Episode 067 - Mistakes Writers Make about the FBI and How to Avoid Them with Jerri Williams
February 23, 2021
Former FBI agent Jerri Williams talks about MISTAKES WRITERS MAKE ABOUT THE FBI AND HOW TO AVOID THEM. We discuss common myths and misconceptions about the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, including the portrayal of jurisdictional issues and roles and responsibilities. Jerri shares tips for the best way to approach subject matter experts for information to inform your own work. And we discuss how you can stay true to the facts while still making the story interesting.
Jerri Williams served for 26 years as a special agent in the FBI, working major economic fraud investigations. She uses her prior professional experiences with scams and schemers to write crime fiction about greed. Her novels PAY TO PLAY and GREEDY GIVERS – both inspired by actual FBI cases – feature a female FBI agent assigned to a Public Corruption and Fraud Squad in Philadelphia. She is the producer and host of the true crime podcast FBI RETIRED CASE FILES REVIEW, where she interviews retired FBI agents about their high-profile cases and careers. She is also the author of FBI MYTHS AND MISCONCEPTIONS: A MANUAL FOR ARMCHAIR DETECTIVE.
"The FBI does not have a high hierarchical rating above any police department, and those police departments are not subordinate to the FBI." —Jerri Williams
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Matty: Hello and welcome to The Indy Author Podcast, today my guest is Jerri Williams. Hey, Jerri, how are you doing?
[00:00:06] Jerri: Hi. Thanks for having me back.
[00:00:08] Matty: I am pleased to have you back. Just to give our listeners a little bit of background on you, Jerri Williams served for 26 years as a special agent in the FBI, working major economic fraud investigations. She uses her prior professional experience with scams and schemers to write crime fiction about greed. Her novels PAY TO PLAY and GREEDY GIVERS, both inspired by actual FBI cases, feature a female FBI agent assigned to a public corruption and fraud squad in Philadelphia. And she's also the producer and host of the true crime podcast FBI RETIRED CASE FILES REVIEW, where she interviews retired FBI agents about their high-profile cases and careers. And we actually talked about that a little bit in Episode 51, where Jerri joined me to talk about podcasting as content marketing. So I'll include a link to that episode in the show notes.
[00:00:57] And she is also the author of the non-fiction book, FBI MYTHS AND MISCONCEPTIONS. And that is going to be our topic today. Jerri, when you were on the podcast the first time, I think a lot of people were surprised that this wasn't the topic then because this is what you're most known for among the writer community is talking about FBI myths and misconceptions. So we're going to be hitting that today.
[00:01:18] The first thing I wanted to ask, because there's quite a bit of FBI activity in books and movies and TV these days, I wanted to ask what is your favorite depiction of the FBI in books, movies, or TV these days?
[00:01:32] Jerri: Well, I think it would be really surprising for some people to hear that I love MINDHUNTER. I really thought they did an excellent job. I'm not usually into the serial killer genre because it's so different than what the reality is of how FBI profilers investigate or consult on serial killer investigations.
[00:01:56] So I'm not usually into those because it's hard to watch and not be taken out of the story when you know how it really works. But MINDHUNTER really did a great job, and I have to boast and say that I just got the opportunity to interview John Douglas, who is the legendary FBI criminal profiler, and we had a wonderful conversation. But I always loved MINDHUNTER, even if he hadn't come on the show a couple of weeks ago. I still really enjoyed that show. ...
[00:00:06] Jerri: Hi. Thanks for having me back.
[00:00:08] Matty: I am pleased to have you back. Just to give our listeners a little bit of background on you, Jerri Williams served for 26 years as a special agent in the FBI, working major economic fraud investigations. She uses her prior professional experience with scams and schemers to write crime fiction about greed. Her novels PAY TO PLAY and GREEDY GIVERS, both inspired by actual FBI cases, feature a female FBI agent assigned to a public corruption and fraud squad in Philadelphia. And she's also the producer and host of the true crime podcast FBI RETIRED CASE FILES REVIEW, where she interviews retired FBI agents about their high-profile cases and careers. And we actually talked about that a little bit in Episode 51, where Jerri joined me to talk about podcasting as content marketing. So I'll include a link to that episode in the show notes.
[00:00:57] And she is also the author of the non-fiction book, FBI MYTHS AND MISCONCEPTIONS. And that is going to be our topic today. Jerri, when you were on the podcast the first time, I think a lot of people were surprised that this wasn't the topic then because this is what you're most known for among the writer community is talking about FBI myths and misconceptions. So we're going to be hitting that today.
[00:01:18] The first thing I wanted to ask, because there's quite a bit of FBI activity in books and movies and TV these days, I wanted to ask what is your favorite depiction of the FBI in books, movies, or TV these days?
[00:01:32] Jerri: Well, I think it would be really surprising for some people to hear that I love MINDHUNTER. I really thought they did an excellent job. I'm not usually into the serial killer genre because it's so different than what the reality is of how FBI profilers investigate or consult on serial killer investigations.
[00:01:56] So I'm not usually into those because it's hard to watch and not be taken out of the story when you know how it really works. But MINDHUNTER really did a great job, and I have to boast and say that I just got the opportunity to interview John Douglas, who is the legendary FBI criminal profiler, and we had a wonderful conversation. But I always loved MINDHUNTER, even if he hadn't come on the show a couple of weeks ago. I still really enjoyed that show. ...
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[00:02:26] There was another one called THE LOOMING TOWER and I think it was on Hulu and it was a series that was so well done. They had some exaggerations about firefights and gunfights in the street, which really didn't happen. But otherwise the relationships between the agents and management and the CIA were really excellently portrayed.
[00:02:48] And then one more is a movie and a book called THE INFORMANT. Now the book was by a New York Times bestselling author and journalist Kirk Eichenwald and it became a movie called THE INFORMANT that had Matt Damon in it. The movie was just really strange, but again, both the book and the movie I think really portrayed the way investigations are done. So those are some of my favorites.
[00:03:16] For all three of those, I was able to get the case agents who investigated those cases on the podcast and had an opportunity to talk to them about filming and what it was like to have their cases portrayed into a movie or TV show or a book.
[00:03:35] Matty: That would be extra interesting because I think that even at the end of our conversation, we're not going to be able to hit all the ways that people get it right and get it wrong for the FBI. But it will be interesting to watch those TV and movies and then listen to the interviews and find out a little more backstory about how those came to be on the screen.
[00:03:56] Jerri: Yeah. And I guess one of the things as we start talking about the subject that I should say is that whenever you're looking at a TV show or a movie or even a fictionalized version of a real FBI investigation or law enforcement investigation -- you know, we want to keep it more general -- you've got to always remember if they're have the words "based on a true story," then there are going to be so many creative compromises and changes and embellishments that are made. So you should never watch a TV show, a movie, or read a fictionalized version of any type of investigation and think that you've got the true historical story. Because you won't.
[00:04:43] Matty: That's another topic that I want to weave into our conversation, and you're a great guest because you both have the FBI experience but you're a fiction author as well. And so for all these things, there's this balance between what would you put to make it completely realistic and what will you do to make it completely engaging for the reader? And sometimes those are a little bit contradictory.
[00:05:09] There are two things I wanted to make sure we bake into our conversation. One is that idea of how do you hit that balance between complete realism and complete excitement. And also how do these topics that we're going to be talking about apply beyond the FBI, because I think everybody's going to enjoy hearing about the FBI, but there's only going to be a small percentage of listeners who are actually writing about the FBI, but many of them are going to be writing about other law enforcement agencies, local police departments, or the CIA or sheriffs or state troopers or whatever. And so whenever there's an opportunity to generalize beyond the FBI to other law enforcement agencies, we want to make sure we seize the opportunity to do that.
[00:05:49] And I think that one thing that really is often a trope in the stories about the FBI or any law enforcement agency are jurisdictional competition or people feeling like, Oh you're moving into my territory, I don't want you here. And a lot of headbanging and one-upmanship. So based on your experience with the FBI, how much of that is true? How much of it is not true?
[00:06:13] Jerri: I think the majority of it is not true. There are clear lines of jurisdiction between federal law enforcement and local law enforcement. And the FBI does not have a hierarchical rating above any police department, and those police departments are not subordinate to the FBI. And I think that's one thing that we need to really get clear -- that if there was a crime scene and the police are handling it, the FBI can't just walk in and flash their badges and walk into the crime scene. That conversation about whose jurisdiction this is and who's going to handle it will be made at a higher level. And when that decision's made, then you'll see the FBI coming in and see the FBI taking over the case.
[00:07:07] An example would be in Las Vegas where they had the mass shooting, and they were at the country western. Both agencies really worked on that closely together because it was not an FBI jurisdiction unless they could determine that there was some type of connection to terrorism -- domestic terrorism, international terrorism. Just because there's a mass shooting does not necessarily make it an FBI jurisdiction.
[00:07:41] But the two agencies, and in any case of a mass shooting, we'll work together, so that they're all at the same level, they have the same knowledge of what's going on, they're following the same guidelines and rules for search warrants and arrest warrants, and they're going out on interviews together. So at some point where it is decided, okay, this is going to be a state matter and we're going to investigate it statewide, the FBI agents who participated will still testify. There needs to be testimony at the court level. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to go federal and that the FBI agents will be in charge of the case.
[00:08:22] And so those are things that are made at a higher level, chief of police and special agent in charge deciding on how these things are going to be handled. And then everybody works on them together. And a lot of times I see TV shows and books where it is a local murder and you see the FBI walking in, and that really throws me out of the storyline because I'm yelling at the TV set -- where's the jurisdiction? Why is the FBI there? Because in those types of situations, there's got to be a federal jurisdiction. There's got to be something that brings it to the level of the FBI.
[00:09:00] And so I think those situations where you see in TV shows and movies and in books, of course, because we're authors, where there's this fight, this tension, is usually not true. Maybe between individual officers or detectives and agents. But usually that has already been figured out at a much higher level.
[00:09:26] Matty: It made me think of another question I had, which is sort of jurisdictional, but not involving other law enforcement agencies. As pre-work for this conversation, I watched an episode of the TV show FBI, and the episode was called "Clean Slate." I think it was the most recent episode available to stream. And it was about this couple whose little girl has been kidnapped and the FBI comes in and they're offering to negotiate. And so the parents say, no, thank you, we don't want your help. And I was like, really? Is that realistic? Could parents in that circumstance just say, no, we don't want any law enforcement involvement. We're going to handle this ourselves.
[00:10:05] Jerri: They could do that on their own and just not share with us the information that they're getting. And then if that's the case, we need their cooperation. So would the FBI just stop investigating and trying to find this little girl? No, they would not. But the parents do not have to cooperate. And so that part of it reality was true. And as you saw on the TV show, the FBI didn't just walk away. They did continue. And they did keep suggesting to the parents that it's not going to turn out well without law enforcement assistance.
[00:10:40] So it's a yes and a no. The parents do not have to cooperate. They do not have to provide any information. They don't have to tell them about any contact between them and the kidnappers. But that doesn't mean that the FBI wouldn't continue trying to assist in this matter.
[00:10:57] And I think that's one of the jurisdictional issues again where you say, Hey, wait a minute. Because even if the FBI was participating, because even though it's a local kidnapping, there's no proof that this child has been taken across state line, the FBI has now jurisdiction that makes that assumption so that they can get into a case early and not have to come in at the very end or at a point weeks later when it was determined that the child was taken across state line and there's true jurisdiction. We can get into the case early.
[00:11:33] But where were the police? This is still a local police matter. And so in that situation, even if the FBI was participating, which most local departments would want us to because of our resources and our ability to get things done, they would want our assistance to check on leads. Maybe the suspects are from out of town. We don't even have to dispatch agents. We can just ask our agents all around the country to assist in this investigation.
[00:12:04] And so in most cases, local law enforcement is absolutely interested in us assisting in these types of investigations. But it would always still be the local police participating at least at the same level with the FBI and these matters.
[00:12:23] One of the things that I think really when I'm watching this show, the FBI really does work very well with our local police departments, but there are some police departments like New York and LA and Chicago and Washington metropolitan police departments that are huge. And if they do need the assistance of the FBI, we're right there. But they would not allow -- not allow, that's not even the right word -- but that there would be no reason for something to happen in New York City that you're not going to have New York City police department respond to.
[00:13:04] And so I really wish they would use that more in the storyline. That would help make it easier to watch without pointing something out all the time and because every FBI office has a task force of local, state, and other federal agencies on a variety of violations that they work. And so a kidnapping would be worked off of the violent crime squad, or reactive squad is as we used to call it, and on that squad would be sitting every day coming to work police officers, police detectives from that particular city. They would be part of the FBI's task force. Every office has this.
[00:13:54] And so what gives us the ability to move quickly and to get things done is because we've already partnered up with these different law enforcement agencies. And so there would always be somebody from the police department or from the state police working on these cases with us. We know them, we work with them on a daily basis.
[00:14:15] And so that's something I really wish they would bring more into the show. It's a good show. There's lots of young boys and girls and young adults that have been introduced to the FBI, who want to become FBI agents because of that show, and I recognize that. And so they're just little tweaks in there that would be quite helpful and making it a little bit more realistic and not taking away any of the entertainment value. And so I really like the show.
[00:14:46] People think I don't like the show FBI on CBS. I do like it. I think it is a wonderful avenue for people to get an idea of what the FBI does. It's a wonderful PR campaign for us, for the FBI to show what we do. But there are a number of things in there that are cliches and misconceptions, and this would be one of them. The local police would be absolutely actively involved in this investigation with the FBI. And in most cases that the case will be tried in state court, not federal.
[00:15:28] Matty: One thing that I thought was interesting that felt real to me, and please comment on it, is that the head guy, Jubal, is in the headquarter somewhere. When an assignment comes in, he's not the one running out, he's just always on his earphones, calling people and telling them what to do. That felt realistic to me. Is that true?
[00:15:47] Jerri: Yes and no. Usually an ASAC or a special agent in charge, because you had the special agent in charge, is not that actively involved in the investigation. They want to know what's going on. They definitely want to keep abreast of the progress and the investigation, but it really is usually the case agent and the supervisor that are coordinating boots on the ground, the street level investigation. Usually your management level is not that active.
[00:16:20] And that's because they're running the whole office. The FBI is involved in so many violations of federal law and we've got organized crime, we've got drugs, we've got crimes against children, and we've got white collar crime. We've got corruption. There's so many things going on in the office. A special agent in charge or an assistant special agent in charge, who is Jubal, just is not going to be able to spend all of their time working and assisting and giving directions and instructions to case agents on investigations.
[00:16:53] Case agents, and this is true I believe also for our local police and the detectives, and the special agents working cases really have a lot of autonomy. They're the ones really making those day-to-day decisions. They're the ones figuring out who they need to speak to, or if there's a search that needs to be done. It really is at that level, at the case agent, special agent, case agent level, and at the detective level.
[00:17:23] Of course you're going to let your supervisors and upper management know what's going on, but you're really the one that has the pulse of what's going on in your case and what needs to be done and really is not a situation where someone is telling you what to do like that. But Jubal has to have a role at the show, and it's a wonderful role, but no, that is not how it would go.
[00:17:46] Matty: I do think that sometimes TV and movies and books miss an opportunity to introduce something that initially might seem problematic, like let's not have the entire two dozen people in the New York office all working on the same thing. Let's have it be a smaller group and that's going to be interesting in a different way. I'm sorry I'm beating up on the "Clean Slate" episode of FBI but it's the most immediate example I have at the moment, is that there was a part where the little girl's being held somewhere and they find a picture that shows some of the background of the room and they say Oh, fortunately we have a database of pictures of all the hotels in the area and we'll just run the picture that we've gotten of the little girl against this database and seven seconds later, they know what hotel she's in and in fact what room she's in. And even if that's realistic, that could have been so much more suspenseful because it kind of felt lazy. If all you have to do is push a button and you know where she is ...
[00:18:52] Jerri: Yeah. It is true. There is a database, and also in situations where you have a picture where you can see the background clearly, we can actually send those out to hotels and resorts around the world to see if anybody recognizes it. So that is definitely something that we do. But again, it's leg work and, it's hard pounding leg work and leads being sent out and contacts being made. And of course no TV show, and I do recognize this, I actually had somebody email me saying that she thought that we beat up on TV shows and movies too much on my podcast. Come on, they only have 45, 42 minutes to do everything because of commercials.
[00:19:38] And I don't want it to seem like that at all. I recognize -- and this is something that we probably should have said at the beginning -- the most important thing for a writer, for an author, is the story. So we've got people writing fantasy. We've got people writing science fiction. It's okay if you're writing a crime novel if you want to use your imagination. And that's what you think you need to do to get your story out, to write your story.
[00:20:10] I'm just saying to you that somebody who is knowledgeable about how law enforcement works isn't going to read your story, isn't going to enjoy your story. But it's okay if you want to write whatever you want to write. But just know that if it's somebody who's knowledgeable, they're going to catch it and it's going to take them right out of your scene and they're going to just start thinking, did this person do any homework? But it's okay if you want to write whatever you want to write.
[00:20:39] Matty: And it's interesting to think that even something that could be true can take a person out of the story. So for example, in the case of the episode we're talking about, they had all this information about the hotel rooms in a database, so all the computer guy had to do was scan the other picture they had and pretty soon the answer popped up. Even if that were true, it took me out of the story because I spent a little bit of time going, really? And so it's an interesting balance to say if you're introducing something that is true, that is going to take people out of the story, there's probably a special way to set that up so that you're acknowledging that, yes, this might be hard to believe, but this is actually how it works.
[00:21:22] Another example I can think of from that episode is they're pursuing somebody through the woods using, I think a drone and heat sensing technology, and I was okay with that. Again, I don't know if that's true or not, but I was like, okay, I can buy that.
[00:21:35] When you're writing your own fiction, how do you weigh that? What's real. What's not real. And how much it's going to take people out of the story, regardless.
[00:21:44] Jerri: I guess the best answer is beta readers. You know, you think it's good, but if you have somebody read it and they question it, even if it's true, like you said, and they question it, then you have to decide is having this in here that important. If it is going to take people out, if all of a sudden, they're going to read it and they're going to say, Oh, is that true? Does that really happen? And then start Googling it in the middle of reading your story, then you may not want to put it in there if you don't have enough time to explain.
[00:22:15] Maybe a simple line in the show that you're talking about would have been, normally this could take us weeks in order to get a hit back on identifying a room. But you know, we're lucky, this particular hotel room is right here and has been used before in a case. And so it's right there and the database ... you know, just a quick line that makes it seem more plausible. I think what we're both saying is even the new stuff, the real stuff, because they have so much technical stuff on that show that for me, even if it's true, it doesn't happen that fast.
[00:22:52] The facial recognition. So sometimes they can look at a person and do the facial recognition and then come back and tell us, Oh, he's adopted and his parents died and he went to this group home and he ended up in trouble and he ended up in this jail cell. And it was like, what? You got all of that from facial recognition? And I know they need to move the story along and they don't have a lot of time, but sometimes it takes you out of the story to have all of that happen.
[00:23:25] Can I add one thing, though about the show since we're picking on poor FBI, they do a great job of character development.
[00:23:34] Matty: I was going to say that. I agree. Yeah. That was my impression too. Talk about that.
[00:23:38] Jerri: Yeah. So I do think that they show the relationships between all of the players, all the characters, especially the people that are partnering up. We don't necessarily have partners in the FBI, which is another thing that I noted. Everybody has a case. There might be people that they enjoy going out with. But if you need somebody to go with you on an interview or surveillance, usually you just look around the room and pick somebody, a particular person, so you hang out with them, but it's not because you've been put together as a formal partnership.
[00:24:12] It's just you like the same conversations or same topics. And so you hang out together often. But, yeah, but the relationships between them, the concern, the jealousies, and all of that, that's real. And I really enjoy that part of the show and that's why I continue to watch it.
[00:24:31] And I don't necessarily watch it on Tuesdays because I'm watching THIS IS US, but I do watch the show and catch up with it, again because I think it really highlights the FBI, showcases the FBI very, very well. And I appreciate that. I really do appreciate that. Some shows about the FBI are not so kind.
[00:24:52] Matty: Yeah. I can imagine somebody finishing a season of FBI, if they're thinking about what they want their career to be and thinking that might be something that they want to do themselves.
[00:25:02] In terms of the timeline, I think it's interesting that there are shows, and I think that LAW AND ORDER, which I think is from the same guy who is doing FBI, I think Dick Wolf did both of them. It's an interesting comparison because in LAW AND ORDER, there's no sense that the time of the show is the time of the elapsed events. That isn't entirely true for FBI either, but it was more a sense of you're seeing it in real time. Whereas LAW AND ORDER, it's clear that the order part takes place and then time goes by, and then the law part takes place -- you know, the police part and the courtroom part. And so you accommodate that fact that, yes, it could be days, weeks, months, who knows, between those two events, but there's no implication that it's happening immediately.
[00:25:53] And I think that could be an interesting lesson for people who are writing to say maybe you don't have to artificially condense the timeline if you acknowledge to the reader, the time has gone by, but similarly, you don't have to describe that. "In week four, they filed the seventh brief," it's okay to skip over the boring parts, but acknowledge that that kind of work is going on in between.
[00:26:16] Jerri: Yes, absolutely. And of course the issue with that particular TV show is that they try to do everything. And sometimes it feels like it's a day, you know? There's no acknowledgement that somebody went home and went to sleep and came back and this kidnapping investigation has occurred over a week period of time.
[00:26:38] That is something that of course I notice. I'm not sure if the less educated or sophisticated law enforcement viewer notices, but it certainly is something that would be helpful -- that she's been gone now for three days. What are you doing about it? Or something like that that helps us see that this is not something that was done in 24 hours.
[00:27:02] Matty: I wanted to move to a more general question, and that is for people who are writing fiction, or I suppose nonfiction that involves law enforcement, whether that's FBI or otherwise, let's start with the FBI. How do you recommend people approach subject matter experts when they're looking for someone who can help them with these kinds of facts? Or what other resources are out there that they should be taking advantage of?
[00:27:28] Jerri: Of course, I'm going to plug my episodes because one of the reasons that I started the podcast was to educate other writers about how an FBI investigation was really handled. My purpose statement is I'm on a mission to show you who the FBI is and what the FBI does. And so of course I would say, listen to the agent and listen to them talk about how this particular case, and I have 223 episodes and on my website at the bottom there's a dropdown menu in the footer, so if you just want to look at organized crime investigations or you just want to look at serial murder investigations or crimes against children, you can just go to that drop down menu. It will tell you all those episodes under that particular category.
[00:28:19] And I say, listen to them, so you can hear from case agents who've worked these cases how it goes. You might even get some really good story ideas. But in addition to that, see if you know any FBI agents. Maybe they go to your church or maybe somebody that you went to college with, their parent was an FBI agent. So try to find a connection.
[00:28:42] I would love to be able to answer emails from everyone. But I'm so busy right now. If I do get an email, I do my very best to give a quick answer and send them my advice or maybe tell them an episode that they should listen to. But I think the most important thing is to understand that if you're getting all your information about what it's like to work in law enforcement, to be an FBI agent or police detective, from TV or movies are other books, that you're probably not getting the most accurate information.
[00:29:24] And there are two individuals that I know very well that have podcasts and websites that concentrate on getting the policing right. You got the WRITER'S DETECTIVE, and then you have COPS AND WRITERS. Those are two things you can look up. And those individuals are very, very helpful and they have mechanisms in place against their Facebook groups or podcast and things like that, and books, that will also provide you information.
[00:29:58] And so I think those are good outlets when it comes to the FBI. I really do think, and I'm not just saying this, I don't make any money off my podcast, I really think that's a good way for you to really get a good understanding of how a particular type of investigation is handled.
[00:30:15] Every now and then if you have a question, you can send me an email, I'll get back to you as soon as I can. It might be a week or so, but I would suggest that if you can find an FBI agent or a retired agent that you can talk to, that would be great too.
[00:30:30] One of the things that for me that I think when people reach out to me isn't fair and they haven't read my book, then it really bothers me when they ask questions about the FBI or ask me to utilize my time to talk about the FBI. And I think that would be the same case for the other individuals that I've mentioned who have spent their time to create resources and materials, that you do at least take the time to read those before reaching out and asking for additional information.
[00:31:11] Matty: That's a great point. And another episode that I will link to that also gives useful information about asking for subject matter expertise is Chris Grall talked about Mistakes Writers Make about Firearms and How to Avoid Them. And his piece of advice was give the subject matter expert the context. So you don't go through this painful series of emails saying what kind of gun would this person use? How about this? Okay. But could they use that underwater? Once you've gotten the permission to ask the question, then frame it up in a beefy way.
[00:31:50] Jerri: And please don't ask one of us to read your book. Just tell us exactly what you're trying to get across, and then we'll help you with that. But you know, most of us have too many people contacting us to be able to actually read your book or read your chapter. We'll do our very best to answer a specific question that you have.
[00:32:15] Matty: I really liked the idea of using social media and, for example, going to LinkedIn and maybe plugging in FBI and then whatever your alma mater is to find those common connections that you might not even realize are out there. I also found the fourth Ann Kinnear book, which I'm just getting ready to send to the editor now, I had a couple of circumstances. One, I needed someone who had fire investigation experience, and I went to Facebook and I typed in "writer fire investigation" and there was a page that was devoted solely to experienced firefighters who were willing to answer questions from writers about fire investigations and firefighting and fire suppression and all things fire.
[00:32:58] And then the other thing that I thought was very interesting is the other sort of law enforcement aspect I had to research for Ann Kinnear 4 was jurisdictional division between the local police department and the National Park Service, if there was some overlap in what they were investigating. And so I went to the website of the police department that would be in charge of the area where this crime takes place, and I could find the police chief's email. I sent him off an email saying, I'm hoping I can talk to somebody about this. Within an hour, he had gotten back to me and it was a question about dispatching officers to respond to a 911 call, he had put me in touch with one of his dispatchers. We exchanged this really nice email thread. And then I tried to get in touch with somebody at the National Park Service. Crickets.
[00:33:45] So I think what I'm going to do is go to LinkedIn, put in my alma mater and put a National Park Service and see who I can find.
[00:33:52] Jerri: Yeah. It's connection.
[00:33:54] Matty: Yeah. Because they're connections that you probably have that you don't even know that would help you get those kinds of facts right.
[00:34:00] Jerri: Yeah. And I do think that police officers and detectives and FBI agents are more than willing to help. We really want to make sure if we can that you get it right. And one of the reasons that I say that is expectations of the public. So it's not just that I want you to have a great story, but the public is reading your story. They're watching these TV shows and televisions. And so they have a perception of law enforcement that may not necessarily be true.
[00:34:34] And they're not happy. They see on TV where a police officer barges into someone's home and starts berating them, and so that's how they feel, they get that feel, that tension, and that outrage. How dare you just walk into somebody's house and use coercion to get your information.
[00:34:54] And of course the reality is that doesn't occur. Oh, it could occur. It could occur, but that evidence is not going to be able to be used. It is a violation. You don't have a search warrant, you don't have an arrest warrant, you don't have consent. You cannot use threats in order to obtain information from somebody.
[00:35:16] But if that's what you see all the time, then that's what you truly believe is the way that it's done. And so it's also an issue of getting it right because it means something. It really matters when somebody interacts with a police officer, a police detective, an FBI agent, and they think that what they saw on TV is how it happens. Then they're going to be less apt to cooperate, to feel that they're being protected, to feel that this is being done in the right way. And I think that's why it's so important, if you can, be able to try to get your stories as authentic as you can, but still make sure that they're entertaining and interesting.
[00:36:02] Matty: Great. Well, Jerri, thank you so much. This has been so interesting. Please let the listeners know where they can find out more about you, your books, your podcast, and all things Jerri Williams online.
[00:36:13] Jerri: Yes, the best place is my website, JerriWilliams.com, and there you'll be able to see my books. You'll will be able to see my podcast episodes. And we didn't really talk about this a lot, but also my blogs. I do a lot of blogs on different TV shows and movies, where I do a review of what they get wrong and what they get right. I actually blogged every single episode of the first season of FBI.
[00:36:43] In addition to the book and the podcast, I'm very excited that I've gone Hollywood, that I am now an actual consultant on two TV shows that are going to be coming on TV, hopefully later this year in the fall or in 2022. And so I'm doing my part on future shows that are going to be shown to the public and trying to get the FBI right. But again, I'm just a consultant, and so they're going to make those decisions as to how they're going to portray the FBI.
[00:37:18] Matty: And can you share what their shows are?
[00:37:21] Jerri: No, unfortunately. But I'm under contract with one. That's going to be on the FX Network, which is Disney, so I have a contract with Disney. The other one's going to be on HBO Max. So I have a contract with Warner Brothers and Bad Robot for that one. But as far as what they're about, I can't say anything.
[00:37:43] Matty: When you're at the point where you can share that information, let me know, and I will add that to the notes for the podcast so followers and future listeners will be able to find out what those are.
[00:37:53] Jerri: Absolutely. I can't wait because they're fantastic shows. I'm very excited about them.
[00:37:57] Matty: Very cool.
[00:37:58] Jerri: Yes. Yes. Maybe we can find another reason for me to come on because I certainly enjoy talking to you and I certainly enjoy listening to your podcast every week. Thank you so much.
[00:02:48] And then one more is a movie and a book called THE INFORMANT. Now the book was by a New York Times bestselling author and journalist Kirk Eichenwald and it became a movie called THE INFORMANT that had Matt Damon in it. The movie was just really strange, but again, both the book and the movie I think really portrayed the way investigations are done. So those are some of my favorites.
[00:03:16] For all three of those, I was able to get the case agents who investigated those cases on the podcast and had an opportunity to talk to them about filming and what it was like to have their cases portrayed into a movie or TV show or a book.
[00:03:35] Matty: That would be extra interesting because I think that even at the end of our conversation, we're not going to be able to hit all the ways that people get it right and get it wrong for the FBI. But it will be interesting to watch those TV and movies and then listen to the interviews and find out a little more backstory about how those came to be on the screen.
[00:03:56] Jerri: Yeah. And I guess one of the things as we start talking about the subject that I should say is that whenever you're looking at a TV show or a movie or even a fictionalized version of a real FBI investigation or law enforcement investigation -- you know, we want to keep it more general -- you've got to always remember if they're have the words "based on a true story," then there are going to be so many creative compromises and changes and embellishments that are made. So you should never watch a TV show, a movie, or read a fictionalized version of any type of investigation and think that you've got the true historical story. Because you won't.
[00:04:43] Matty: That's another topic that I want to weave into our conversation, and you're a great guest because you both have the FBI experience but you're a fiction author as well. And so for all these things, there's this balance between what would you put to make it completely realistic and what will you do to make it completely engaging for the reader? And sometimes those are a little bit contradictory.
[00:05:09] There are two things I wanted to make sure we bake into our conversation. One is that idea of how do you hit that balance between complete realism and complete excitement. And also how do these topics that we're going to be talking about apply beyond the FBI, because I think everybody's going to enjoy hearing about the FBI, but there's only going to be a small percentage of listeners who are actually writing about the FBI, but many of them are going to be writing about other law enforcement agencies, local police departments, or the CIA or sheriffs or state troopers or whatever. And so whenever there's an opportunity to generalize beyond the FBI to other law enforcement agencies, we want to make sure we seize the opportunity to do that.
[00:05:49] And I think that one thing that really is often a trope in the stories about the FBI or any law enforcement agency are jurisdictional competition or people feeling like, Oh you're moving into my territory, I don't want you here. And a lot of headbanging and one-upmanship. So based on your experience with the FBI, how much of that is true? How much of it is not true?
[00:06:13] Jerri: I think the majority of it is not true. There are clear lines of jurisdiction between federal law enforcement and local law enforcement. And the FBI does not have a hierarchical rating above any police department, and those police departments are not subordinate to the FBI. And I think that's one thing that we need to really get clear -- that if there was a crime scene and the police are handling it, the FBI can't just walk in and flash their badges and walk into the crime scene. That conversation about whose jurisdiction this is and who's going to handle it will be made at a higher level. And when that decision's made, then you'll see the FBI coming in and see the FBI taking over the case.
[00:07:07] An example would be in Las Vegas where they had the mass shooting, and they were at the country western. Both agencies really worked on that closely together because it was not an FBI jurisdiction unless they could determine that there was some type of connection to terrorism -- domestic terrorism, international terrorism. Just because there's a mass shooting does not necessarily make it an FBI jurisdiction.
[00:07:41] But the two agencies, and in any case of a mass shooting, we'll work together, so that they're all at the same level, they have the same knowledge of what's going on, they're following the same guidelines and rules for search warrants and arrest warrants, and they're going out on interviews together. So at some point where it is decided, okay, this is going to be a state matter and we're going to investigate it statewide, the FBI agents who participated will still testify. There needs to be testimony at the court level. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to go federal and that the FBI agents will be in charge of the case.
[00:08:22] And so those are things that are made at a higher level, chief of police and special agent in charge deciding on how these things are going to be handled. And then everybody works on them together. And a lot of times I see TV shows and books where it is a local murder and you see the FBI walking in, and that really throws me out of the storyline because I'm yelling at the TV set -- where's the jurisdiction? Why is the FBI there? Because in those types of situations, there's got to be a federal jurisdiction. There's got to be something that brings it to the level of the FBI.
[00:09:00] And so I think those situations where you see in TV shows and movies and in books, of course, because we're authors, where there's this fight, this tension, is usually not true. Maybe between individual officers or detectives and agents. But usually that has already been figured out at a much higher level.
[00:09:26] Matty: It made me think of another question I had, which is sort of jurisdictional, but not involving other law enforcement agencies. As pre-work for this conversation, I watched an episode of the TV show FBI, and the episode was called "Clean Slate." I think it was the most recent episode available to stream. And it was about this couple whose little girl has been kidnapped and the FBI comes in and they're offering to negotiate. And so the parents say, no, thank you, we don't want your help. And I was like, really? Is that realistic? Could parents in that circumstance just say, no, we don't want any law enforcement involvement. We're going to handle this ourselves.
[00:10:05] Jerri: They could do that on their own and just not share with us the information that they're getting. And then if that's the case, we need their cooperation. So would the FBI just stop investigating and trying to find this little girl? No, they would not. But the parents do not have to cooperate. And so that part of it reality was true. And as you saw on the TV show, the FBI didn't just walk away. They did continue. And they did keep suggesting to the parents that it's not going to turn out well without law enforcement assistance.
[00:10:40] So it's a yes and a no. The parents do not have to cooperate. They do not have to provide any information. They don't have to tell them about any contact between them and the kidnappers. But that doesn't mean that the FBI wouldn't continue trying to assist in this matter.
[00:10:57] And I think that's one of the jurisdictional issues again where you say, Hey, wait a minute. Because even if the FBI was participating, because even though it's a local kidnapping, there's no proof that this child has been taken across state line, the FBI has now jurisdiction that makes that assumption so that they can get into a case early and not have to come in at the very end or at a point weeks later when it was determined that the child was taken across state line and there's true jurisdiction. We can get into the case early.
[00:11:33] But where were the police? This is still a local police matter. And so in that situation, even if the FBI was participating, which most local departments would want us to because of our resources and our ability to get things done, they would want our assistance to check on leads. Maybe the suspects are from out of town. We don't even have to dispatch agents. We can just ask our agents all around the country to assist in this investigation.
[00:12:04] And so in most cases, local law enforcement is absolutely interested in us assisting in these types of investigations. But it would always still be the local police participating at least at the same level with the FBI and these matters.
[00:12:23] One of the things that I think really when I'm watching this show, the FBI really does work very well with our local police departments, but there are some police departments like New York and LA and Chicago and Washington metropolitan police departments that are huge. And if they do need the assistance of the FBI, we're right there. But they would not allow -- not allow, that's not even the right word -- but that there would be no reason for something to happen in New York City that you're not going to have New York City police department respond to.
[00:13:04] And so I really wish they would use that more in the storyline. That would help make it easier to watch without pointing something out all the time and because every FBI office has a task force of local, state, and other federal agencies on a variety of violations that they work. And so a kidnapping would be worked off of the violent crime squad, or reactive squad is as we used to call it, and on that squad would be sitting every day coming to work police officers, police detectives from that particular city. They would be part of the FBI's task force. Every office has this.
[00:13:54] And so what gives us the ability to move quickly and to get things done is because we've already partnered up with these different law enforcement agencies. And so there would always be somebody from the police department or from the state police working on these cases with us. We know them, we work with them on a daily basis.
[00:14:15] And so that's something I really wish they would bring more into the show. It's a good show. There's lots of young boys and girls and young adults that have been introduced to the FBI, who want to become FBI agents because of that show, and I recognize that. And so they're just little tweaks in there that would be quite helpful and making it a little bit more realistic and not taking away any of the entertainment value. And so I really like the show.
[00:14:46] People think I don't like the show FBI on CBS. I do like it. I think it is a wonderful avenue for people to get an idea of what the FBI does. It's a wonderful PR campaign for us, for the FBI to show what we do. But there are a number of things in there that are cliches and misconceptions, and this would be one of them. The local police would be absolutely actively involved in this investigation with the FBI. And in most cases that the case will be tried in state court, not federal.
[00:15:28] Matty: One thing that I thought was interesting that felt real to me, and please comment on it, is that the head guy, Jubal, is in the headquarter somewhere. When an assignment comes in, he's not the one running out, he's just always on his earphones, calling people and telling them what to do. That felt realistic to me. Is that true?
[00:15:47] Jerri: Yes and no. Usually an ASAC or a special agent in charge, because you had the special agent in charge, is not that actively involved in the investigation. They want to know what's going on. They definitely want to keep abreast of the progress and the investigation, but it really is usually the case agent and the supervisor that are coordinating boots on the ground, the street level investigation. Usually your management level is not that active.
[00:16:20] And that's because they're running the whole office. The FBI is involved in so many violations of federal law and we've got organized crime, we've got drugs, we've got crimes against children, and we've got white collar crime. We've got corruption. There's so many things going on in the office. A special agent in charge or an assistant special agent in charge, who is Jubal, just is not going to be able to spend all of their time working and assisting and giving directions and instructions to case agents on investigations.
[00:16:53] Case agents, and this is true I believe also for our local police and the detectives, and the special agents working cases really have a lot of autonomy. They're the ones really making those day-to-day decisions. They're the ones figuring out who they need to speak to, or if there's a search that needs to be done. It really is at that level, at the case agent, special agent, case agent level, and at the detective level.
[00:17:23] Of course you're going to let your supervisors and upper management know what's going on, but you're really the one that has the pulse of what's going on in your case and what needs to be done and really is not a situation where someone is telling you what to do like that. But Jubal has to have a role at the show, and it's a wonderful role, but no, that is not how it would go.
[00:17:46] Matty: I do think that sometimes TV and movies and books miss an opportunity to introduce something that initially might seem problematic, like let's not have the entire two dozen people in the New York office all working on the same thing. Let's have it be a smaller group and that's going to be interesting in a different way. I'm sorry I'm beating up on the "Clean Slate" episode of FBI but it's the most immediate example I have at the moment, is that there was a part where the little girl's being held somewhere and they find a picture that shows some of the background of the room and they say Oh, fortunately we have a database of pictures of all the hotels in the area and we'll just run the picture that we've gotten of the little girl against this database and seven seconds later, they know what hotel she's in and in fact what room she's in. And even if that's realistic, that could have been so much more suspenseful because it kind of felt lazy. If all you have to do is push a button and you know where she is ...
[00:18:52] Jerri: Yeah. It is true. There is a database, and also in situations where you have a picture where you can see the background clearly, we can actually send those out to hotels and resorts around the world to see if anybody recognizes it. So that is definitely something that we do. But again, it's leg work and, it's hard pounding leg work and leads being sent out and contacts being made. And of course no TV show, and I do recognize this, I actually had somebody email me saying that she thought that we beat up on TV shows and movies too much on my podcast. Come on, they only have 45, 42 minutes to do everything because of commercials.
[00:19:38] And I don't want it to seem like that at all. I recognize -- and this is something that we probably should have said at the beginning -- the most important thing for a writer, for an author, is the story. So we've got people writing fantasy. We've got people writing science fiction. It's okay if you're writing a crime novel if you want to use your imagination. And that's what you think you need to do to get your story out, to write your story.
[00:20:10] I'm just saying to you that somebody who is knowledgeable about how law enforcement works isn't going to read your story, isn't going to enjoy your story. But it's okay if you want to write whatever you want to write. But just know that if it's somebody who's knowledgeable, they're going to catch it and it's going to take them right out of your scene and they're going to just start thinking, did this person do any homework? But it's okay if you want to write whatever you want to write.
[00:20:39] Matty: And it's interesting to think that even something that could be true can take a person out of the story. So for example, in the case of the episode we're talking about, they had all this information about the hotel rooms in a database, so all the computer guy had to do was scan the other picture they had and pretty soon the answer popped up. Even if that were true, it took me out of the story because I spent a little bit of time going, really? And so it's an interesting balance to say if you're introducing something that is true, that is going to take people out of the story, there's probably a special way to set that up so that you're acknowledging that, yes, this might be hard to believe, but this is actually how it works.
[00:21:22] Another example I can think of from that episode is they're pursuing somebody through the woods using, I think a drone and heat sensing technology, and I was okay with that. Again, I don't know if that's true or not, but I was like, okay, I can buy that.
[00:21:35] When you're writing your own fiction, how do you weigh that? What's real. What's not real. And how much it's going to take people out of the story, regardless.
[00:21:44] Jerri: I guess the best answer is beta readers. You know, you think it's good, but if you have somebody read it and they question it, even if it's true, like you said, and they question it, then you have to decide is having this in here that important. If it is going to take people out, if all of a sudden, they're going to read it and they're going to say, Oh, is that true? Does that really happen? And then start Googling it in the middle of reading your story, then you may not want to put it in there if you don't have enough time to explain.
[00:22:15] Maybe a simple line in the show that you're talking about would have been, normally this could take us weeks in order to get a hit back on identifying a room. But you know, we're lucky, this particular hotel room is right here and has been used before in a case. And so it's right there and the database ... you know, just a quick line that makes it seem more plausible. I think what we're both saying is even the new stuff, the real stuff, because they have so much technical stuff on that show that for me, even if it's true, it doesn't happen that fast.
[00:22:52] The facial recognition. So sometimes they can look at a person and do the facial recognition and then come back and tell us, Oh, he's adopted and his parents died and he went to this group home and he ended up in trouble and he ended up in this jail cell. And it was like, what? You got all of that from facial recognition? And I know they need to move the story along and they don't have a lot of time, but sometimes it takes you out of the story to have all of that happen.
[00:23:25] Can I add one thing, though about the show since we're picking on poor FBI, they do a great job of character development.
[00:23:34] Matty: I was going to say that. I agree. Yeah. That was my impression too. Talk about that.
[00:23:38] Jerri: Yeah. So I do think that they show the relationships between all of the players, all the characters, especially the people that are partnering up. We don't necessarily have partners in the FBI, which is another thing that I noted. Everybody has a case. There might be people that they enjoy going out with. But if you need somebody to go with you on an interview or surveillance, usually you just look around the room and pick somebody, a particular person, so you hang out with them, but it's not because you've been put together as a formal partnership.
[00:24:12] It's just you like the same conversations or same topics. And so you hang out together often. But, yeah, but the relationships between them, the concern, the jealousies, and all of that, that's real. And I really enjoy that part of the show and that's why I continue to watch it.
[00:24:31] And I don't necessarily watch it on Tuesdays because I'm watching THIS IS US, but I do watch the show and catch up with it, again because I think it really highlights the FBI, showcases the FBI very, very well. And I appreciate that. I really do appreciate that. Some shows about the FBI are not so kind.
[00:24:52] Matty: Yeah. I can imagine somebody finishing a season of FBI, if they're thinking about what they want their career to be and thinking that might be something that they want to do themselves.
[00:25:02] In terms of the timeline, I think it's interesting that there are shows, and I think that LAW AND ORDER, which I think is from the same guy who is doing FBI, I think Dick Wolf did both of them. It's an interesting comparison because in LAW AND ORDER, there's no sense that the time of the show is the time of the elapsed events. That isn't entirely true for FBI either, but it was more a sense of you're seeing it in real time. Whereas LAW AND ORDER, it's clear that the order part takes place and then time goes by, and then the law part takes place -- you know, the police part and the courtroom part. And so you accommodate that fact that, yes, it could be days, weeks, months, who knows, between those two events, but there's no implication that it's happening immediately.
[00:25:53] And I think that could be an interesting lesson for people who are writing to say maybe you don't have to artificially condense the timeline if you acknowledge to the reader, the time has gone by, but similarly, you don't have to describe that. "In week four, they filed the seventh brief," it's okay to skip over the boring parts, but acknowledge that that kind of work is going on in between.
[00:26:16] Jerri: Yes, absolutely. And of course the issue with that particular TV show is that they try to do everything. And sometimes it feels like it's a day, you know? There's no acknowledgement that somebody went home and went to sleep and came back and this kidnapping investigation has occurred over a week period of time.
[00:26:38] That is something that of course I notice. I'm not sure if the less educated or sophisticated law enforcement viewer notices, but it certainly is something that would be helpful -- that she's been gone now for three days. What are you doing about it? Or something like that that helps us see that this is not something that was done in 24 hours.
[00:27:02] Matty: I wanted to move to a more general question, and that is for people who are writing fiction, or I suppose nonfiction that involves law enforcement, whether that's FBI or otherwise, let's start with the FBI. How do you recommend people approach subject matter experts when they're looking for someone who can help them with these kinds of facts? Or what other resources are out there that they should be taking advantage of?
[00:27:28] Jerri: Of course, I'm going to plug my episodes because one of the reasons that I started the podcast was to educate other writers about how an FBI investigation was really handled. My purpose statement is I'm on a mission to show you who the FBI is and what the FBI does. And so of course I would say, listen to the agent and listen to them talk about how this particular case, and I have 223 episodes and on my website at the bottom there's a dropdown menu in the footer, so if you just want to look at organized crime investigations or you just want to look at serial murder investigations or crimes against children, you can just go to that drop down menu. It will tell you all those episodes under that particular category.
[00:28:19] And I say, listen to them, so you can hear from case agents who've worked these cases how it goes. You might even get some really good story ideas. But in addition to that, see if you know any FBI agents. Maybe they go to your church or maybe somebody that you went to college with, their parent was an FBI agent. So try to find a connection.
[00:28:42] I would love to be able to answer emails from everyone. But I'm so busy right now. If I do get an email, I do my very best to give a quick answer and send them my advice or maybe tell them an episode that they should listen to. But I think the most important thing is to understand that if you're getting all your information about what it's like to work in law enforcement, to be an FBI agent or police detective, from TV or movies are other books, that you're probably not getting the most accurate information.
[00:29:24] And there are two individuals that I know very well that have podcasts and websites that concentrate on getting the policing right. You got the WRITER'S DETECTIVE, and then you have COPS AND WRITERS. Those are two things you can look up. And those individuals are very, very helpful and they have mechanisms in place against their Facebook groups or podcast and things like that, and books, that will also provide you information.
[00:29:58] And so I think those are good outlets when it comes to the FBI. I really do think, and I'm not just saying this, I don't make any money off my podcast, I really think that's a good way for you to really get a good understanding of how a particular type of investigation is handled.
[00:30:15] Every now and then if you have a question, you can send me an email, I'll get back to you as soon as I can. It might be a week or so, but I would suggest that if you can find an FBI agent or a retired agent that you can talk to, that would be great too.
[00:30:30] One of the things that for me that I think when people reach out to me isn't fair and they haven't read my book, then it really bothers me when they ask questions about the FBI or ask me to utilize my time to talk about the FBI. And I think that would be the same case for the other individuals that I've mentioned who have spent their time to create resources and materials, that you do at least take the time to read those before reaching out and asking for additional information.
[00:31:11] Matty: That's a great point. And another episode that I will link to that also gives useful information about asking for subject matter expertise is Chris Grall talked about Mistakes Writers Make about Firearms and How to Avoid Them. And his piece of advice was give the subject matter expert the context. So you don't go through this painful series of emails saying what kind of gun would this person use? How about this? Okay. But could they use that underwater? Once you've gotten the permission to ask the question, then frame it up in a beefy way.
[00:31:50] Jerri: And please don't ask one of us to read your book. Just tell us exactly what you're trying to get across, and then we'll help you with that. But you know, most of us have too many people contacting us to be able to actually read your book or read your chapter. We'll do our very best to answer a specific question that you have.
[00:32:15] Matty: I really liked the idea of using social media and, for example, going to LinkedIn and maybe plugging in FBI and then whatever your alma mater is to find those common connections that you might not even realize are out there. I also found the fourth Ann Kinnear book, which I'm just getting ready to send to the editor now, I had a couple of circumstances. One, I needed someone who had fire investigation experience, and I went to Facebook and I typed in "writer fire investigation" and there was a page that was devoted solely to experienced firefighters who were willing to answer questions from writers about fire investigations and firefighting and fire suppression and all things fire.
[00:32:58] And then the other thing that I thought was very interesting is the other sort of law enforcement aspect I had to research for Ann Kinnear 4 was jurisdictional division between the local police department and the National Park Service, if there was some overlap in what they were investigating. And so I went to the website of the police department that would be in charge of the area where this crime takes place, and I could find the police chief's email. I sent him off an email saying, I'm hoping I can talk to somebody about this. Within an hour, he had gotten back to me and it was a question about dispatching officers to respond to a 911 call, he had put me in touch with one of his dispatchers. We exchanged this really nice email thread. And then I tried to get in touch with somebody at the National Park Service. Crickets.
[00:33:45] So I think what I'm going to do is go to LinkedIn, put in my alma mater and put a National Park Service and see who I can find.
[00:33:52] Jerri: Yeah. It's connection.
[00:33:54] Matty: Yeah. Because they're connections that you probably have that you don't even know that would help you get those kinds of facts right.
[00:34:00] Jerri: Yeah. And I do think that police officers and detectives and FBI agents are more than willing to help. We really want to make sure if we can that you get it right. And one of the reasons that I say that is expectations of the public. So it's not just that I want you to have a great story, but the public is reading your story. They're watching these TV shows and televisions. And so they have a perception of law enforcement that may not necessarily be true.
[00:34:34] And they're not happy. They see on TV where a police officer barges into someone's home and starts berating them, and so that's how they feel, they get that feel, that tension, and that outrage. How dare you just walk into somebody's house and use coercion to get your information.
[00:34:54] And of course the reality is that doesn't occur. Oh, it could occur. It could occur, but that evidence is not going to be able to be used. It is a violation. You don't have a search warrant, you don't have an arrest warrant, you don't have consent. You cannot use threats in order to obtain information from somebody.
[00:35:16] But if that's what you see all the time, then that's what you truly believe is the way that it's done. And so it's also an issue of getting it right because it means something. It really matters when somebody interacts with a police officer, a police detective, an FBI agent, and they think that what they saw on TV is how it happens. Then they're going to be less apt to cooperate, to feel that they're being protected, to feel that this is being done in the right way. And I think that's why it's so important, if you can, be able to try to get your stories as authentic as you can, but still make sure that they're entertaining and interesting.
[00:36:02] Matty: Great. Well, Jerri, thank you so much. This has been so interesting. Please let the listeners know where they can find out more about you, your books, your podcast, and all things Jerri Williams online.
[00:36:13] Jerri: Yes, the best place is my website, JerriWilliams.com, and there you'll be able to see my books. You'll will be able to see my podcast episodes. And we didn't really talk about this a lot, but also my blogs. I do a lot of blogs on different TV shows and movies, where I do a review of what they get wrong and what they get right. I actually blogged every single episode of the first season of FBI.
[00:36:43] In addition to the book and the podcast, I'm very excited that I've gone Hollywood, that I am now an actual consultant on two TV shows that are going to be coming on TV, hopefully later this year in the fall or in 2022. And so I'm doing my part on future shows that are going to be shown to the public and trying to get the FBI right. But again, I'm just a consultant, and so they're going to make those decisions as to how they're going to portray the FBI.
[00:37:18] Matty: And can you share what their shows are?
[00:37:21] Jerri: No, unfortunately. But I'm under contract with one. That's going to be on the FX Network, which is Disney, so I have a contract with Disney. The other one's going to be on HBO Max. So I have a contract with Warner Brothers and Bad Robot for that one. But as far as what they're about, I can't say anything.
[00:37:43] Matty: When you're at the point where you can share that information, let me know, and I will add that to the notes for the podcast so followers and future listeners will be able to find out what those are.
[00:37:53] Jerri: Absolutely. I can't wait because they're fantastic shows. I'm very excited about them.
[00:37:57] Matty: Very cool.
[00:37:58] Jerri: Yes. Yes. Maybe we can find another reason for me to come on because I certainly enjoy talking to you and I certainly enjoy listening to your podcast every week. Thank you so much.
Links
FBI MYTHS AND MISCONCEPTIONS: A MANUAL FOR ARMCHAIR DETECTIVES by Jerri Williams
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