Episode 063 - Wide for the Win with Mark Leslie Lefebvre
January 26, 2021
"This is one of the best episodes I've heard about being Wide with @MarkLeslie and @TheIndyAuthor. It's great to hear Mark's passion. This is a must listen for #indieauthors." Connor Whiteley @theglobalauthor on Twitter
Mark Leslie Lefebvre talks about going wide for the win—the importance of distributing to and understanding all the retail platforms, not just Amazon. He gets pretty impassioned as he talks about the dangers of a lemming mentality, and he reminds us that there are bookselling professionals behind those other platforms, and that our own professional reputation benefits from us keeping that in mind. And he questions whether an author distributing only to Amazon really deserves to be called an independent author.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre is an author, professional speaker, and bookseller with more than a quarter century of experience in writing, publishing, and bookselling. Mark started writing when he was thirteen years old, was drawn to bookselling and has remained in the industry since 1992, wearing many different hats. Among other things, he was the founder of the Kobo Writing Life author platform and is currently the Director of Business Development for Draft2Digital. He is a prolific author of both fiction and non-fiction, and is the host of the Stark Reflections on Writing and Publishing podcast.
"I would also argue, I am just going to say it, I do not think you can legitimately call yourself an indy author—indy is short for independent—if you are exclusive to Amazon. I would argue that you are a corporate author. I do not think you can proudly boast that you are an indy author if you are exclusive. So there, I said it." —Mark Leslie Lefebvre
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Matty: Hello and welcome to The Indy Author Podcast. Today, my guest is Mark Leslie Lefebvre. Hey Mark, how are you doing?
[00:00:06] Mark: Hey, Matty. It is great to see you again.
[00:00:08] Matty: It is great seeing you too. Mark is my first three-peat guest. He joined me in Episode 14 to talk about our co-authored book, TAKING THE SHORT TACK, CREATING INCOME AND CONNECTING WITH READERS USING SHORT FICTION. And then he came back in Episode 20 to talk about one of his books, WORKING WITH LIBRARIES AND BOOKSTORES. I recommend all my episodes, but that is a very good episode, especially for indy authors. And just to give a little bit of background in case anyone has forgotten about Mark from those earlier episodes.
[00:00:37] Mark Leslie Lefebvre is an author, professional speaker, and bookseller with more than a quarter-century of experience in writing, publishing, and bookselling. Mark started writing when he was 13 years old and was drawn to bookselling, And has remained in the industry since 1992, wearing many different hats.
[00:00:52] Among other things, he was the founder of the Kobo Writing Life author platform and is currently the director of business development for Draft2Digital. He is a prolific author of both fiction and nonfiction. And he is also the host of the Stark Reflections on Writing and Publishing Podcast. So as soon as you have listened to your weekly shot of The Indy Author, I recommend you go right over to Stark Reflections and listen to what Mark has to say.
[00:01:16] I asked Mark to come back to the podcast to talk about Wide for the Win. And we are going to talk about, I will say, wide for the win with lowercase W's first, and then Wide for the Win with uppercase W's in a little bit. And we're going to be focusing on eBooks because I think if we cast our conversation wider than eBooks, we would be here for hours. But of course, if the conversation takes us beyond the eBooks, that is fine. So, Mark, let’s just start at, so everyone has an equal playing field about what do we mean by Wide for the Win? Why is that a motto that you prescribe to?
[0:01:52] Mark: Well, for one, because of alliteration. You got to have alliteration. But the big argument, or the big debate, or the big divisive thing in the indy author community is often being exclusive to Amazon, in the KDP Select program, which a lot of indy authors called KU, just being in KU. Because it gets you into Kindle Unlimited for page reads. Or publishing wide, which means not being exclusive to Amazon for that 90-day tour of duty, every time that auto-renews if you do not uncheck the box. And sometimes you uncheck the box and I swear sometimes some gremlins in the system that go back and check it. Because there were some titles, I was trying desperately to get out of it. And I will explain why I often have stuff in Kindle Unlimited.
But the debate between exclusive to Amazon versus publishing to all the other retailers. Now, I do have to express a caveat that my version of wide goes beyond capital Wide. It goes to all uppercase wide way beyond, as we co-wrote together in short fiction.
[00:02:55] In my mind, wide is far greater than just this world’s biggest river versus other streams of water but there are other lakes, and ponds, and oceans that we do not even know about that are through traditional publishing and other new technologies. So my wide goes way beyond just eBooks but we're going to focus on eBooks.
[00:03:20] So the idea is exclusive eBooks to Amazon or going to the other major retailers. And those major retailers are probably, in terms of the value that they bring authors, in terms of the breadth, Apple is probably number one in international markets, I would say. Kobo would probably be number two, not necessarily known at all in the States. You got Nook, which is often number two in the States, and then Google Play, which has been making some incredible strides, especially in the last nine to 12 months which I had been desperately praying for. ...
[00:00:06] Mark: Hey, Matty. It is great to see you again.
[00:00:08] Matty: It is great seeing you too. Mark is my first three-peat guest. He joined me in Episode 14 to talk about our co-authored book, TAKING THE SHORT TACK, CREATING INCOME AND CONNECTING WITH READERS USING SHORT FICTION. And then he came back in Episode 20 to talk about one of his books, WORKING WITH LIBRARIES AND BOOKSTORES. I recommend all my episodes, but that is a very good episode, especially for indy authors. And just to give a little bit of background in case anyone has forgotten about Mark from those earlier episodes.
[00:00:37] Mark Leslie Lefebvre is an author, professional speaker, and bookseller with more than a quarter-century of experience in writing, publishing, and bookselling. Mark started writing when he was 13 years old and was drawn to bookselling, And has remained in the industry since 1992, wearing many different hats.
[00:00:52] Among other things, he was the founder of the Kobo Writing Life author platform and is currently the director of business development for Draft2Digital. He is a prolific author of both fiction and nonfiction. And he is also the host of the Stark Reflections on Writing and Publishing Podcast. So as soon as you have listened to your weekly shot of The Indy Author, I recommend you go right over to Stark Reflections and listen to what Mark has to say.
[00:01:16] I asked Mark to come back to the podcast to talk about Wide for the Win. And we are going to talk about, I will say, wide for the win with lowercase W's first, and then Wide for the Win with uppercase W's in a little bit. And we're going to be focusing on eBooks because I think if we cast our conversation wider than eBooks, we would be here for hours. But of course, if the conversation takes us beyond the eBooks, that is fine. So, Mark, let’s just start at, so everyone has an equal playing field about what do we mean by Wide for the Win? Why is that a motto that you prescribe to?
[0:01:52] Mark: Well, for one, because of alliteration. You got to have alliteration. But the big argument, or the big debate, or the big divisive thing in the indy author community is often being exclusive to Amazon, in the KDP Select program, which a lot of indy authors called KU, just being in KU. Because it gets you into Kindle Unlimited for page reads. Or publishing wide, which means not being exclusive to Amazon for that 90-day tour of duty, every time that auto-renews if you do not uncheck the box. And sometimes you uncheck the box and I swear sometimes some gremlins in the system that go back and check it. Because there were some titles, I was trying desperately to get out of it. And I will explain why I often have stuff in Kindle Unlimited.
But the debate between exclusive to Amazon versus publishing to all the other retailers. Now, I do have to express a caveat that my version of wide goes beyond capital Wide. It goes to all uppercase wide way beyond, as we co-wrote together in short fiction.
[00:02:55] In my mind, wide is far greater than just this world’s biggest river versus other streams of water but there are other lakes, and ponds, and oceans that we do not even know about that are through traditional publishing and other new technologies. So my wide goes way beyond just eBooks but we're going to focus on eBooks.
[00:03:20] So the idea is exclusive eBooks to Amazon or going to the other major retailers. And those major retailers are probably, in terms of the value that they bring authors, in terms of the breadth, Apple is probably number one in international markets, I would say. Kobo would probably be number two, not necessarily known at all in the States. You got Nook, which is often number two in the States, and then Google Play, which has been making some incredible strides, especially in the last nine to 12 months which I had been desperately praying for. ...
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[00:03:49] Matty: Yeah, I just want to mention that in Episode 61, Brian Rathbone, who I know you know, came on to talk about Google Play.
[00:03:54] Mark: That was a great episode and Brian is amazing because I think he is a perfect example, for people who go back if you have not listened to that episode of The Indy Author Podcast, because Brian demonstrates something that I think is critical that a lot of authors neglect is, publishing wide is not just putting your books in the other catalogs. But it is actually paying attention to, attending to, and understanding how they are different, how they are unique, and where their benefits are. And Brian's a great example of somebody who is focused on that and actually made Google a significant player for them.
[00:04:33] It is not, oh, Google is 10% of my annual sales or whatever. He has them as a major percentage. I am trying to remember what were the percentages that he was looking at?
[00:04:42] Matty: I cannot remember if we mentioned percentages of sales in that episode, but we did talk about the fact that a focus on Apple platforms was shortsighted if you are going after an international market because although the iPhone market is strong in the US and the UK, it is not as strong in other parts of the world, which are more Android focused. So Google Play is a mechanism of getting into those other markets.
[00:05:08] Mark: And that being said, Google Play has been absent from the game. Sarah Dickman, who has been in the book industry for a long time, has joined the Google Books team. So many other people who are on the Google Play team, who I have heard at conferences even over the last year are amazing and they are doing an amazing job. So I think this team has taken Google Play to be parallel to the reach that Apple has.
[00:05:31] Because Apple had that dominance. And Kobo did in some ways, but just not as big as Apple and in a lot of places. But what Google, as you said, had the dominance with Android. But now, the platform where they are selling books, they are actually leveraging it in the way that they should have been all along which really makes them a contender.
[00:05:49] I guess for the number two spot when you think about the overall platforms … obviously, Amazon is the world's biggest bookstore so you can't ignore them, but I think that authors spend way too much time with their head up Amazon's backside. And that is a combination of metaphors. One is the brown-noser, like they are kissing their butt. And the other one is the head in the sand.
And honestly, I am infuriated that authors, still to this day, still do not get it. They think they get it, or they partially get it. And it drives me nuts because it is almost like that little bit of knowledge is dangerous. If you know nothing about something, that is one thing. But if a little bit, it is just a little bit too much in order to not be useful. And I actually find it really frustrating that it used to be, “Oh, I just published my books everywhere, and then the retailers will take care of it but now, I am going to go focus on Amazon ads.” And it is not all that different. Most authors are still just going, “Oh, I am going to put my stuff up there. What are they going to do to help sell me?” And that attitude just drives me nuts.
[00:06:53] Matty: This is an interesting perspective because I think that there are two flavors of non-wide. One is somebody making an intentional decision, I am going to go to Amazon, and I am going to go to KU. And then there is the defacto non-wide that you are talking about, which is where people just aren't paying any attention to any platform other than Amazon.
[00:07:17] So let's talk for a moment about the intentional decision to go to KU. And what are arguments, when you are talking to authors, especially if they are putting up their first book? What are you hearing people say if they think they are going to KU, and then what do you think about those?
[00:07:35] Mark: And this is a tough one too because when you are first starting out, it is hard to learn everything. So, why not pick the world's biggest bookstore and publish your books there? Makes sense because if you only have time to learn one, learn the biggest, because it is probably the best bang for your buck.
[00:07:52] What bothers me about that, on the flip side, is you’re still beginning to learn the language of Amazon and not the language of anything else. And you are going to always be biased towards that. And I know it makes economic sense to do that even if you are not exclusive just to start with Amazon, figure it out and then move wide.
[00:08:14] But again, that is such a prejudiced view because they may not be the biggest player in every global market, especially if we start thinking beyond North America and maybe the UK. The other thing that I think because I consult one-on-one with plenty of authors. And there are authors where it may make sense, at least temporarily, for the short-term game. An endgame is exactly what it is because, with Amazon, you are always gaming the system. It is more gaming than it is actually worrying about the right customers getting your book. Although with ads, you are hopefully trying to find the right customers to get your book but there's so much gaming going on.
[00:08:54] And I think that's one of the challenges but if you only have one book, chances are, you are not going to make a lot of money in Kindle Unlimited page reads, which is where the big money is when you are exclusive to Amazon. It is the authors with rapid release and a 10-book series and all of that. Because if you have a 300-page book, the average digital page count for a full-length novel, your book is going to have to get read thousands and thousands of times in order to actually make money.
[00:09:24] So it is often the people with those series that kind of expands that sort of prejudice for it. I am going to start with Amazon and I am going to rapid release for the first 3 years or the first 2 years of the ten 15 book release. And then when I am not making money on Amazon anymore then I am going to go wide.
[00:09:41] That’s an afterthought. I get really angry about this, but I think I get angry about it because it demonstrates a lemming sort of mentality, which really bothers me because I know indy authors are supposed to be independently minded. They are supposed to be independently spirited. They are supposed to actually be in control, not following everyone else off the cliff that 30-day Amazon cliff that everyone still talks so much about.
So that is one of the challenges that I constantly butt up against, even in a society where people are thinking that they are wide. It frustrates me also to no end that the retailer with the dominant position is actually forcing authors, backing them into a corner to actually have to make that decision, which may be good for Amazon's customers, but it is not good for customers and readers in general, everywhere.
It is not good for people who have to frequent libraries. It is not good for authors. Especially, because that program also conditions authors that your book is not really worth anything because they take that monthly fee that they pay to have access to Kindle Unlimited. And they absorb it, in terms of I am just going to binge read which I think ultimately devalues an author and their books which is frustrating because we all want to make a living. Well, we do not all want to make a living, but I am going to assume that a lot of writers out there would rather spend more of their time writing and storytelling than they would having to work a more traditional nine-to-five career.
[00:11:19] Matty: It does also seem that once you've trained readers to expect to be able to get your work just as part of what they are paying for Prime or whatever, then it is not as if you can easily transfer them over to a different mindset—that you are not going to take those readers with you if you then remove yourself from being exclusive to Amazon and continue writing in a series or continue writing other books. Do you see that panning out, what I am describing?
[00:11:48] Mark: Oh, for sure. Let's take a parallel. Let's just think about Netflix in the last five years or so. Netflix is a place where you pay a monthly fee, and it is all you can watch. It is like trying to take somebody who's been trained and only streams on Netflix and suddenly Netflix is, “Oh, this one you got to pay for.” What do you mean I am paying $15 a month to use your service? Why do I have to pay for that movie?
It is the same mentality. So from the customer's perspective when somebody goes out of Kindle Unlimited that customer's upset. And then Amazon is like the author had a choice. No, in some cases the author didn't have a choice. The going wisdom that I always tell authors is when I am in Kindle Unlimited, “Thank you, dear reader. I love you so much. You're the best in the world.”
[00:12:29] I love my readers, but I love all my readers. I do not just love my readers who are privileged to be able to pay a monthly fee to get access to unlimited. I want all my readers to be able to get my books for free. And now that I am published wide, all of my readers can get all of my books through the public library and they do not have to pay for that, or they pay a lot less. I know it comes out of taxes in a lot of cases, but it is a lot less than what you are paying Amazon every month. I am not paying it to a corporation. I am paying it for the good of the reading in public.
[00:13:03] That's a tough thing. I understand authors are backed into a corner but there are ways to make sure that the readers can still, if they want, if they really like your stuff, you are not forcing them to pay, you are just asking them to be open to other opportunities outside of their Kindle.
[00:13:20] Matty: Yup. And no library or bookstore is going to buy from Amazon, so that's important to remember. And at the risk of leading us a little bit away from the sticking to eBooks. I think it is important to just say that the decision you make for your print and the decision you make for your audio is separate than the decision you make for your eBook.
[00:13:41] Mark: Yeah, you can decide one thing. You can be exclusive to Amazon eBooks, but not on print. You can be exclusive to ACX / Audible, owned by Amazon, for audiobook, but not eBook or not print. So they are not dependent upon one another. You can pick and choose that, which is great. I love when authors have choice. I love when they leverage that choice, too.
[00:14:01] Matty: Right. So we had talked a little bit about why you would not recommend people make the intentional decision to go with KU. And then there is another sort of in-between flavor which is I am getting started, I am intimidated by all the different platforms. I am just going to load my work onto KDP for Amazon, maybe not even check the exclusive box, but I am going to get to the other ones later. But it sounds like that's the interest too because you are setting a mindset for yourself of prejudicing yourself toward Amazon. Talk about that a little bit.
[00:14:36] Mark: They are always the most favored retailer. And so you are immediately handing everything over to this one retailer as opposed to being wide. And I understand the challenge. And when you are first learning, it is really difficult but when then if you develop the habit it becomes part of your subconscious. And when it becomes part of your subconscious, you are not aware that you still have that prejudice. It is just normal.
[00:15:01] What's normal? You release a book to Amazon and then if it doesn't do well then it goes over. If it is not good enough, it goes everywhere else. You see what that says? Because if it is doing good and I am making lots of money on Amazon. I do not need those other losers.
[00:15:16] It goes back to the original Riverdale cartoons with Archie and Betty and Veronica. Archie was an ass, a complete ass, because Veronica is Amazon and Archie was at her beck and call left, right, and center. And then when Veronica was like, no, I am off with Reggie because he has a better car than your jalopy and Archie would go whining back to Betty who would always take me like all these other retailers would always take that jackass and treated her like crap. And it is like you are not important, Betty, unless I have no one else.
[00:15:50] And I know I am getting pretty animated and angry about it but that's the reality, maybe because I was that guy in high school. It probably stems back to my own personal issues. I was the loser in high school, who a girl would have this jock boyfriend, who would treat her like crap, she'd come crawling over a shoulder to cry on. “Oh, why can't he be more like you?” I am more like me. How come I am only good enough when he's dumped on you when he's treated you like crap? What I realized, that goes way back to a personal issue.
[00:16:24] Matty: I know we're having a little therapy session here.
[00:16:27] Mark: Yeah. That's why I do not get angry at all about this. But again, Amazon's forcing authors into having to be Archie all the time. And honestly, oh my God, the Yo-yo? I am in and out and in and out. The worst thing an author can do for their career and their readers is that, but actually even more so for their professional reputation. You've got to remember, I worked at a retailer. I work with a distributor that works with all of the retailers, including Amazon. And just my own personal perspective and I know that's only mine that may not be everyone in the industry, but I have to wonder how many of the other people who do not work for Amazon actually wonder about the actual professionalism. If anyone that they want to work with who’s not reliable fickle, in and out like a yo-yo, not even consistent in their approach.
[00:17:16] Who can I rely on? Who can I depend on? Because I'll be honest with you, I have worked when I was both at Kobo and through Draft2Digital on getting authors into promotions either at Kobo or through Kobo or other resellers. And after you do all this work, and you get everything up and running, in the meantime, the author who requested that you get the promotion delists the book without even having the courtesy of saying, “Oh yes, I am exclusive to Kindle. Thanks for getting me the promo. But I do not care about you anymore. Veronica took me back in.”
[00:17:49] Matty: I think that's a really important perspective that not many people have, the privilege of having, as you have having worked at both Kobo and Draft2Digital, that it is not just the anonymous machine where you are pressing buttons. There are people on the other side and that, just as you are saying, those decisions you make about availability and non-availability for books on those platforms really do have repercussions on your future ability to make use of those platforms.
[00:18:15] Mark: Yeah, and then they come back six months later because you know, Amazon did something stupid to them or was goofy or they didn't get the sales that they wanted. And then you are like, do you remember that et tu Brute moment? Here's your knife. Oh, you want your knife back. Oh, okay, so you can stab me again? I am being a little crass when I say that, but I've had that perception of authors who have completely abandoned the greener pastures, the wider pastures for that one single ranch. And I'll be honest with you, I am not going to waste my time trying to help them anymore because I want to help authors who help themselves.
[00:18:52] And again, that's my personal Mark Leslie Lefebvre’s bias. That is not the bias of any of the companies that I have worked for or worked for or do work with. But I have to say, I am being completely honest here. People have feelings. Amazon doesn't have feelings because when you think about Amazon, you do not think about the people. You think about the algorithms and the machines and stuff like that.
[00:19:16] When you think about Apple, when you think about Kobo, when you think about Nook, and more so now with Google, you are thinking about the people, because there are the people that are behind the decisions. There are the people that are out there in the author community and interacting with you and engaging with you. And I am just asking authors to take a moment to remember. Like you said, Matty, there are people there and they have feelings and karma can come and get you in a good way or it can come and get you in a bad way, depending on your yo-yo behavior.
[00:19:47] Matty: So I want to switch now to Wide for the Win with capital W's because I think this conversation about the community aspect of all this is a nice lead in that there is a group, Wide for the, and an upcoming book and so on of people who are I am imagining of the same mindset that you are. So can you talk a little bit of that? Not as radical as you may be, but maybe some more radical.
[00:20:14] Mark: Yeah, this is Erin Wright's brainchild. Erin contacted me. I think it was shortly after reading, KILLING IT ON KOBO, know the alliteration there. And the reason I wrote KILLING IT ON KOBO, was because every bloody book out in the market was about Amazon this, and Amazon that, and Amazon the other thing, and Amazon this and Amazon is Amazon. And it was nothing about any of the other retailers but there were a few, I think Patty Jansen had always taken a wide approach, and so, she had some stuff that was on that, but very few books in the market and nothing specifically on any other retailers that were really valuable that we're bringing something new to the table. So I did that.
[00:20:51] And then Erin reached out and said, “Hey, I want to do something like that but for everyone. And this is what I am looking at calling it. I am going to start a group.” And I was like, “Oh my God, hey, how can I help you? Erin, where have you been all my life? Let's do this.” And so, I was like a little cheerleader off to the side while she was building that up with a staff and then I joined the group on Facebook <Wide for the Win Facebook Group>, the group's now over 5,000 people.
[00:21:11] And one of the things I love about Erin's attitude is really, when you look at the top 10 things that you can do, it is about mindset. And Erin is probably a lot more gracious and a lot more polite at addressing it than I am. In terms of the way that she approaches the mindset, like, do not just give away Kindle readers. They do not need the help, but all the other players do. I am going to give away a Nook. I am going to give away a Kobo. I am going to give away an Apple device. Maybe I can get and give away an Android device to my readers, because it is these little subtle things.
[00:21:46] I do not own a Kindle. I own a Kobo, multiple Kobo’s. Actually, I do not own a Nook. So I have Android and I have iOS devices, but I do not own a Kindle, nor have I ever owned a Kindle. And I am not going to say, never will. I do have a Kindle app on my phone that I've used.
[00:22:04] And so Erin was going to write the book, Wide for the Win. And she started the group as a way to support authors because again the way I said, there are no books on Kobo. She said there's no place where you can go where you're going to make the assumption that everyone in this group is publishing wide. So there is no discussion of should I go wide or should I be exclusive to Amazon. That's moot. You want that discussion? Go have it in 50,000 other author groups. In the Wide for the Win group, you can't have that discussion.
[00:22:35] Ironically, I would argue there are still people having that discussion here. No, go talk about it in the other 50 groups. This place is just for wide strategies. And there's been a lot of amazing things shared in the group because Erin and Susie, and the moderators of the group are doing an amazing job, wrangling the cats and keeping us all together. So many authors are sharing their stories. Like Brian, on how they are doing on Google, or how they've used Nook, or how they've used Apple, or Google Play, or Kobo, or any of those platforms. And sharing openly and in a way that can really be beneficial.
[00:23:11] Erin then was spending so much time helping other authors writing the book and then rewriting the book and rewriting the book every time everything changed. She reached out to me and said, “I do not think I am going to ever finish this book. I have to abandon the project.” And, I was like, “Oh man, that's too bad. I was really looking forward to buying it and reading it,” because she wanted to go back to writing the novels that her readers, you know, had gone a long time without seeing an update.
[00:23:37] I had in the meantime been working on the first book I started to write years ago when I left Kobo, and I wanted to share my 25, 30 years’ experience in the book industry. And it was called, AN INDIE PUBLISHING INSIDER'S SECRETS, and SEVEN P'S OF PUBLISHING SUCCESS was a chapter that kind of grew out of hand. KILLING IT ON KOBO was another chapter that kind of grew out of hand became its own book. AN AUTHOR'S GUIDE TO WORKING WITH BOOKSTORES AND LIBRARIES was another section of the book that just completely became its own book.
[00:24:06] So I was still working on INDIE PUBLISHING INSIDER SECRETS when Erin said this. And then I reached out to her, I think a week later I was thinking about it. And I went, “Hey, Erin. So I've been working on this book already, and since you are not using the title, Wide for the Win, that's the mentality I am approaching. Can I use the title because I am going to rename the book, I've been working on to that because I think it matches. especially with my alliteration? And would you please write the foreword for me? If I have your blessing, if not, I already have a title. I've got everything. We’re good to go.”
[00:24:40] And so I've been working on my version of the book and it has been an interesting experience because I had to abandon tactics and specifically “this works now” because most of “ this works now” are gamification of the systems. You can't avoid that even in the other retailers where it is humans but understanding the humans is going to be universal. The way things work might change but understanding the humans is universal. So with conversations with Erin and with Joanna Penn, I went and started to rewrite the book myself. And I was realizing I was falling into the same trap: “Oh my God, Google changed this. Now I got to change this chapter again.”
[00:25:26] I completely changed my approach and the mindset to me is critical. Now, our good friends J. Thorn and Zach Bohannon, when you think about the THREE STORY METHOD and the way they described it, it is the foundation upon which you build your story and that's the underlying thing.
[00:25:46] And so for me, I am spending a significant amount of time on foundation, on mindset, and on all of these details that help lay the groundwork. So that an author can then apply tactics and strategies from all over the place, particularly the ones that are shared on the Wide for the Win group. And there will be high-level stuff and specific examples from the author community with authors that were gracious enough to share.
[00:26:12] But yeah, I realized I couldn't just write a tactical book on publishing wide. I had to write a mindset book on wide and it has been an interesting journey so far. And I am still, ironically, considering how many months I've been chipping away at this, I am still probably only halfway there.
[00:26:32] Matty: So you are bringing a great unique perspective both because of your professional background, your professions as a bookseller, as an author, as a publisher, but you are using KU in some cases, correct? Can you talk a little bit about how you are making the decision where it makes sense for you from a business point of view to go on the Kindle Unlimited route?
[00:26:55] Mark: Yeah, it sounds like I am a hypocrite when I get to, how dare you, but I was sitting in Kobo’s office when the Kindle Unlimited program was announced, or actually when KDP Select was announced because Kindle Unlimited didn't come along for a while but there was still an exclusivity program where, oh yay, you got five free days. Yay, good for you. Oh, you get Countdown Deals. And then it became page reads on top of that, but I published a book within six hours exclusive, a project I'd been sitting on. I saw this announcement and even though I worked for a competitor, I am an author as well.
[00:27:28] So I knew I needed to put a book in the Kindle Unlimited because I needed to understand how it worked. So one of the things that I did when I was building Kobo Writing Life is I used as many of the platforms as I could. And Nook wouldn't let me because I was Canadian. So back in the day, they wouldn't let you. They do now, but too little too late. And so I’d use all of the various platforms and then took notes on what I liked, what I didn't like, what authors like but they didn't like, and built something. So when KDP Select came out, I published in it and I've always had at least one book in the program.
[00:28:02] And one of the main reasons that I have always had at least one book in the program is the same mentality I tried to raise my son with, which is do not tell me you do not like this vegetable if you've never tried this vegetable or this food. If you try the food and you do not like it, fine, but you can't not try something. And it is the same thing. I am not going to poopoo KDP Select unless I've tried it.
[00:28:31] That being said I've launched books into KDP Select. I have kept books in KDP Select for years, multiple books, never my whole catalog ever, because that kind of goes against my religion but I've always had books. And I've played the game and I've done the gamification and stuff like that. So I can't help authors understand something, especially when I am working one-on-one consultation, and some authors are exclusive. And if that's their plan, if that's their goal, I am going to help them be the best they can at that. I am going to tell them my unbiased opinion, but I am going to still help them to the best of my ability. And because again you never know if it is going to work for you unless you try it.
[00:29:14] And the other thing that I think on the flip side is if you've never tried it, you are always going to wonder, and it is going to be the road less traveled, and then it is going to be that date you never went on. And in your mind, you are going to imagine that this was a prince or princess or whatever, that it is just, oh, it would have been so glorious had I just gone into Kindle Unlimited. So check it out, get in there, understand it from the inside. And then make a decision that's right for you. Understand what you are signing up for.
[00:29:43] I would also argue, I am just going to say it, I do not think you can legitimately call yourself an indy author—indy is short for independent—if you are exclusive to Amazon. I would argue that you are a corporate author. I do not think you can proudly boast that you are an indy author if you are exclusive. So there I said it.
[00:30:06] Matty: Yeah, it is a great point and except for maybe some outlier cases. I do not think anyone is saying, do not go to Amazon, because I think for any author, Amazon is always going to be a significant chunk of their business. Do you concur with that?
[00:30:24] Mark: No, actually I am going to argue with you on this because it is fun if we get into fisticuffs here. Amazon is always going to be a part of your business. Amazon is not always going to be a significant chunk of your business. And that's one of the things that I think is critical. For many authors, Amazon is a significant part of their business and they are terrified because what happens if that goes away?
[00:30:45] But I honestly think that Amazon will always be a part of the business. I honestly think print books will always be a part of the business too. I do not think they are ever going to go away. Its not just dependency on a particular retailer. It is your dependency on a format as well. I think a lot of indy authors are dependent upon Amazon eBook sales, right? Like it is not just the wide in terms of a retailer, but it is the format.
[00:31:11] And I would argue, if Kobo is 90% of your sales or 75% of your sales are Apple or Nook, I would argue that you need to consider being wide because, hey, I was at Kobo the day the lights went out for all indy authors known as either Eroticagate or Kobogate, depending on how much you hated Kobo at the time. But I was there when they turned the switch off on every single independent author title because of a few bad apples that were messing up—the whole water system was polluted. So they had to shut off, had to dry it all up.
[00:31:48] That was the end of 2013. Thanksgiving in Canada, 2013. A day I will never forget not only because it was my 12th wedding anniversary. I was moving into a new house and I spent 16 hours that day putting out fires related to that because WHSmith shut down all of their website, the entire website, because of this polluted system. And again, it was a few bad apples that messed it up for all the good indy authors anywhere. So if a retailer like Kobo, that actually cares and actually invested in putting authors first, if they can shut off authors like that, anyone can.
[00:32:31] Matty: It is like a stock portfolio. You do not want to put all your money in one stock. You do not want to put all your books in one vendor and rely on it too heavily.
[00:32:39] Mark: I know Michael Tamblyn personally. I do not know Jeff Bezos. I know Jeff Bezos is a big book fan, right? They are both brilliant leaders who run these companies. And I know Jeff Bezos loves books, but I know Michael Tamblyn loves books. And I know Michael Tamblyn loves authors. I know this personally, and even then, he had to make the decision to shut things down. So what would a corporation, where books are an afterthought, in terms of the revenue, what would they do? Or anyone else?
[00:33:11] I love Apple and I love Google, but Apple and Google are not bookstores. Apple and Google are brilliant technology companies where they've got these really awesome book nerds who work in the book department. They are amazing people. I love them. I think they are great people. But again, they are part of this larger corporation. So somebody could come along and just decide we're not going to do books anymore as well. That's something that could happen. I am not anti-Amazon. I am anti-exclusivity, and I am anti-all eggs in one basket. And just happens that Amazon tends to have the dominant basket for a lot of authors.
[00:33:49] Matty: So if people are intrigued by what you were saying about remember the human side on the other side of the computer screen, and I am trying to frame this question up, so it doesn't launch us into another entire episode unless you want to go there. But one of the things that I find stands in my way is knowing how to go about marketing on each of these different platforms.
[00:34:12] So for Kobo, I could go to KILLING IT ON KOBO. For Google Play, evidently, Brian Rathbone is the only person who knows what's going on there. But Google Plays a really good example because I would love to make Google Play a much bigger part of my income, but it is very hard to know where to go for that information. Do you have any advice generically, or for specific platforms if that makes sense, about where people can go to take advantage of those other platforms?
[00:34:38] Mark: I am glad you asked. You do not have to go to, KILLING IT ON KOBO. The Kobo Writing Life team has a podcast. They release episodes every week. You get insights by listening to them. They are very available. But the Google team has been interacting. Apple has been doing some stuff through the 20 books to 50K group, through Draft2Digital, through other players. There are different players. Alessandra Torre has been doing the free webinars on… this is Goodreads. But again, thinking wide, thinking outside of just Amazon ads.
[00:35:08] And so, if you are not familiar with Google. Brian Rathbone is a great guy. He understands, he knows what's going on but how much time have you actually spent looking at Google? How much time if you have an Android device, or even you can have the Google app on an iOS device. How much time have you spent playing in the app, as a browser, as a consumer? You probably spend the majority of your time looking at Amazon and looking at your ranking. Do you know if Google has ranking? Do you know if Apple has ranking, or Kobo? I think a lot of authors do not even look or spend time getting to understand it.
[00:35:40] So take the time to go and check out the platforms. See what they’re merchandising. They are merchandising stuff that probably makes sense for them and their customers. That's understanding them. If you can listen to an interview with them on a podcast or their own podcast or whatever. Robin Cutler, when she was at Ingram, she started that Go Publish Yourself. That you are getting to hear from people who work at Ingram. To understand, how does this print world work? I think that's critical. Take the time to apply this same amount or at least a percentage even if you applied 10% of the energy you put into understanding Amazon, you'll probably just do better.
[00:36:25] And pick one platform at a time. You can't do them all, right? It is hard. Pick a retailer, understand it, play with it a little bit. So for example, I've done things were like, I have not done much on Google right now. I am going to, for the next month, I am going to try to focus and understand it a little bit more.
[00:36:43] I am going to read a book on Google. I am going to browse, and I am going to try and find and shop for a book on Google so I understand how do people shop and buy books on Google. I am surprised she hasn't talked to me, but I have a Google Home and I still can't go and buy audiobooks or eBooks through my Google Home. It is not a functionality, but you can on the Alexa. So that's got to come into play relatively soon.
[00:37:09] But again, trying to understand how people shop, how people buy, how people read. And then, if you can pick up on any of those interviews with any of those wonderful people from the various platforms. Apple doesn't do a lot of talks, so they have authors do the talks for them. Authors who've been successful. They have lots of great stories to share about how it works because oftentimes Apple does have a policy of do not reach out to us. We'll reach out to you. How do I get them to reach out to me? Sell hard. How do I sell hard? You’ve got to understand Apple, right? So it seems like a bit of a chicken and egg thing, but it can happen if you focus on it and you actually pay attention beyond the shores of the world's biggest river.
[00:37:50] Matty: Well, Mark, I can't pass up having that as the wrap-up for the conversation because it was such a great close. So thank you again for being a three-peat guest and please let the listeners know where they can go to find out more about you, your books, Wide for the Win, and anything else related to you online?
[00:38:07] Mark: MarkLeslie.ca—you can find everything from there.
[00:38:12] Matty: Great. Thank you, Mark.
[00:03:54] Mark: That was a great episode and Brian is amazing because I think he is a perfect example, for people who go back if you have not listened to that episode of The Indy Author Podcast, because Brian demonstrates something that I think is critical that a lot of authors neglect is, publishing wide is not just putting your books in the other catalogs. But it is actually paying attention to, attending to, and understanding how they are different, how they are unique, and where their benefits are. And Brian's a great example of somebody who is focused on that and actually made Google a significant player for them.
[00:04:33] It is not, oh, Google is 10% of my annual sales or whatever. He has them as a major percentage. I am trying to remember what were the percentages that he was looking at?
[00:04:42] Matty: I cannot remember if we mentioned percentages of sales in that episode, but we did talk about the fact that a focus on Apple platforms was shortsighted if you are going after an international market because although the iPhone market is strong in the US and the UK, it is not as strong in other parts of the world, which are more Android focused. So Google Play is a mechanism of getting into those other markets.
[00:05:08] Mark: And that being said, Google Play has been absent from the game. Sarah Dickman, who has been in the book industry for a long time, has joined the Google Books team. So many other people who are on the Google Play team, who I have heard at conferences even over the last year are amazing and they are doing an amazing job. So I think this team has taken Google Play to be parallel to the reach that Apple has.
[00:05:31] Because Apple had that dominance. And Kobo did in some ways, but just not as big as Apple and in a lot of places. But what Google, as you said, had the dominance with Android. But now, the platform where they are selling books, they are actually leveraging it in the way that they should have been all along which really makes them a contender.
[00:05:49] I guess for the number two spot when you think about the overall platforms … obviously, Amazon is the world's biggest bookstore so you can't ignore them, but I think that authors spend way too much time with their head up Amazon's backside. And that is a combination of metaphors. One is the brown-noser, like they are kissing their butt. And the other one is the head in the sand.
And honestly, I am infuriated that authors, still to this day, still do not get it. They think they get it, or they partially get it. And it drives me nuts because it is almost like that little bit of knowledge is dangerous. If you know nothing about something, that is one thing. But if a little bit, it is just a little bit too much in order to not be useful. And I actually find it really frustrating that it used to be, “Oh, I just published my books everywhere, and then the retailers will take care of it but now, I am going to go focus on Amazon ads.” And it is not all that different. Most authors are still just going, “Oh, I am going to put my stuff up there. What are they going to do to help sell me?” And that attitude just drives me nuts.
[00:06:53] Matty: This is an interesting perspective because I think that there are two flavors of non-wide. One is somebody making an intentional decision, I am going to go to Amazon, and I am going to go to KU. And then there is the defacto non-wide that you are talking about, which is where people just aren't paying any attention to any platform other than Amazon.
[00:07:17] So let's talk for a moment about the intentional decision to go to KU. And what are arguments, when you are talking to authors, especially if they are putting up their first book? What are you hearing people say if they think they are going to KU, and then what do you think about those?
[00:07:35] Mark: And this is a tough one too because when you are first starting out, it is hard to learn everything. So, why not pick the world's biggest bookstore and publish your books there? Makes sense because if you only have time to learn one, learn the biggest, because it is probably the best bang for your buck.
[00:07:52] What bothers me about that, on the flip side, is you’re still beginning to learn the language of Amazon and not the language of anything else. And you are going to always be biased towards that. And I know it makes economic sense to do that even if you are not exclusive just to start with Amazon, figure it out and then move wide.
[00:08:14] But again, that is such a prejudiced view because they may not be the biggest player in every global market, especially if we start thinking beyond North America and maybe the UK. The other thing that I think because I consult one-on-one with plenty of authors. And there are authors where it may make sense, at least temporarily, for the short-term game. An endgame is exactly what it is because, with Amazon, you are always gaming the system. It is more gaming than it is actually worrying about the right customers getting your book. Although with ads, you are hopefully trying to find the right customers to get your book but there's so much gaming going on.
[00:08:54] And I think that's one of the challenges but if you only have one book, chances are, you are not going to make a lot of money in Kindle Unlimited page reads, which is where the big money is when you are exclusive to Amazon. It is the authors with rapid release and a 10-book series and all of that. Because if you have a 300-page book, the average digital page count for a full-length novel, your book is going to have to get read thousands and thousands of times in order to actually make money.
[00:09:24] So it is often the people with those series that kind of expands that sort of prejudice for it. I am going to start with Amazon and I am going to rapid release for the first 3 years or the first 2 years of the ten 15 book release. And then when I am not making money on Amazon anymore then I am going to go wide.
[00:09:41] That’s an afterthought. I get really angry about this, but I think I get angry about it because it demonstrates a lemming sort of mentality, which really bothers me because I know indy authors are supposed to be independently minded. They are supposed to be independently spirited. They are supposed to actually be in control, not following everyone else off the cliff that 30-day Amazon cliff that everyone still talks so much about.
So that is one of the challenges that I constantly butt up against, even in a society where people are thinking that they are wide. It frustrates me also to no end that the retailer with the dominant position is actually forcing authors, backing them into a corner to actually have to make that decision, which may be good for Amazon's customers, but it is not good for customers and readers in general, everywhere.
It is not good for people who have to frequent libraries. It is not good for authors. Especially, because that program also conditions authors that your book is not really worth anything because they take that monthly fee that they pay to have access to Kindle Unlimited. And they absorb it, in terms of I am just going to binge read which I think ultimately devalues an author and their books which is frustrating because we all want to make a living. Well, we do not all want to make a living, but I am going to assume that a lot of writers out there would rather spend more of their time writing and storytelling than they would having to work a more traditional nine-to-five career.
[00:11:19] Matty: It does also seem that once you've trained readers to expect to be able to get your work just as part of what they are paying for Prime or whatever, then it is not as if you can easily transfer them over to a different mindset—that you are not going to take those readers with you if you then remove yourself from being exclusive to Amazon and continue writing in a series or continue writing other books. Do you see that panning out, what I am describing?
[00:11:48] Mark: Oh, for sure. Let's take a parallel. Let's just think about Netflix in the last five years or so. Netflix is a place where you pay a monthly fee, and it is all you can watch. It is like trying to take somebody who's been trained and only streams on Netflix and suddenly Netflix is, “Oh, this one you got to pay for.” What do you mean I am paying $15 a month to use your service? Why do I have to pay for that movie?
It is the same mentality. So from the customer's perspective when somebody goes out of Kindle Unlimited that customer's upset. And then Amazon is like the author had a choice. No, in some cases the author didn't have a choice. The going wisdom that I always tell authors is when I am in Kindle Unlimited, “Thank you, dear reader. I love you so much. You're the best in the world.”
[00:12:29] I love my readers, but I love all my readers. I do not just love my readers who are privileged to be able to pay a monthly fee to get access to unlimited. I want all my readers to be able to get my books for free. And now that I am published wide, all of my readers can get all of my books through the public library and they do not have to pay for that, or they pay a lot less. I know it comes out of taxes in a lot of cases, but it is a lot less than what you are paying Amazon every month. I am not paying it to a corporation. I am paying it for the good of the reading in public.
[00:13:03] That's a tough thing. I understand authors are backed into a corner but there are ways to make sure that the readers can still, if they want, if they really like your stuff, you are not forcing them to pay, you are just asking them to be open to other opportunities outside of their Kindle.
[00:13:20] Matty: Yup. And no library or bookstore is going to buy from Amazon, so that's important to remember. And at the risk of leading us a little bit away from the sticking to eBooks. I think it is important to just say that the decision you make for your print and the decision you make for your audio is separate than the decision you make for your eBook.
[00:13:41] Mark: Yeah, you can decide one thing. You can be exclusive to Amazon eBooks, but not on print. You can be exclusive to ACX / Audible, owned by Amazon, for audiobook, but not eBook or not print. So they are not dependent upon one another. You can pick and choose that, which is great. I love when authors have choice. I love when they leverage that choice, too.
[00:14:01] Matty: Right. So we had talked a little bit about why you would not recommend people make the intentional decision to go with KU. And then there is another sort of in-between flavor which is I am getting started, I am intimidated by all the different platforms. I am just going to load my work onto KDP for Amazon, maybe not even check the exclusive box, but I am going to get to the other ones later. But it sounds like that's the interest too because you are setting a mindset for yourself of prejudicing yourself toward Amazon. Talk about that a little bit.
[00:14:36] Mark: They are always the most favored retailer. And so you are immediately handing everything over to this one retailer as opposed to being wide. And I understand the challenge. And when you are first learning, it is really difficult but when then if you develop the habit it becomes part of your subconscious. And when it becomes part of your subconscious, you are not aware that you still have that prejudice. It is just normal.
[00:15:01] What's normal? You release a book to Amazon and then if it doesn't do well then it goes over. If it is not good enough, it goes everywhere else. You see what that says? Because if it is doing good and I am making lots of money on Amazon. I do not need those other losers.
[00:15:16] It goes back to the original Riverdale cartoons with Archie and Betty and Veronica. Archie was an ass, a complete ass, because Veronica is Amazon and Archie was at her beck and call left, right, and center. And then when Veronica was like, no, I am off with Reggie because he has a better car than your jalopy and Archie would go whining back to Betty who would always take me like all these other retailers would always take that jackass and treated her like crap. And it is like you are not important, Betty, unless I have no one else.
[00:15:50] And I know I am getting pretty animated and angry about it but that's the reality, maybe because I was that guy in high school. It probably stems back to my own personal issues. I was the loser in high school, who a girl would have this jock boyfriend, who would treat her like crap, she'd come crawling over a shoulder to cry on. “Oh, why can't he be more like you?” I am more like me. How come I am only good enough when he's dumped on you when he's treated you like crap? What I realized, that goes way back to a personal issue.
[00:16:24] Matty: I know we're having a little therapy session here.
[00:16:27] Mark: Yeah. That's why I do not get angry at all about this. But again, Amazon's forcing authors into having to be Archie all the time. And honestly, oh my God, the Yo-yo? I am in and out and in and out. The worst thing an author can do for their career and their readers is that, but actually even more so for their professional reputation. You've got to remember, I worked at a retailer. I work with a distributor that works with all of the retailers, including Amazon. And just my own personal perspective and I know that's only mine that may not be everyone in the industry, but I have to wonder how many of the other people who do not work for Amazon actually wonder about the actual professionalism. If anyone that they want to work with who’s not reliable fickle, in and out like a yo-yo, not even consistent in their approach.
[00:17:16] Who can I rely on? Who can I depend on? Because I'll be honest with you, I have worked when I was both at Kobo and through Draft2Digital on getting authors into promotions either at Kobo or through Kobo or other resellers. And after you do all this work, and you get everything up and running, in the meantime, the author who requested that you get the promotion delists the book without even having the courtesy of saying, “Oh yes, I am exclusive to Kindle. Thanks for getting me the promo. But I do not care about you anymore. Veronica took me back in.”
[00:17:49] Matty: I think that's a really important perspective that not many people have, the privilege of having, as you have having worked at both Kobo and Draft2Digital, that it is not just the anonymous machine where you are pressing buttons. There are people on the other side and that, just as you are saying, those decisions you make about availability and non-availability for books on those platforms really do have repercussions on your future ability to make use of those platforms.
[00:18:15] Mark: Yeah, and then they come back six months later because you know, Amazon did something stupid to them or was goofy or they didn't get the sales that they wanted. And then you are like, do you remember that et tu Brute moment? Here's your knife. Oh, you want your knife back. Oh, okay, so you can stab me again? I am being a little crass when I say that, but I've had that perception of authors who have completely abandoned the greener pastures, the wider pastures for that one single ranch. And I'll be honest with you, I am not going to waste my time trying to help them anymore because I want to help authors who help themselves.
[00:18:52] And again, that's my personal Mark Leslie Lefebvre’s bias. That is not the bias of any of the companies that I have worked for or worked for or do work with. But I have to say, I am being completely honest here. People have feelings. Amazon doesn't have feelings because when you think about Amazon, you do not think about the people. You think about the algorithms and the machines and stuff like that.
[00:19:16] When you think about Apple, when you think about Kobo, when you think about Nook, and more so now with Google, you are thinking about the people, because there are the people that are behind the decisions. There are the people that are out there in the author community and interacting with you and engaging with you. And I am just asking authors to take a moment to remember. Like you said, Matty, there are people there and they have feelings and karma can come and get you in a good way or it can come and get you in a bad way, depending on your yo-yo behavior.
[00:19:47] Matty: So I want to switch now to Wide for the Win with capital W's because I think this conversation about the community aspect of all this is a nice lead in that there is a group, Wide for the, and an upcoming book and so on of people who are I am imagining of the same mindset that you are. So can you talk a little bit of that? Not as radical as you may be, but maybe some more radical.
[00:20:14] Mark: Yeah, this is Erin Wright's brainchild. Erin contacted me. I think it was shortly after reading, KILLING IT ON KOBO, know the alliteration there. And the reason I wrote KILLING IT ON KOBO, was because every bloody book out in the market was about Amazon this, and Amazon that, and Amazon the other thing, and Amazon this and Amazon is Amazon. And it was nothing about any of the other retailers but there were a few, I think Patty Jansen had always taken a wide approach, and so, she had some stuff that was on that, but very few books in the market and nothing specifically on any other retailers that were really valuable that we're bringing something new to the table. So I did that.
[00:20:51] And then Erin reached out and said, “Hey, I want to do something like that but for everyone. And this is what I am looking at calling it. I am going to start a group.” And I was like, “Oh my God, hey, how can I help you? Erin, where have you been all my life? Let's do this.” And so, I was like a little cheerleader off to the side while she was building that up with a staff and then I joined the group on Facebook <Wide for the Win Facebook Group>, the group's now over 5,000 people.
[00:21:11] And one of the things I love about Erin's attitude is really, when you look at the top 10 things that you can do, it is about mindset. And Erin is probably a lot more gracious and a lot more polite at addressing it than I am. In terms of the way that she approaches the mindset, like, do not just give away Kindle readers. They do not need the help, but all the other players do. I am going to give away a Nook. I am going to give away a Kobo. I am going to give away an Apple device. Maybe I can get and give away an Android device to my readers, because it is these little subtle things.
[00:21:46] I do not own a Kindle. I own a Kobo, multiple Kobo’s. Actually, I do not own a Nook. So I have Android and I have iOS devices, but I do not own a Kindle, nor have I ever owned a Kindle. And I am not going to say, never will. I do have a Kindle app on my phone that I've used.
[00:22:04] And so Erin was going to write the book, Wide for the Win. And she started the group as a way to support authors because again the way I said, there are no books on Kobo. She said there's no place where you can go where you're going to make the assumption that everyone in this group is publishing wide. So there is no discussion of should I go wide or should I be exclusive to Amazon. That's moot. You want that discussion? Go have it in 50,000 other author groups. In the Wide for the Win group, you can't have that discussion.
[00:22:35] Ironically, I would argue there are still people having that discussion here. No, go talk about it in the other 50 groups. This place is just for wide strategies. And there's been a lot of amazing things shared in the group because Erin and Susie, and the moderators of the group are doing an amazing job, wrangling the cats and keeping us all together. So many authors are sharing their stories. Like Brian, on how they are doing on Google, or how they've used Nook, or how they've used Apple, or Google Play, or Kobo, or any of those platforms. And sharing openly and in a way that can really be beneficial.
[00:23:11] Erin then was spending so much time helping other authors writing the book and then rewriting the book and rewriting the book every time everything changed. She reached out to me and said, “I do not think I am going to ever finish this book. I have to abandon the project.” And, I was like, “Oh man, that's too bad. I was really looking forward to buying it and reading it,” because she wanted to go back to writing the novels that her readers, you know, had gone a long time without seeing an update.
[00:23:37] I had in the meantime been working on the first book I started to write years ago when I left Kobo, and I wanted to share my 25, 30 years’ experience in the book industry. And it was called, AN INDIE PUBLISHING INSIDER'S SECRETS, and SEVEN P'S OF PUBLISHING SUCCESS was a chapter that kind of grew out of hand. KILLING IT ON KOBO was another chapter that kind of grew out of hand became its own book. AN AUTHOR'S GUIDE TO WORKING WITH BOOKSTORES AND LIBRARIES was another section of the book that just completely became its own book.
[00:24:06] So I was still working on INDIE PUBLISHING INSIDER SECRETS when Erin said this. And then I reached out to her, I think a week later I was thinking about it. And I went, “Hey, Erin. So I've been working on this book already, and since you are not using the title, Wide for the Win, that's the mentality I am approaching. Can I use the title because I am going to rename the book, I've been working on to that because I think it matches. especially with my alliteration? And would you please write the foreword for me? If I have your blessing, if not, I already have a title. I've got everything. We’re good to go.”
[00:24:40] And so I've been working on my version of the book and it has been an interesting experience because I had to abandon tactics and specifically “this works now” because most of “ this works now” are gamification of the systems. You can't avoid that even in the other retailers where it is humans but understanding the humans is going to be universal. The way things work might change but understanding the humans is universal. So with conversations with Erin and with Joanna Penn, I went and started to rewrite the book myself. And I was realizing I was falling into the same trap: “Oh my God, Google changed this. Now I got to change this chapter again.”
[00:25:26] I completely changed my approach and the mindset to me is critical. Now, our good friends J. Thorn and Zach Bohannon, when you think about the THREE STORY METHOD and the way they described it, it is the foundation upon which you build your story and that's the underlying thing.
[00:25:46] And so for me, I am spending a significant amount of time on foundation, on mindset, and on all of these details that help lay the groundwork. So that an author can then apply tactics and strategies from all over the place, particularly the ones that are shared on the Wide for the Win group. And there will be high-level stuff and specific examples from the author community with authors that were gracious enough to share.
[00:26:12] But yeah, I realized I couldn't just write a tactical book on publishing wide. I had to write a mindset book on wide and it has been an interesting journey so far. And I am still, ironically, considering how many months I've been chipping away at this, I am still probably only halfway there.
[00:26:32] Matty: So you are bringing a great unique perspective both because of your professional background, your professions as a bookseller, as an author, as a publisher, but you are using KU in some cases, correct? Can you talk a little bit about how you are making the decision where it makes sense for you from a business point of view to go on the Kindle Unlimited route?
[00:26:55] Mark: Yeah, it sounds like I am a hypocrite when I get to, how dare you, but I was sitting in Kobo’s office when the Kindle Unlimited program was announced, or actually when KDP Select was announced because Kindle Unlimited didn't come along for a while but there was still an exclusivity program where, oh yay, you got five free days. Yay, good for you. Oh, you get Countdown Deals. And then it became page reads on top of that, but I published a book within six hours exclusive, a project I'd been sitting on. I saw this announcement and even though I worked for a competitor, I am an author as well.
[00:27:28] So I knew I needed to put a book in the Kindle Unlimited because I needed to understand how it worked. So one of the things that I did when I was building Kobo Writing Life is I used as many of the platforms as I could. And Nook wouldn't let me because I was Canadian. So back in the day, they wouldn't let you. They do now, but too little too late. And so I’d use all of the various platforms and then took notes on what I liked, what I didn't like, what authors like but they didn't like, and built something. So when KDP Select came out, I published in it and I've always had at least one book in the program.
[00:28:02] And one of the main reasons that I have always had at least one book in the program is the same mentality I tried to raise my son with, which is do not tell me you do not like this vegetable if you've never tried this vegetable or this food. If you try the food and you do not like it, fine, but you can't not try something. And it is the same thing. I am not going to poopoo KDP Select unless I've tried it.
[00:28:31] That being said I've launched books into KDP Select. I have kept books in KDP Select for years, multiple books, never my whole catalog ever, because that kind of goes against my religion but I've always had books. And I've played the game and I've done the gamification and stuff like that. So I can't help authors understand something, especially when I am working one-on-one consultation, and some authors are exclusive. And if that's their plan, if that's their goal, I am going to help them be the best they can at that. I am going to tell them my unbiased opinion, but I am going to still help them to the best of my ability. And because again you never know if it is going to work for you unless you try it.
[00:29:14] And the other thing that I think on the flip side is if you've never tried it, you are always going to wonder, and it is going to be the road less traveled, and then it is going to be that date you never went on. And in your mind, you are going to imagine that this was a prince or princess or whatever, that it is just, oh, it would have been so glorious had I just gone into Kindle Unlimited. So check it out, get in there, understand it from the inside. And then make a decision that's right for you. Understand what you are signing up for.
[00:29:43] I would also argue, I am just going to say it, I do not think you can legitimately call yourself an indy author—indy is short for independent—if you are exclusive to Amazon. I would argue that you are a corporate author. I do not think you can proudly boast that you are an indy author if you are exclusive. So there I said it.
[00:30:06] Matty: Yeah, it is a great point and except for maybe some outlier cases. I do not think anyone is saying, do not go to Amazon, because I think for any author, Amazon is always going to be a significant chunk of their business. Do you concur with that?
[00:30:24] Mark: No, actually I am going to argue with you on this because it is fun if we get into fisticuffs here. Amazon is always going to be a part of your business. Amazon is not always going to be a significant chunk of your business. And that's one of the things that I think is critical. For many authors, Amazon is a significant part of their business and they are terrified because what happens if that goes away?
[00:30:45] But I honestly think that Amazon will always be a part of the business. I honestly think print books will always be a part of the business too. I do not think they are ever going to go away. Its not just dependency on a particular retailer. It is your dependency on a format as well. I think a lot of indy authors are dependent upon Amazon eBook sales, right? Like it is not just the wide in terms of a retailer, but it is the format.
[00:31:11] And I would argue, if Kobo is 90% of your sales or 75% of your sales are Apple or Nook, I would argue that you need to consider being wide because, hey, I was at Kobo the day the lights went out for all indy authors known as either Eroticagate or Kobogate, depending on how much you hated Kobo at the time. But I was there when they turned the switch off on every single independent author title because of a few bad apples that were messing up—the whole water system was polluted. So they had to shut off, had to dry it all up.
[00:31:48] That was the end of 2013. Thanksgiving in Canada, 2013. A day I will never forget not only because it was my 12th wedding anniversary. I was moving into a new house and I spent 16 hours that day putting out fires related to that because WHSmith shut down all of their website, the entire website, because of this polluted system. And again, it was a few bad apples that messed it up for all the good indy authors anywhere. So if a retailer like Kobo, that actually cares and actually invested in putting authors first, if they can shut off authors like that, anyone can.
[00:32:31] Matty: It is like a stock portfolio. You do not want to put all your money in one stock. You do not want to put all your books in one vendor and rely on it too heavily.
[00:32:39] Mark: I know Michael Tamblyn personally. I do not know Jeff Bezos. I know Jeff Bezos is a big book fan, right? They are both brilliant leaders who run these companies. And I know Jeff Bezos loves books, but I know Michael Tamblyn loves books. And I know Michael Tamblyn loves authors. I know this personally, and even then, he had to make the decision to shut things down. So what would a corporation, where books are an afterthought, in terms of the revenue, what would they do? Or anyone else?
[00:33:11] I love Apple and I love Google, but Apple and Google are not bookstores. Apple and Google are brilliant technology companies where they've got these really awesome book nerds who work in the book department. They are amazing people. I love them. I think they are great people. But again, they are part of this larger corporation. So somebody could come along and just decide we're not going to do books anymore as well. That's something that could happen. I am not anti-Amazon. I am anti-exclusivity, and I am anti-all eggs in one basket. And just happens that Amazon tends to have the dominant basket for a lot of authors.
[00:33:49] Matty: So if people are intrigued by what you were saying about remember the human side on the other side of the computer screen, and I am trying to frame this question up, so it doesn't launch us into another entire episode unless you want to go there. But one of the things that I find stands in my way is knowing how to go about marketing on each of these different platforms.
[00:34:12] So for Kobo, I could go to KILLING IT ON KOBO. For Google Play, evidently, Brian Rathbone is the only person who knows what's going on there. But Google Plays a really good example because I would love to make Google Play a much bigger part of my income, but it is very hard to know where to go for that information. Do you have any advice generically, or for specific platforms if that makes sense, about where people can go to take advantage of those other platforms?
[00:34:38] Mark: I am glad you asked. You do not have to go to, KILLING IT ON KOBO. The Kobo Writing Life team has a podcast. They release episodes every week. You get insights by listening to them. They are very available. But the Google team has been interacting. Apple has been doing some stuff through the 20 books to 50K group, through Draft2Digital, through other players. There are different players. Alessandra Torre has been doing the free webinars on… this is Goodreads. But again, thinking wide, thinking outside of just Amazon ads.
[00:35:08] And so, if you are not familiar with Google. Brian Rathbone is a great guy. He understands, he knows what's going on but how much time have you actually spent looking at Google? How much time if you have an Android device, or even you can have the Google app on an iOS device. How much time have you spent playing in the app, as a browser, as a consumer? You probably spend the majority of your time looking at Amazon and looking at your ranking. Do you know if Google has ranking? Do you know if Apple has ranking, or Kobo? I think a lot of authors do not even look or spend time getting to understand it.
[00:35:40] So take the time to go and check out the platforms. See what they’re merchandising. They are merchandising stuff that probably makes sense for them and their customers. That's understanding them. If you can listen to an interview with them on a podcast or their own podcast or whatever. Robin Cutler, when she was at Ingram, she started that Go Publish Yourself. That you are getting to hear from people who work at Ingram. To understand, how does this print world work? I think that's critical. Take the time to apply this same amount or at least a percentage even if you applied 10% of the energy you put into understanding Amazon, you'll probably just do better.
[00:36:25] And pick one platform at a time. You can't do them all, right? It is hard. Pick a retailer, understand it, play with it a little bit. So for example, I've done things were like, I have not done much on Google right now. I am going to, for the next month, I am going to try to focus and understand it a little bit more.
[00:36:43] I am going to read a book on Google. I am going to browse, and I am going to try and find and shop for a book on Google so I understand how do people shop and buy books on Google. I am surprised she hasn't talked to me, but I have a Google Home and I still can't go and buy audiobooks or eBooks through my Google Home. It is not a functionality, but you can on the Alexa. So that's got to come into play relatively soon.
[00:37:09] But again, trying to understand how people shop, how people buy, how people read. And then, if you can pick up on any of those interviews with any of those wonderful people from the various platforms. Apple doesn't do a lot of talks, so they have authors do the talks for them. Authors who've been successful. They have lots of great stories to share about how it works because oftentimes Apple does have a policy of do not reach out to us. We'll reach out to you. How do I get them to reach out to me? Sell hard. How do I sell hard? You’ve got to understand Apple, right? So it seems like a bit of a chicken and egg thing, but it can happen if you focus on it and you actually pay attention beyond the shores of the world's biggest river.
[00:37:50] Matty: Well, Mark, I can't pass up having that as the wrap-up for the conversation because it was such a great close. So thank you again for being a three-peat guest and please let the listeners know where they can go to find out more about you, your books, Wide for the Win, and anything else related to you online?
[00:38:07] Mark: MarkLeslie.ca—you can find everything from there.
[00:38:12] Matty: Great. Thank you, Mark.
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