you'd be interested in coming to speak at our event. And I was like, absolutely. And I pulled out my calendar and said, yeah, which dates are available, and here’s an idea for a topic, I just came up with it up the top of my head. So stuff like that, it can be helpful.
Now, if I were going to a conference where I wanted to license my rights, I would not put my phone number on my business card because you don't want to have copyright negotiation conversations on the phone. That's a big no-no. And then I usually just have a link to my website or websites. I think I have both of my fiction and nonfiction on the same card. But yeah, simplifying is better because to your point, you talked about social media, you never know which social media platforms people use. If you put Twitter on there and they don't use Twitter.
[00:12:10] Matty: Yeah, I find that Facebook works much better for my fiction. Twitter works much better for my nonfiction. And if I just decided to completely close down my fiction activity on Twitter, then I wouldn't be tied to the fact that I had put that little bird on my business card. And honestly, it wouldn't have occurred to me that my email address would change, but I just got to a point where I was having to do something with my business infrastructure where I was going to have to pay an additional fee if I wanted to have both [email protected] and [email protected] and I just picked mattydalrymple.
A Lead to Other Engagements
So I wanted to jump off a little bit on your experience about getting another speaker engagement as a result of having your phone number on your business card. So another place that I realize in retrospect that I underutilized the experience of being a speaker at the Writer's Digest conference is that I haven't done anything that would make that a jumping off point to other speaking engagements. Do you have any tips in that area, especially if I could do them retrospectively now that I'm home?
[00:13:09] Michael: Yeah, yeah, something I did, and it was something I saw another speaker do at a conference once and I thought, oh wow, that's a great idea, is I put together a squeeze page. So for every talk I did at Writer's Digest, I put together a page on my site. I do this for almost all speaking engagements I do. I put a page on my site, and I usually will title it the name of the conference, plus whatever the speaking engagement was. So for Writer's Digest, I think it was WDC Estate Planning or whatever.
And then what I would do on that page is I would say, hey, Writer's Digest attendees. And then what I did is I took a picture of myself at the venue, and I put it on that page. So it actually looked, you know, like, oh yeah, I recognize that fountain. That's in the hotel, in the lobby, right? Yeah. So it builds that connection. And then I said, hey, thanks for hanging out after the show, here are your bonuses.
And then I usually give a book away when I speak. You know, I've got like 80 of them I can afford to give one away. And so I usually will include the links to where they can get it on BookFunnel and the cover. And then if I have resources, I'll list the resources that I mentioned. I'll also allow them to download the PowerPoint presentation if the venue allows that. Sometimes they don't, but if they allow it, I'll allow them to download the presentation. And then at the very bottom I put, I would love to keep in touch. And there's usually a button or something where they can click it to contact me. I found that that's really helpful. And then what I do is in the presentation, I will usually put a QR code at the final slide where they can take a picture of it and then it'll be on their phone.
And I find that that has helped me over the years attract more speaking engagements, because it's like a business card, really. But it gets them onto your website, and then if you can get them onto your website, they'll look around and you never know if somebody's has an important title with a writer's organization or something like that. And they look at it and say, hey, that would be great.
[00:15:09] Matty: So if you go to a conference like Inkers Con or Writer's Digest, I think that both of those would appeal mainly to writers, not readers. Am I assuming correctly?
Michael: Correct.
Matty: So then do you skew your outreach toward looking for additional speaking engagements versus looking for readers of your books?
[00:15:30] Michael: It's a mixture of both. At the end of my slides, what I usually will do is I'll usually put a link to my site, my Author Level Up site. I'll put my email address and then they'll be the QR code. And then however they choose to engage with me after that is great. If they want to buy my books, they can do that. If they want to reach out for speaking, they can do that as well. But I very rarely aggressively hunt for speaking engagements. I've only ever made one pitch. Most of the time they come to me.
[00:15:58] Matty: Oh, nice. That's my dream. I'm going to act on all these tips to get me to that position, too.
Michael: All right.
Matty: I really like the idea about posting a picture of yourself at the conference in a recognizable place. And one of the things that I would do, I would make as a note to myself for other events, is to solicit somebody in the audience to take a picture of me speaking. The one thing I did that I liked is that before my presentation started for my first presentation, I took a picture from the podium showing the laptop, so it showed the title slide of the presentation, and then in the background, the room was filling up. And I took it as close to the beginning time of the presentation as possible, so, you know, many of the seats were filled and looked good. And I got lots of nice interaction on social media with that. Of course, if you could accompany that with a picture of yourself taken by somebody in the audience and then you get it from them afterwards, then that's something I wish I'd done. I think it's ill advised to rely on the host or the venue to be providing that kind of material, that kind of social media fodder for you.
More Ways to Build Connections
[00:17:05] Matty: And the other kind of similar thing in retrospect I realized I paid more attention to is I didn't realize until I got home that there was actually, maybe this was an official thing or maybe it was just an evolving thing, but a hashtag, I think it was WDC2022 or something like that. But I didn't realize that. Other conferences I've been to have really obviously posted that around the venue, like on easels, you'll see that or on all the materials it'll say that. And I wish I'd been more tuned into that because I would've been better about making use of it.
I think that a model of this is Thrillerfest. I realize now how very social media savvy Thrillerfest is, because there are just photo ops everywhere, nice backgrounds that they've set up to encourage people to take selfies of themselves, and the hashtag's really obviously posted. So, that would be something to research ahead of time.
And the other thing you mentioned is, knowing ahead of time whether or not the host will allow you to post a copy of your presentation. That question came up in my first presentation. I was like, oh man, I don't even know what the answer is. And fortunately, there was a management person from the Writer's Digest organization who could say yes, that's fine, you can post the presentation. So anyone who wants to see my presentations on short fiction or podcasting for authors can go to TheIndyAuthor.com and you'll find my Writer's Digest presentations. But knowing that ahead of time, I think is a big help.
[00:18:27] Michael: Yeah, and I love your suggestion and I agree a hundred percent. Something I should have done was have business cards or a handout with the QR code for the talk on there, because what some people were telling me at the end of the conference was, hey, I got your QR code, but for some reason I couldn't download the presentation onto my phone. So it's like a WordPress quirk that I found out that apparently, WordPress doesn't work very well downloading PowerPoints if you're on your phone.
So if I could go back in time, I would've put together on some cheap card stock, or even just like printer paper, I would've put the actual QR code in the link. Because once people go to the next talk, they forget about your QR code, and they forget about your link. So yeah, that's something I think I could have improved when I was in this, but you live and you learn, right?
[00:19:19] Matty: Yeah. One thing I did do is I put TheIndyAuthor.com URL on all the slides for my presentation, which I think helps because you don't want to be on slide three and somebody is now wishing they could go to your website and download the presentation, but they don't know what it is.
[00:19:33] Michael: Yeah. And you mentioned, how to attract speaking engagements. Another thing I do on my site is I have a press page. So on that page, I basically say, I would love to speak at your event. Here are my qualifications. Here are the different events I've spoken at. And then I have actual videos of presentations I've done front and center on that page so that they can see the quality of my presentations. And then I even list and link to some of the major presentations and podcasts that I've been on so that they can go and listen to those. And that does a lot to attract speaking engagements as well.
And another thing I do is I promise on that page, that if you contact me with a speaking engagement, I will respond within 24 to 48 hours.
I don't think that I've done an in-person presentation where a video of the presentation was available for me to share outside the venue, because most of these cases, the host is charging people to hear what I had to say. Do you find you just have enough fodder that you've gotten permission to use to populate your page that way?
[00:20:37] Michael: Yeah, I was fortunate that when I spoke at 20 Books, they recorded that, and put it on YouTube, so I didn't post that, but I obviously have permission because it's on YouTube. So I just embed that on my page. There have been other events where I have asked to shoot like quick clips of myself and it's been fine. Virtual conferences, sometimes I'll ask if I can record the conversation, and some have been perfectly fine with it, and I've posted it on my YouTube channel. You don't need a whole lot. You just need clips so that you can put together a speaker reel. And it can be a one-minute clip here, one minute, clip there, splice it together, just package it so that it makes you look good. And you want to make it as close to what the venue would be getting if they hired you. So that tip has really worked because usually when people reach out to me, they say, hey, I really like that talk you did at 20 Books. Could you do something similar? Or I like that talk you did at Writer's Digest. We'd like something similar with X, Y, Z twist.
[00:21:37] Matty: Do they usually ask for a twist, or do you ever get a request that is basically, we want that exact presentation again, and are there any issues with that?
[00:21:44] Michael: It's usually they want the exact same presentation and I just have to tailor it to their audience. So for example, Writer's Digest I did a talk on self-publishing by your bootstraps, and it was the costs of self-publishing and where to find an editor and all that. I did the almost exact same talk at the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators five days later. I did almost the exact same talk, but I changed a few of the slides because children's book authors obviously have things a little bit different than science fiction, fantasy, romance authors.
And so the tenor and the spirit of the presentation was similar, but a lot of the content was different. But it just helped me that I didn't have to reinvent the wheel. That's the key thing, because if you don't then every venue is going to ask you for a different topic and that's really exhausting. So what I try to do is over the last few years I've built a bank of presentations. So that way, if they come to me, I say, I've got these five presentations. Which one would interest you the most? That saves you prep big time.
[00:22:45] Matty: Yeah. For the presentation on short fiction, I started putting that together from scratch, and then I thought this is ridiculous. And I had done a presentation with Mark Lefebvre for one of the ALLi conferences on short fiction. So I sent him a note and I said, is it okay if I basically copy this? But then I modified it considerably, because when I did the presentation with Mark, it was about traditional publishing, which he had more experience with, and indy publishing, which I had more experience with, and the Writer's Digest presentation was specifically about indy publishing. So it looked quite different, but at least gave me a start.
And I think that you're doing your audience and your host a favor, because if you polished a presentation, why start over? It's kind of silly. Your audience is going to get a suboptimal delivery.
[00:23:31] Michael: Yeah. And another thing I do is I like to brand my presentations pretty similar. Every couple years, I'll change up my branding. It's kind of like changing your living room, you know, you've got to move the furniture around a little bit, but I like to use the same branded PowerPoint presentation, unless the venue supplies a PowerPoint template, which some have, but that just makes things a little bit more cohesive, too.
You had mentioned bootstrapping and finances, and so I'm going to use that as a springboard to the idea of assessing those presentation requests that are going to come in based on what you're going to get out of it. So at the moment, I'm in a frugal period of my author career. And so unless it was a very local venue, I would be less likely to accept a speaking engagement that didn't cover travel and hotel. So can you just give generic advice on when people are weighing those kinds of things, if that's a good limitation to impose, or are you cutting yourself off from opportunities if you look for that kind of benefit?
[00:24:33] Michael: Yeah, I had this thought when I was on the plane back from New York. Yes, in a sense, I think if you're a speaker, it makes perfect sense to ask at least for travel and hotel, because that's expensive. If you can get a speaker fee and negotiate, that's fantastic. But I do think that some people can get unprofessional really quickly when it comes to this sort of thing. My advice is just don't be a dum-dum. You know, don't ask for the moon and the stars. I've been to events where some speakers are just prima donnas, and nobody wants to work with them. You know, they'll invite you to one conference, but then you're not going to get any more speaking engagements.
So you've got to be professional with the venue, if you're going to ask for something like that. And if they don't offer it, then maybe you don't ask for it. Maybe you just turn it down. Because if they could afford it, then they would've offered it to you, right? So, I think travel and hotel, yes, if you can get that's fantastic. If you can't get that, then you would really want to look at the people who were going to be at the conference and figure out if the connections that you could potentially make would help you recoup those costs.
[00:25:41] Michael: So I'll give you an example. I was at a speaking engagement where they paid for the hotel, but they didn't pay for the travel. And so the travel was out of pocket for me. And I was thinking, ah, I don't know about this. But I actually ended up having dinner with someone who was very good at Facebook ads. And just some of the things that person said in passing for me, I recouped my money the next month. So the money I made for the flight, I got that back in spades. So that helped. But if I wasn't able to make that connection, then yeah, I probably would've thought twice about the conference.
And then also there's the programming. Are you going to enjoy the programming? Are you going to get a lot out of it or is the programming all geared toward beginners or that sort of thing, and you don't feel like you're going to get value out of the programming? That's something to consider, too.
[00:26:29] Matty: Yeah, and I think that oftentimes even if the programming seems basic, I tend to go to anything that's talking about podcasting for authors because I'm always curious to hear how other people are presenting that topic. And every once in a while, I'll hear something and I'll think, oh, I never thought of explaining that quite that way, and can brush up my own presentation on the basis of that.
Professionalism is Everything
[00:26:51] Matty: And going back to the negotiation, I suppose that another tack you could take is that if their offer doesn't include something that you consider to be a must have, let them know why, like, I'm sorry, right now I'm not accepting speaking engagements unless they include these things. And you're not putting them in an awkward position because they've already told you what their policy is, but you never know. They might come back and say, oh, we understand. I did do a long-distance presentation once where the official word was that the sponsor would cover two hotel nights, but it would've meant that I would've had to either pay for the extra hotel night or I would've had to travel the day I was presenting. And I sent them a note and I said, is there any chance you could cover a third night because I want to be rested and refreshed when I show up for my first presentation, and they were fine with doing that.
And my goal is always to be the easiest person they have ever worked with before, because exactly as you're saying, I think that almost no one is so desirable that a venue is going to say, oh, sure, they were a big jerk, but let's invite them back anyway.
[00:27:53] Michael: Yeah, yeah. And then professionalism is everything, right? So there's business and then there's professionalism and then there's the quality of your speaking. And you can say, make sure you take care of the business stuff up front, like you asked for an additional night. If there's something that you need that will accommodate you and make sure that you deliver your presentation in the way that is going to knock it out of the park, then you need to ask for that and negotiate it and get it in writing.
But when you show up, you have to show up. You can't just show up and phone it in. And sometimes speakers do that, and I've seen some speakers where they ask for the moon and the stars, they get the moon and the stars, and then they show up and the presentation sucks.
You have to deliver an amazing presentation. Like you have to do your homework and study the venue. Study who's going to be there. Really get to know with a few key questions from the organizer, what they want, what they need, and then you have to show up and over deliver. And if you do that, then that will lead to more engagements. So it's a lot of work.
Finding Out About Your Audience in Advance
[00:28:54] Matty: Yeah, how would you recommend finding out more about your audience in advance? Because I realized that I wasn't entirely clear about how knowledgeable attendees at the Writer's Digest conference, for example, would be about indy publishing terminology.
And so somebody had asked about Libsyn, which is the platform that I use for my podcast, to distribute my podcast. And he said, do they own the rights? Can you describe what that's like? And I said, have you heard of Draft2Digital? Fortunately, this guy had. So I said, Libsyn is like Draft2Digital. As Draft2Digital is to ebooks, Libsyn is to podcasts. It's just a mechanism for getting it out there. But if he had said no, then I would've had to cast about for another analogy, so it's both asking ahead of time and then also reading the audience. You know, if you've said something and everybody's looking at you with puzzled expressions, then realize that maybe you have to readjust your approach a bit.
[00:29:46] Michael: Yeah, what I like to do is I like to ask the organizer. That's the person that's going to know. Especially if they've organized the event in the past, they're going to have a pretty good handle on the experience level of the attendees, that sort of thing. What I found, is if the organizer can't answer the question, it means that the audience generally doesn't have that knowledge base, or it's not a popular topic.
So like, I spoke about estate planning at an event, and it was like five people in the room. But I knew it was going to be five people in the room, so that helped. And I knew that those five people were going to have a mixture of experience with estate planning. So sometimes just understanding the key demographics of people that show up is helpful, too. Age, gender.
[00:30:27] Matty: Yeah, I think that your comment about the five people in the room makes me think of two things. One is you better give the same presentation, whether there are five people in the room or 500. Those five people deserve your best delivery. But the other thing is, and I lucked into this because it was my first time at the Writer's Digest conference. I'm sure I was not known to a lot of the attendees. And both of my presentations were scheduled for one of the smaller breakout rooms, which was fine with me. It actually worked out great because for one of them, it was quite full for the other one, actually, it was all full. There were people standing. And that is such a much better environment to present to than if you're in a gigantic room and there are five people, and they're all sitting in the back. so you have 12 rows of empty seats ahead of you.
So I suppose that if this is something that resonates with people, they could talk to the organizers. It might be worth a conversation about your preferred venue. Like I never really want to present in a giant ballroom, even when I get very big, the giant ballroom is not my preferred venue. Any thought they're about to what extent you can influence the venue you're presenting in?
[00:31:34] Michael: Yeah. You know, I love the big ballroom. I know it's maybe it's just me, because I love the energy. The more people that are in the audience, the more energy there is. I do well with that. Other people don't do well with that.
To me, I always view the actual venue as a challenge. Like it's a kind of a fun challenge. When I walk into the room and I usually the night before I will go and figure out where the rooms are, if the place is open. So I can walk around, and I can go up on stage and I can look across the room and I can figure out, okay, where do I need to stand? Where do I need to avoid? Where are people generally probably going to sit? That sort of thing. I was at one event where the lights were really bright on stage, and you couldn't see people's faces in the audience, which as a speaker, I don't necessarily like that, because that gives me a good indicator of if people are understanding what I'm saying. So stuff like that is really helpful to know.
But yeah, I'm not picky about the rooms. I can work in any room. Just give me any room, as long as the microphone works, as long as the slides work. If it's a tiny little room and I've got to socialize with the attendees a little bit more, it's more of an intimate let's just have a conversation, as opposed to a presentation, I'm cool with that. If it's a gigantic ballroom, I can do that, too. So I think it's fun. I'd see it as a fun thing. But that's maybe a mentality thing. Sometimes I'm an alien, but it's okay.
[00:33:02] Matty: No, I totally know What you're saying about the energy of a large ballroom, especially if it's filled with people. And I think it's more, I'm thinking of a music analogy, where do you want to play the stadium? Or do you want to play the1930s movie theater. I'd rather be playing the 1930s movie theater than the stadium. But I totally see where you're coming from.
[00:33:22] Michael: Yeah, every venue's different, and I think comes down to you picking the venues that you want to speak at. If you're not a big ballroom person, 20 Books is probably not a place you want to speak. So I think as a speaker, you have the choice of choosing the venues that are going to give you energy. And so pick the venues that are going to be the best fit, and I think that works out better for everybody in the end.
[00:33:43] Matty: Yeah, and if you've gone as an attendee, that gives you a leg up because I had informally proposed a presentation on podcasting for authors to an event organizer, and they came back and said, so many of our attendees are readers in this genre, in addition to writers in the genre that author centric things make less sense than genre centric things, which was good information to have.
And the other experience I'll throw out that, that worked out fine, but is something that's hard to practice in advance for an in-person event is AV setup. So the organizers had said that the rooms would be set up for Macs, which I have. That's cool. So I show up with my MacBook Air, and wrong connector. They were set up for a full-size Mac laptop. And so fortunately I was able to Airdrop my presentation to the room presentation. And so there was a super helpful AV guy there. And just treat the AV guys really, really well. Yes, the AV guys and women, because much of your impression is going to depend on how good a job they do. And so treating them like a partner in the presentation and not like the hired help, or something like that, I think is always a good policy.
[00:34:58] Michael: Yes, it is. Yeah, they can make or break your presentation, That's super critical. And a lot of times the AV people will just be at the conference at like the social events and stuff. And I've had a chance to talk to a number of different AV teams. And sometimes they're the most fascinating people at the conference because they travel all over the world to do this stuff. It's really, really fun. I was talking to one guy, he just got back from Thailand, at a speaking engagement, they were doing AV at an engagement in Thailand. Like super cool. They have something, some of the best stories. So if you want somebody to talk to, they’re good people.
[00:35:35] Matty: Another suggestion I would have, we've talked about the importance of having business cards, one of my suggestions would be to bring books. So in the case of a conference that I take the train to in New York City, not so realistic, but sometimes there are hiccups, and one of the benefits of being a speaker is that you hope that your books will be available in the bookstore. And if they're not, that's a drag. And so I would say, always bring copies of your books if it's logistically feasible, even if a bookstore is intending to stock them there, because you never know what's going to happen.
And I actually just had an interesting exchange with someone who was acting as the liaison to the bookstore for another conference I'm going to later in the year. And all the presenters and panelists got this email that said, if you are traditionally published, send us this information and if you're independently published, then bring your books. And I wrote back, and I said, that's weird because my books are available in the same place that they're probably buying their traditionally published authors. And he said, oh, let me check and see if I got that right.
And then I thought about it more. And I wrote back, and I said, I'm thinking that this is probably more a returnable / not returnable question than it is a traditional / indy question. And I said, with many indy authors, my books are not returnable on Ingram, which is the platform that they would order it from. And it would totally make sense to me if the conference book seller didn't want to be purchasing non-returnable books and I'm happy to bring my own.
But that's just something to be aware of. To improve your chances that your books are going to be available in the bookstore, have some copies. Because you might not be able to arrange a consignment situation with the book seller, but you might be able to.
Yeah, that's an interesting point. I just always thought taking your books to a conference would be tough, but if it's like at some point where you can drive to then I think that makes a lot of sense.
[00:37:19] Matty: And you can always just have them in the trunk of your car, and you don't have to bring them into the venue unless it looks like it will be helpful.
[00:37:25] Michael: Go back to the old days, right? Sell books out of your trunk of your car. Make some money doing it. It's all good. Yeah, exactly.
[00:37:30] Matty: Or if the bookstore has laid in a supply and they sell out, no reason you can't sell your books directly, I would imagine. I don't think that would be bad if they've gotten rid of their supply.
[00:37:40] Michael: Yeah, as long as you're following the proper channels and the venue's okay with it, then I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
Matty: Any other general tips before we move to another thing I wanted to chat about?
Michael: Just that the professionalism is everything. People are always watching, no matter where you are, even if you're walking through a hallway by yourself. It's a cliche in the corporate world, they say every day is an interview. I like to think every minute of a writing conference is you're in the spotlight. And so just remember that. Because I've seen people do things that are just like, oh, what? You know, it doesn't make any sense, and it's really unprofessional. But then when the lights are on and they're in big groups, they're fine. And it's just not cool. So just be yourself, really. And just don't be a jerk. If you're a jerk, don't go to writing conferences.
[00:38:29] Matty: Only non-jerks welcome.
[00:38:31] Michael: Yes, exactly.
Make the Time Investment Worth It
Matty: The one thing that I wanted to just chat about briefly is that in several past podcast episodes, I've been speaking to people about in-person author events, and this was normally in a scenario of book signings or author readings and things like that. I think I've had this conversation with Mark Lefebvre. And as you can imagine, Mark is all about in-person events. And when I was speaking to Mark, and this was over like a long period of time, I was saying, I've looked at this, I'm trying to make a living on this, now that I'm not at my corporate job anymore, it shouldn't be a hobby anymore. And I really couldn't justify basically what's usually a day investment. Like even if it's local, you know, you get up, you have to load your books up, you have to drive to the venue. You have to get there early so you'll be sure you're there for it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:39:20] Matty: And when I was talking to Mark, I just didn't feel like attendance at in-person events was worth my time. But, both the Writer's Digest conference, and a couple of in-person author events I've done have made me rethink that.
So the example I'll use is that when Ann Kinnear Book Five came out, it is based at a winery. And there's a local winery that was the inspiration for the setting of the book, and the people there were very helpful to me in terms of providing subject matter expertise. And when the book came out, they invited me to come and do a launch event there, which was very nice of them. And coincidentally, it was the same weekend that months ago, I had arranged with an author friend of mine and her husband to meet me and my husband at that winery just to get together for a drink.
And her books have a wine theme as well. Her whole series has a wine theme. Mine was just a wine theme for this one book. And I said, if it's okay with a venue, do you want to come and do a joint author event with me? Because I thought, in the absolute worst case where nobody shows up for the event, this friend of mine and her husband and my husband and I will just sit around drinking wine for a couple of hours and then we'll go home. And that will be a perfectly nice, pleasant way to spend the afternoon.
And fortunately, that didn't happen. People actually showed up, we sold some books, it was great. But I think I would always try to make it so that in the worst possible case, it was still going to be fun. You know, always invite a friend or invite somebody else to participate as an author, a participating author with you.
But you do get an energy from talking to people in person that you just don't, I hate to say this, in a Zoom meeting, but that you don't just get on Zoom, you don't just get in a virtual event. So I'm just throwing that out as, Mark, I think you've won me over at least for the time being, to the benefit of doing author events.
[00:41:10] Matty: So, Michael, what are your thoughts about that?
Doing the Math
[00:41:13] Michael: Yeah. I actually was doing this, so on my way back from New York, I got stranded in O'Hare Airport, because there were some issues with the flight and maintenance and stuff. So I was at O'Hara airport for six hours. And I was thinking to myself, oh, okay. So when I went to Inkers Con, the same thing happened. My flights got canceled and I couldn't get back to Des Moines where I live. Des Moines is a hard city to fly in and out of because it's so small and there's demand issues. And now with the airlines and stuff going on, they're canceling flights. And so I've had to do some calculus, you know, does it make sense for me to go to this event knowing that I'm probably going to get stranded on my way back?
So for me, it takes me probably like eight hours, maybe a little bit longer to prepare for the presentation, right? So there's the prep work, and that's time that I'm not spending writing novels. I know how many words I'm supposed to write every day. I can do the math. And I know how long, roughly, a speaking engagement's going to take, because then like you said, there's the day of, there's the days that you're at the conference, there's the day you get back, and then you're usually spending a few days of catch up. So you can look at all those hours and figure out, okay, what is this worth in terms of a novel? If I were just at home writing a novel, a speaking engagement might be worth a third of a novel, in terms of how much that costs, and I've done the math and for me, I'm good with sacrificing a third of a novel, for example, one or two times a year, because I'm going to write 10 books in the year, so it's okay.
[00:42:47] Michael: And then from a tax perspective too, the money that I spend and can expense, I can claim that on taxes and get a benefit from that too. And then, you do the math on, okay, might I meet someone who gives me a tip that can help me recoup some of those costs? I think all that has to be in the calculus. And if it is, and if it makes sense, then do it.
I work from home, so I'm home all day, every day, even on the weekends. And so I think it's just good for me to get out of the house and talk to people. And I say that as a textbook INTJ introvert. Like I'm home all the time. And so it's nice, it's nice just to get out and be around among people that have shared interests. So it's a good thing in the long run for me, I think.
[00:43:32] Matty: Yeah, I agree with everything you said in balancing out the price you pay word count-wise for this. And there are times like, I kind of like this Draft2Digital is the equivalent of Libsyn for podcasting analogy, and I don't think I've ever put that in a book, but I think that the people who are reading that book would probably understand that analogy. And you don't get that unless you're getting that kind of feedback from people. Or I've also been talking to people and said, oh, you know what, I'm hearing a theme here that eventually might become a book. And so you add that book that otherwise wouldn't happen as helping to balance out the fact that you're paying some word count price to be at that event.
I'm glad you brought that up because I used to speak on anything people would ask me to speak on. Lately I've only been speaking on a topic that I have a book about. And if I don't, it's usually because the pay is good enough to make me invest my time. And if I do a talk on a topic where I don't have a book, I write a book about it. So that way, then the next time I do it, I can drive people toward a book. I've been very conscious lately of building that bank of presentations, so that I can cut down on my prep work. Because the prep work is what kills me, because almost everything hinges on how well prepared you are for a conference. And if you're not prepared, then the chances of you delivering a great presentation and knocking out of the park are a lot lower.
[00:44:55] Matty: Yeah, and I think that the idea of having that bank of presentation topics and the presentations that go with them is great. And similarly having that bank of successful pitches, because you don't want to start from scratch every time you write a pitch, as you refine that and you're pitching estate planning for authors to somebody else, you don't want to start with a blank slate. You want a library of those pitches that you can tweak as needed for the particular venue.
[00:45:19] Michael: Yeah. It's critical.
[00:45:21] Matty: So I wanted to just wrap up by, we've been talking a little bit about energy and INTJ and delayed flights and things like that. So for some reason I had two podcast interviews scheduled for the Monday after I got back from Writer's Digest. And on Saturday, I could see where this was going to go. And so on Saturday I sent them a note saying, I'm really sorry, you know, I could still do the interviews, but I'm going to be really brain dead, and I think it would be better all-around if we could reschedule, and they were happy to do that.
So my piece of advice would be don't plan for the actual days that you're away, at the event. Plan for the catch-up time and just the recovery time. Is that something that you explicitly factor into your plans?
[00:46:01] Michael: Oh, absolutely. I work like a soldier to try to get my emails and everything in tip top shape before I leave. And I know that things are going to get a little crazy while I'm out. I do answer emails while I'm traveling, especially if it's from readers or something important. Everything else, I'll usually leave for later. When I get back, usually it takes me two or three days to catch up.
I actually do try to write while I'm traveling. So even if it's just a little bit, I'm usually writing on the plane. I'm usually writing in the airport. I'm usually writing in the hotel room the night of. In fact, all but one of the days I was at Writer's Digest, I hit my daily quota of 2200 words per day. So that helps. But then when I get back, usually I don't hit my quota because I'm sleeping. So just do what you can, and you just have to know that some things are going to fall by the wayside while you're gone and just do the best you can to manage that.
But yeah, it's hard to plan. And you really don't want to plan too much while you're at a conference because you kind of want to leave yourself open to spontaneity. You never know if you're going to go to dinner with someone or you're going to go sightseeing or whatever. So you just have to leave your days blank.
Another tip would be arranging with people ahead of time to get together. So you and I had plans to get together that Friday night for dinner, which was super fun and led to this series of two perspectives on. But one of the things that I thought I was going to be able to do is spend more time with the Writer's Digest people, and then I quickly realized that they were way too busy to be socializing with the attendees. So don't count on spending time with the organizers, but definitely ahead of time as possible schedule time with the people you want to make sure you catch up.
It's a great tip. And even just being able to talk to an organizer for a couple of minutes is probably the best you can hope for. That's why looking at the attendee list is so important, because you might see someone you recognize, or you might see somebody who writes on your genre and you're like, oh, I need to make sure I at least connect with that person. It's so important, but it's so difficult for introverts to do, because, oh, I got to introduce myself to this person. At least with writing events, you're in a room full of introverts. It's not like other conferences you go to where you get a bit of a more of a mixture of personalities.
[00:48:14] Matty: Yeah. So cool. Michael, thank you so much. I am very excited at this, which is our first two perspectives on discussion, and hopefully, at least a couple more to come, maybe more. So please let the listeners and viewers know where they can go to find out all about you and all you do online.
[00:48:30] Michael: Yeah, you can find me at AuthorLevelUp.com. That is where you can find all of my non-fiction and my YouTube channel. And then if you're interested in my fiction, you can find that at MichaelLaRonn.com.
[00:48:41] Matty: Very cool. Thank you so much.
[00:48:43] Michael: Thanks, Matty.
[00:00:04] Michael: Hey, Matty. Great to be here.
[00:00:06] Matty: It is great to have you here. I'm just going to give our listeners and viewers a little reminder of your many accomplishments.
About Michael
Michael La Ronn is the author of over 40 science fiction and fantasy novels and self-help books for writers. He also runs the popular YouTube channel, Author Level Up where he publishes weekly advice videos for writers. Michael also serves on the staff of the Alliance of Independent Authors as the US ambassador, and he co-hosts the Ask ALLi Member Q&A Podcast where he answers new writers' most burning questions about self-publishing.
[00:00:34] Matty: Michael is a super frequent visitor to The Indy Author Podcast, having previously been on to talk about estate planning for authors, emerging tech for the writing craft, bringing a creative endeavor to an end, how much does it cost to self-publish a book, and he also contributed to the perspectives on personal branding episode.
Matty and Michael's Project Ideas
[00:00:52] Matty: And so, Michael and I, as you will hear in a lot more detail in just a moment, I finally got to meet Michael in person at the Writer's Digest conference in New York City. And we were talking about possible projects there, and this is a takeoff on the perspectives on, it's going to be two perspectives on, and we're hoping to do a series of these where Michael and I are either just chatting about a common topic or in some cases, maybe we'll take opposing views on a topic. That would be very exciting.
But I thought it was appropriate, considering we just got back from a conference, to talk about two perspectives on making the most of in-person events. And Writer's Digest was my first venture back into in-person conferences. But Michael, I know that was not the case for you.
How Has Michael Gone Back to In-person Events
[00:01:35] Matty: Can you just describe how your entree back into in-person events has gone and what events you have been to?
[00:01:42] Michael: Yes, so this was my second venture back into humanity, so to speak. So I went to Inkers Con a month before Writer's Digest. And so that went really well. So I think that helped with Writer's Digest. Inkers Con was a little smaller than Writer's Digest, so I think that helped, just being in a smaller group of people before going to a bigger group of people.
How many people do you think were at each of those events, your best guess?
[00:02:09] Michael: I want to say Writer's Digest, I think it was like 400 people total. Inkers Con I think was maybe 200. But it was hard to get a real handle on how many people were really there.
[00:02:22] Matty: Yeah, it was because there weren't that many times when everybody was together, there were a couple of keynote addresses, but it was hundreds and hundreds of people, no question there.
Conferences in a COVID Context
[00:02:31] Matty: And your entree back into in-person events, how was it similar to or different from what you expected?
[00:02:38] Michael: It was in many ways almost the same. I know that sounds weird, especially when we're in a COVID world, but there were a few people who wore masks, and people who wanted to keep their distance, and everyone was respectful of that. But in general, everybody was in a room breathing on each other and sitting next to each other and just like normal, really.
Writer's Digest had a more explicit COVID policy. They required everyone to wear masks when you were not in a social event or behind closed doors, unless you were a speaker, then you didn't have to wear a mask <while presenting>. And that I think was really the only reminder that we were in a COVID era, but outside of actually being in the conference, things were pretty normal.
[00:03:21] Matty: Yeah, I'll assure the listeners that this is not going to be all COVID all the time during this conversation. I'm trying to think of ways to generalize it beyond COVID. But I will say that the two things that Writer's Digest did, one was to make a mask mandate. The other thing, which I suggested, so I'm so pleased with myself about this, and I had actually stolen this from something that Mark Lefebvre had said about a conference he had been to is the color-coded lanyards. So if you had a red lanyard, it meant basically please don't hug me, and a green lanyard said go ahead, and the yellow lanyard said maybe, but check first. And that made me feel much more comfortable because it avoided that kind of awkward, oh, what do I do? And I think that's even true independent of COVID. I think there's some people who just don't like to be hugged and I think it avoided a lot of that awkwardness about, how do you approach other people? So I was pleased about that. But it felt pretty normal, despite the mask mandate at Writer's Digest, it didn't feel intrusive to me, I guess. How about you?
Managing Your Energy
[00:04:24] Michael: Yeah, I agree. And I didn't spend all of my time at the conference. I got out and went around New York City. And when I did that, no one was wearing masks. New York is back. I was in New York just before everything shut down, and then I was in New York last month, and New York is back. It's just like I remembered it. So I think that helped to kind of balance out the fact that you've got to wear a mask when you're in the conference.
This is one where we can kind of represent different perspectives because I did spend all my time at the conference or in the conference venue. And part of that was more driven by me trying to conserve energy and the fact that I'm an easy train ride from New York. I can just take the train from just a few miles from my house and pop out fortunately at the Moynihan Train Hall. Now I don't have to go through Penn Station. Yay! I hate Penn Station. So I didn't have that incentive of like, I'm in New York and I have to do some stuff, because I can always pop back.
[00:05:23] Matty: And then part of it, which I think I'd like to wrap up our conversation about, was energy management. So I was pretty much either at the conference or I was in the speaker's lounge, which was completely unused, recovering, or I was in my room recovering. In general, would you recommend if people are in a conference that they find ways to remove themselves from that environment every once in a while to recharge?
[00:05:48] Michael: Yeah, it's always a good idea. I think writers by definition are introverts in a way, and sometimes, yeah, you just have to get away from the crowd for a little bit to recharge your batteries. I'm kind of weird. I'm so introverted in every other area of my life, that when I go to writing conferences, I have a lot of energy. I don't mind being an extrovert for a couple of days because I know it's going to end. So I don't mind going back-to-back speaking engagements or back-to-back chatting with people. Because I usually recharge in my room, and I usually am doing some writing and stuff. And I find that as long as I eat well and I try to get as much sleep as possible, I tend to do pretty well during the day.
Pretend You're Your Protagonist
I was talking to somebody, I think it was L.E. DeLano, and we were talking about ways you can get over that introverted shyness, which I think many of the listeners will probably sympathize with. And she was saying, try being your protagonist, on the assumption that most of us are writing protagonists that are probably brave in one way or the other, be brave in that way. But I do think that just pretend like you're not an introvert. Sounds silly, but I think it can work.
[00:06:58] Matty: And the other thing that Writer's Digest did that I really liked, and I have seen this at other conferences is they had those little ribbons that you could attach to your ID that said like Speaker or International Visitor or your genres and things like that. And that was great because it was super easy to walk up to anyone, look at the little ribbons that they attached to their ID, and say, oh, I see you're an international visitor. Where are you from? So that really paved the way.
And I think that the more general suggestion I would make for both of these things, the color-coded of the lanyards and the ribbons, is if you know of something that you think will make you more comfortable or that you think is a good idea, feel free to pass it on to the event organizers, because they may not have thought of it themselves, and they may appreciate the fact that you're offering them a suggestion that will make it better for everyone.
[00:07:46] Michael: No, I agree, that's exactly it, and that makes the conference more enjoyable for everybody. Because if everyone's comfortable and finds ways to get comfortable with what's going on and the policies, then I think it just makes for a better experience for everybody. Because then you don't have to worry about people offering handshakes and then the other person getting uncomfortable and someone getting too close, that sort of thing. Other tips that you brought from your return to in-person events that you think would pave the way for the listeners?
Don't Forget the Business Cards
[00:08:15] Michael: Yeah. I didn't take business cards. I should have taken business cards. I don't know why I didn't because I have a stack of them in my office. But, yeah, there were several times where people were like, oh, can I have your card? And I'm like, I didn't have a card. And normally I'm really good about that. But yeah, business cards I think is really important.
[00:08:34] Matty: I think that that is a symptom of us being so reliant on virtual events now, that business cards feel so 20th century, but there are times when it's really the best way. Especially if you have a fun or somehow attractive or interesting business card to hand out. And I did have business cards with me, but the one thing that I wish I had done, I wish that I had taken some of those business cards and put them out on the table, or the podium at the front of the room for people to take after the talk. In a bunch of cases, people would come up to me after the presentation and it was clear they wanted to talk, but then the room was being prepared for another speaker, and so we all had to disperse. And some of them, I was able to catch up with in the hallway, but not in all cases. So I think if a business card had been there, it would've been good.
And then interestingly, I pretty much used up my old supply of business cards at that event. And one thing I realized is that, I hadn't even realized this when I was handing it out to people, I have a business card that has two sides. One is my fiction platform, and one is my nonfiction platform. So on the one side it says Matty Dalrymple and then on the other side was The Indy Author side of my business.
And the email I had on there was [email protected], which is actually not a legitimate email anymore. Not that I'm that worried about it because there are ways people can find me. But when I was redesigning, I did a couple of little tweaks to my business cards. And one of the things I did, and I'd be curious for your opinion on this. In my old business cards, it had the email address. It had little icons for, follow me on Facebook, follow me on Twitter, whatever. And I took a lot of that out because I thought, if they know my name is Matty Dalrymple and they know that my non-fiction platform is The Indy Author, they're going to be able to find anything. I didn't even end up putting the URLs on there because I thought, there just aren't that many other Matty Dalrymples or The Indy Authors spelled the way I do. So I really pared down. I tried to really focus on making them attractive and eye-catching, taking off a lot of the details.
How Do You Design Your Business Cards?
[00:10:28] Matty: How do you design or how do you direct people to design your business cards?
[00:10:32] Michael: Yeah, that's an interesting suggestion. So I think the most important thing I put on my business card is my photo. Because I think you meet so many people at conferences that you forget what they look like. So I always put my photo on there. And then I put my email address and then I can't remember if it's my fiction email address or my nonfiction. It's probably my Author Level Up one just to keep things simple. And then I put my phone number on there. And people are like, oh my God, why would you put your phone number on there?
And the reason I do it is because you never know, right? So I've only gotten two phone calls in all of the years I've been doing this, in the decade I've been doing this, I've only gotten two phone calls. And one of them was a speaking opportunity. Somebody called me and they're like, hey, I'm with the blah, blah, blah, publishers of this region of the United States. I heard you speak at this speaking event. I would love to know if you'd be interested in coming to speak at our event. And I was like, absolutely. And I pulled out my calendar and said, yeah, which dates are available, and here’s an idea for a topic, I just came up with it up the top of my head. So stuff like that, it can be helpful.
Now, if I were going to a conference where I wanted to license my rights, I would not put my phone number on my business card because you don't want to have copyright negotiation conversations on the phone. That's a big no-no. And then I usually just have a link to my website or websites. I think I have both of my fiction and nonfiction on the same card. But yeah, simplifying is better because to your point, you talked about social media, you never know which social media platforms people use. If you put Twitter on there and they don't use Twitter.
[00:12:10] Matty: Yeah, I find that Facebook works much better for my fiction. Twitter works much better for my nonfiction. And if I just decided to completely close down my fiction activity on Twitter, then I wouldn't be tied to the fact that I had put that little bird on my business card. And honestly, it wouldn't have occurred to me that my email address would change, but I just got to a point where I was having to do something with my business infrastructure where I was going to have to pay an additional fee if I wanted to have both [email protected] and [email protected] and I just picked mattydalrymple.
A Lead to Other Engagements
So I wanted to jump off a little bit on your experience about getting another speaker engagement as a result of having your phone number on your business card. So another place that I realize in retrospect that I underutilized the experience of being a speaker at the Writer's Digest conference is that I haven't done anything that would make that a jumping off point to other speaking engagements. Do you have any tips in that area, especially if I could do them retrospectively now that I'm home?
[00:13:09] Michael: Yeah, yeah, something I did, and it was something I saw another speaker do at a conference once and I thought, oh wow, that's a great idea, is I put together a squeeze page. So for every talk I did at Writer's Digest, I put together a page on my site. I do this for almost all speaking engagements I do. I put a page on my site, and I usually will title it the name of the conference, plus whatever the speaking engagement was. So for Writer's Digest, I think it was WDC Estate Planning or whatever.
And then what I would do on that page is I would say, hey, Writer's Digest attendees. And then what I did is I took a picture of myself at the venue, and I put it on that page. So it actually looked, you know, like, oh yeah, I recognize that fountain. That's in the hotel, in the lobby, right? Yeah. So it builds that connection. And then I said, hey, thanks for hanging out after the show, here are your bonuses.
And then I usually give a book away when I speak. You know, I've got like 80 of them I can afford to give one away. And so I usually will include the links to where they can get it on BookFunnel and the cover. And then if I have resources, I'll list the resources that I mentioned. I'll also allow them to download the PowerPoint presentation if the venue allows that. Sometimes they don't, but if they allow it, I'll allow them to download the presentation. And then at the very bottom I put, I would love to keep in touch. And there's usually a button or something where they can click it to contact me. I found that that's really helpful. And then what I do is in the presentation, I will usually put a QR code at the final slide where they can take a picture of it and then it'll be on their phone.
And I find that that has helped me over the years attract more speaking engagements, because it's like a business card, really. But it gets them onto your website, and then if you can get them onto your website, they'll look around and you never know if somebody's has an important title with a writer's organization or something like that. And they look at it and say, hey, that would be great.
[00:15:09] Matty: So if you go to a conference like Inkers Con or Writer's Digest, I think that both of those would appeal mainly to writers, not readers. Am I assuming correctly?
Michael: Correct.
Matty: So then do you skew your outreach toward looking for additional speaking engagements versus looking for readers of your books?
[00:15:30] Michael: It's a mixture of both. At the end of my slides, what I usually will do is I'll usually put a link to my site, my Author Level Up site. I'll put my email address and then they'll be the QR code. And then however they choose to engage with me after that is great. If they want to buy my books, they can do that. If they want to reach out for speaking, they can do that as well. But I very rarely aggressively hunt for speaking engagements. I've only ever made one pitch. Most of the time they come to me.
[00:15:58] Matty: Oh, nice. That's my dream. I'm going to act on all these tips to get me to that position, too.
Michael: All right.
Matty: I really like the idea about posting a picture of yourself at the conference in a recognizable place. And one of the things that I would do, I would make as a note to myself for other events, is to solicit somebody in the audience to take a picture of me speaking. The one thing I did that I liked is that before my presentation started for my first presentation, I took a picture from the podium showing the laptop, so it showed the title slide of the presentation, and then in the background, the room was filling up. And I took it as close to the beginning time of the presentation as possible, so, you know, many of the seats were filled and looked good. And I got lots of nice interaction on social media with that. Of course, if you could accompany that with a picture of yourself taken by somebody in the audience and then you get it from them afterwards, then that's something I wish I'd done. I think it's ill advised to rely on the host or the venue to be providing that kind of material, that kind of social media fodder for you.
More Ways to Build Connections
[00:17:05] Matty: And the other kind of similar thing in retrospect I realized I paid more attention to is I didn't realize until I got home that there was actually, maybe this was an official thing or maybe it was just an evolving thing, but a hashtag, I think it was WDC2022 or something like that. But I didn't realize that. Other conferences I've been to have really obviously posted that around the venue, like on easels, you'll see that or on all the materials it'll say that. And I wish I'd been more tuned into that because I would've been better about making use of it.
I think that a model of this is Thrillerfest. I realize now how very social media savvy Thrillerfest is, because there are just photo ops everywhere, nice backgrounds that they've set up to encourage people to take selfies of themselves, and the hashtag's really obviously posted. So, that would be something to research ahead of time.
And the other thing you mentioned is, knowing ahead of time whether or not the host will allow you to post a copy of your presentation. That question came up in my first presentation. I was like, oh man, I don't even know what the answer is. And fortunately, there was a management person from the Writer's Digest organization who could say yes, that's fine, you can post the presentation. So anyone who wants to see my presentations on short fiction or podcasting for authors can go to TheIndyAuthor.com and you'll find my Writer's Digest presentations. But knowing that ahead of time, I think is a big help.
[00:18:27] Michael: Yeah, and I love your suggestion and I agree a hundred percent. Something I should have done was have business cards or a handout with the QR code for the talk on there, because what some people were telling me at the end of the conference was, hey, I got your QR code, but for some reason I couldn't download the presentation onto my phone. So it's like a WordPress quirk that I found out that apparently, WordPress doesn't work very well downloading PowerPoints if you're on your phone.
So if I could go back in time, I would've put together on some cheap card stock, or even just like printer paper, I would've put the actual QR code in the link. Because once people go to the next talk, they forget about your QR code, and they forget about your link. So yeah, that's something I think I could have improved when I was in this, but you live and you learn, right?
[00:19:19] Matty: Yeah. One thing I did do is I put TheIndyAuthor.com URL on all the slides for my presentation, which I think helps because you don't want to be on slide three and somebody is now wishing they could go to your website and download the presentation, but they don't know what it is.
[00:19:33] Michael: Yeah. And you mentioned, how to attract speaking engagements. Another thing I do on my site is I have a press page. So on that page, I basically say, I would love to speak at your event. Here are my qualifications. Here are the different events I've spoken at. And then I have actual videos of presentations I've done front and center on that page so that they can see the quality of my presentations. And then I even list and link to some of the major presentations and podcasts that I've been on so that they can go and listen to those. And that does a lot to attract speaking engagements as well.
And another thing I do is I promise on that page, that if you contact me with a speaking engagement, I will respond within 24 to 48 hours.
I don't think that I've done an in-person presentation where a video of the presentation was available for me to share outside the venue, because most of these cases, the host is charging people to hear what I had to say. Do you find you just have enough fodder that you've gotten permission to use to populate your page that way?
[00:20:37] Michael: Yeah, I was fortunate that when I spoke at 20 Books, they recorded that, and put it on YouTube, so I didn't post that, but I obviously have permission because it's on YouTube. So I just embed that on my page. There have been other events where I have asked to shoot like quick clips of myself and it's been fine. Virtual conferences, sometimes I'll ask if I can record the conversation, and some have been perfectly fine with it, and I've posted it on my YouTube channel. You don't need a whole lot. You just need clips so that you can put together a speaker reel. And it can be a one-minute clip here, one minute, clip there, splice it together, just package it so that it makes you look good. And you want to make it as close to what the venue would be getting if they hired you. So that tip has really worked because usually when people reach out to me, they say, hey, I really like that talk you did at 20 Books. Could you do something similar? Or I like that talk you did at Writer's Digest. We'd like something similar with X, Y, Z twist.
[00:21:37] Matty: Do they usually ask for a twist, or do you ever get a request that is basically, we want that exact presentation again, and are there any issues with that?
[00:21:44] Michael: It's usually they want the exact same presentation and I just have to tailor it to their audience. So for example, Writer's Digest I did a talk on self-publishing by your bootstraps, and it was the costs of self-publishing and where to find an editor and all that. I did the almost exact same talk at the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators five days later. I did almost the exact same talk, but I changed a few of the slides because children's book authors obviously have things a little bit different than science fiction, fantasy, romance authors.
And so the tenor and the spirit of the presentation was similar, but a lot of the content was different. But it just helped me that I didn't have to reinvent the wheel. That's the key thing, because if you don't then every venue is going to ask you for a different topic and that's really exhausting. So what I try to do is over the last few years I've built a bank of presentations. So that way, if they come to me, I say, I've got these five presentations. Which one would interest you the most? That saves you prep big time.
[00:22:45] Matty: Yeah. For the presentation on short fiction, I started putting that together from scratch, and then I thought this is ridiculous. And I had done a presentation with Mark Lefebvre for one of the ALLi conferences on short fiction. So I sent him a note and I said, is it okay if I basically copy this? But then I modified it considerably, because when I did the presentation with Mark, it was about traditional publishing, which he had more experience with, and indy publishing, which I had more experience with, and the Writer's Digest presentation was specifically about indy publishing. So it looked quite different, but at least gave me a start.
And I think that you're doing your audience and your host a favor, because if you polished a presentation, why start over? It's kind of silly. Your audience is going to get a suboptimal delivery.
[00:23:31] Michael: Yeah. And another thing I do is I like to brand my presentations pretty similar. Every couple years, I'll change up my branding. It's kind of like changing your living room, you know, you've got to move the furniture around a little bit, but I like to use the same branded PowerPoint presentation, unless the venue supplies a PowerPoint template, which some have, but that just makes things a little bit more cohesive, too.
You had mentioned bootstrapping and finances, and so I'm going to use that as a springboard to the idea of assessing those presentation requests that are going to come in based on what you're going to get out of it. So at the moment, I'm in a frugal period of my author career. And so unless it was a very local venue, I would be less likely to accept a speaking engagement that didn't cover travel and hotel. So can you just give generic advice on when people are weighing those kinds of things, if that's a good limitation to impose, or are you cutting yourself off from opportunities if you look for that kind of benefit?
[00:24:33] Michael: Yeah, I had this thought when I was on the plane back from New York. Yes, in a sense, I think if you're a speaker, it makes perfect sense to ask at least for travel and hotel, because that's expensive. If you can get a speaker fee and negotiate, that's fantastic. But I do think that some people can get unprofessional really quickly when it comes to this sort of thing. My advice is just don't be a dum-dum. You know, don't ask for the moon and the stars. I've been to events where some speakers are just prima donnas, and nobody wants to work with them. You know, they'll invite you to one conference, but then you're not going to get any more speaking engagements.
So you've got to be professional with the venue, if you're going to ask for something like that. And if they don't offer it, then maybe you don't ask for it. Maybe you just turn it down. Because if they could afford it, then they would've offered it to you, right? So, I think travel and hotel, yes, if you can get that's fantastic. If you can't get that, then you would really want to look at the people who were going to be at the conference and figure out if the connections that you could potentially make would help you recoup those costs.
[00:25:41] Michael: So I'll give you an example. I was at a speaking engagement where they paid for the hotel, but they didn't pay for the travel. And so the travel was out of pocket for me. And I was thinking, ah, I don't know about this. But I actually ended up having dinner with someone who was very good at Facebook ads. And just some of the things that person said in passing for me, I recouped my money the next month. So the money I made for the flight, I got that back in spades. So that helped. But if I wasn't able to make that connection, then yeah, I probably would've thought twice about the conference.
And then also there's the programming. Are you going to enjoy the programming? Are you going to get a lot out of it or is the programming all geared toward beginners or that sort of thing, and you don't feel like you're going to get value out of the programming? That's something to consider, too.
[00:26:29] Matty: Yeah, and I think that oftentimes even if the programming seems basic, I tend to go to anything that's talking about podcasting for authors because I'm always curious to hear how other people are presenting that topic. And every once in a while, I'll hear something and I'll think, oh, I never thought of explaining that quite that way, and can brush up my own presentation on the basis of that.
Professionalism is Everything
[00:26:51] Matty: And going back to the negotiation, I suppose that another tack you could take is that if their offer doesn't include something that you consider to be a must have, let them know why, like, I'm sorry, right now I'm not accepting speaking engagements unless they include these things. And you're not putting them in an awkward position because they've already told you what their policy is, but you never know. They might come back and say, oh, we understand. I did do a long-distance presentation once where the official word was that the sponsor would cover two hotel nights, but it would've meant that I would've had to either pay for the extra hotel night or I would've had to travel the day I was presenting. And I sent them a note and I said, is there any chance you could cover a third night because I want to be rested and refreshed when I show up for my first presentation, and they were fine with doing that.
And my goal is always to be the easiest person they have ever worked with before, because exactly as you're saying, I think that almost no one is so desirable that a venue is going to say, oh, sure, they were a big jerk, but let's invite them back anyway.
[00:27:53] Michael: Yeah, yeah. And then professionalism is everything, right? So there's business and then there's professionalism and then there's the quality of your speaking. And you can say, make sure you take care of the business stuff up front, like you asked for an additional night. If there's something that you need that will accommodate you and make sure that you deliver your presentation in the way that is going to knock it out of the park, then you need to ask for that and negotiate it and get it in writing.
But when you show up, you have to show up. You can't just show up and phone it in. And sometimes speakers do that, and I've seen some speakers where they ask for the moon and the stars, they get the moon and the stars, and then they show up and the presentation sucks.
You have to deliver an amazing presentation. Like you have to do your homework and study the venue. Study who's going to be there. Really get to know with a few key questions from the organizer, what they want, what they need, and then you have to show up and over deliver. And if you do that, then that will lead to more engagements. So it's a lot of work.
Finding Out About Your Audience in Advance
[00:28:54] Matty: Yeah, how would you recommend finding out more about your audience in advance? Because I realized that I wasn't entirely clear about how knowledgeable attendees at the Writer's Digest conference, for example, would be about indy publishing terminology.
And so somebody had asked about Libsyn, which is the platform that I use for my podcast, to distribute my podcast. And he said, do they own the rights? Can you describe what that's like? And I said, have you heard of Draft2Digital? Fortunately, this guy had. So I said, Libsyn is like Draft2Digital. As Draft2Digital is to ebooks, Libsyn is to podcasts. It's just a mechanism for getting it out there. But if he had said no, then I would've had to cast about for another analogy, so it's both asking ahead of time and then also reading the audience. You know, if you've said something and everybody's looking at you with puzzled expressions, then realize that maybe you have to readjust your approach a bit.
[00:29:46] Michael: Yeah, what I like to do is I like to ask the organizer. That's the person that's going to know. Especially if they've organized the event in the past, they're going to have a pretty good handle on the experience level of the attendees, that sort of thing. What I found, is if the organizer can't answer the question, it means that the audience generally doesn't have that knowledge base, or it's not a popular topic.
So like, I spoke about estate planning at an event, and it was like five people in the room. But I knew it was going to be five people in the room, so that helped. And I knew that those five people were going to have a mixture of experience with estate planning. So sometimes just understanding the key demographics of people that show up is helpful, too. Age, gender.
[00:30:27] Matty: Yeah, I think that your comment about the five people in the room makes me think of two things. One is you better give the same presentation, whether there are five people in the room or 500. Those five people deserve your best delivery. But the other thing is, and I lucked into this because it was my first time at the Writer's Digest conference. I'm sure I was not known to a lot of the attendees. And both of my presentations were scheduled for one of the smaller breakout rooms, which was fine with me. It actually worked out great because for one of them, it was quite full for the other one, actually, it was all full. There were people standing. And that is such a much better environment to present to than if you're in a gigantic room and there are five people, and they're all sitting in the back. so you have 12 rows of empty seats ahead of you.
So I suppose that if this is something that resonates with people, they could talk to the organizers. It might be worth a conversation about your preferred venue. Like I never really want to present in a giant ballroom, even when I get very big, the giant ballroom is not my preferred venue. Any thought they're about to what extent you can influence the venue you're presenting in?
[00:31:34] Michael: Yeah. You know, I love the big ballroom. I know it's maybe it's just me, because I love the energy. The more people that are in the audience, the more energy there is. I do well with that. Other people don't do well with that.
To me, I always view the actual venue as a challenge. Like it's a kind of a fun challenge. When I walk into the room and I usually the night before I will go and figure out where the rooms are, if the place is open. So I can walk around, and I can go up on stage and I can look across the room and I can figure out, okay, where do I need to stand? Where do I need to avoid? Where are people generally probably going to sit? That sort of thing. I was at one event where the lights were really bright on stage, and you couldn't see people's faces in the audience, which as a speaker, I don't necessarily like that, because that gives me a good indicator of if people are understanding what I'm saying. So stuff like that is really helpful to know.
But yeah, I'm not picky about the rooms. I can work in any room. Just give me any room, as long as the microphone works, as long as the slides work. If it's a tiny little room and I've got to socialize with the attendees a little bit more, it's more of an intimate let's just have a conversation, as opposed to a presentation, I'm cool with that. If it's a gigantic ballroom, I can do that, too. So I think it's fun. I'd see it as a fun thing. But that's maybe a mentality thing. Sometimes I'm an alien, but it's okay.
[00:33:02] Matty: No, I totally know What you're saying about the energy of a large ballroom, especially if it's filled with people. And I think it's more, I'm thinking of a music analogy, where do you want to play the stadium? Or do you want to play the1930s movie theater. I'd rather be playing the 1930s movie theater than the stadium. But I totally see where you're coming from.
[00:33:22] Michael: Yeah, every venue's different, and I think comes down to you picking the venues that you want to speak at. If you're not a big ballroom person, 20 Books is probably not a place you want to speak. So I think as a speaker, you have the choice of choosing the venues that are going to give you energy. And so pick the venues that are going to be the best fit, and I think that works out better for everybody in the end.
[00:33:43] Matty: Yeah, and if you've gone as an attendee, that gives you a leg up because I had informally proposed a presentation on podcasting for authors to an event organizer, and they came back and said, so many of our attendees are readers in this genre, in addition to writers in the genre that author centric things make less sense than genre centric things, which was good information to have.
And the other experience I'll throw out that, that worked out fine, but is something that's hard to practice in advance for an in-person event is AV setup. So the organizers had said that the rooms would be set up for Macs, which I have. That's cool. So I show up with my MacBook Air, and wrong connector. They were set up for a full-size Mac laptop. And so fortunately I was able to Airdrop my presentation to the room presentation. And so there was a super helpful AV guy there. And just treat the AV guys really, really well. Yes, the AV guys and women, because much of your impression is going to depend on how good a job they do. And so treating them like a partner in the presentation and not like the hired help, or something like that, I think is always a good policy.
[00:34:58] Michael: Yes, it is. Yeah, they can make or break your presentation, That's super critical. And a lot of times the AV people will just be at the conference at like the social events and stuff. And I've had a chance to talk to a number of different AV teams. And sometimes they're the most fascinating people at the conference because they travel all over the world to do this stuff. It's really, really fun. I was talking to one guy, he just got back from Thailand, at a speaking engagement, they were doing AV at an engagement in Thailand. Like super cool. They have something, some of the best stories. So if you want somebody to talk to, they’re good people.
[00:35:35] Matty: Another suggestion I would have, we've talked about the importance of having business cards, one of my suggestions would be to bring books. So in the case of a conference that I take the train to in New York City, not so realistic, but sometimes there are hiccups, and one of the benefits of being a speaker is that you hope that your books will be available in the bookstore. And if they're not, that's a drag. And so I would say, always bring copies of your books if it's logistically feasible, even if a bookstore is intending to stock them there, because you never know what's going to happen.
And I actually just had an interesting exchange with someone who was acting as the liaison to the bookstore for another conference I'm going to later in the year. And all the presenters and panelists got this email that said, if you are traditionally published, send us this information and if you're independently published, then bring your books. And I wrote back, and I said, that's weird because my books are available in the same place that they're probably buying their traditionally published authors. And he said, oh, let me check and see if I got that right.
And then I thought about it more. And I wrote back, and I said, I'm thinking that this is probably more a returnable / not returnable question than it is a traditional / indy question. And I said, with many indy authors, my books are not returnable on Ingram, which is the platform that they would order it from. And it would totally make sense to me if the conference book seller didn't want to be purchasing non-returnable books and I'm happy to bring my own.
But that's just something to be aware of. To improve your chances that your books are going to be available in the bookstore, have some copies. Because you might not be able to arrange a consignment situation with the book seller, but you might be able to.
Yeah, that's an interesting point. I just always thought taking your books to a conference would be tough, but if it's like at some point where you can drive to then I think that makes a lot of sense.
[00:37:19] Matty: And you can always just have them in the trunk of your car, and you don't have to bring them into the venue unless it looks like it will be helpful.
[00:37:25] Michael: Go back to the old days, right? Sell books out of your trunk of your car. Make some money doing it. It's all good. Yeah, exactly.
[00:37:30] Matty: Or if the bookstore has laid in a supply and they sell out, no reason you can't sell your books directly, I would imagine. I don't think that would be bad if they've gotten rid of their supply.
[00:37:40] Michael: Yeah, as long as you're following the proper channels and the venue's okay with it, then I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
Matty: Any other general tips before we move to another thing I wanted to chat about?
Michael: Just that the professionalism is everything. People are always watching, no matter where you are, even if you're walking through a hallway by yourself. It's a cliche in the corporate world, they say every day is an interview. I like to think every minute of a writing conference is you're in the spotlight. And so just remember that. Because I've seen people do things that are just like, oh, what? You know, it doesn't make any sense, and it's really unprofessional. But then when the lights are on and they're in big groups, they're fine. And it's just not cool. So just be yourself, really. And just don't be a jerk. If you're a jerk, don't go to writing conferences.
[00:38:29] Matty: Only non-jerks welcome.
[00:38:31] Michael: Yes, exactly.
Make the Time Investment Worth It
Matty: The one thing that I wanted to just chat about briefly is that in several past podcast episodes, I've been speaking to people about in-person author events, and this was normally in a scenario of book signings or author readings and things like that. I think I've had this conversation with Mark Lefebvre. And as you can imagine, Mark is all about in-person events. And when I was speaking to Mark, and this was over like a long period of time, I was saying, I've looked at this, I'm trying to make a living on this, now that I'm not at my corporate job anymore, it shouldn't be a hobby anymore. And I really couldn't justify basically what's usually a day investment. Like even if it's local, you know, you get up, you have to load your books up, you have to drive to the venue. You have to get there early so you'll be sure you're there for it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:39:20] Matty: And when I was talking to Mark, I just didn't feel like attendance at in-person events was worth my time. But, both the Writer's Digest conference, and a couple of in-person author events I've done have made me rethink that.
So the example I'll use is that when Ann Kinnear Book Five came out, it is based at a winery. And there's a local winery that was the inspiration for the setting of the book, and the people there were very helpful to me in terms of providing subject matter expertise. And when the book came out, they invited me to come and do a launch event there, which was very nice of them. And coincidentally, it was the same weekend that months ago, I had arranged with an author friend of mine and her husband to meet me and my husband at that winery just to get together for a drink.
And her books have a wine theme as well. Her whole series has a wine theme. Mine was just a wine theme for this one book. And I said, if it's okay with a venue, do you want to come and do a joint author event with me? Because I thought, in the absolute worst case where nobody shows up for the event, this friend of mine and her husband and my husband and I will just sit around drinking wine for a couple of hours and then we'll go home. And that will be a perfectly nice, pleasant way to spend the afternoon.
And fortunately, that didn't happen. People actually showed up, we sold some books, it was great. But I think I would always try to make it so that in the worst possible case, it was still going to be fun. You know, always invite a friend or invite somebody else to participate as an author, a participating author with you.
But you do get an energy from talking to people in person that you just don't, I hate to say this, in a Zoom meeting, but that you don't just get on Zoom, you don't just get in a virtual event. So I'm just throwing that out as, Mark, I think you've won me over at least for the time being, to the benefit of doing author events.
[00:41:10] Matty: So, Michael, what are your thoughts about that?
Doing the Math
[00:41:13] Michael: Yeah. I actually was doing this, so on my way back from New York, I got stranded in O'Hare Airport, because there were some issues with the flight and maintenance and stuff. So I was at O'Hara airport for six hours. And I was thinking to myself, oh, okay. So when I went to Inkers Con, the same thing happened. My flights got canceled and I couldn't get back to Des Moines where I live. Des Moines is a hard city to fly in and out of because it's so small and there's demand issues. And now with the airlines and stuff going on, they're canceling flights. And so I've had to do some calculus, you know, does it make sense for me to go to this event knowing that I'm probably going to get stranded on my way back?
So for me, it takes me probably like eight hours, maybe a little bit longer to prepare for the presentation, right? So there's the prep work, and that's time that I'm not spending writing novels. I know how many words I'm supposed to write every day. I can do the math. And I know how long, roughly, a speaking engagement's going to take, because then like you said, there's the day of, there's the days that you're at the conference, there's the day you get back, and then you're usually spending a few days of catch up. So you can look at all those hours and figure out, okay, what is this worth in terms of a novel? If I were just at home writing a novel, a speaking engagement might be worth a third of a novel, in terms of how much that costs, and I've done the math and for me, I'm good with sacrificing a third of a novel, for example, one or two times a year, because I'm going to write 10 books in the year, so it's okay.
[00:42:47] Michael: And then from a tax perspective too, the money that I spend and can expense, I can claim that on taxes and get a benefit from that too. And then, you do the math on, okay, might I meet someone who gives me a tip that can help me recoup some of those costs? I think all that has to be in the calculus. And if it is, and if it makes sense, then do it.
I work from home, so I'm home all day, every day, even on the weekends. And so I think it's just good for me to get out of the house and talk to people. And I say that as a textbook INTJ introvert. Like I'm home all the time. And so it's nice, it's nice just to get out and be around among people that have shared interests. So it's a good thing in the long run for me, I think.
[00:43:32] Matty: Yeah, I agree with everything you said in balancing out the price you pay word count-wise for this. And there are times like, I kind of like this Draft2Digital is the equivalent of Libsyn for podcasting analogy, and I don't think I've ever put that in a book, but I think that the people who are reading that book would probably understand that analogy. And you don't get that unless you're getting that kind of feedback from people. Or I've also been talking to people and said, oh, you know what, I'm hearing a theme here that eventually might become a book. And so you add that book that otherwise wouldn't happen as helping to balance out the fact that you're paying some word count price to be at that event.
I'm glad you brought that up because I used to speak on anything people would ask me to speak on. Lately I've only been speaking on a topic that I have a book about. And if I don't, it's usually because the pay is good enough to make me invest my time. And if I do a talk on a topic where I don't have a book, I write a book about it. So that way, then the next time I do it, I can drive people toward a book. I've been very conscious lately of building that bank of presentations, so that I can cut down on my prep work. Because the prep work is what kills me, because almost everything hinges on how well prepared you are for a conference. And if you're not prepared, then the chances of you delivering a great presentation and knocking out of the park are a lot lower.
[00:44:55] Matty: Yeah, and I think that the idea of having that bank of presentation topics and the presentations that go with them is great. And similarly having that bank of successful pitches, because you don't want to start from scratch every time you write a pitch, as you refine that and you're pitching estate planning for authors to somebody else, you don't want to start with a blank slate. You want a library of those pitches that you can tweak as needed for the particular venue.
[00:45:19] Michael: Yeah. It's critical.
[00:45:21] Matty: So I wanted to just wrap up by, we've been talking a little bit about energy and INTJ and delayed flights and things like that. So for some reason I had two podcast interviews scheduled for the Monday after I got back from Writer's Digest. And on Saturday, I could see where this was going to go. And so on Saturday I sent them a note saying, I'm really sorry, you know, I could still do the interviews, but I'm going to be really brain dead, and I think it would be better all-around if we could reschedule, and they were happy to do that.
So my piece of advice would be don't plan for the actual days that you're away, at the event. Plan for the catch-up time and just the recovery time. Is that something that you explicitly factor into your plans?
[00:46:01] Michael: Oh, absolutely. I work like a soldier to try to get my emails and everything in tip top shape before I leave. And I know that things are going to get a little crazy while I'm out. I do answer emails while I'm traveling, especially if it's from readers or something important. Everything else, I'll usually leave for later. When I get back, usually it takes me two or three days to catch up.
I actually do try to write while I'm traveling. So even if it's just a little bit, I'm usually writing on the plane. I'm usually writing in the airport. I'm usually writing in the hotel room the night of. In fact, all but one of the days I was at Writer's Digest, I hit my daily quota of 2200 words per day. So that helps. But then when I get back, usually I don't hit my quota because I'm sleeping. So just do what you can, and you just have to know that some things are going to fall by the wayside while you're gone and just do the best you can to manage that.
But yeah, it's hard to plan. And you really don't want to plan too much while you're at a conference because you kind of want to leave yourself open to spontaneity. You never know if you're going to go to dinner with someone or you're going to go sightseeing or whatever. So you just have to leave your days blank.
Another tip would be arranging with people ahead of time to get together. So you and I had plans to get together that Friday night for dinner, which was super fun and led to this series of two perspectives on. But one of the things that I thought I was going to be able to do is spend more time with the Writer's Digest people, and then I quickly realized that they were way too busy to be socializing with the attendees. So don't count on spending time with the organizers, but definitely ahead of time as possible schedule time with the people you want to make sure you catch up.
It's a great tip. And even just being able to talk to an organizer for a couple of minutes is probably the best you can hope for. That's why looking at the attendee list is so important, because you might see someone you recognize, or you might see somebody who writes on your genre and you're like, oh, I need to make sure I at least connect with that person. It's so important, but it's so difficult for introverts to do, because, oh, I got to introduce myself to this person. At least with writing events, you're in a room full of introverts. It's not like other conferences you go to where you get a bit of a more of a mixture of personalities.
[00:48:14] Matty: Yeah. So cool. Michael, thank you so much. I am very excited at this, which is our first two perspectives on discussion, and hopefully, at least a couple more to come, maybe more. So please let the listeners and viewers know where they can go to find out all about you and all you do online.
[00:48:30] Michael: Yeah, you can find me at AuthorLevelUp.com. That is where you can find all of my non-fiction and my YouTube channel. And then if you're interested in my fiction, you can find that at MichaelLaRonn.com.
[00:48:41] Matty: Very cool. Thank you so much.
[00:48:43] Michael: Thanks, Matty.
I'd love to hear your thoughts!
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Michael! Have you been to any in-person author events recently, and if yes, what was your experience? Did you find the benefits to be worth the investment in time, money, and energy? I’d love to hear your thoughts! Please leave a message on YouTube ... and I hope you’ll subscribe while you’re there!