Episode 223 - The Tolling Bell & The Story Hypothesis with JP Rindfleisch
January 30, 2024
"When looking at what we're taught in school, theme was such a common aspect that was taught, but I didn't like how it was taught. It was too broad. Theme is so important to your story, but half the people are unsure what their theme is, so they're saying it's about love when really it's a tragedy. And so, I thought, what about if there was a simple formula that people could use that could help guide them through the story?" —JP Rindfleisch
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JP Rindfleisch discusses THE TOLLING BELL & THE STORY HYPOTHESIS, including the formula of Story Hypothesis (initial want + developing need + true need); the nine fundamental needs and identifying the driving needs; using the Story Hypothesis to create a resonating theme; the downside of how the concept of "theme" is usually taught; the power of a non-hierarchical approach; applying the Story Hypothesis to a series; and considering the driving needs of the antagonist (with a fun conversation about Hannibal Lecter).
If one of those topics piques your interest, you can easily jump to that section on YouTube by clicking on the flagged timestamps in the description.
If one of those topics piques your interest, you can easily jump to that section on YouTube by clicking on the flagged timestamps in the description.
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JP Rindfleisch IX, is a writer, editor, and podcaster from Rockford, Illinois, who loves the dark, strange, and queer. They co-author NRDS: National Recently Deceased Services with Jeff Elkins and the Leah Ackerman Dark Urban Fantasy series with AB Cohen. JP also penned the cozy queer fantasy Mandrake Manor. They co-host Writer's Ink podcast with JD Barker, Christine Daigle, Kevin Tumlinson, and Patrick O'Donnell, discussing author interviews and publishing news. JP also leads a local authors' group in Rockford Illinois with over 60 members, dedicated to promoting, educating, and connecting writers with opportunities to enhance their careers and community presence.
Links
JP's Links:
Author website: https://www.jprindfleischix.com/
Facebook profile: https://www.facebook.com/jprindfleischix/
Instagram profile: https://www.instagram.com/jp_rindfleisch/
Matty's Links:
Affiliate links
Events
Author website: https://www.jprindfleischix.com/
Facebook profile: https://www.facebook.com/jprindfleischix/
Instagram profile: https://www.instagram.com/jp_rindfleisch/
Matty's Links:
Affiliate links
Events
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with JP! What did you think about the concept of the nine fundamental needs, and the pros and cons of using a non-hierarchical structure rather than a hierarchical one, like the Maslow model?
Please post your comments on YouTube--and I'd love it if you would subscribe while you're there!
Are you getting value from the podcast? Consider supporting me on Patreon or through Buy Me a Coffee!
AI-generated Summary
Introduction
Storytelling is an art, but behind that art lies the mechanics of creating a great story. Understanding the story's underlying structure can provide insights into why a narrative works and how you can improve your own stories. One such tool is the story hypothesis, a unique formula that can guide a story's structure, particularly the narrative's character arc.
The Story Hypothesis: A Synopsis
The Story Hypothesis, a tool crafted by J.P. Rindfleisch, mandates a formula connecting a character's needs throughout a story. This formula moves from an initial want to a developing need and finally to their true need, forming the character's journey. By identifying and focusing on these needs, writers can craft a more coherent, engaging script that resonates with readers.
This formula's advantage is that it does not need to be strictly chronological. The transformation of the wants and needs can occur in back-and-forth motion through the story, echoing the ebbs and flows of real-life expectations, disappointments, and triumphs.
Unpacking the Story Hypothesis
Examining the story hypothesis requires a component basis understanding. Rindfleisch primarily uses Max-Neef's fundamental human needs— nine pillars of human necessities that constitute the basis of a character's motivation. Ranging from subsistence, protection, affection, understanding, participation, recreation, creation, identity, and freedom, these nine needs offer a wide spectrum of motivations for character actions.
Applying the Story Hypothesis
Examining an existing story through the lens of the story hypothesis offers the opportunity to understand its principles better. Let's analyze the dystopian trilogy, "The Hunger Games," within this context. If we use the Story Hypothesis formula, Katniss Everdeen's journey might read something like this: Katniss's quest for identity leads her to fulfill affection and protection (true need) by developing participation. Every step closer to embracing her true identity assists her in understanding herself and her surroundings, leading to genuine affection and love.
Such a formula doesn't just apply during the creation phase of a story; it can also be an excellent revision tool, identifying scenes which may need alteration to align better with the core story hypothesis.
In conclusion
The Story Hypothesis is not the definitive tool for creating or revising a narrative, but it serves as a guide, offering rich insight into the journey their characters undertake. It challenges the rigidity of other storytelling hierarchies and offers a more complex, nuanced way of understanding characters and their journeys. As every storyteller knows, understanding the mechanics of your craft is just as important as the creative elements. The Story Hypothesis is one more tool in the writer's kit — a tool that could significantly enhance storytelling dynamics.
Storytelling is an art, but behind that art lies the mechanics of creating a great story. Understanding the story's underlying structure can provide insights into why a narrative works and how you can improve your own stories. One such tool is the story hypothesis, a unique formula that can guide a story's structure, particularly the narrative's character arc.
The Story Hypothesis: A Synopsis
The Story Hypothesis, a tool crafted by J.P. Rindfleisch, mandates a formula connecting a character's needs throughout a story. This formula moves from an initial want to a developing need and finally to their true need, forming the character's journey. By identifying and focusing on these needs, writers can craft a more coherent, engaging script that resonates with readers.
This formula's advantage is that it does not need to be strictly chronological. The transformation of the wants and needs can occur in back-and-forth motion through the story, echoing the ebbs and flows of real-life expectations, disappointments, and triumphs.
Unpacking the Story Hypothesis
Examining the story hypothesis requires a component basis understanding. Rindfleisch primarily uses Max-Neef's fundamental human needs— nine pillars of human necessities that constitute the basis of a character's motivation. Ranging from subsistence, protection, affection, understanding, participation, recreation, creation, identity, and freedom, these nine needs offer a wide spectrum of motivations for character actions.
Applying the Story Hypothesis
Examining an existing story through the lens of the story hypothesis offers the opportunity to understand its principles better. Let's analyze the dystopian trilogy, "The Hunger Games," within this context. If we use the Story Hypothesis formula, Katniss Everdeen's journey might read something like this: Katniss's quest for identity leads her to fulfill affection and protection (true need) by developing participation. Every step closer to embracing her true identity assists her in understanding herself and her surroundings, leading to genuine affection and love.
Such a formula doesn't just apply during the creation phase of a story; it can also be an excellent revision tool, identifying scenes which may need alteration to align better with the core story hypothesis.
In conclusion
The Story Hypothesis is not the definitive tool for creating or revising a narrative, but it serves as a guide, offering rich insight into the journey their characters undertake. It challenges the rigidity of other storytelling hierarchies and offers a more complex, nuanced way of understanding characters and their journeys. As every storyteller knows, understanding the mechanics of your craft is just as important as the creative elements. The Story Hypothesis is one more tool in the writer's kit — a tool that could significantly enhance storytelling dynamics.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Matty: Hello, and welcome to the Indy Author Podcast. Today, my guest is J. P. Rindfleisch. Hey, J. P., how are you doing?
[00:00:06] JP: I'm doing well, how are you?
[00:00:08] Matty: I'm doing great, thank you. To give our listeners and viewers a little background on you, J. P. Rindfleisch IX is a writer, editor, and podcaster from Rockford, Illinois, who loves the dark, strange, and queer. They co-author "Nerds, Recently Deceased Services" with Jeff Elkins and the Leah Ackerman Dark Urban Fantasy series with A. B. Cohen. J. P. also penned the cozy queer fantasy "Mandrake Manor." They co-host the Writer's Inc. podcast with J. D. Barker, Christine Daigle, Kevin Tomlinson, and Patrick O'Donnell.
[00:01:05] Matty: Obviously, I haven't listened to the Writer's Inc. podcast for a long time. I'm going to have to get back to that, where they discuss author interviews and publishing news. JP also leads a local author's group in Rockford, Illinois, with over 60 members, dedicated to promoting, educating, and connecting writers with opportunities to enhance their careers and community presence. And I would like to thank Jeff Elkins, the Dialogue Doctor, for recommending JP for the podcast and for introducing us. So thank you, Jeff, for that.
[00:01:31] JP: Yeah, thanks, Jeff.
Using the Story Hypothesis to create a resonating theme
[00:01:06] Matty: And we are going to be talking about using the story hypothesis to create a resonating theme for your readers. And JP, whenever I talk to anyone who has thought carefully about a topic like this, especially around craft and written about it, I also like to ask, what did you see either in your own writing or the writing of other writers you work with that led you to believe that this was going to be a necessary piece of information to share with your fellow writers?
[00:01:31] JP: Yeah, so fun fact, I didn't know if I was actually going to write Story Hypothesis. It was just an idea I had, and it was something that I kept talking about, and people were like, if I don't get a book about this, I'm going to hunt you down until I get one. So I was like, fine, fine, I'll write one. But ultimately, I started this writing journey, meeting J. Thorn and Zach Bohannon, and I really view them both as mentors. I've used a lot of their services, and I ended up becoming a 3 Story Method editor through them. 3 Story Method is such a simple way of having common communication between two people about the story without having super big methods that people need to learn and understand. Like I can tell someone what the three-story method is in a sitting, and we can start discussing the story and figure out and break it down.
The downside of how "theme" is usually taught
[00:02:20] JP: This is where the story hypothesis came in because there's something that I felt was missing. So, when looking at what we're taught in school, theme was such a common aspect that was taught, but I did not like how it was taught. It was too broad. It didn't really help me as a writer, but at the same time, it's one of those things that everyone always talks about. Theme is so important to your story, and I'm like, yeah, but half the people don't like it. Half the people are unsure what their theme is, so they're just saying it's about love when really it's a tragedy. And so, I thought, well, what about if there was a simple formula that people could use that could help them guide through the story.
[00:03:24] This is something that I was thinking about. I was using it in the way that I was writing to really hit like a tolling bell or a resonation with a reader. It was a culmination of the theme, the golden theme, but it was this idea that there's an architecture or a structure behind the story that has this resonance behind it. So, you just needed a formula, and that's where the story hypothesis came in.
[00:04:12] Matty: And we may be addressing this as you continue talking about the story hypothesis, but I think theme is one of those words that not only do people kind of toss it around, but I suspect that because it's so common, people are bringing different definitions to it without being aware that they're bringing different definitions to it. Is that something you want to talk about right up front, or do you want to kind of tease that out as we talk about the story hypothesis throughout?
[00:04:47] JP: Let's dive right in.
[00:04:14] Matty: Excellent.
[00:04:15] JP: In general, a theme is a subject, a conversation, a topic, more or less. It's the root of a story, and at the end of the day, it's the thing that will convey the needs that will imprint on the reader. So that's really the highlight: need, character need, and character wants. It's your undertolling or underscoring theme of your story. It's what's driving the story. It's what does your character want? And that resonates with your readers.
[00:05:03] Matty: You had used the example of some people say their stories about the theme is love when it's really a tragedy. Can you mention a couple of well-known books or movies or just things that everybody's going to be familiar with and share what you consider the theme of those works to be?
The formula of Story Hypothesis = Initial want + developing need + true need
[00:05:03] JP: Yeah, I mean, so, talking about story hypothesis, I kind of want to take a step back to explain a couple of things before hopping right into that. But the formula for the story hypothesis is a character's need for their initial want leads them to fulfill their true need by developing their developing need. It looks at three things that develop throughout the story: what a character thinks they want at the beginning of the story, what's driving them forward, this underscoring development throughout the story, and then the actual thing they need to attain by the end of the story. I know that was a lot of information, and hopefully that will convey as we talk about this, but using a method that we'll dive into, we can look at stories like "The Matrix."
With "The Matrix," at the beginning of the story, Neo doesn't know what the Matrix is, but it's this thing that he has been dying to know about. We jump in where he's been this hacker, hearing grumblings about this thing, and he just wants to understand. Understanding is the need that he's been desiring. As the story develops, that need for understanding turns into a need of "Who am I within the Matrix?" Because as we learn throughout the story, Neo, an anagram for "The One," is basically a savior character. It's really a story about identity, answering the question of who am I and where do I belong.
[00:06:48] Those are the needs that really pull on people. It's the thing that resonates within the story: understanding the world around you and then understanding who you are in that world.
Nine fundamental needs
[00:07:26] Matty: You had mentioned the three questions or parts of the formula, the initial want, the developing need, and the true need, and then the other aspect of it that I thought was very interesting is this idea of fundamental human needs, and you're tapping into something called the Max Neef Nine fundamental needs. I'd never heard of that before. I'm familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which I think is probably what everybody learns either in college psychology or in some class in the corporate world. Can you talk about that idea of how the fundamental needs work in, with the story hypothesis and why you tapped into this Max Neef model rather than something else like Maslow's hierarchy?
[00:09:53] JP: So there's actually a whole chapter on how much I dislike Maslow, and at the end of the day, hierarchical structures are limiting factors when it comes to being a writer. When you look at something like Maslow's Hierarchy of Need, it's all about self-actualization, about a person hitting these levels of needs, moving up this ladder until they are an individual, self-actualized. Unfortunately, that doesn't represent all cultures around the world. Personally, when I was trying to use this hierarchical need in storytelling, I found that I was missing out on something if I wanted a culture that didn't represent this sort of thinking because I would have to shoehorn in how needs fulfilled.
Let's look at a culture that praises communal efforts. That's not self-actualization. That's not how a pyramid's going to work for them. So how could I do that? And this involved a lot of conversations with a lot of different author friends, but at the end of the day, Max Neef, it's nine fundamental human needs, none are really hierarchical of each other. The one you could argue as a base level need is subsistence, which is the need for food at the end of the day, that's what it is. Obviously, if you don't have food, you're not going to be able to have identity and whatnot, but what it does in terms of storytelling is it allows you to no longer have to fit your ideas and your thoughts of a character's wants and needs into a hierarchical structure, you can pull on different ones and create different stories. So you could write a story about a starving artist that is creating something gorgeous and wonderful and something that goes and transcends humanity because that's a way that these needs would function that Maslow's technically doesn't. Because that character is starving, that character isn't able to move up that ladder or pyramid because they don't have their basic physical needs.
[00:09:22] Matty: Oh, interesting. So I'm just going to read through the nine. I did a little googling before our conversation. So subsistence, protection, affection, understanding, participation, recreation, creation, identity, and freedom. So when you're talking about the story hypothesis, do you think of that as mainly a structural approach to a story as opposed to a character development tool to use?
[00:09:53] JP: So I think of this as a way of having, one, a conversation with yourself with simple structures. When you can create a formula like, well, when I use it and I create a formula like this, it helps me ground myself and really look at the story in these simplified structure ways. So, I like to look at these nine as pillars to fit in how I want to tell a story.
[00:00:00] JP: With "Mandrake Manor," I really focused on it being a story that's basically Charmed meets HBO's "Looking." It's a romance where people realize they have magical powers. So, there are certain obvious things. If someone discovers they have magic, they begin a journey of understanding, a journey of identity. Why do I have this magic? What is this magic? Those sorts of questions. When we talk about romance, you're talking about affection, that's the story you'll probably be telling because romance will have affection either in the developing need or the final need, depending on the story you want to tell.
So, when I'm looking at these specific structures, it makes it easy if I just have nine to pick from. I don't have to think about special words and whatnot. I've got nine. And if I have nine, then I need to really use them efficiently.
[00:01:01] Matty: Do you have any guidance about when you're considering these nine? There's going to be a primary one, for example, affection in the case of a romance. Then do you check the story to make sure you're hitting all the other needs, or are you trying to hit all of them, identifying the driving needs?
[00:01:22] JP: Overkill. So, there are nine needs, and the story hypothesis for a standard novel has three that we pick from. Originally, it had two, but I really felt like there was this developing need, this thing that grows over time. As a person has it, they are rewarded with the other two needs. I'll explain what I mean by that in a second. These nine fundamental needs are what a person in society should have in different levels, representing how people live.
Max Neve created this as an economist looking at Chile, removing the concept of financials and focusing on the needs people would need fulfilled to be considered top of the line, in a culture and society we'd want to live in. If I could measure all these nine things separately, how can I determine if all are at 100%, or if we really need to focus on one in this economy, etc.
So, technically, a human being would have all nine in different meters. When we tell stories, if we overload readers with these nine needs, it's not a story that resonates. I personally use this to resonate with readers. Looking at something like "The Matrix," starting with Neo wanting to understand, his story ending in identity with his true need. What's the thing in the middle? It was participation. Whenever he got involved with others, he was rewarded with understanding, identity. When he pushed back, he was imprisoned, his understanding sometimes taken away, friends imprisoned or killed. There's this growth arc that happened. Obviously, the writers of "The Matrix" didn't think of story hypothesis, but looking at it through that lens, that's what I noticed. That's the formula I made.
[00:14:01] Matty: I can imagine that the number of needs that you reflect in a story could also be a function of how much material you have to work with. If you're writing a short story, then you probably are looking through this and saying, you know, this is going to be a story where the character is primarily focused on participation or primarily focused on identity or something like that.
Like identifying the one human need that the short story addresses is probably a good check. I can imagine, you know, I just read the latest Robert Galbraith book, the Cormoran Strike series. If you look through that series, you could probably pick out for each of the main characters because you have the wherewithal, you have the real estate, to delve into it. Someone working through a series might say, I'm on book 12 and you know what, I've never really talked about recreation or understanding. It might be a way of identifying a hole in a character where you do have that opportunity to delve into different needs.
[00:15:08] JP: Yeah, definitely. When looking at story hypotheses through a series, there are different things that we would pull on based on if you're writing to a genre or if you are a long-running series and you really want to pull on all of those needs as the story progresses. One series that comes to mind is "The Hunger Games." It's a story about a character dealing with an uprising and is at the forefront of that. The need or the tolling bell that the entire series pulls on is participation, rising up against oppressors, forming a community, and saying we won't stand for this oppression. We will participate together. You could argue freedom as another option, but it really focuses on this communal effort. The story starts with districts separated, communities broken apart, and they come together to face this bigger foe. The tolling bell for the entire story is participation.
Now, looking at the first book, Katniss isn't super interested in everyone else; she's more interested in not dying. But, she gets rewarded every time she participates. Her ultimate goal in book one is freedom. She says, come hell or high water, I'm going to get my freedom. I'm going to eat these berries, and I'm going to die, but that's going to be my freedom. That's what it takes. Participation grows throughout the story. Every time she works with someone, she's rewarded. Unfortunately, with one character, she's not so rewarded when that character dies, but it creates this growth arc for her. It's really when she wants to break those rules, and she wants to say, I have this community with me. My original District 12 Peeta is with me. We're the last two. I'm not going to kill him. We are doing this together. I'm full 100 percent participation. Then she gets her freedom. As the story progresses, I would say that the last book, her true need or whatever, is going to be the fulfillment of participation.
[00:17:31] Matty: Well, it's interesting because if you look at the first couple, there are the needs at the macro level, like you're talking about the ones that provide resonance for the reader. And then there are the needs at the micro level. If you look at, You know, just the first chapter or chapters of "The Hunger Games." So, subsistence, obviously. There's hunting, protection; she's trying to protect her sister for whom she feels affection, there's kind of an understanding, she comes to an understanding about her role in the games as a replacement for her sister, so she steps into participation. Not quite sure about recreation or recreation yet. You know, I think those ones become more, as you're saying, the macro ones are the ones you're talking about with identity and freedom and so on. But it's interesting to look at it at the micro and the macro levels.
So we've been talking about a formula, the story hypothesis formula, and there's also this idea, and we're going back a little bit now to the idea of the initial want, the developing need, and the true need about where in the story you expect the character to be moving from one of these to the other. Can you talk about that a little bit more from a structural point of view?
[00:18:41] JP: Yeah. So, let me just grab this really quick, because I did create something for "Silence of the Lambs," because I thought that would be fun to talk about, you know, as one decides. But, I think when looking at something like "Silence of the Lambs," we could argue a story hypothesis along the lines of Starling's need for understanding leads her to fulfill identity by developing participation.
Taking a step back, I think that we're in a state where Starling needs to understand the mind of a serial killer. That's really the kind of goal at the beginning of the story. Her identity is less of a who am I as much as am I good? Am I good enough? Am I a good cop? Am I, you know, all of these sorts of questions.
And then developing participation. I think in terms of this story, it's participation with a level of wariness, agreeing to be involved with working with a serial killer, Hannibal Lecter, in this sort of participating with what he wants without giving too much. If she gives too much, she runs in danger. So much danger. In many cases, but we can see this throughout the story, and I have some different types of scenes, like a resistance scene at the beginning; she's hesitating to engage with Hannibal Lecter, she's worried about those dangers that are going to happen, and because of that, because she's not participating, he's not going to give her answers.
She's not going to understand. So you can see how by her not participating, she won't understand. That's that core need. That's that initial want that she has. She has some failures because of that, because she's struggling with how much does she participate? Sometimes it's too much, sometimes it's too little. And so we see these failures that develop throughout the story. And then she starts to, she has maybe a misunderstanding where Lecter's clues lead Starling astray from the investigation because she's misinterpreting what he is trying to tell her, and then we have these transformations.
So, Lecter is reshaping Starling's understanding of Buffalo Bill and his capabilities. That's when she has a breakthrough in her understanding, and now she needs to shift her focus to her true need, which is to be the good cop she's meant to be, even when she faces pushback from other cops for working with Hannibal Lecter. Despite their objections, she insists on pursuing the answers she needs.
In the way the story is told, when we have the ultimate ending, if this was a story about participation, especially with other cops, the twist where Buffalo Bill hears knocking at the door, and we see the police knocking at a door, is significant. The twist is that it's actually Starling at the other end of Buffalo Bill's door. If the true need were participation, we would have seen something different – her bringing the cops with her. However, since her true need is identity, the twist works well because she's alone, fulfilling her needs.
Looking at a revelation or confrontation, such as the climax scene where she has developed the skills through participation and understanding, and is now ready to confront and prove herself, we see that resolution at the end where she truly becomes a competent FBI agent.
So that's how I would use these scenes or how I would expect to see a story flow, using those three needs for Hannibal Lecter or for "Silence of the Lambs."
[00:22:40] Matty: Well, it is interesting, as you were talking, any conversation about "Silence of the Lambs," I think, brings up the very interesting consideration of Hannibal Lecter as a character and this idea that you can pick someone who's objectively speaking the worst person ever, and yet, the author makes him compelling, even empathetic sometimes. Is there a different spin that you take if you're assessing the villain against the human needs? How would you apply the needs to Hannibal Lecter? We could make funny subsistence comments right off the bat.
[00:23:17] JP: Yeah, so this is something I haven't explored in this first book, but it's a conversation that's started to come up. There's this negative aspect to these needs or how they may function in this sense. One thing I really like about storytelling is how villains inside characters form as shadows and reflections of your main character. In the sense that Starling has a need for understanding and identity, and participation, Hannibal Lecter has corrupted versions of those. He wants to understand Starling, less about himself, but more, he has this weird desire to pick people apart.
It's both physically and mentally, like one of his strong desires is just to know how other people function. You can see it's this sort of understanding of other people's identities. It's less about him and more about other people. I don't have a full answer, but I think it falls within the lines of these corruptions of the needs or these other versions of them.
An example I can think of that isn't exactly for "Silence of the Lambs," but whenever looking at things like Rising Up Stories, Hunger Games, where we have participation as a form of good, participation can also be a form of bad. If you're looking at participation as participating in a community where you have a voice in that community, what's a negative aspect of that? Being a dictator, leading a cult, all of these things where you might be fulfilling your own need, but you're absorbing the need of others because you are this nexus of that need. So I think there's a fun thing to play with in there that I just don't have fully set yet.
[00:25:25] Matty: I'm going to ask one more question about Hannibal and the human needs. So one of them is freedom. On a very obvious level, freedom is a need that he has. It's a goal he achieves. Would you consider that as applied to Hannibal Lecter, that freedom is, in fact, the primary human need, or is it one of those where it's only superficially the human need and there's a more meaty, so to speak, need that he has achieved by the end of the movie.
[00:25:59] JP: I wonder because I see this underlying need for freedom, but at the same time, I feel like everything's kind of a game, you know? So what if he's in prison? He'll get out eventually. It's less of a he's just waiting for the opportune time to really show his mastermind. I think his desire or need is to prove that he is what everyone thinks he is. That almost makes me think that his need is identity. All the time. It's a corrupted form of, "I am the monster that you think I am," sort of thing, and using that identity as a means of manipulation to get what he wants.
[00:26:47] Matty: I do kind of feel as if there's a part of Hannibal that, that is so, does he end up on the beach at the end of the first movie, or is that a later movie?
[00:26:54] JP: I think it's the, I'm pretty sure it's the first movie, but I haven't seen it in a while.
[00:26:59] Matty: So at whatever point he ends up on the beach, spoiler alert, there's a part of me that thinks that he's kind of missing having his visits from Clarice, like the upside of prison for Hannibal Lecter is he's going to get to talk to the most fascinating people. Whereas, on the beach, you know, he can drink his drink, he can look at the water, but what's the fun there?
[00:27:20] JP: Exactly, which leads me to question, is freedom the true need, or is that just the thing that happens because he's fulfilling these other bits?
Looking at "House of the Cerulean Sea," if that works for you, we have something like Linus's need for identity leads him to fulfill affection by developing understanding. So those are taking the three needs of identity, affection, and understanding. We really start off this book with Linus not fulfilling his identity.
He's really unhappy, just doesn't like his job. He's going through the motions or the expectations of everyone. The book starts off with things being very drab, gray, and dark. It's not a very happy place that he's in. His true need in this story is affection. He meets somebody that he's investigating, more or less, but by the end of the book, it's really about this drive to have love, not only from the main head of this orphanage but also the children that are there as well. It's a sense of belonging and love and affection. It's this understanding of his role as a person throughout the story.
[00:28:46] JP: So I like to write out the formula, and then I like to reshape it into something that makes sense to me or something that I actually want to use as a mantra. If I were to be writing "House on the Cerulean Sea" and I had developed a story hypothesis at the beginning of the story, I might say something like, "By embracing our true identity, we begin to understand ourselves more, paving the way for genuine affection and love." So, I can use a mantra like that to really have it somewhere.
When I was writing "Mandrake Manor," I had it on a whiteboard over here, and I would just see it every day. I didn't really stop, pause, and think. It's just something I saw, and then I would just be like, oh yeah, that's why I'm writing this. Because I'm trying to tell a story about affection, more or less. And so if I were writing this one, and I was looking at this, and I was saying, every time that Linus gets closer to his true identity, he understands himself more. And then he can open himself up for affection and love. So as I'm writing the story, I need him to hit these little notes where he's getting closer to himself, understanding who he is, understanding the people around him and not really imposing judgment on them. And then all of those steps along the way will get him closer and closer to affection and love. There's going to be downfalls because that happens. Stories aren't linear. They're jumpy and that happens. But, that's kind of why I use this mantra as a tool to kind of set aside and just think about as I write the story.
[00:30:20] Matty: Got it. So, do you think that writers should go into writing a story with the idea of their formula in mind? Or might writers eventually get to the same endpoint if they start writing, and then they look back at a first draft and they say, oh, I see what's going on here and then they use that formula to, what's the word I want, solidify what they're trying to achieve?
[00:30:45] JP: 100%. So I used Story Hypothesis when I was drafting "Mandrake Manor," but I used Story Hypothesis when I was revising "Nerds." I hadn't used it before, and then I looked at it and I questioned what our hypothesis was, and I just kind of made sure that certain scenes, you know, were a little bit shaped in the hypothesis that I wanted it to be in.
I've had a couple of clients, which is where Story Hypothesis came from. These were conversations where I reviewed their work and provided my interpretation of it. Most of the time, I was hitting those notes that they wanted for their story. For example, if they were trying to embrace their true identity, but in a particular scene, the character was doing something cruel, it led me to question if the scene matched their intended hypothesis. We would then have a conversation to explore if there was a different choice the character could make in that scene for better flow. In revising, especially through conversation, Story Hypothesis proves to be a useful tool. It can be applied whenever, making it effective for various scenarios.
[00:32:54] Matty: Well, I think I'm seeing also why you object to the idea of a hierarchy because I think in a hierarchical structure, all the stories would be going from a lower level to a higher level. They start out starving, but when they're done, they're all self-actualized or whatever. You could shoehorn "The Hunger Games" into that, I think, but it limits you. You can imagine a story where you want to go from participation to protection or something like that. I don't know that the storyline always has to go from more foundational to more actualized or whatever. Is that part of why you don't like the idea of the hierarchical approach?
[00:33:39] JP: Yes, so I was actually doing a scene-by-scene analysis of "The Road" that may never see the light of day. We'll find out, but regardless, "The Road" is an apocalyptic story by Cormac McCarthy where a father and son are traveling down a road to find something better. In this world, starvation is the primary concern. There's no life anywhere, so they have to find canned goods. I was using Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but there were certain scenes where they were starving, yet making decisions that seemed higher up on this hierarchy.
And I had to almost continuously justify to myself, well, of course, they're starving, but we need to move the story forward because he loves his son so much. I'm like, well, emotional love is like four steps higher in the hierarchy, but they're outside in the rain, and they're going to die. But it just begs the question, does that hierarchy work all the time? Especially in Western culture, where the focus is on self-actualization, the hierarchy works well. However, in certain stories, it just doesn't. You don't have to use Max Neef, but I think the intent of using Max Neef and the chapter about my opinions about Maslow is just to think about your structure and maybe break apart from the hierarchy.
[00:35:14] Matty: Well, JP, thank you so much. This has been so interesting. I'm going to have to listen to it a couple of times and let it simmer because I just see all sorts of great ways to apply this to my own writing and reading. I think it's going to be fun to read books and watch movies with this kind of thing in mind. Believe it or not, I've never seen "The Matrix," and it comes up so often on the podcast that this evening, that's my assignment. I'm going to go watch "The Matrix." So I'm not just nodding like I know what I'm talking about. Thank you so much, and I know everybody's going to be interested in finding out more about Story Hypothesis. Please let them know where they can go to find that out.
[00:35:50] JP: Yeah, so I tried to make it as easy as possible, www.storyhypothesis.com. It redirects to my main site, but there is a page about it, so that's probably the easiest way.
[00:36:01] Matty: Great, thank you so much!
[00:36:02] JP: Thank you!
[00:00:06] JP: I'm doing well, how are you?
[00:00:08] Matty: I'm doing great, thank you. To give our listeners and viewers a little background on you, J. P. Rindfleisch IX is a writer, editor, and podcaster from Rockford, Illinois, who loves the dark, strange, and queer. They co-author "Nerds, Recently Deceased Services" with Jeff Elkins and the Leah Ackerman Dark Urban Fantasy series with A. B. Cohen. J. P. also penned the cozy queer fantasy "Mandrake Manor." They co-host the Writer's Inc. podcast with J. D. Barker, Christine Daigle, Kevin Tomlinson, and Patrick O'Donnell.
[00:01:05] Matty: Obviously, I haven't listened to the Writer's Inc. podcast for a long time. I'm going to have to get back to that, where they discuss author interviews and publishing news. JP also leads a local author's group in Rockford, Illinois, with over 60 members, dedicated to promoting, educating, and connecting writers with opportunities to enhance their careers and community presence. And I would like to thank Jeff Elkins, the Dialogue Doctor, for recommending JP for the podcast and for introducing us. So thank you, Jeff, for that.
[00:01:31] JP: Yeah, thanks, Jeff.
Using the Story Hypothesis to create a resonating theme
[00:01:06] Matty: And we are going to be talking about using the story hypothesis to create a resonating theme for your readers. And JP, whenever I talk to anyone who has thought carefully about a topic like this, especially around craft and written about it, I also like to ask, what did you see either in your own writing or the writing of other writers you work with that led you to believe that this was going to be a necessary piece of information to share with your fellow writers?
[00:01:31] JP: Yeah, so fun fact, I didn't know if I was actually going to write Story Hypothesis. It was just an idea I had, and it was something that I kept talking about, and people were like, if I don't get a book about this, I'm going to hunt you down until I get one. So I was like, fine, fine, I'll write one. But ultimately, I started this writing journey, meeting J. Thorn and Zach Bohannon, and I really view them both as mentors. I've used a lot of their services, and I ended up becoming a 3 Story Method editor through them. 3 Story Method is such a simple way of having common communication between two people about the story without having super big methods that people need to learn and understand. Like I can tell someone what the three-story method is in a sitting, and we can start discussing the story and figure out and break it down.
The downside of how "theme" is usually taught
[00:02:20] JP: This is where the story hypothesis came in because there's something that I felt was missing. So, when looking at what we're taught in school, theme was such a common aspect that was taught, but I did not like how it was taught. It was too broad. It didn't really help me as a writer, but at the same time, it's one of those things that everyone always talks about. Theme is so important to your story, and I'm like, yeah, but half the people don't like it. Half the people are unsure what their theme is, so they're just saying it's about love when really it's a tragedy. And so, I thought, well, what about if there was a simple formula that people could use that could help them guide through the story.
[00:03:24] This is something that I was thinking about. I was using it in the way that I was writing to really hit like a tolling bell or a resonation with a reader. It was a culmination of the theme, the golden theme, but it was this idea that there's an architecture or a structure behind the story that has this resonance behind it. So, you just needed a formula, and that's where the story hypothesis came in.
[00:04:12] Matty: And we may be addressing this as you continue talking about the story hypothesis, but I think theme is one of those words that not only do people kind of toss it around, but I suspect that because it's so common, people are bringing different definitions to it without being aware that they're bringing different definitions to it. Is that something you want to talk about right up front, or do you want to kind of tease that out as we talk about the story hypothesis throughout?
[00:04:47] JP: Let's dive right in.
[00:04:14] Matty: Excellent.
[00:04:15] JP: In general, a theme is a subject, a conversation, a topic, more or less. It's the root of a story, and at the end of the day, it's the thing that will convey the needs that will imprint on the reader. So that's really the highlight: need, character need, and character wants. It's your undertolling or underscoring theme of your story. It's what's driving the story. It's what does your character want? And that resonates with your readers.
[00:05:03] Matty: You had used the example of some people say their stories about the theme is love when it's really a tragedy. Can you mention a couple of well-known books or movies or just things that everybody's going to be familiar with and share what you consider the theme of those works to be?
The formula of Story Hypothesis = Initial want + developing need + true need
[00:05:03] JP: Yeah, I mean, so, talking about story hypothesis, I kind of want to take a step back to explain a couple of things before hopping right into that. But the formula for the story hypothesis is a character's need for their initial want leads them to fulfill their true need by developing their developing need. It looks at three things that develop throughout the story: what a character thinks they want at the beginning of the story, what's driving them forward, this underscoring development throughout the story, and then the actual thing they need to attain by the end of the story. I know that was a lot of information, and hopefully that will convey as we talk about this, but using a method that we'll dive into, we can look at stories like "The Matrix."
With "The Matrix," at the beginning of the story, Neo doesn't know what the Matrix is, but it's this thing that he has been dying to know about. We jump in where he's been this hacker, hearing grumblings about this thing, and he just wants to understand. Understanding is the need that he's been desiring. As the story develops, that need for understanding turns into a need of "Who am I within the Matrix?" Because as we learn throughout the story, Neo, an anagram for "The One," is basically a savior character. It's really a story about identity, answering the question of who am I and where do I belong.
[00:06:48] Those are the needs that really pull on people. It's the thing that resonates within the story: understanding the world around you and then understanding who you are in that world.
Nine fundamental needs
[00:07:26] Matty: You had mentioned the three questions or parts of the formula, the initial want, the developing need, and the true need, and then the other aspect of it that I thought was very interesting is this idea of fundamental human needs, and you're tapping into something called the Max Neef Nine fundamental needs. I'd never heard of that before. I'm familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which I think is probably what everybody learns either in college psychology or in some class in the corporate world. Can you talk about that idea of how the fundamental needs work in, with the story hypothesis and why you tapped into this Max Neef model rather than something else like Maslow's hierarchy?
[00:09:53] JP: So there's actually a whole chapter on how much I dislike Maslow, and at the end of the day, hierarchical structures are limiting factors when it comes to being a writer. When you look at something like Maslow's Hierarchy of Need, it's all about self-actualization, about a person hitting these levels of needs, moving up this ladder until they are an individual, self-actualized. Unfortunately, that doesn't represent all cultures around the world. Personally, when I was trying to use this hierarchical need in storytelling, I found that I was missing out on something if I wanted a culture that didn't represent this sort of thinking because I would have to shoehorn in how needs fulfilled.
Let's look at a culture that praises communal efforts. That's not self-actualization. That's not how a pyramid's going to work for them. So how could I do that? And this involved a lot of conversations with a lot of different author friends, but at the end of the day, Max Neef, it's nine fundamental human needs, none are really hierarchical of each other. The one you could argue as a base level need is subsistence, which is the need for food at the end of the day, that's what it is. Obviously, if you don't have food, you're not going to be able to have identity and whatnot, but what it does in terms of storytelling is it allows you to no longer have to fit your ideas and your thoughts of a character's wants and needs into a hierarchical structure, you can pull on different ones and create different stories. So you could write a story about a starving artist that is creating something gorgeous and wonderful and something that goes and transcends humanity because that's a way that these needs would function that Maslow's technically doesn't. Because that character is starving, that character isn't able to move up that ladder or pyramid because they don't have their basic physical needs.
[00:09:22] Matty: Oh, interesting. So I'm just going to read through the nine. I did a little googling before our conversation. So subsistence, protection, affection, understanding, participation, recreation, creation, identity, and freedom. So when you're talking about the story hypothesis, do you think of that as mainly a structural approach to a story as opposed to a character development tool to use?
[00:09:53] JP: So I think of this as a way of having, one, a conversation with yourself with simple structures. When you can create a formula like, well, when I use it and I create a formula like this, it helps me ground myself and really look at the story in these simplified structure ways. So, I like to look at these nine as pillars to fit in how I want to tell a story.
[00:00:00] JP: With "Mandrake Manor," I really focused on it being a story that's basically Charmed meets HBO's "Looking." It's a romance where people realize they have magical powers. So, there are certain obvious things. If someone discovers they have magic, they begin a journey of understanding, a journey of identity. Why do I have this magic? What is this magic? Those sorts of questions. When we talk about romance, you're talking about affection, that's the story you'll probably be telling because romance will have affection either in the developing need or the final need, depending on the story you want to tell.
So, when I'm looking at these specific structures, it makes it easy if I just have nine to pick from. I don't have to think about special words and whatnot. I've got nine. And if I have nine, then I need to really use them efficiently.
[00:01:01] Matty: Do you have any guidance about when you're considering these nine? There's going to be a primary one, for example, affection in the case of a romance. Then do you check the story to make sure you're hitting all the other needs, or are you trying to hit all of them, identifying the driving needs?
[00:01:22] JP: Overkill. So, there are nine needs, and the story hypothesis for a standard novel has three that we pick from. Originally, it had two, but I really felt like there was this developing need, this thing that grows over time. As a person has it, they are rewarded with the other two needs. I'll explain what I mean by that in a second. These nine fundamental needs are what a person in society should have in different levels, representing how people live.
Max Neve created this as an economist looking at Chile, removing the concept of financials and focusing on the needs people would need fulfilled to be considered top of the line, in a culture and society we'd want to live in. If I could measure all these nine things separately, how can I determine if all are at 100%, or if we really need to focus on one in this economy, etc.
So, technically, a human being would have all nine in different meters. When we tell stories, if we overload readers with these nine needs, it's not a story that resonates. I personally use this to resonate with readers. Looking at something like "The Matrix," starting with Neo wanting to understand, his story ending in identity with his true need. What's the thing in the middle? It was participation. Whenever he got involved with others, he was rewarded with understanding, identity. When he pushed back, he was imprisoned, his understanding sometimes taken away, friends imprisoned or killed. There's this growth arc that happened. Obviously, the writers of "The Matrix" didn't think of story hypothesis, but looking at it through that lens, that's what I noticed. That's the formula I made.
[00:14:01] Matty: I can imagine that the number of needs that you reflect in a story could also be a function of how much material you have to work with. If you're writing a short story, then you probably are looking through this and saying, you know, this is going to be a story where the character is primarily focused on participation or primarily focused on identity or something like that.
Like identifying the one human need that the short story addresses is probably a good check. I can imagine, you know, I just read the latest Robert Galbraith book, the Cormoran Strike series. If you look through that series, you could probably pick out for each of the main characters because you have the wherewithal, you have the real estate, to delve into it. Someone working through a series might say, I'm on book 12 and you know what, I've never really talked about recreation or understanding. It might be a way of identifying a hole in a character where you do have that opportunity to delve into different needs.
[00:15:08] JP: Yeah, definitely. When looking at story hypotheses through a series, there are different things that we would pull on based on if you're writing to a genre or if you are a long-running series and you really want to pull on all of those needs as the story progresses. One series that comes to mind is "The Hunger Games." It's a story about a character dealing with an uprising and is at the forefront of that. The need or the tolling bell that the entire series pulls on is participation, rising up against oppressors, forming a community, and saying we won't stand for this oppression. We will participate together. You could argue freedom as another option, but it really focuses on this communal effort. The story starts with districts separated, communities broken apart, and they come together to face this bigger foe. The tolling bell for the entire story is participation.
Now, looking at the first book, Katniss isn't super interested in everyone else; she's more interested in not dying. But, she gets rewarded every time she participates. Her ultimate goal in book one is freedom. She says, come hell or high water, I'm going to get my freedom. I'm going to eat these berries, and I'm going to die, but that's going to be my freedom. That's what it takes. Participation grows throughout the story. Every time she works with someone, she's rewarded. Unfortunately, with one character, she's not so rewarded when that character dies, but it creates this growth arc for her. It's really when she wants to break those rules, and she wants to say, I have this community with me. My original District 12 Peeta is with me. We're the last two. I'm not going to kill him. We are doing this together. I'm full 100 percent participation. Then she gets her freedom. As the story progresses, I would say that the last book, her true need or whatever, is going to be the fulfillment of participation.
[00:17:31] Matty: Well, it's interesting because if you look at the first couple, there are the needs at the macro level, like you're talking about the ones that provide resonance for the reader. And then there are the needs at the micro level. If you look at, You know, just the first chapter or chapters of "The Hunger Games." So, subsistence, obviously. There's hunting, protection; she's trying to protect her sister for whom she feels affection, there's kind of an understanding, she comes to an understanding about her role in the games as a replacement for her sister, so she steps into participation. Not quite sure about recreation or recreation yet. You know, I think those ones become more, as you're saying, the macro ones are the ones you're talking about with identity and freedom and so on. But it's interesting to look at it at the micro and the macro levels.
So we've been talking about a formula, the story hypothesis formula, and there's also this idea, and we're going back a little bit now to the idea of the initial want, the developing need, and the true need about where in the story you expect the character to be moving from one of these to the other. Can you talk about that a little bit more from a structural point of view?
[00:18:41] JP: Yeah. So, let me just grab this really quick, because I did create something for "Silence of the Lambs," because I thought that would be fun to talk about, you know, as one decides. But, I think when looking at something like "Silence of the Lambs," we could argue a story hypothesis along the lines of Starling's need for understanding leads her to fulfill identity by developing participation.
Taking a step back, I think that we're in a state where Starling needs to understand the mind of a serial killer. That's really the kind of goal at the beginning of the story. Her identity is less of a who am I as much as am I good? Am I good enough? Am I a good cop? Am I, you know, all of these sorts of questions.
And then developing participation. I think in terms of this story, it's participation with a level of wariness, agreeing to be involved with working with a serial killer, Hannibal Lecter, in this sort of participating with what he wants without giving too much. If she gives too much, she runs in danger. So much danger. In many cases, but we can see this throughout the story, and I have some different types of scenes, like a resistance scene at the beginning; she's hesitating to engage with Hannibal Lecter, she's worried about those dangers that are going to happen, and because of that, because she's not participating, he's not going to give her answers.
She's not going to understand. So you can see how by her not participating, she won't understand. That's that core need. That's that initial want that she has. She has some failures because of that, because she's struggling with how much does she participate? Sometimes it's too much, sometimes it's too little. And so we see these failures that develop throughout the story. And then she starts to, she has maybe a misunderstanding where Lecter's clues lead Starling astray from the investigation because she's misinterpreting what he is trying to tell her, and then we have these transformations.
So, Lecter is reshaping Starling's understanding of Buffalo Bill and his capabilities. That's when she has a breakthrough in her understanding, and now she needs to shift her focus to her true need, which is to be the good cop she's meant to be, even when she faces pushback from other cops for working with Hannibal Lecter. Despite their objections, she insists on pursuing the answers she needs.
In the way the story is told, when we have the ultimate ending, if this was a story about participation, especially with other cops, the twist where Buffalo Bill hears knocking at the door, and we see the police knocking at a door, is significant. The twist is that it's actually Starling at the other end of Buffalo Bill's door. If the true need were participation, we would have seen something different – her bringing the cops with her. However, since her true need is identity, the twist works well because she's alone, fulfilling her needs.
Looking at a revelation or confrontation, such as the climax scene where she has developed the skills through participation and understanding, and is now ready to confront and prove herself, we see that resolution at the end where she truly becomes a competent FBI agent.
So that's how I would use these scenes or how I would expect to see a story flow, using those three needs for Hannibal Lecter or for "Silence of the Lambs."
[00:22:40] Matty: Well, it is interesting, as you were talking, any conversation about "Silence of the Lambs," I think, brings up the very interesting consideration of Hannibal Lecter as a character and this idea that you can pick someone who's objectively speaking the worst person ever, and yet, the author makes him compelling, even empathetic sometimes. Is there a different spin that you take if you're assessing the villain against the human needs? How would you apply the needs to Hannibal Lecter? We could make funny subsistence comments right off the bat.
[00:23:17] JP: Yeah, so this is something I haven't explored in this first book, but it's a conversation that's started to come up. There's this negative aspect to these needs or how they may function in this sense. One thing I really like about storytelling is how villains inside characters form as shadows and reflections of your main character. In the sense that Starling has a need for understanding and identity, and participation, Hannibal Lecter has corrupted versions of those. He wants to understand Starling, less about himself, but more, he has this weird desire to pick people apart.
It's both physically and mentally, like one of his strong desires is just to know how other people function. You can see it's this sort of understanding of other people's identities. It's less about him and more about other people. I don't have a full answer, but I think it falls within the lines of these corruptions of the needs or these other versions of them.
An example I can think of that isn't exactly for "Silence of the Lambs," but whenever looking at things like Rising Up Stories, Hunger Games, where we have participation as a form of good, participation can also be a form of bad. If you're looking at participation as participating in a community where you have a voice in that community, what's a negative aspect of that? Being a dictator, leading a cult, all of these things where you might be fulfilling your own need, but you're absorbing the need of others because you are this nexus of that need. So I think there's a fun thing to play with in there that I just don't have fully set yet.
[00:25:25] Matty: I'm going to ask one more question about Hannibal and the human needs. So one of them is freedom. On a very obvious level, freedom is a need that he has. It's a goal he achieves. Would you consider that as applied to Hannibal Lecter, that freedom is, in fact, the primary human need, or is it one of those where it's only superficially the human need and there's a more meaty, so to speak, need that he has achieved by the end of the movie.
[00:25:59] JP: I wonder because I see this underlying need for freedom, but at the same time, I feel like everything's kind of a game, you know? So what if he's in prison? He'll get out eventually. It's less of a he's just waiting for the opportune time to really show his mastermind. I think his desire or need is to prove that he is what everyone thinks he is. That almost makes me think that his need is identity. All the time. It's a corrupted form of, "I am the monster that you think I am," sort of thing, and using that identity as a means of manipulation to get what he wants.
[00:26:47] Matty: I do kind of feel as if there's a part of Hannibal that, that is so, does he end up on the beach at the end of the first movie, or is that a later movie?
[00:26:54] JP: I think it's the, I'm pretty sure it's the first movie, but I haven't seen it in a while.
[00:26:59] Matty: So at whatever point he ends up on the beach, spoiler alert, there's a part of me that thinks that he's kind of missing having his visits from Clarice, like the upside of prison for Hannibal Lecter is he's going to get to talk to the most fascinating people. Whereas, on the beach, you know, he can drink his drink, he can look at the water, but what's the fun there?
[00:27:20] JP: Exactly, which leads me to question, is freedom the true need, or is that just the thing that happens because he's fulfilling these other bits?
Looking at "House of the Cerulean Sea," if that works for you, we have something like Linus's need for identity leads him to fulfill affection by developing understanding. So those are taking the three needs of identity, affection, and understanding. We really start off this book with Linus not fulfilling his identity.
He's really unhappy, just doesn't like his job. He's going through the motions or the expectations of everyone. The book starts off with things being very drab, gray, and dark. It's not a very happy place that he's in. His true need in this story is affection. He meets somebody that he's investigating, more or less, but by the end of the book, it's really about this drive to have love, not only from the main head of this orphanage but also the children that are there as well. It's a sense of belonging and love and affection. It's this understanding of his role as a person throughout the story.
[00:28:46] JP: So I like to write out the formula, and then I like to reshape it into something that makes sense to me or something that I actually want to use as a mantra. If I were to be writing "House on the Cerulean Sea" and I had developed a story hypothesis at the beginning of the story, I might say something like, "By embracing our true identity, we begin to understand ourselves more, paving the way for genuine affection and love." So, I can use a mantra like that to really have it somewhere.
When I was writing "Mandrake Manor," I had it on a whiteboard over here, and I would just see it every day. I didn't really stop, pause, and think. It's just something I saw, and then I would just be like, oh yeah, that's why I'm writing this. Because I'm trying to tell a story about affection, more or less. And so if I were writing this one, and I was looking at this, and I was saying, every time that Linus gets closer to his true identity, he understands himself more. And then he can open himself up for affection and love. So as I'm writing the story, I need him to hit these little notes where he's getting closer to himself, understanding who he is, understanding the people around him and not really imposing judgment on them. And then all of those steps along the way will get him closer and closer to affection and love. There's going to be downfalls because that happens. Stories aren't linear. They're jumpy and that happens. But, that's kind of why I use this mantra as a tool to kind of set aside and just think about as I write the story.
[00:30:20] Matty: Got it. So, do you think that writers should go into writing a story with the idea of their formula in mind? Or might writers eventually get to the same endpoint if they start writing, and then they look back at a first draft and they say, oh, I see what's going on here and then they use that formula to, what's the word I want, solidify what they're trying to achieve?
[00:30:45] JP: 100%. So I used Story Hypothesis when I was drafting "Mandrake Manor," but I used Story Hypothesis when I was revising "Nerds." I hadn't used it before, and then I looked at it and I questioned what our hypothesis was, and I just kind of made sure that certain scenes, you know, were a little bit shaped in the hypothesis that I wanted it to be in.
I've had a couple of clients, which is where Story Hypothesis came from. These were conversations where I reviewed their work and provided my interpretation of it. Most of the time, I was hitting those notes that they wanted for their story. For example, if they were trying to embrace their true identity, but in a particular scene, the character was doing something cruel, it led me to question if the scene matched their intended hypothesis. We would then have a conversation to explore if there was a different choice the character could make in that scene for better flow. In revising, especially through conversation, Story Hypothesis proves to be a useful tool. It can be applied whenever, making it effective for various scenarios.
[00:32:54] Matty: Well, I think I'm seeing also why you object to the idea of a hierarchy because I think in a hierarchical structure, all the stories would be going from a lower level to a higher level. They start out starving, but when they're done, they're all self-actualized or whatever. You could shoehorn "The Hunger Games" into that, I think, but it limits you. You can imagine a story where you want to go from participation to protection or something like that. I don't know that the storyline always has to go from more foundational to more actualized or whatever. Is that part of why you don't like the idea of the hierarchical approach?
[00:33:39] JP: Yes, so I was actually doing a scene-by-scene analysis of "The Road" that may never see the light of day. We'll find out, but regardless, "The Road" is an apocalyptic story by Cormac McCarthy where a father and son are traveling down a road to find something better. In this world, starvation is the primary concern. There's no life anywhere, so they have to find canned goods. I was using Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but there were certain scenes where they were starving, yet making decisions that seemed higher up on this hierarchy.
And I had to almost continuously justify to myself, well, of course, they're starving, but we need to move the story forward because he loves his son so much. I'm like, well, emotional love is like four steps higher in the hierarchy, but they're outside in the rain, and they're going to die. But it just begs the question, does that hierarchy work all the time? Especially in Western culture, where the focus is on self-actualization, the hierarchy works well. However, in certain stories, it just doesn't. You don't have to use Max Neef, but I think the intent of using Max Neef and the chapter about my opinions about Maslow is just to think about your structure and maybe break apart from the hierarchy.
[00:35:14] Matty: Well, JP, thank you so much. This has been so interesting. I'm going to have to listen to it a couple of times and let it simmer because I just see all sorts of great ways to apply this to my own writing and reading. I think it's going to be fun to read books and watch movies with this kind of thing in mind. Believe it or not, I've never seen "The Matrix," and it comes up so often on the podcast that this evening, that's my assignment. I'm going to go watch "The Matrix." So I'm not just nodding like I know what I'm talking about. Thank you so much, and I know everybody's going to be interested in finding out more about Story Hypothesis. Please let them know where they can go to find that out.
[00:35:50] JP: Yeah, so I tried to make it as easy as possible, www.storyhypothesis.com. It redirects to my main site, but there is a page about it, so that's probably the easiest way.
[00:36:01] Matty: Great, thank you so much!
[00:36:02] JP: Thank you!
