Episode 137 - Using Podcasts to Support Your Book Launch with Michelle Glogovac
June 7, 2022
This week on The Indy Author Podcast, Michelle Glogovac discusses USING PODCASTS TO SUPPORT YOUR BOOK LAUNCH. She discusses defining your expert topic; researching podcast reach; personalizing your pitch; making it about the podcaster; following up (gently) on unanswered pitches; and repurposing content.
Do any of those topics pique your interest? Check out 2 MINUTES OF INDY, where over the week following the airing of the episode, you'll find brief video clips from the interview on each of those topics. You can also catch up on some highlights of previous episodes there.
Do any of those topics pique your interest? Check out 2 MINUTES OF INDY, where over the week following the airing of the episode, you'll find brief video clips from the interview on each of those topics. You can also catch up on some highlights of previous episodes there.
Michelle Glogovac is THE Podcast Matchmaker, award-winning publicist, and host of the My Simplified Life podcast. After an 18-year career in corporate aviation, Michelle is changing the world, one voice at a time, by matching her clients with the perfect podcast hosts and teaching them how to share their story, vision, and expertise in impactful and powerful ways. She has coached 14,000 authors through the process of creating and launching a podcast book tour through the NonfictionWriters Association. Her own podcast is ranked in the top 2% globally with over 1,000 downloads per month. Michelle is the Founder and CEO of The MLG Collective and she resides in the BayArea.
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"Be personal, share of yourself, just as the host has been sharing of themselves in their episodes, relate that way. And then say, here's why I think I'd be a great guest, because your audience is going to learn this. Make it about them. This is not about you. Make it about the audience. What is the host going to gain from having you on versus anyone else? What makes you stand out?" —Michelle Glogovac
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Links
[www.themlgcollective.com
www.instagram.com/michelleglogovac
www.facebook.com/themlgcollective
www.twitter.com/micglogovac
www.linkedin.com/in/michelleglogovac]
https://www.listennotes.com/
Matty's Links:
Affiliate links
Events
www.instagram.com/michelleglogovac
www.facebook.com/themlgcollective
www.twitter.com/micglogovac
www.linkedin.com/in/michelleglogovac]
https://www.listennotes.com/
Matty's Links:
Affiliate links
Events
Transcript
[00:00:00] Matty: Hello and welcome to The Indy Author Podcast. Today my guest is Michelle Glogovac. Hey, Michelle, how are you doing?
[00:00:06] Michelle: Hi, I'm so good. How are you?
[00:00:08] Matty: I'm doing great, thank you.
To give our listeners and viewers a little bit of background on you, Michelle Glogovac is The Podcast Matchmaker, an award-winning publicist and host of the My Simplified Life Podcast. After an 18-year career in corporate aviation, Michelle is changing the world one voice at a time by matching her clients with the perfect podcast hosts and teaching how to share their story, vision, and expertise in impactful and powerful ways.
She's coached 14,000 authors through the process of creating and launching a podcast book tour through the Non-fiction Writers Association. Her own podcast is ranked in the top 2% globally with over 1000 downloads per month. Michelle is the founder and CEO of the MLG Collective, and she resides in the Bay Area.
And I invited Michelle to be in the podcast because I heard her speak at the Women in Publishing Conference on using podcasts to support your book launch. And I am all about all things podcasts, so I wanted to chat with Michelle about that.
Michelle's Aviation Career
[00:01:02] Matty: But before we get to that, as someone who for a time was a student pilot and whose husband is a pilot, I have to hear more about your 18-year career in corporate aviation. What was that all about?
[00:01:13] Michelle: I sold jet fuel to corporate flight departments. I needed a part-time job while I was in college and I could walk to the Santa Barbara Airport from campus, and they had a great minimum wage of $9.20 an hour back in the day. And I said, yep, sign me up. And it went from a part-time CSR job to becoming the bookkeeper for the base, to training customer service reps across the nation, and creating guidelines for all of them.
And then when I graduated, they gave me a salary and benefits and I said, yep, I don't have to move back home, I'll take it. And I just stuck in it. I worked for the number one reseller of jet fuel for over a decade, and then worked for the number two one after that. And once my kids were born, I said, okay, that's enough. What can I do where I'm not traveling, and feel like I can actually make more of a difference in the world? I like to joke that I was just saving the rich money, by a penny, a dime a gallon. I wanted to do something that was a little bit different.
The Importance of Relationships
But in the end, I've actually recognized that what I do now and what I did for almost 20 years are really the same, because it was all relationship based. So as totally different as jet fuel and podcasting sound, my role in both aspects is really bringing people together, creating relationships, myself with them, with hosts, with clients, and then creating perfect matches in the end. So it's a mutually beneficial relationship.
[00:02:43] Matty: Very cool. As you were talking, I was thinking, do I dare ask her what lessons she learned from that, that she applied to her later career, and then you went there yourself. That's great.
It took some soul searching to figure out, how is this the same at all? It could be because it is so different. And it even took me awhile going, okay, what is similar? How is it that I can be successful in what I do now, when my experience and my background has nothing to do with it? My educational background is in law, so it's totally different. I've just gone different avenues, but I found that they all relate to each other somehow.
[00:03:17] Matty: As I've told other guests, I pride myself on being able to make connections between any two topics, and I will also say that the idea of presenting yourself as a podcast guest and being the face of an organization like you were in the corporate aviation area. I know that, because my husband's a pilot, I fly with him places, and we'll go to the FBO and our whole attitude, not only about the person, but about the base operator at the airport, even like our destination, is really colored by the person that we interact with there, like the front line person, in the same way that if people get a little taste of you on a podcast.
Creating Connections
[00:03:54] Michelle: You're probably the first person that I've ever spoken to on a podcast that knew what an FBO is, so way to go. And you're absolutely right, and that was part of what the training that I did was, we read the "Who Moved My Cheese" books, we read all the "Fish" books in order, and then they actually had me stay at some Four Seasons hotels to experience what that's like to have someone smile and welcome you, to acknowledge you within five seconds of walking through the door, even if you're on the phone, but to answer the phone with a smile and all of that.
And then in the end, we taught them how to upsell, oh, you wanted 20 gallons. How about 30, and I'll give you 5 cents off. That was what I became known for, it was, I could upsell anybody. You can buy more fuel and I'll do this for you. And it was wonderful, but you're absolutely right. It's that connection and that friendliness, and not just, yeah, you want fuel. Okay. Hold on. I hate my job. And I think that goes for anybody, whether it's aviation related or otherwise.
[00:04:57] Matty: Yeah. I think that another possible analogy is that if you communicate that you hate what you're doing, nobody's response is going to be, oh, I feel so bad for you, my heart breaks for you. The response is going to be, well, if you're this much of a jerk here, you’re probably just generally a jerk in the same way that, I’ll just share that, that very rarely, but very occasionally, I'll have a podcast guest, actually only one, where it was clear that this person wanted to be pretty much anywhere other than being interviewed for my podcast. And I thought, okay, I’m not inviting that person back.
So that sense that you convey to people over the phone or over a podcast, over video, in person, is really will influence the whole relationship you can build with them.
[00:05:42] Michelle: And it really sticks with you. I have stories from, I started, oh my goodness, over 20 years ago in aviation. And I have stories that I remember to this day of which celebrity treated me like gold, as an employee, versus the ones who treated me like that was your job. Go get my bag, and don't say a word, just make sure it gets on the plane. There are very different scenarios, but they definitely stick with you.
And I try not to talk about the negative ones, and I love to praise the ones that I'm like, yeah, I met this person, and they were so nice. It was crazy, like they wouldn't let me touch their bags because. Like Joe Montana was a great one because he was like, no, you go talk to my wife, I'll handle the bags. They're just too heavy. I was like, this is so nice. So Jennifer Montana and I just struck up a conversation. But it's those nice moments that they really stick with you, but so do the bad ones.
[00:06:39] Matty: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Why Podcasts in Particular?
[00:06:41] Matty: So let's use that as an entree to launching into how you can create more of the good moments and fewer of the bad moments when you want to use a podcast as part of your book launch. And I'm going to start out asking you why podcasts in particular?
I think we all saw that with COVID, that podcasts, they're booming. It's a platform that everybody can listen to for free. You can reach a wider audience than if you went and you did a single book signing. You can do a lot of interviews from the comfort of your own home, like we are right now, back-to-back in a day. And then that's the beauty of it. You can do these recordings ahead of your launch. You can have them all go live the week of your launch, asking a host to do this. And these are all things that you can't really do in person.
[00:07:28] Michelle: So that's what makes it unique. You're reaching audiences that are already warm. They're trusted by the host. And so they're automatically going to have a trust in you because the host has trusted you enough to bring you on to their platform and to speak freely. So I think these are some of the big benefits of why podcasts are so great.
They continue to boom. There are over 2 million podcasts that are out there right now. Not all of them are considered active. So active would be a new episode within 30 days. That's roughly around 800,000, which is still a huge number that you can reach out to. I had one client who said to me, do you think that we can find enough podcasts for me in six months? You know, over 800,000, I'm sure we can find a few. It just takes finding that right one and connecting with them to make it worthwhile for everybody.
Podcasts vs Virtual Events
[00:08:27] Matty: Do you feel as if podcasts are, in what way are they similar or different from virtual events? Because here we are in April of 2022, and I think that a lot of people are experiencing virtual event burnout, because in many cases, that's been the only option for the last couple of years. Are there similarities and differences there between a podcast and a virtual event?
[00:08:48] Michelle: I think there definitely are similarities, but the differences are that, where a virtual event is something that you usually attend live or you might be able to get the recording, the podcast is really going to live forever, and it's something that's also accessible on multiple platforms and not just a Zoom recording or you go to YouTube to find it. You can go wherever you are comfortable listening to it, whether it's Spotify or Amazon or Apple or any of the other platforms or going directly to the host. So I think that's one of the big differences.
And also, I've liked to focus on repurposing the episodes, the interviews that you do, so you can take it and turn it into a blog post, turn it into social media posts, and share that with everybody. And I think that virtual summits and meetings don't have the same effect per se. You don't see people repurposing their virtual gathering so much, as you do on a podcast.
Defining Your Expert Topic
[00:09:48] Matty: We definitely want to get to a repurposing. I think I had that as the last topic that I want to hit once you actually have content to repurpose. But one of the first things you talked about was defining your expert topic. And I'm curious as to your perspective on this, both for fiction writers, and nonfiction writers. The nonfiction authors, I think it's easier because you're writing about the topic you are an expert on already, so it's really pulling from that and making subtopics within that.
[00:10:17] Michelle: Whereas a fiction writer, so I have both clients right now. We have launches within two weeks of each other. One's non-fiction, one's fiction. And part of what I do is I read the books before we even have a one-on-one session to discuss the topics, because I want to understand the perspective of what exactly this is about. I want the details, and then I come up with my own questions of, why did you want to write about this? What was this character?
And so it's definitely different, but I think that when it comes to a fiction author, we're looking at the topics around the book in general. Why did you focus on this theme? What made it stand out from other ones? What's in your background in real life that might apply to this? And we take those perspectives.
And on the non-fiction side, it's what I mentioned of, you have an expert topic and that's what your book is about, and then breaking it into even more topics. And whether it is from the book, or maybe you have different chapters that address these certain topics, or it's just going into more detail. Whereas I say, oh, you told this story, and this would be a really great one to be a topic for interviews, and in going that route.
[00:11:32] Matty: When someone is pitching for a fiction book launch, I think this is one of these things where we ourselves are often the worst ones at identifying what would be interesting to other people for us to talk about. If someone's trying to come up with topics for a fiction, what are questions they can ask themselves that will help surface that?
Actually, I'm writing my first book and it's on podcast guesting and how to come up with these topics. Because even for myself, it's definitely harder when you're doing it on your own. Whereas with my clients, I can just pick all of these topics and it's almost like they come out of the sky and that's my secret sauce of, what do you do? How do you do it? And my book coach that I was working with, she's like, this is where you have to sit down and how is it that you do this? I'm like, I don't know, I just do it. Ask yourself, why did you want to write about this theme? What exactly is it that made you talk about this? Do you have a specific belief that goes into this? If you were going to give a TED talk on it, what would that be like? Asking yourself all of these kinds of questions.
[00:12:39] Michelle: What is it that interests you that you want to talk about? Because if you don't want to talk about it, it's going to come through, just as when you're talking about your career. If you hate where you are, then it's going to come through in the interview. And that's the same thing with the topic. So what is it about your book that really lights you up, that makes you excited, that people will also want to hear about? Because if you're excited about it, someone else is going to be excited about it as well.
So for one example, I am working with a fiction author where the book is about suspense and there's a detective and there's a murder, but then there's also a Christianity component and a gay component, and how it all interacts. And it's also going to be, what kind of podcasts do you want to get on and who are you speaking to?
[00:13:25] Michelle: So that's another key component in deciding what your topics are, is to decide who is it that you want to target? Who's your ideal reader? Who's your ideal listener? And tackling it from that end too, to say, okay, I want to, for this one, we want to talk to the LGBTQ+ community, but we don't want to talk to Bible-based podcast per se.
So then taking it from that example of, okay, what is it that we want to say to them? What's the message in the book that you want to communicate to that community and that audience, and then going from there.
And oftentimes, you'll start with scribbled notes, and coming up with topics and it might not make sense but throw the spaghetti on the wall and then come back to it. sleep on it, I think having a fresh set of eyes in the morning. Ask other people, too. Don't be afraid. Some of the best sessions I have are just one-on-one sessions where I'm not actually pitching the client, but we'll come up together with, what is it that you can speak on and what are some good topics around that?
I'm going to back up a little bit, because I realized that if we're talking about using podcast appearances as part of a book launch, then I'm assuming that one of the goals is, say, book sales.
Author Goals Podcasts Can Support
[00:14:42] Matty: But what are some other goals that a writer might have that an author might have that they would want to use podcast appearances to support?
[00:14:51] Michelle: I think just as with anyone else who's getting on podcasts, the thought leadership, to be known within your sphere of influence. Yes, to book sales, to other speaking opportunities, because you never know who's listening to a podcast interview. People might reach out that they would like you to write a blog post for them. There might be another host who wants to interview you.
So it goes beyond just the one single interview, and it can have that ripple effect. Just to get the word out there, maybe you simply want to spread your message, and that's your whole purpose in it, is to be on podcasts to do that.
And that is absolutely possible. For some, it might be to grow their email list, whether that's for future book sales or they're creating a course out of their book and they want that community.
Or maybe you are building a community in general, and you have a group that you want people to join. So there's just a variety of different things that you can do with podcast appearances for your end goal.
I always recommend that you have somewhere to send listeners to and to get their email information, so that way you can keep in contact with them. And then you can measure your ROI for what that interview did for you by seeing who is subscribing to get a freebie or your newsletter or something like that.
[00:16:10] Matty: And I'm assuming that you're meeting the goal of expanding your email list by sending people to the destination that you mentioned when hopefully, at the end of the podcast, you get to tell people where to go for more information.
[00:16:23] Michelle: Exactly, yes. And I always say, if you have a freebie that you can give out, do it. I have a plethora of them on my website that I send people towards, because the more information you can give for free, it gets people thinking, oh, what am I going to get if I pay this person to work with me? So always keep that in the back of your mind.
That was something I heard Amy Porterfield say years ago on her podcast of, if you're giving away so much great content for free, it'll make people wonder, what am I going to get if I pay this individual, because they're already giving me such a wealth of knowledge and information and they're just giving it for free. So it really puts you on a higher pedestal in their eyes.
[00:17:06] Matty: There are two topics that I want to pursue. One is, researching podcasts and deciding which ones you want to go for. And then there's also the whole concept of preparing a pitch. So I'm thinking that there are two stages.
There's the generic pitch that you put together, where you're considering what your goals are and what your topic area of expertise, before you get to the point of personalizing for particular podcasts.
Personalizing Your Podcast Pitch
[00:17:29] Matty: Can you talk a little bit about that first generic pitch creation effort?
[00:17:34] Michelle: Yes, I call it the skeleton pitch, because you're not going to copy and paste this and put it right in. This is going to be a kind of two or three sentence mini bio of yourself, your expert topics.
And I don't always include every topic that you're an expert on, in every email. I select two or three of the ones that fit that podcast the best. The rest are going to be in your media kit, which are attached. And then I'll put the closing is where you've been featured most recently with links.
I'm a big believer that the copy and paste part is that you're going to make sure you include your links. Link to your website, link to where you've been featured. It's my biggest pet peeve if somebody sends me an email and I have to do the homework. You want to make it as easy as possible on the host, put the links in there. Don't say, if you'd like more information or their media kit, just send it, just do it right off the bat.
[00:18:29] Michelle: So that's really that the skeleton part of what you're going to do.
And then you will personalize it. You're going to research the podcasts. I research on Apple Podcasts. I'll go down the rabbit hole of, if you like this one, here are some others you might like, and I start clicking and going through. I also love using Instagram. I will search hashtags that are relevant to whatever it is. So, say you're a mom, you want to talk to other moms, business moms. Then the hashtag like #mompodcasts, #businessmompodcasts, #workingmompodcasts. Those all exist, and most podcasters have an Instagram account, so it's a great way to search them. Stalk them. Look them up.
And then listen to an episode or two. This is how you're going to actually be able to personalize the pitch is by saying, I listened to this episode with Michelle, and I really loved how she said, blah, blah, blah. And it related to me. And I do this for my clients, whether I relate it to them or I relate it to myself. Oftentimes I'll say, I really love this episode because this is what's going on in my life, and so that's how it resonated with me. And that's how you're going to personalize it.
The research part, there's so many ways to look it up. Even if you just google the type of podcast you're looking for, you might find blog posts that give you the top 20 podcasts for this genre, and just start looking at them and researching them. And if you plug those ones into, whether you're listening on Spotify or Apple, plug those in, and then you'll see what other ones come along with it. It's time-consuming and simple at the same time, if that makes sense.
[00:20:05] Matty: Yeah, well, one of the other things you had mentioned was ROI. And at some point, I want to ask you more about the business that you offer people, but let's just assume for the moment that people are doing this themselves.
And I've gone through phases, especially if I have a new book coming out, not so much for fiction, but for my non-fiction books, that I will do some research into podcasts that might lend themselves to me describing my new offering.
And it is really time-consuming, mainly because I don't really like to pitch myself as a guest unless I've listened to an episode of the podcast, and right there, you've limited how many ones you can pitch to, if you're applying that rule.
On the other hand, you don't want to pitch a podcast, get on there and realize partway through, whoop, I should've listened to this because this isn't quite what I had in mind.
Doing Your Research
[00:20:54] Matty: How do you advise people who are doing this themselves, how they balance that time investment to do research against what they're hoping to get out of it?
[00:21:02] Michelle: Go in knowing that it's going to take time. It is a time suck per se, trying to research the podcast and then listening. And, you don't have to listen to it on the regular speed. You can double it up to help you. Those are options when you're listening to a podcast. And look at the descriptions of each episode to see which ones you actually resonate with right away, and then listen to that one. I wouldn't just listen to the most recent one. That oftentimes you're oh, okay, so you heard last week, but did you hear two months ago, because that one related even more.
So take your time and scroll through some of the descriptions because that will definitely make it easier on what you're going to listen to.
And then I also take notes. So you might want to do it in different phases. I like to research the podcasts, listen to them, and then I create Trello boards for all of my clients. So every podcast that gets pitched to has its own card within the Trello board, and I make notes of relatable episode. I listened to this one with this guest, and this is just a blurb of what it was about. So that way I don't do it all at one time, because it can get overwhelming. So do it in different steps and stages.
[00:22:16] Michelle: And like, week one for me of the month will be research podcasts. Week two we'll be sending up follow-ups. Week three will be to do the initial ones, if this is a client that had already been working with, otherwise, the follow-ups obviously come later. But that's how I make sure I also keep track of it. But then it just makes it easier to take it in chunks of time versus sitting down and trying to do all of it in one day or one week.
[00:22:41] Matty: And I guess timing-wise, depending on what your book launch plan is, if you want to make the big splash, then you might want to do all this work in advance in the hopes that you can line up podcasts that will hit the airwaves as close to when your launch as possible. But I always find that with everything else that's going on with a book launch, I can never quite swing that.
Scheduling an Appearance
[00:23:02] Matty: So my feeling is, even if I'm reaching people a month, six months, a year later, it's still worth the effort. Do you see any kind of ROI difference between chunking them up near the launch or stretching that over time?
I think if you're trying to plan your launch in general, it's always a good idea to do this ahead of time, and I say four to six months. If you're doing it on your own, I say four months with me, because I like to take the first month to read it. I never know how many clients I'm going to have within that one month and how many will be authors. And like I said, I'm working with two right now, both their books were 400 pages each. So last month I read over 800 pages.
[00:23:42] Matty: Bless your heart.
[00:23:43] Michelle: I was a little concerned. I had to put down all of my "for-fun" books and focus on these two. But then again, I get paid to read, so it's quite a job. I like it. But to take that time to read the book, and then to do the research and the pitching. So right now we're pitching. And both books go live in June, and one this morning already said, we're booked until June. We can get you in June, but it'll go live the first week of July. So at least we're still in that fresh new period.
A book sale is a book sale, whether it's at the beginning or it's six months or five years down the road.
[00:24:18] Michelle: So I think as long as you can get the interview, it doesn't matter when you're going to do it. Make some time just as you're setting aside time for different kinds of marketing, and for editing and approving and all of that stuff. Set aside an hour a week to focus on just podcast pitching and do it that way.
Because, since every host is different, you don't know if they can record with you next week, or if it's going to be in three months or it could be in six months. It's all over the board. There's no similarity between any two podcasts, so just be prepared for that.
[00:24:52] Matty: Yeah, I used to, after I was done talking with the guests and we stopped recording, I would tell them when their episode would go up. And then I stopped doing that because I have about two months' worth of episodes queued up at any one time or, ready to go out. And I sometimes shuffle them around because I like to alternate between craft-related topics and business-related topics. So I've switched to just saying, it's going to be sometime in the next two months, but I can't tell you exactly when, unless somebody has a specific date they're aiming for, and then sometimes I can show shuffle things around. So if it is near a launch date, I can get as close to that as possible. But yeah, it's a tricky logistical calculus sometimes.
[00:25:32] Michelle: It is. Yeah, I miscalculated my own podcast last week and the kids were on spring break, and I went, oh, we're just not going to have one go live this week because I have an author going live next week and I already recorded for her. So I'm like, that's fine. We'll skip it. The first one and over 50 episodes, we skipped. But that's fine. So yeah, you just never know. We have lives. We're not just professional podcast hosts, we have businesses and families and whatnot. So you just never know.
[00:26:33] Matty: I did have another question about deciding who you want to pitch. So I'll give a little background glimpse of people for The Indy Author, that in my ongoing quest to monetize my podcast, which is a challenge, I more or less formally factor in the reach and the activity of a potential guest on the platforms where I'm most active myself, i.e., YouTube, Facebook and Twitter.
So I don't discount someone who doesn't have a presence on those platforms, but it doesn't hurt if I can see that I could share the podcast episode on Twitter with someone, and I can see that they're probably actively going to share it out. That's definitely a plus. But it is difficult.
Finding Out a Podcast's Reach
[00:27:19] Matty: You can go on to any platform and see how active someone is, but the other aspect is how large a reach does that podcaster have for their podcast?
Is there any source for information about reach?
[00:27:31] Michelle: The one website that I would use is ListenNotes.com, and that gives you a listener score and the global ranking. And it describes exactly what those two mean. It's based on the downloads, it's based on who's listening, where they're listening. It's also based on the consistency of the podcast host generating new episodes. I'm in the top 2%, which blows me away. That's globally. And I do average about a thousand downloads a month, but these are things that aren't public knowledge, and you don't necessarily go in asking a podcast host, hey, what are your downloads?
It's really, it's taboo. It really is. Yeah. Yeah, we don't really talk about it. And it can fluctuate. There could be a month where I get 700 downloads and then this month, I already have over 3000. So it can be all over the place, just depending on, like you said, who's sharing what, when they share it.
I like to tell my clients that when we go after podcasts, I don't want them to focus on, oh, this has 1000 downloads, and this is who we want to appear on. That's great, but if those people who are listening and leaving those thousand reviews could care less about what you have to say, then it's a complete waste of time. You'd rather get on the show that has 4, 5, 10, 20 reviews, isn't getting a ton of downloads, but every single listener wants to hear exactly what you have to say and are interested in it.
[00:29:02] Michelle: So to me, that's of more importance when it comes to my clients. I'd rather that we get on shows where the target audience is reached, versus getting on some massive show where, we don't want to be on Joe Rogan. It's not going to make sense. Yes, he's got a ton of listeners, but are those the listeners that my specific need to reach and want to reach? And it just, it doesn't make sense in that sense. I think there's so many different factors to look at.
And that's why I say, look at the various episodes, don't just look at one. Read the description of the overall show, listen to the trailer, look at the hosts and stalk them a bit, look at their different social media accounts and what are they promoting? What are they really about? What's their background? And knowing all of these things ahead of time will help you know if this is worthy of going after, or if it is going to be a waste of time, in that sense.
The Power of Repurposing Content
[00:29:55] Matty: So we had referenced earlier about repurposing content. And I think that's another plus, that the number of downloads or listens you get immediately is less important if you're able to repurpose the content over time.
So I'm wondering if you can talk about how you go about repurposing content that really belongs to someone else. First of all, how do you pursue getting the right to do that, and then what are the mechanisms you can use to repurpose that content?
[00:30:23] Michelle: Well, one of the easiest ways is to ask. You can get downloads of the actual episode, in a lot of cases directly from whatever platform you're using. Or simply ask the host, can I get the download, or do you do a transcript? Because you're going to want that transcript, even whether you're listening to it and you take notes as you would for show notes, or you can download the transcript and read through and look for quotes of yourself.
The other thing is that podcast hosts love downloads, so if you ask for an embeddable link for your website, chances are they're going to give you one pretty freely. And that will go right to their downloads, so it counts towards their statistics, which they want. And you can create, you know, a blog post out of it.
[00:31:06] Michelle: Say I was featured on this podcast, and we talked about these things and then include the link so they can listen to it directly from your website, and it's benefiting the podcast hosts.
So it becomes a win-win. Every host wants to be thanked for having their platform be utilized, because they're doing it for free. And so to me, the biggest way that you can say thank you, is by sharing it as often as you can, with as many people as you can. Then take that transcript and the quotes from yourself and make them into social media graphics, make them into a tweet. They promote you as the thought leader, and then you can link back to the podcast show.
So again, you're creating more downloads and broadening the audience that's going to listen to it. It's thanking the host. And I have yet to come in contact with the host who says, no, don't share it, please.
Listen before Pitching
[00:32:00] Matty: Yeah, exactly. And I'm realizing, probably should have switch these around, but when we were talking about picking the podcasts that you want to pitch to, I think an obvious one to start with is the podcasts that you listen to, if it's a good match.
So you don't want to force yourself on somebody, if you're writing cozy mysteries and you love to listen to cooking podcasts, then maybe that's not a good match. But if it's appropriate, then you're the best person to understand whether it's going to be of interest to that podcast host, and as a listener, you understand what their listeners are looking for.
[00:32:35] Michelle: Exactly. And that's why I say to listen to the show before you pitch to it, so you do get that perspective of, what are they looking for? What kind of content are they putting out there? Does it even interest you? And that's a great way to find out if you believe it is a match.
[00:32:50] Matty: Yeah, I think that one of the best examples I can think of this, is that a while ago I was on Sacha Black's Rebel Author Podcast. And I'd listened to her podcast, but I tended to listened to her personal update, and then I skipped through some stuff, and then I would listen to her interview, and then I would skip through some stuff.
And what I realized, like thank heavens that I didn't skip through everything, because before I went on the podcast, I listened to one all the way through, and I realized at the end of every episode, she asks people to describe some moment when they let loose their inner rebel. And I was like, oh my gosh. If I had heard that on the spur of the moment without time to think about it, I think I would have panicked a bit.
But I think a lot of podcast hosts have that kind of characteristic thing that they do that they probably expect you to know and be prepared for.
[00:33:43] Michelle: One would hope, and I have a funny story on that one because I had a client who I not only pitched her, but I produced her show. And so I listened to every single episode, and she had ending conclusion question of, if someone were to play you in a movie, who would it be? That's how she ended every single one.
Then she interviewed me, and I swear to you, I was like a deer in the headlights. And I'm like, are you kidding me? You ask this to everybody, I know this, I write their answers down and here I'm going, I don't know.
[00:34:13] Matty: Did you ever say something?
[00:34:15] Michelle: I said something, I don't remember what it was, but yeah, I think maybe it was Meg Ryan or Drew Barrymore. Somewhere in between the two, but even if you do listen to it all the time, I think you kind of get sucked into the moment of, you're here in your present and for me, I totally forgot.
And I also think that another experience I had, and I was very thoroughly prepped for this, but I was on the Writing Community Chat Show, I think it's called. And they were having their first ever game show. And I was on the visiting team with Dale Roberts and Keith Wheeler.
[00:34:50] Matty: And they were like, you pretty much have to show up being willing to look like an idiot. And I signed up, I was willing to look like an idiot. But if I hadn't known, if I had just gotten in there and hadn't realized what the shtick was, that would have, could have been a very bad hour, not only for me, but for everybody else.
Crafting the Pitch Email
[00:35:10] Matty: So let's get really down to brass tacks. Last thing I want to talk about is crafting the pitch email. So is there any kind of formula you can provide to people to help them, once they've identified the podcasts they want to pitch, how they should go about that, what information they should include?
Make the Pitch About Them and Their Audience
[00:35:26] Michelle: Yeah, so I always open up with. Here's what I relate to with your podcast. I like your show, I appreciate your show, and then name a specific episode or two. Who's a guest that's been on, why is it that you relate to it, and get personal. I think that the best emails or the best pitches are ones that are relatable.
Otherwise, copy and paste, it doesn't stand out. And I get my fair share of them for my own show where I literally just, I just stop. If there's no link in it, it gets put away right away. If you don't relate to it and you know the name of my show, but that's it, you don't even know my name, hey there, no, it's not, Hey there. I have a name, so please do that bare minimum amount of research. And be personal, share of yourself, just as the host has been sharing of themselves in their episodes, relate that way.
And then say, here's why I think I'd be a great guest, because your audience is going to learn this. And make it about them. This is not about you.
Ultimately, we all know that you're pitching yourself because you want to be interviewed and that's all about you, but we don't want to make it seem like you want it to be about you. We want to educate the audience. We want to share something with them. We want the audience to listen and learn something new from you.
So make it about the audience. What is the host going to gain from having you on versus anyone else? What makes you stand out? And then go into two or three sentences about yourself, not your full-blown bio. You're going to attach all of that. But you know, two sentences of, this is who I am, what my background is. This is the book I've written. If it's going to be released, what's the launch date?
And then say, here are some of the expert topics I have that I believe are a good fit for your show, and then list them out. But like I said before, don't list them all out. They can look at your media kit. Get specific on which ones you think relate best to that specific show.
And then mention where you've recently been featured, whether it's in the media or it is another podcast and link to those. Hosts really love to know that you've been on another show, that you have the ability to speak intelligently, that you've done this before. It's not your first time. So link to those.
If you haven't, don't worry about that though, because you are going to land that first interview and then you can update your pitch with that. And then let them know if they have questions, they can contact you and attach to your media kit, and then sign off.
And then I recommend that you follow up in two or three weeks and do it gently. I'm checking in. I'm just seeing if you have any questions or would like to interview me.
Gentle Follow Up on Unanswered Pitches
[00:38:06] Michelle: And then another two or three weeks, I'll say, hi, I'm checking in one last time. And so they know this is final, this is it. And oftentimes, it's on that third email that I'll get a host to go, oh yes, I meant to get back to you or, oh, it went in my spam, but suddenly it came in my inbox, and that'll prompt them to come to you.
But you know, be gentle and kind in your follow-ups, just as you would want someone else. I've gotten the most random follow-ups of one word. Literally, I'm not kidding, somebody went, Bing! They actually spelled that, b I N G with an exclamation, that was it. That was their follow-up.
[00:38:44] Matty: Yeah, that's not good.
[00:38:45] Michelle: No. And this was an agency, too. I think that also, I'll say to that extent, that if you are hiring an agency, ask them about their process. What does a follow up look like? You're paying good money for this. So don't be afraid to ask.
If any of my clients asked me, hey, what does my, they actually know what their skeleton pitch looks like because they see it before it goes out. They proof and approve their media kit before it goes out. So I'm very transparent in everything that I do.
They have access to their Trello board, so they know exactly when an email goes out. They can look at it any time. They can see what episode was related to in the pitch. But don't be afraid to ask these questions. That's my belief. I think that if you're going to pay me to do a service and to represent you, then you have every right to ask those questions. You shouldn't be paying good money for an email that says "bing." And there are people who are out there doing it, and don't know that's the service that's going out there representing them. Think of yourself as being the person on the receiving end of the email. And if you're gentle and kind, and not pushy or salesy, then that's really what's going to also win people over. So watch the tone of your email.
And that's really it. Three emails max is what I say, and space them out. And I say, space them out because we as hosts have other jobs. Like you just said, you're two months out with your interviews, so there's no need for you to be looking for a guest to fill tomorrow's slot. You can take your time and your emails and maybe you've gotten a guest request, but you don't want to read it until you have time because you have all this other work to get through.
[00:40:23] Michelle: So that's why I say, don't be pushy. This isn't pitching to the media where you need to be on tonight's six o'clock news. It's not the same. That's now, you know, time is of the essence, whereas a podcast it's much more relaxed and give it a few weeks in-between.
[00:40:38] Matty: Yeah, I think that the other thing that I'll throw out there and I'll be curious for your thoughts on this is that, as someone who's starting to be pitched by agencies for guests to be on The Indy Author Podcast, the two things that I want to ask them are, does your client know you're pitching me?
Working with an Agency
[00:40:57] Matty: Because what I don't want to have happen is that an overenthusiastic agency pitches their client to me, the client and I get on the interview together and it's clear that there is a disconnect, or for whatever reason, they're in a different kind of area.
So a good example is, I often get pitched by agencies for authors who have written a fiction book, and they want to go on a podcast and talk about their fiction book.
And I have to say, it's not really that kind of podcast, but if I weren't vetting it, it would be easy to get on an interview with somebody like that and then have them wanting to talk about the book and me trying to steer them in some other directions.
So to what extent does your client approve the podcast that you're pitching them to, in your own scenario?
[00:41:42] Michelle: They don't approve the podcast that I pitch to. We go through on the types of podcasts, they give me a wish list, so we're on the same page of the types of podcast to pitch to.
Like I said, they all have access to their own Trello boards, so they see who is going to be pitched to, who has been pitched. But then also once we get a yes, I communicate with them, I send them links, this is what the podcast is about. This is why I pitched you. This is the topic you're going to speak on. And they can say no at that point. I expect them to know a little bit too, all you have to do is click on the link.
I'm providing you the info just as I provided the host the info, to make sure that we are all on the same page.
But I think that also goes back to the agency, them not doing their research on your show. If they're pitching the wrong type of client to be on it, to promote the book. So yeah, I would say that's the agency's fault for sure.
Pitches From Guests without Prior Appearances
[00:42:38] Matty: Yeah. The other thing I wanted to pose, and again, get your input on is, if someone doesn't have any exposure yet, they haven't done any podcast interviews. If I were considering them, something that I would find helpful is if they could point me to a video of them talking about their topic. Because I'm not necessarily looking for a long track record of podcast appearances.
In fact, if someone has just done like 10 podcast appearances in the last year on this topic, it may be less appealing to me because I figure, that’s already out there.
But what I'm looking for is someone who's relatively comfortable on video and audio, talking about their topic. And is that something that seems reasonable, that people put up a video on social media or YouTube, just illustrating what their style would be?
[00:43:27] Michelle: Absolutely, and for the majority of my clients, even though a lot have never been on a podcast, some don't have social media presence that they're just ramping up because they've been in other places, there is some sort of a video somewhere of them speaking. So even if it doesn't relate specifically to their topic, maybe it was on something else of a past career, I'll still utilize that, because it showcases that they are intelligent, they can speak on a topic, they can carry on a conversation. So yes, I definitely say, just give me wherever you've been featured, and we'll work with it.
And then I constantly am updating. Every time we get a new interview that goes live, everything gets updated, the media kit, the pitch. So it's the constant staying on top of what is up to date. I don't think that's an unreasonable ask at all. They should have something somewhere, especially in this day and age.
Yeah, that's so great. Well, Michelle, thank you so much for sharing all those tips. And I would love to invite you to tell people where they can go to find out more about you and your work online.
[00:44:30] Michelle: Thank you so much. My website is the MLGCollective.com. You can also find me on Instagram, Twitter, Instagram. I'm @MichelleGlogovac, Twitter, it's @MCGlogovac. They couldn't spell it all out. It was too long. And then you can hear me every Tuesday, except last week, on My Simplified Life, which is available on all podcast platforms.
[00:44:53] Matty: Great. Thank you so much, Michelle.
[00:44:54] Michelle: Thank you.
[00:00:06] Michelle: Hi, I'm so good. How are you?
[00:00:08] Matty: I'm doing great, thank you.
To give our listeners and viewers a little bit of background on you, Michelle Glogovac is The Podcast Matchmaker, an award-winning publicist and host of the My Simplified Life Podcast. After an 18-year career in corporate aviation, Michelle is changing the world one voice at a time by matching her clients with the perfect podcast hosts and teaching how to share their story, vision, and expertise in impactful and powerful ways.
She's coached 14,000 authors through the process of creating and launching a podcast book tour through the Non-fiction Writers Association. Her own podcast is ranked in the top 2% globally with over 1000 downloads per month. Michelle is the founder and CEO of the MLG Collective, and she resides in the Bay Area.
And I invited Michelle to be in the podcast because I heard her speak at the Women in Publishing Conference on using podcasts to support your book launch. And I am all about all things podcasts, so I wanted to chat with Michelle about that.
Michelle's Aviation Career
[00:01:02] Matty: But before we get to that, as someone who for a time was a student pilot and whose husband is a pilot, I have to hear more about your 18-year career in corporate aviation. What was that all about?
[00:01:13] Michelle: I sold jet fuel to corporate flight departments. I needed a part-time job while I was in college and I could walk to the Santa Barbara Airport from campus, and they had a great minimum wage of $9.20 an hour back in the day. And I said, yep, sign me up. And it went from a part-time CSR job to becoming the bookkeeper for the base, to training customer service reps across the nation, and creating guidelines for all of them.
And then when I graduated, they gave me a salary and benefits and I said, yep, I don't have to move back home, I'll take it. And I just stuck in it. I worked for the number one reseller of jet fuel for over a decade, and then worked for the number two one after that. And once my kids were born, I said, okay, that's enough. What can I do where I'm not traveling, and feel like I can actually make more of a difference in the world? I like to joke that I was just saving the rich money, by a penny, a dime a gallon. I wanted to do something that was a little bit different.
The Importance of Relationships
But in the end, I've actually recognized that what I do now and what I did for almost 20 years are really the same, because it was all relationship based. So as totally different as jet fuel and podcasting sound, my role in both aspects is really bringing people together, creating relationships, myself with them, with hosts, with clients, and then creating perfect matches in the end. So it's a mutually beneficial relationship.
[00:02:43] Matty: Very cool. As you were talking, I was thinking, do I dare ask her what lessons she learned from that, that she applied to her later career, and then you went there yourself. That's great.
It took some soul searching to figure out, how is this the same at all? It could be because it is so different. And it even took me awhile going, okay, what is similar? How is it that I can be successful in what I do now, when my experience and my background has nothing to do with it? My educational background is in law, so it's totally different. I've just gone different avenues, but I found that they all relate to each other somehow.
[00:03:17] Matty: As I've told other guests, I pride myself on being able to make connections between any two topics, and I will also say that the idea of presenting yourself as a podcast guest and being the face of an organization like you were in the corporate aviation area. I know that, because my husband's a pilot, I fly with him places, and we'll go to the FBO and our whole attitude, not only about the person, but about the base operator at the airport, even like our destination, is really colored by the person that we interact with there, like the front line person, in the same way that if people get a little taste of you on a podcast.
Creating Connections
[00:03:54] Michelle: You're probably the first person that I've ever spoken to on a podcast that knew what an FBO is, so way to go. And you're absolutely right, and that was part of what the training that I did was, we read the "Who Moved My Cheese" books, we read all the "Fish" books in order, and then they actually had me stay at some Four Seasons hotels to experience what that's like to have someone smile and welcome you, to acknowledge you within five seconds of walking through the door, even if you're on the phone, but to answer the phone with a smile and all of that.
And then in the end, we taught them how to upsell, oh, you wanted 20 gallons. How about 30, and I'll give you 5 cents off. That was what I became known for, it was, I could upsell anybody. You can buy more fuel and I'll do this for you. And it was wonderful, but you're absolutely right. It's that connection and that friendliness, and not just, yeah, you want fuel. Okay. Hold on. I hate my job. And I think that goes for anybody, whether it's aviation related or otherwise.
[00:04:57] Matty: Yeah. I think that another possible analogy is that if you communicate that you hate what you're doing, nobody's response is going to be, oh, I feel so bad for you, my heart breaks for you. The response is going to be, well, if you're this much of a jerk here, you’re probably just generally a jerk in the same way that, I’ll just share that, that very rarely, but very occasionally, I'll have a podcast guest, actually only one, where it was clear that this person wanted to be pretty much anywhere other than being interviewed for my podcast. And I thought, okay, I’m not inviting that person back.
So that sense that you convey to people over the phone or over a podcast, over video, in person, is really will influence the whole relationship you can build with them.
[00:05:42] Michelle: And it really sticks with you. I have stories from, I started, oh my goodness, over 20 years ago in aviation. And I have stories that I remember to this day of which celebrity treated me like gold, as an employee, versus the ones who treated me like that was your job. Go get my bag, and don't say a word, just make sure it gets on the plane. There are very different scenarios, but they definitely stick with you.
And I try not to talk about the negative ones, and I love to praise the ones that I'm like, yeah, I met this person, and they were so nice. It was crazy, like they wouldn't let me touch their bags because. Like Joe Montana was a great one because he was like, no, you go talk to my wife, I'll handle the bags. They're just too heavy. I was like, this is so nice. So Jennifer Montana and I just struck up a conversation. But it's those nice moments that they really stick with you, but so do the bad ones.
[00:06:39] Matty: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Why Podcasts in Particular?
[00:06:41] Matty: So let's use that as an entree to launching into how you can create more of the good moments and fewer of the bad moments when you want to use a podcast as part of your book launch. And I'm going to start out asking you why podcasts in particular?
I think we all saw that with COVID, that podcasts, they're booming. It's a platform that everybody can listen to for free. You can reach a wider audience than if you went and you did a single book signing. You can do a lot of interviews from the comfort of your own home, like we are right now, back-to-back in a day. And then that's the beauty of it. You can do these recordings ahead of your launch. You can have them all go live the week of your launch, asking a host to do this. And these are all things that you can't really do in person.
[00:07:28] Michelle: So that's what makes it unique. You're reaching audiences that are already warm. They're trusted by the host. And so they're automatically going to have a trust in you because the host has trusted you enough to bring you on to their platform and to speak freely. So I think these are some of the big benefits of why podcasts are so great.
They continue to boom. There are over 2 million podcasts that are out there right now. Not all of them are considered active. So active would be a new episode within 30 days. That's roughly around 800,000, which is still a huge number that you can reach out to. I had one client who said to me, do you think that we can find enough podcasts for me in six months? You know, over 800,000, I'm sure we can find a few. It just takes finding that right one and connecting with them to make it worthwhile for everybody.
Podcasts vs Virtual Events
[00:08:27] Matty: Do you feel as if podcasts are, in what way are they similar or different from virtual events? Because here we are in April of 2022, and I think that a lot of people are experiencing virtual event burnout, because in many cases, that's been the only option for the last couple of years. Are there similarities and differences there between a podcast and a virtual event?
[00:08:48] Michelle: I think there definitely are similarities, but the differences are that, where a virtual event is something that you usually attend live or you might be able to get the recording, the podcast is really going to live forever, and it's something that's also accessible on multiple platforms and not just a Zoom recording or you go to YouTube to find it. You can go wherever you are comfortable listening to it, whether it's Spotify or Amazon or Apple or any of the other platforms or going directly to the host. So I think that's one of the big differences.
And also, I've liked to focus on repurposing the episodes, the interviews that you do, so you can take it and turn it into a blog post, turn it into social media posts, and share that with everybody. And I think that virtual summits and meetings don't have the same effect per se. You don't see people repurposing their virtual gathering so much, as you do on a podcast.
Defining Your Expert Topic
[00:09:48] Matty: We definitely want to get to a repurposing. I think I had that as the last topic that I want to hit once you actually have content to repurpose. But one of the first things you talked about was defining your expert topic. And I'm curious as to your perspective on this, both for fiction writers, and nonfiction writers. The nonfiction authors, I think it's easier because you're writing about the topic you are an expert on already, so it's really pulling from that and making subtopics within that.
[00:10:17] Michelle: Whereas a fiction writer, so I have both clients right now. We have launches within two weeks of each other. One's non-fiction, one's fiction. And part of what I do is I read the books before we even have a one-on-one session to discuss the topics, because I want to understand the perspective of what exactly this is about. I want the details, and then I come up with my own questions of, why did you want to write about this? What was this character?
And so it's definitely different, but I think that when it comes to a fiction author, we're looking at the topics around the book in general. Why did you focus on this theme? What made it stand out from other ones? What's in your background in real life that might apply to this? And we take those perspectives.
And on the non-fiction side, it's what I mentioned of, you have an expert topic and that's what your book is about, and then breaking it into even more topics. And whether it is from the book, or maybe you have different chapters that address these certain topics, or it's just going into more detail. Whereas I say, oh, you told this story, and this would be a really great one to be a topic for interviews, and in going that route.
[00:11:32] Matty: When someone is pitching for a fiction book launch, I think this is one of these things where we ourselves are often the worst ones at identifying what would be interesting to other people for us to talk about. If someone's trying to come up with topics for a fiction, what are questions they can ask themselves that will help surface that?
Actually, I'm writing my first book and it's on podcast guesting and how to come up with these topics. Because even for myself, it's definitely harder when you're doing it on your own. Whereas with my clients, I can just pick all of these topics and it's almost like they come out of the sky and that's my secret sauce of, what do you do? How do you do it? And my book coach that I was working with, she's like, this is where you have to sit down and how is it that you do this? I'm like, I don't know, I just do it. Ask yourself, why did you want to write about this theme? What exactly is it that made you talk about this? Do you have a specific belief that goes into this? If you were going to give a TED talk on it, what would that be like? Asking yourself all of these kinds of questions.
[00:12:39] Michelle: What is it that interests you that you want to talk about? Because if you don't want to talk about it, it's going to come through, just as when you're talking about your career. If you hate where you are, then it's going to come through in the interview. And that's the same thing with the topic. So what is it about your book that really lights you up, that makes you excited, that people will also want to hear about? Because if you're excited about it, someone else is going to be excited about it as well.
So for one example, I am working with a fiction author where the book is about suspense and there's a detective and there's a murder, but then there's also a Christianity component and a gay component, and how it all interacts. And it's also going to be, what kind of podcasts do you want to get on and who are you speaking to?
[00:13:25] Michelle: So that's another key component in deciding what your topics are, is to decide who is it that you want to target? Who's your ideal reader? Who's your ideal listener? And tackling it from that end too, to say, okay, I want to, for this one, we want to talk to the LGBTQ+ community, but we don't want to talk to Bible-based podcast per se.
So then taking it from that example of, okay, what is it that we want to say to them? What's the message in the book that you want to communicate to that community and that audience, and then going from there.
And oftentimes, you'll start with scribbled notes, and coming up with topics and it might not make sense but throw the spaghetti on the wall and then come back to it. sleep on it, I think having a fresh set of eyes in the morning. Ask other people, too. Don't be afraid. Some of the best sessions I have are just one-on-one sessions where I'm not actually pitching the client, but we'll come up together with, what is it that you can speak on and what are some good topics around that?
I'm going to back up a little bit, because I realized that if we're talking about using podcast appearances as part of a book launch, then I'm assuming that one of the goals is, say, book sales.
Author Goals Podcasts Can Support
[00:14:42] Matty: But what are some other goals that a writer might have that an author might have that they would want to use podcast appearances to support?
[00:14:51] Michelle: I think just as with anyone else who's getting on podcasts, the thought leadership, to be known within your sphere of influence. Yes, to book sales, to other speaking opportunities, because you never know who's listening to a podcast interview. People might reach out that they would like you to write a blog post for them. There might be another host who wants to interview you.
So it goes beyond just the one single interview, and it can have that ripple effect. Just to get the word out there, maybe you simply want to spread your message, and that's your whole purpose in it, is to be on podcasts to do that.
And that is absolutely possible. For some, it might be to grow their email list, whether that's for future book sales or they're creating a course out of their book and they want that community.
Or maybe you are building a community in general, and you have a group that you want people to join. So there's just a variety of different things that you can do with podcast appearances for your end goal.
I always recommend that you have somewhere to send listeners to and to get their email information, so that way you can keep in contact with them. And then you can measure your ROI for what that interview did for you by seeing who is subscribing to get a freebie or your newsletter or something like that.
[00:16:10] Matty: And I'm assuming that you're meeting the goal of expanding your email list by sending people to the destination that you mentioned when hopefully, at the end of the podcast, you get to tell people where to go for more information.
[00:16:23] Michelle: Exactly, yes. And I always say, if you have a freebie that you can give out, do it. I have a plethora of them on my website that I send people towards, because the more information you can give for free, it gets people thinking, oh, what am I going to get if I pay this person to work with me? So always keep that in the back of your mind.
That was something I heard Amy Porterfield say years ago on her podcast of, if you're giving away so much great content for free, it'll make people wonder, what am I going to get if I pay this individual, because they're already giving me such a wealth of knowledge and information and they're just giving it for free. So it really puts you on a higher pedestal in their eyes.
[00:17:06] Matty: There are two topics that I want to pursue. One is, researching podcasts and deciding which ones you want to go for. And then there's also the whole concept of preparing a pitch. So I'm thinking that there are two stages.
There's the generic pitch that you put together, where you're considering what your goals are and what your topic area of expertise, before you get to the point of personalizing for particular podcasts.
Personalizing Your Podcast Pitch
[00:17:29] Matty: Can you talk a little bit about that first generic pitch creation effort?
[00:17:34] Michelle: Yes, I call it the skeleton pitch, because you're not going to copy and paste this and put it right in. This is going to be a kind of two or three sentence mini bio of yourself, your expert topics.
And I don't always include every topic that you're an expert on, in every email. I select two or three of the ones that fit that podcast the best. The rest are going to be in your media kit, which are attached. And then I'll put the closing is where you've been featured most recently with links.
I'm a big believer that the copy and paste part is that you're going to make sure you include your links. Link to your website, link to where you've been featured. It's my biggest pet peeve if somebody sends me an email and I have to do the homework. You want to make it as easy as possible on the host, put the links in there. Don't say, if you'd like more information or their media kit, just send it, just do it right off the bat.
[00:18:29] Michelle: So that's really that the skeleton part of what you're going to do.
And then you will personalize it. You're going to research the podcasts. I research on Apple Podcasts. I'll go down the rabbit hole of, if you like this one, here are some others you might like, and I start clicking and going through. I also love using Instagram. I will search hashtags that are relevant to whatever it is. So, say you're a mom, you want to talk to other moms, business moms. Then the hashtag like #mompodcasts, #businessmompodcasts, #workingmompodcasts. Those all exist, and most podcasters have an Instagram account, so it's a great way to search them. Stalk them. Look them up.
And then listen to an episode or two. This is how you're going to actually be able to personalize the pitch is by saying, I listened to this episode with Michelle, and I really loved how she said, blah, blah, blah. And it related to me. And I do this for my clients, whether I relate it to them or I relate it to myself. Oftentimes I'll say, I really love this episode because this is what's going on in my life, and so that's how it resonated with me. And that's how you're going to personalize it.
The research part, there's so many ways to look it up. Even if you just google the type of podcast you're looking for, you might find blog posts that give you the top 20 podcasts for this genre, and just start looking at them and researching them. And if you plug those ones into, whether you're listening on Spotify or Apple, plug those in, and then you'll see what other ones come along with it. It's time-consuming and simple at the same time, if that makes sense.
[00:20:05] Matty: Yeah, well, one of the other things you had mentioned was ROI. And at some point, I want to ask you more about the business that you offer people, but let's just assume for the moment that people are doing this themselves.
And I've gone through phases, especially if I have a new book coming out, not so much for fiction, but for my non-fiction books, that I will do some research into podcasts that might lend themselves to me describing my new offering.
And it is really time-consuming, mainly because I don't really like to pitch myself as a guest unless I've listened to an episode of the podcast, and right there, you've limited how many ones you can pitch to, if you're applying that rule.
On the other hand, you don't want to pitch a podcast, get on there and realize partway through, whoop, I should've listened to this because this isn't quite what I had in mind.
Doing Your Research
[00:20:54] Matty: How do you advise people who are doing this themselves, how they balance that time investment to do research against what they're hoping to get out of it?
[00:21:02] Michelle: Go in knowing that it's going to take time. It is a time suck per se, trying to research the podcast and then listening. And, you don't have to listen to it on the regular speed. You can double it up to help you. Those are options when you're listening to a podcast. And look at the descriptions of each episode to see which ones you actually resonate with right away, and then listen to that one. I wouldn't just listen to the most recent one. That oftentimes you're oh, okay, so you heard last week, but did you hear two months ago, because that one related even more.
So take your time and scroll through some of the descriptions because that will definitely make it easier on what you're going to listen to.
And then I also take notes. So you might want to do it in different phases. I like to research the podcasts, listen to them, and then I create Trello boards for all of my clients. So every podcast that gets pitched to has its own card within the Trello board, and I make notes of relatable episode. I listened to this one with this guest, and this is just a blurb of what it was about. So that way I don't do it all at one time, because it can get overwhelming. So do it in different steps and stages.
[00:22:16] Michelle: And like, week one for me of the month will be research podcasts. Week two we'll be sending up follow-ups. Week three will be to do the initial ones, if this is a client that had already been working with, otherwise, the follow-ups obviously come later. But that's how I make sure I also keep track of it. But then it just makes it easier to take it in chunks of time versus sitting down and trying to do all of it in one day or one week.
[00:22:41] Matty: And I guess timing-wise, depending on what your book launch plan is, if you want to make the big splash, then you might want to do all this work in advance in the hopes that you can line up podcasts that will hit the airwaves as close to when your launch as possible. But I always find that with everything else that's going on with a book launch, I can never quite swing that.
Scheduling an Appearance
[00:23:02] Matty: So my feeling is, even if I'm reaching people a month, six months, a year later, it's still worth the effort. Do you see any kind of ROI difference between chunking them up near the launch or stretching that over time?
I think if you're trying to plan your launch in general, it's always a good idea to do this ahead of time, and I say four to six months. If you're doing it on your own, I say four months with me, because I like to take the first month to read it. I never know how many clients I'm going to have within that one month and how many will be authors. And like I said, I'm working with two right now, both their books were 400 pages each. So last month I read over 800 pages.
[00:23:42] Matty: Bless your heart.
[00:23:43] Michelle: I was a little concerned. I had to put down all of my "for-fun" books and focus on these two. But then again, I get paid to read, so it's quite a job. I like it. But to take that time to read the book, and then to do the research and the pitching. So right now we're pitching. And both books go live in June, and one this morning already said, we're booked until June. We can get you in June, but it'll go live the first week of July. So at least we're still in that fresh new period.
A book sale is a book sale, whether it's at the beginning or it's six months or five years down the road.
[00:24:18] Michelle: So I think as long as you can get the interview, it doesn't matter when you're going to do it. Make some time just as you're setting aside time for different kinds of marketing, and for editing and approving and all of that stuff. Set aside an hour a week to focus on just podcast pitching and do it that way.
Because, since every host is different, you don't know if they can record with you next week, or if it's going to be in three months or it could be in six months. It's all over the board. There's no similarity between any two podcasts, so just be prepared for that.
[00:24:52] Matty: Yeah, I used to, after I was done talking with the guests and we stopped recording, I would tell them when their episode would go up. And then I stopped doing that because I have about two months' worth of episodes queued up at any one time or, ready to go out. And I sometimes shuffle them around because I like to alternate between craft-related topics and business-related topics. So I've switched to just saying, it's going to be sometime in the next two months, but I can't tell you exactly when, unless somebody has a specific date they're aiming for, and then sometimes I can show shuffle things around. So if it is near a launch date, I can get as close to that as possible. But yeah, it's a tricky logistical calculus sometimes.
[00:25:32] Michelle: It is. Yeah, I miscalculated my own podcast last week and the kids were on spring break, and I went, oh, we're just not going to have one go live this week because I have an author going live next week and I already recorded for her. So I'm like, that's fine. We'll skip it. The first one and over 50 episodes, we skipped. But that's fine. So yeah, you just never know. We have lives. We're not just professional podcast hosts, we have businesses and families and whatnot. So you just never know.
[00:26:33] Matty: I did have another question about deciding who you want to pitch. So I'll give a little background glimpse of people for The Indy Author, that in my ongoing quest to monetize my podcast, which is a challenge, I more or less formally factor in the reach and the activity of a potential guest on the platforms where I'm most active myself, i.e., YouTube, Facebook and Twitter.
So I don't discount someone who doesn't have a presence on those platforms, but it doesn't hurt if I can see that I could share the podcast episode on Twitter with someone, and I can see that they're probably actively going to share it out. That's definitely a plus. But it is difficult.
Finding Out a Podcast's Reach
[00:27:19] Matty: You can go on to any platform and see how active someone is, but the other aspect is how large a reach does that podcaster have for their podcast?
Is there any source for information about reach?
[00:27:31] Michelle: The one website that I would use is ListenNotes.com, and that gives you a listener score and the global ranking. And it describes exactly what those two mean. It's based on the downloads, it's based on who's listening, where they're listening. It's also based on the consistency of the podcast host generating new episodes. I'm in the top 2%, which blows me away. That's globally. And I do average about a thousand downloads a month, but these are things that aren't public knowledge, and you don't necessarily go in asking a podcast host, hey, what are your downloads?
It's really, it's taboo. It really is. Yeah. Yeah, we don't really talk about it. And it can fluctuate. There could be a month where I get 700 downloads and then this month, I already have over 3000. So it can be all over the place, just depending on, like you said, who's sharing what, when they share it.
I like to tell my clients that when we go after podcasts, I don't want them to focus on, oh, this has 1000 downloads, and this is who we want to appear on. That's great, but if those people who are listening and leaving those thousand reviews could care less about what you have to say, then it's a complete waste of time. You'd rather get on the show that has 4, 5, 10, 20 reviews, isn't getting a ton of downloads, but every single listener wants to hear exactly what you have to say and are interested in it.
[00:29:02] Michelle: So to me, that's of more importance when it comes to my clients. I'd rather that we get on shows where the target audience is reached, versus getting on some massive show where, we don't want to be on Joe Rogan. It's not going to make sense. Yes, he's got a ton of listeners, but are those the listeners that my specific need to reach and want to reach? And it just, it doesn't make sense in that sense. I think there's so many different factors to look at.
And that's why I say, look at the various episodes, don't just look at one. Read the description of the overall show, listen to the trailer, look at the hosts and stalk them a bit, look at their different social media accounts and what are they promoting? What are they really about? What's their background? And knowing all of these things ahead of time will help you know if this is worthy of going after, or if it is going to be a waste of time, in that sense.
The Power of Repurposing Content
[00:29:55] Matty: So we had referenced earlier about repurposing content. And I think that's another plus, that the number of downloads or listens you get immediately is less important if you're able to repurpose the content over time.
So I'm wondering if you can talk about how you go about repurposing content that really belongs to someone else. First of all, how do you pursue getting the right to do that, and then what are the mechanisms you can use to repurpose that content?
[00:30:23] Michelle: Well, one of the easiest ways is to ask. You can get downloads of the actual episode, in a lot of cases directly from whatever platform you're using. Or simply ask the host, can I get the download, or do you do a transcript? Because you're going to want that transcript, even whether you're listening to it and you take notes as you would for show notes, or you can download the transcript and read through and look for quotes of yourself.
The other thing is that podcast hosts love downloads, so if you ask for an embeddable link for your website, chances are they're going to give you one pretty freely. And that will go right to their downloads, so it counts towards their statistics, which they want. And you can create, you know, a blog post out of it.
[00:31:06] Michelle: Say I was featured on this podcast, and we talked about these things and then include the link so they can listen to it directly from your website, and it's benefiting the podcast hosts.
So it becomes a win-win. Every host wants to be thanked for having their platform be utilized, because they're doing it for free. And so to me, the biggest way that you can say thank you, is by sharing it as often as you can, with as many people as you can. Then take that transcript and the quotes from yourself and make them into social media graphics, make them into a tweet. They promote you as the thought leader, and then you can link back to the podcast show.
So again, you're creating more downloads and broadening the audience that's going to listen to it. It's thanking the host. And I have yet to come in contact with the host who says, no, don't share it, please.
Listen before Pitching
[00:32:00] Matty: Yeah, exactly. And I'm realizing, probably should have switch these around, but when we were talking about picking the podcasts that you want to pitch to, I think an obvious one to start with is the podcasts that you listen to, if it's a good match.
So you don't want to force yourself on somebody, if you're writing cozy mysteries and you love to listen to cooking podcasts, then maybe that's not a good match. But if it's appropriate, then you're the best person to understand whether it's going to be of interest to that podcast host, and as a listener, you understand what their listeners are looking for.
[00:32:35] Michelle: Exactly. And that's why I say to listen to the show before you pitch to it, so you do get that perspective of, what are they looking for? What kind of content are they putting out there? Does it even interest you? And that's a great way to find out if you believe it is a match.
[00:32:50] Matty: Yeah, I think that one of the best examples I can think of this, is that a while ago I was on Sacha Black's Rebel Author Podcast. And I'd listened to her podcast, but I tended to listened to her personal update, and then I skipped through some stuff, and then I would listen to her interview, and then I would skip through some stuff.
And what I realized, like thank heavens that I didn't skip through everything, because before I went on the podcast, I listened to one all the way through, and I realized at the end of every episode, she asks people to describe some moment when they let loose their inner rebel. And I was like, oh my gosh. If I had heard that on the spur of the moment without time to think about it, I think I would have panicked a bit.
But I think a lot of podcast hosts have that kind of characteristic thing that they do that they probably expect you to know and be prepared for.
[00:33:43] Michelle: One would hope, and I have a funny story on that one because I had a client who I not only pitched her, but I produced her show. And so I listened to every single episode, and she had ending conclusion question of, if someone were to play you in a movie, who would it be? That's how she ended every single one.
Then she interviewed me, and I swear to you, I was like a deer in the headlights. And I'm like, are you kidding me? You ask this to everybody, I know this, I write their answers down and here I'm going, I don't know.
[00:34:13] Matty: Did you ever say something?
[00:34:15] Michelle: I said something, I don't remember what it was, but yeah, I think maybe it was Meg Ryan or Drew Barrymore. Somewhere in between the two, but even if you do listen to it all the time, I think you kind of get sucked into the moment of, you're here in your present and for me, I totally forgot.
And I also think that another experience I had, and I was very thoroughly prepped for this, but I was on the Writing Community Chat Show, I think it's called. And they were having their first ever game show. And I was on the visiting team with Dale Roberts and Keith Wheeler.
[00:34:50] Matty: And they were like, you pretty much have to show up being willing to look like an idiot. And I signed up, I was willing to look like an idiot. But if I hadn't known, if I had just gotten in there and hadn't realized what the shtick was, that would have, could have been a very bad hour, not only for me, but for everybody else.
Crafting the Pitch Email
[00:35:10] Matty: So let's get really down to brass tacks. Last thing I want to talk about is crafting the pitch email. So is there any kind of formula you can provide to people to help them, once they've identified the podcasts they want to pitch, how they should go about that, what information they should include?
Make the Pitch About Them and Their Audience
[00:35:26] Michelle: Yeah, so I always open up with. Here's what I relate to with your podcast. I like your show, I appreciate your show, and then name a specific episode or two. Who's a guest that's been on, why is it that you relate to it, and get personal. I think that the best emails or the best pitches are ones that are relatable.
Otherwise, copy and paste, it doesn't stand out. And I get my fair share of them for my own show where I literally just, I just stop. If there's no link in it, it gets put away right away. If you don't relate to it and you know the name of my show, but that's it, you don't even know my name, hey there, no, it's not, Hey there. I have a name, so please do that bare minimum amount of research. And be personal, share of yourself, just as the host has been sharing of themselves in their episodes, relate that way.
And then say, here's why I think I'd be a great guest, because your audience is going to learn this. And make it about them. This is not about you.
Ultimately, we all know that you're pitching yourself because you want to be interviewed and that's all about you, but we don't want to make it seem like you want it to be about you. We want to educate the audience. We want to share something with them. We want the audience to listen and learn something new from you.
So make it about the audience. What is the host going to gain from having you on versus anyone else? What makes you stand out? And then go into two or three sentences about yourself, not your full-blown bio. You're going to attach all of that. But you know, two sentences of, this is who I am, what my background is. This is the book I've written. If it's going to be released, what's the launch date?
And then say, here are some of the expert topics I have that I believe are a good fit for your show, and then list them out. But like I said before, don't list them all out. They can look at your media kit. Get specific on which ones you think relate best to that specific show.
And then mention where you've recently been featured, whether it's in the media or it is another podcast and link to those. Hosts really love to know that you've been on another show, that you have the ability to speak intelligently, that you've done this before. It's not your first time. So link to those.
If you haven't, don't worry about that though, because you are going to land that first interview and then you can update your pitch with that. And then let them know if they have questions, they can contact you and attach to your media kit, and then sign off.
And then I recommend that you follow up in two or three weeks and do it gently. I'm checking in. I'm just seeing if you have any questions or would like to interview me.
Gentle Follow Up on Unanswered Pitches
[00:38:06] Michelle: And then another two or three weeks, I'll say, hi, I'm checking in one last time. And so they know this is final, this is it. And oftentimes, it's on that third email that I'll get a host to go, oh yes, I meant to get back to you or, oh, it went in my spam, but suddenly it came in my inbox, and that'll prompt them to come to you.
But you know, be gentle and kind in your follow-ups, just as you would want someone else. I've gotten the most random follow-ups of one word. Literally, I'm not kidding, somebody went, Bing! They actually spelled that, b I N G with an exclamation, that was it. That was their follow-up.
[00:38:44] Matty: Yeah, that's not good.
[00:38:45] Michelle: No. And this was an agency, too. I think that also, I'll say to that extent, that if you are hiring an agency, ask them about their process. What does a follow up look like? You're paying good money for this. So don't be afraid to ask.
If any of my clients asked me, hey, what does my, they actually know what their skeleton pitch looks like because they see it before it goes out. They proof and approve their media kit before it goes out. So I'm very transparent in everything that I do.
They have access to their Trello board, so they know exactly when an email goes out. They can look at it any time. They can see what episode was related to in the pitch. But don't be afraid to ask these questions. That's my belief. I think that if you're going to pay me to do a service and to represent you, then you have every right to ask those questions. You shouldn't be paying good money for an email that says "bing." And there are people who are out there doing it, and don't know that's the service that's going out there representing them. Think of yourself as being the person on the receiving end of the email. And if you're gentle and kind, and not pushy or salesy, then that's really what's going to also win people over. So watch the tone of your email.
And that's really it. Three emails max is what I say, and space them out. And I say, space them out because we as hosts have other jobs. Like you just said, you're two months out with your interviews, so there's no need for you to be looking for a guest to fill tomorrow's slot. You can take your time and your emails and maybe you've gotten a guest request, but you don't want to read it until you have time because you have all this other work to get through.
[00:40:23] Michelle: So that's why I say, don't be pushy. This isn't pitching to the media where you need to be on tonight's six o'clock news. It's not the same. That's now, you know, time is of the essence, whereas a podcast it's much more relaxed and give it a few weeks in-between.
[00:40:38] Matty: Yeah, I think that the other thing that I'll throw out there and I'll be curious for your thoughts on this is that, as someone who's starting to be pitched by agencies for guests to be on The Indy Author Podcast, the two things that I want to ask them are, does your client know you're pitching me?
Working with an Agency
[00:40:57] Matty: Because what I don't want to have happen is that an overenthusiastic agency pitches their client to me, the client and I get on the interview together and it's clear that there is a disconnect, or for whatever reason, they're in a different kind of area.
So a good example is, I often get pitched by agencies for authors who have written a fiction book, and they want to go on a podcast and talk about their fiction book.
And I have to say, it's not really that kind of podcast, but if I weren't vetting it, it would be easy to get on an interview with somebody like that and then have them wanting to talk about the book and me trying to steer them in some other directions.
So to what extent does your client approve the podcast that you're pitching them to, in your own scenario?
[00:41:42] Michelle: They don't approve the podcast that I pitch to. We go through on the types of podcasts, they give me a wish list, so we're on the same page of the types of podcast to pitch to.
Like I said, they all have access to their own Trello boards, so they see who is going to be pitched to, who has been pitched. But then also once we get a yes, I communicate with them, I send them links, this is what the podcast is about. This is why I pitched you. This is the topic you're going to speak on. And they can say no at that point. I expect them to know a little bit too, all you have to do is click on the link.
I'm providing you the info just as I provided the host the info, to make sure that we are all on the same page.
But I think that also goes back to the agency, them not doing their research on your show. If they're pitching the wrong type of client to be on it, to promote the book. So yeah, I would say that's the agency's fault for sure.
Pitches From Guests without Prior Appearances
[00:42:38] Matty: Yeah. The other thing I wanted to pose, and again, get your input on is, if someone doesn't have any exposure yet, they haven't done any podcast interviews. If I were considering them, something that I would find helpful is if they could point me to a video of them talking about their topic. Because I'm not necessarily looking for a long track record of podcast appearances.
In fact, if someone has just done like 10 podcast appearances in the last year on this topic, it may be less appealing to me because I figure, that’s already out there.
But what I'm looking for is someone who's relatively comfortable on video and audio, talking about their topic. And is that something that seems reasonable, that people put up a video on social media or YouTube, just illustrating what their style would be?
[00:43:27] Michelle: Absolutely, and for the majority of my clients, even though a lot have never been on a podcast, some don't have social media presence that they're just ramping up because they've been in other places, there is some sort of a video somewhere of them speaking. So even if it doesn't relate specifically to their topic, maybe it was on something else of a past career, I'll still utilize that, because it showcases that they are intelligent, they can speak on a topic, they can carry on a conversation. So yes, I definitely say, just give me wherever you've been featured, and we'll work with it.
And then I constantly am updating. Every time we get a new interview that goes live, everything gets updated, the media kit, the pitch. So it's the constant staying on top of what is up to date. I don't think that's an unreasonable ask at all. They should have something somewhere, especially in this day and age.
Yeah, that's so great. Well, Michelle, thank you so much for sharing all those tips. And I would love to invite you to tell people where they can go to find out more about you and your work online.
[00:44:30] Michelle: Thank you so much. My website is the MLGCollective.com. You can also find me on Instagram, Twitter, Instagram. I'm @MichelleGlogovac, Twitter, it's @MCGlogovac. They couldn't spell it all out. It was too long. And then you can hear me every Tuesday, except last week, on My Simplified Life, which is available on all podcast platforms.
[00:44:53] Matty: Great. Thank you so much, Michelle.
[00:44:54] Michelle: Thank you.
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Michelle! Is pursuing podcast guest spots something you plan to pursue to support your book launch—or maybe to reignite information on a backlist title?
I’d love to hear your thoughts!
However, I don’t get notifications of comments posted here, which means I may miss some, and my website builder doesn’t enable commenters to respond to a specific comment, which makes it hard to engage in any kind of dialogue. So I’m recommending that you post any comments on YouTube. Just scroll to the top of this page and click the YouTube link to leave a comment on this or on any other aspect of the show—and to chat with your fellow creative voyagers!
