Episode 051 - Podcasting as Content Marketing with Jerri Williams
November 3, 2020
Former FBI special agent Jerri Williams discusses her podcast FBI RETIRED CASE FILES REVIEW and how she has used it as content marketing for her fiction and non-fiction books. She discusses how her goals for the podcast changed over time, the importance of aligning one's creative work behind a unifying theme, how to engage listeners in your community, and what she did when she found that her second love, podcasting, was stealing time from her first love, writing.
Jerri Williams served for 26 years as a special agent in the FBI, working major economic fraud investigations. She uses her prior professional experiences with scams and schemers to write crime fiction about greed. Her novels PAY TO PLAY and GREEDY GIVERS – both inspired by actual FBI cases – feature a female FBI agent assigned to a Public Corruption and Fraud Squad in Philadelphia. She is also the author of the non-fiction book FBI MYTHS AND MISCONCEPTIONS, and the producer and host of the true crime podcast FBI RETIRED CASE FILES REVIEW, where she interviews retired FBI agents about their high-profile cases and careers.
"If you do believe that you want to use podcasting as your content marketing for your books, you need to have audio books because the people that you are addressing are listeners." Jerri Williams
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Matty: Hello and welcome to The Indy Author Podcast today. My guest is Jerri Williams. Hey Jerri, how are you doing?
[00:00:06] Jerri: I am doing great. How are you?
[00:00:08] Matty: I'm doing great, thank you very much. To give our listeners a little bit of background on you …
Jerri Williams served 26 years as a special agent in the FBI, working major economic fraud investigations. She uses her prior professional experiences with scams and schemers to write crime fiction about greed. Her novels Pay to Play and Greedy Givers – both inspired by actual FBI cases – feature a female FBI agent assigned to a Public Corruption and Fraud Squad in Philadelphia.
If Jerri’s experiences in the FBI is something you’d like to learn more about, check out her non-fiction book, FBI Myths and Misconceptions: A Manual for Armchair Detectives, in which she presents the top 20 clichés about the FBI in books, TV, and movies.
But our discussion today is based on another area of Jerri’s expertise – as the producer and host of the true crime podcast FBI Retired Case File Review, where she interviews retired FBI agents about their high-profile cases and careers.
[00:01:08] And that is the topic we're going to be talking about today: podcasting as content marketing. So, Jerri, I wanted to start right out asking first, were you a podcast listener before you were a podcaster?
[00:01:21] Jerri: Yes. And that's exactly how I decided to use podcasting as my author platform. So I was listening to podcasts I was enjoying podcasts. And when it was time for me to get ready to publish my first book, I wanted to create some type of way to introduce myself to potential readers. People were blogging at the time, but people were also podcasting. And I thought, this is something I could do. I know my way behind a microphone. So I thought I'm going to do my own podcast.
[00:01:58] Matty: Is the blog idea something you thought about pursuing? ...
[00:00:06] Jerri: I am doing great. How are you?
[00:00:08] Matty: I'm doing great, thank you very much. To give our listeners a little bit of background on you …
Jerri Williams served 26 years as a special agent in the FBI, working major economic fraud investigations. She uses her prior professional experiences with scams and schemers to write crime fiction about greed. Her novels Pay to Play and Greedy Givers – both inspired by actual FBI cases – feature a female FBI agent assigned to a Public Corruption and Fraud Squad in Philadelphia.
If Jerri’s experiences in the FBI is something you’d like to learn more about, check out her non-fiction book, FBI Myths and Misconceptions: A Manual for Armchair Detectives, in which she presents the top 20 clichés about the FBI in books, TV, and movies.
But our discussion today is based on another area of Jerri’s expertise – as the producer and host of the true crime podcast FBI Retired Case File Review, where she interviews retired FBI agents about their high-profile cases and careers.
[00:01:08] And that is the topic we're going to be talking about today: podcasting as content marketing. So, Jerri, I wanted to start right out asking first, were you a podcast listener before you were a podcaster?
[00:01:21] Jerri: Yes. And that's exactly how I decided to use podcasting as my author platform. So I was listening to podcasts I was enjoying podcasts. And when it was time for me to get ready to publish my first book, I wanted to create some type of way to introduce myself to potential readers. People were blogging at the time, but people were also podcasting. And I thought, this is something I could do. I know my way behind a microphone. So I thought I'm going to do my own podcast.
[00:01:58] Matty: Is the blog idea something you thought about pursuing? ...
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[00:02:03] Jerri: Not initially. Now I do blog now, and it really is a spinoff from the podcast and of course the book, FBI MYTHS AND MISCONCEPTIONS. So I blog about TV shows and movies about the FBI -- what they get right, what they get wrong, what kind of creative compromises they've made. And so I've gone through many of those TV shows and movies in the book, but I also blog about them as they come out on TV. I actually blogged the whole first season of the new CBS show, FBI. That was a lot of fun.
[00:02:38] Matty: Oh, I'll have to check that out. So you touched a little bit there on what your goal was with the podcast. Just expand upon that a little bit -- what were you looking to achieve?
[00:02:48] Jerri: I was looking to be able to introduce myself to potential readers. My first book was coming out and I heard you need to make sure people know about you and about your book. And I thought to myself, what could I do that would help introduce me, help set me up before the book comes out. And so I decided I was going to do a podcast and I easily came up with the idea of interviewing retired agents.
[00:03:20] Jerri: At the time I was looking to go the traditional route and I had an agent, a literary agent with Curtis Brown. And he explained to me that he wanted me to start building my platform and I had to decide, well, how am I going to do that? People sometimes try to build their platform on social media, and I don't think that works. I think social media is a time to be social and to be able to communicate with readers and potential readers, but how do you find them? How do you bring them to you and to your books? And I think two good ways of doing it are blogging and podcasting -- being on YouTube or on video. And I chose podcasting.
[00:04:03] I had been listening to podcasts. I was enjoying it and I kind of know my way behind a microphone. Along with being an FBI agent, I've also been a spokesperson for the FBI and the spokesperson for SEPTA. And I know you know SEPTA very well. It's the public transit system for Philadelphia. And so podcasting really became a really easy choice for me to do.
[00:04:26] Matty: And did you find that your goals changed over time from what you originally thought you were going to be able to get from podcasting?
[00:04:35] Jerri: Absolutely. So I chose as my podcasting focus to interview retired agents. And I did that because as a spokesperson for the Philadelphia division, I had done it on many occasions, putting the FBI out there in the public and letting people get an idea of what the FBI does and who the FBI is. So I thought that's what I'll do. And as I talk about the different crime stories, then I can use my own ad to tell people -- I have a book coming out that's based on a true crime FBI story and it's FBI crime fiction -- and so really that was my focus.
[00:05:14] But it all changed in the fall of 2016 during the election, when the FBI was thrust into the political climate. And at that time, it became almost a mission. And even though I had just published my book, the mission of podcasting and giving the public an opportunity to really understand what agents do and who agents are kind of took over. And in a way, and I'm not sad about this, but for a year or two, that focus of really introducing the FBI to the public became the top of the list and getting them to read my books became secondary. And again, I'm not upset about that. It was almost, I hate to say it this way, but it was almost like a public service that I decided to do.
[00:06:11] I continued writing books and I continued talking about them. But the main focus was for me to find cases that really highlighted the sacrifices that agents make. One of the things that I decided to do was to never be political, never be partisan. And so I don't discuss my personal views. And I know there are people that are going to be on the podcast thinking different things about the FBI, and what I do is to just listen and then let the case reviews speak for the FBI. I still want to sell books.
[00:06:47] Matty: So how did you mesh those two goals that you had?
[00:06:50] Jerri: What I did is that in the introduction of every episode, I tell people that the podcast is all about true crime, but if they're also interested in crime fiction, I invite them to join my reader team. And again, what I'm trying to do is to pull from all the people who listen to the podcast, those people who are readers. Those people who are interested in crime fiction. And once I get them on to my reader team, then I can talk more about my books and my love of crime fiction and my love of reading and share that with them.
[00:07:29] And so I do that at the beginning of every episode during the introduction. And at the very end, I invite them again to join my reader team. And one of my bonuses to join my reader team is what I call my FBI Reading Resource, and that is a colorful list of books about the FBI that, here's the key, every one of them is written by an FBI agent who has already been on the podcast. So since I've been doing this for almost five years, I now have about 55 books, including my three -- actually four -- FBI books.
[00:08:10] Jerri: So my FBI Reading Resource includes books that are crime fiction, that are true crime, and that are memoirs. And again, all of them have been written by people who have already been on the podcast. I think it's definitely a big draw for people to join my reader team.
[00:08:30] Matty: I want to talk a little bit in a moment more about community building, but the idea that you had this reading resource of books that your podcast guests had written, I thought was brilliant because you're probably at least skimming these books in advance of your interviews with them. You're already familiar with the books and then I would think it would be almost part of your research process to provide the information that then you can pass on to your listeners as an extra, as opposed to a completely separate effort that you're having to put out to create a deliverable that's appealing to readers. Am I assessing that correctly, about the amount of extra work you have to put in for that resource?
[00:09:12] Jerri: Yeah, it definitely is all integrated in putting the podcast together. And so I really do like to find retired agents who have written books, because I know that they're going to do really well at presenting the cases. I call it an interview show, but I really like the guests to kind of take over and do a case review starting from the beginning of the case to the very end. And sometimes that means that the podcast is more than an hour and a half long. So it's a lot of work for my guests.
[00:09:44] I really expect them to create an outline so there's a nice flow. And I know that if they have a book, that outline's already made, it's called their table of contents. And so it always works out really, really well when I have someone on that's either written a book or is writing a book about their FBI career. And so it makes really good show notes. It makes really good content for the podcast. And then I can also repeat it again in my reader magnet, which is the FBI Reading Resource.
[00:10:22] Matty: That's great. I think anywhere where a creative person can create a piece of content and then use it over and over again is brilliant because sometimes as a listener of a podcast, I'll hear about reader outreach -- reader resources or listener resources -- and it just sounds to me like such a large additional effort that the podcaster is having to go to to create it. And at some point, there are only so many hours of the day and you have to make the best use you can of the resources that you're coming up with.
[00:10:53] Jerri: Yeah, definitely. And then talking about that, when I was talking about how the podcast, which was created to support my writing, kind of took over, and I realized that I didn't have any time to write. I was doing a weekly podcast and that meant every week having a guest to come on, reading their book or reading a newspaper accounts of the cases and really getting a good understanding so I can ask intelligent questions or at least help direct them as they give their case review. If they forgot something, then I'll say, But didn't that person also ... I knew enough to be able to help them with the flow of the interview. But I was putting so much time in that, that I wasn't really writing anymore.
[00:11:43] And so I realized I needed to make a change. And so one of the things I did was instead of it being a weekly podcast, I started doing the podcast every other week. That was about a year and a half ago, and it's so much better now. I do know I made a sacrifice because the podcast is doing very well. It's almost always one of the top 200 true crime podcasts on Apple Podcasts, I'm nearing 4 million downloads total, in just about four years. And so I know it's doing very well, and going from weekly to every other week, I probably lost a little momentum.
[00:12:26] But I want to write. It's about the books, and my third crime novel that's taken me, I don't know, two years, almost three years to write, because in the meantime I've written two nonfiction books. I also moved. I was living in the Philadelphia / South Jersey area and I moved to Raleigh, North Carolina this summer during COVID. And so a lot of things happened. So I hope that I can get back to my first love, which is writing books, and also continue with my second love, which is podcasting.
[00:13:01] Matty: When you had made that switch from weekly to every other week, what did you do to prepare your listeners for that change?
[00:13:10] Jerri: I actually just let them know. I actually took the whole month of October 2018 off. I was going to Paris, and I think the first time I went overseas, I was still podcasting, so I was still putting up my episode when I was out of town. And I decided I wasn't going to do that this time. So at first, I thought it was just going to take a break. I was going to take a three-week break because I was going to be away. And then I thought, you know what? This is a great time to take a break and then let people know that when I come back that I'm going to be doing it every other week.
[00:13:46] And I think it's important as we're talking about using podcasting as content marketing, to say that to your listeners, that whatever you're using as content marketing, if it is a blog or being a YouTuber or podcasting, you've got to be able to balance it where it is not taking away from your main goal.
[00:14:11] And so when I discovered that that was what was happening, I made that change. And I don't know if it's really hurt me. The podcast continues to grow. I think that in the next year or so, it's going to even grow bigger, to even increase, because I'm going to be doing some things marketing-wise with the podcast and my books to do that.
[00:14:34] Like I don't do any advertising. My podcast is the only marketing tool that I use. I've never advertised. I haven't done Facebook. I haven't done Amazon ads. All I've done is the podcast. And luckily, I've had enough interest from my listeners that it's sustained everything. And I did that on purpose because listening to your podcast and Joanna Penn and SELF-PUBLISHING, I really did believe that it would be better for me to complete the trilogy, my the three crime novels, before I spent my money and energy on advertising.
[00:15:15] I'm retired. I'm not doing this as some people are as a way of making a living, and for those people, they need to do what they need to do in order to generate income. I have that luxury of being able to wait. My books will always be new to people who don't know anything about them. And so when I have that third book done, then I'll start looking into advertising on Facebook and Amazon ads, and of course, podcast advertising.
[00:15:44] Matty: Have you given any thought to what kind of podcasts you would pursue for podcast advertising?
[00:15:53] Jerri: Absolutely. It would be true crime podcasts that concentrate on frauds and corruption. And so there are a lot of true crime podcasts, so many out there, that talk about murders and some type of violent crime. My books are all about corruption and fraud. That's what I did in my career. I worked on an economic crime squad. I did frauds and scams and Ponzi schemes, and so that's what my books are about. And so it wouldn't make a lot of sense for me to advertise on a podcast that is all about murder and violent crime. But there's so many podcasts out there now that are just concentrating on corruption and con men and scamming and swindles and things like that. That's where I would definitely advertise.
[00:16:48] Matty: I think that's really the direction that podcasts and content in general is going, to have it more and more niched down. And you are theoretically limiting your potential pool of listeners by niching down, but I think that you really up the commitment that the listeners you find are going to have to your podcast, because they're so specifically interested in that.
[00:17:12] And I know for The Indy Author Podcast, I have framed it up as the writing craft and the publishing voyage, which is pretty broad, and I'm still happy with that because it gives me an opportunity to talk to lots and lots of different kinds of people, but I can imagine over time if I and my listeners start feeling a tendency toward a more niched-down topic, that I might go in that direction, because it is the advice I hear from all the people whose advice I pay attention to and respect, that the more niched-down you can be, the better.
[00:17:43] Jerri: Yeah. And I think I also did that with my non-fiction book, FBI MYTHS AND MISCONCEPTIONS, because I use the podcast as content in the book. So if I talk about, maybe, one of the misconceptions is that FBI profilers chase down serial killers. And so in the book, I'll have quotes from different agents that I've interviewed who work either serial killer cases or are profilers, and have quotes from them explaining that the profiler is a consultant that comes in and helps the investigator find out who could have done this crime, from the evidence that you have here, what can we find in that evidence that's going to help you solve what appears to be unsolvable case? And so the profiler is not the one chasing down a dark alley or in a dark basement. It's still a special agent, usually working with one of the local police departments or state police that are trying to put together these murders that have a commonality.
[00:18:50] And say in that particular chapter, I'll talk about what the truth is. I'll bring in the quotes from agents I've interviewed. And then I bring in a movie or a TV show that covers that same chapter, that same misconception. And then I talk about crime writing and how you have to make creative compromises, and why this particular movie was true and what was a cliche.
[00:19:20] And so I've pulled that together, again, trying to get my true crime podcast to work for me as an avenue for my crime fiction writing. And so if you go to my website, you'll see my logo and then you'll see true crime fiction, because that's what I did. My blog is about crime fiction. My podcast is about true crime and my books are crime fiction, crime novels, that pull from true FBI cases. And so I really have thought a lot about this. And again, not just talking about me, but sharing this with your listeners: if you decide to do a podcast, the number one thing that you need to ask yourself is are the people who will be listening to my podcast the same people who will be reading my books and if the answer is no, then your podcast is not going to be content marketing for your books.
[00:20:22] Matty: Yeah, that's a great observation. And I'm curious, you talked about the fact that your goals evolved over time from just selling books to also being this public service announcement for the FBI. Did you find that the demographics of your listeners changed and how did that impact the business goals that you had for your podcast?
[00:20:45] Jerri: You know, I know who my listeners are, I think that's another thing: who are your listeners, and are they the same people who are going to buy your books? And really my listeners are pretty broad. I have people that just love true crime and we know it's very, very popular. I have people that want to become FBI agents. Or maybe it's too late for them, but they're still very interested in the FBI from that standpoint as a career.
[00:21:16] And then I have people who are crime writers. I've met so many wonderful people in the TV and movie industry. I've met so many newspaper reporters and journalists who reach out to me. And of course I've met many people that are crime writers that are listening to the podcast to get that authenticity and to get that reality and to not have to depend on other TV shows about the FBI or movies to get it right. That's one of the reasons that the nonfiction book has done so well.
[00:21:52] And that basically was me doing marketing directed towards my audience. That book was created for the purpose of getting readers who were in my audience, because I say that book is for anyone who reads, writes, or watches crime fiction, and for those who always wanted to be an FBI agent. That takes care of everyone that is in my audience.
[00:22:23] Matty: That's a nice pool of people to be able to tap into.
[00:22:27] Jerri: Yeah.
[00:22:27] Matty: I really like the commonality of how you're positioning all these components of the things you have to offer, because you're really setting yourself up -- you have set yourself up -- to be the go-to person if anyone in the creative community is thinking FBI and fraud, you're the name that's going to pop up because you've hit that message so consistently across so many different platforms that you're making yourself the go-to person for anything in that area.
[00:22:55] Jerri: I would even expand that to just the FBI overall. Definitely my expertise as an investigator was in fraud, but the last five years of my career in the FBI, I was the spokesperson. So I was the person who went out to the media to talk about the FBI. I wrote those press releases that they read and turned into newspaper articles. I was on camera on 6 ABC, NBC 10, all of those channels that you know so well. I was the spokesperson talking about the FBI.
[00:23:30] And then during that time period, I developed an expertise on all of the violations that the FBI works. And of course now, as a podcaster who's interviewed 214 FBI agents about all the different violations that the FBI works, I really do feel that I have a really vast knowledge of the FBI. And if I don't know something, I know I don't know something, and I can go out and find that information.
[00:24:03] Of course, I don't have the luxury and I wish I did to be able to help crime writers -- individual crime writers -- about the FBI. I can't read everybody's books or their synopsis and then help them with the writing. I can't do that anymore. I did start out help trying to help people, but now I do have the book. I have the podcast where if you write to me and you're saying that you're doing a story about a particular violation, I will be able to give you a list of those podcasts that I've done already that covers that particular topic. I'm more than willing to do that.
[00:24:38] And of course, I think I mentioned to you and I've announced in the last couple of weeks that I am now working as a TV consultant. I'm working on two TV shows. I'm under contract with Ethics Network and I'm under contract with Warner Brothers and Bad Robot, and I'm helping them as they are writing the new TV shows that will be coming out in 2021 and boy that's exciting. Because it is not me writing crime novels and it's not me podcasting, but it certainly is me in the writing craft and being able to have an opportunity to talk about the FBI and crime writing and crime fiction. It's a lot of fun
[00:25:24] Matty: That does sound like a lot of fun.
[00:25:26] Jerri: Yeah. And something that I never even thought of. And so that's another thing you're thinking about using podcasting as content marketing, you have no idea where it could take you,what other avenues in the writing field that you'll be able to get into because you took the time to create a podcast.
[00:25:48] Matty: Of those over 200 people that you've interviewed on your podcast, what percentage of those were people that you approached and what percentage were people who approached you asking to be on your podcast?
[00:26:00] Jerri: 100% were people that I approached.
[00:26:03] Matty: Really? Interesting.
[00:26:05] Jerri: Yeah. And I think that is one of the things that is a little bit different for me. I'll be happy to admit that I contacted you. I do listen to your podcast. And when I heard that you were writing a book that was about using podcasting as content marketing, I felt that I had something to contribute and I thought, I want to reach out and let her know all the stuff that I have knowledge about that I would love to be able to contribute and to share with people. Because I do know that a number of people that write who have podcasts, their podcasts are about writing, about publishing, in the sense that mine is not, I wanted to make sure that I contribute to that.
[00:26:49] I'm thinking like somebody who's writing a book about a character who likes to fish could have a podcast about fishing. I want to expand people's thoughts about how podcasting can be content marketing for their books, that their books are about a certain topic, a certain subject. That's what the podcast could be about. Not necessarily about writing and publishing.
[00:27:16] Matty: Yes. I also want to say that the email you sent me was like the poster child of the way to pitch oneself to a podcast, because it was clear that you understood what The Indy Author Podcast was about, what kind of topics would be of interest. You made it super easy with links and so on to get more information about you.
[00:27:37] As opposed to, for example, I had gotten an email that was not only clearly a form letter, but it was addressed to someone else. And it was clear that they had just copied it in and they had forgotten to update the podcast name. I even recognized the podcasters whose names they mentioned. I was like, You know what? You thought you sent that to so-and-so, and you didn't.
[00:27:59] So I have a section in the book you referenced that will be coming out shortly, I'm not sure exactly when, but THE INDY AUTHOR'S GUIDE TO PODCASTING FOR AUTHORS about if people are pitching to be a guest on a podcast, make it super easy for the podcaster to assess your pitch and make sure it's appropriate for the podcast you're pitching.
[00:28:18] Jerri: I have to say that I don't pitch a lot. I've been on a number of podcasts and most of those situations, people have come to me because I have a message that they want to hear. But if I do see something that I really feel I can contribute, then I do reach out and say, Hey, I know you're talking about this, I'd love to give you some additional content or additional things to think about. I'm so glad that you said yes.
[00:28:43] Matty: Yes. I have to say you made my day, when I got that email, I was like, Oh, look, who's pitching me! This is so exciting!
[00:28:49] Have you found that your podcast is a better lead for your fiction work or your non-fiction work? Do you see a difference there?
[00:28:59] Jerri: I will say that I sell more of my nonfiction, FBI MYTHS AND MISCONCEPTIONS because almost everybody who is listening to my podcast can relate to that book and get something out of that book. Every single chapter still is directed towards people who read, write, or watch crime fiction and anybody who wants to be an agent. So it's a great recruiting book. If you're interested in becoming an agent, and you think you know about the FBI because you watch the FBI CBS show, then reading my book will help you not embarrass yourself at the interview or at Quantico because you're going to get the reality of what it really is like. So yes, that book sells more, but I understand why. I wrote that to market. I wrote that for the purpose of who my listeners are.
[00:29:53] But I do sell my crime fiction through the podcast. And again, I have never done any type of advertising other than the podcast. So yeah, it's, very helpful in that sense, but again, you have to find a niche and you introduce the show by talking about having a niche for your podcast but finding a niche for the listenership that relates to what you're writing about. And I think I've done that.
[00:30:23] So I think that I've been a successful podcaster that has also helped me be a successful self-publisher and I do want to make sure people know that I am self-publishing my books. I'm very proud of that. I did start out traditionally and never even thought about self-publishing and I was able to get a literary agent at one of the best literary agencies in the country, but he didn't sell my book.
[00:30:51] And I know the feedback I was getting: my FBI agent is not like the FBI agents I interviewed. She's extremely flawed. My first book is about her investigating corruption in a strip club and in the strip club industry. And Joseph Wambaugh says that a good crime novel is not about how a cop works on crime, but how the crime works on the cop.
[00:31:18] It's one of my favorite quotes. And so I set her up as being an agent who's working corruption in a strip club industry, who has a very deep pain that comes out as she's working this strip club crime. And so it has sex, it has profanity, it has a lot of things that people aren't used to when they think about FBI agents. And I use my imagination. It's crime fiction, definitely, but because of that, the book at the time didn't sell. And that was before the Me Too movement. I think it would have probably sold now very well, but it didn't sell then.
[00:32:00] And I had so much belief in the book. I knew that I had worked on it for a number of years. I had worked with a developmental editor. I had worked with editors. My literary agent had worked with me on the book and had me change some plot lines, and he even had me change the name of the book. So I knew that it was strong, and we all know that traditional books sometimes are not accepted not because they're not good, but because they're hard to sell.
[00:32:34] And so once I had that book, I believed in it so much that I decided I'm not putting this in a drawer. I'm going to self-publish and it worked out so well that I'm working on my fifth book now.
[00:32:48] Matty: I really like the idea that you have both the fiction and nonfiction, because I think in terms of appealing to the niche in your audience, that is crime fiction writers, it's heartening to see that the person that you're looking to for nonfiction advice knows the requirements of fiction writing as well, because the subject matter experts that I've valued the most are not those that say, No, you can't say that because that would never happen. They would always file that format in triplicate, and then it would be two weeks until they got a response. And instead understand that you have to balance an overenthusiastic commitment to absolute accuracy with the plot and drama needs of crime fiction and can help you work through, Well, okay, you don't want to show them having to fill out the form in triplicate and waiting two weeks to get the response, but here's a way you can work around it that is going to serve both the needs of a reasonable amount of accuracy and making it interesting for the reader.
[00:33:48] So I think when you can illustrate that you've considered all those things yourself for your own work, that's really nice for the people to hear who may be going to your nonfiction book to understand the details.
[00:34:01] Jerri: And even though law enforcement officers are not necessarily your readers, are the people that you're writing these crime books for, you want to be able to have them read it and not look at it and say, Oh, this is a bunch of -- and then take it and throw it against the wall. And so at least if you just try to get much of it right, I think they can understand when you shorten the timeline or when you skip from this level to, next thing you know, you're investigating and next thing you know, you're in a trial.
[00:34:37] I think they're willing to move along in the story with you and not be taken out of the story if you at least acknowledge that three months have passed and now you're in trial instead of trying to make people believe that you investigated the case and within three weeks, you're at the trial. That's not the way it works. So having something in your story that shows that you have a knowledge, that you have an understanding is just so great and it helps to make it believable.
[00:35:10] And it also helps me because you're not putting out information that somebody else is going to pick up on and repeat later on and continue the cliches that are out there, unfortunately.
[00:35:22] Matty: Yeah. The whisper down the lane effect.
[00:35:25] Jerri: I do want to say one more thing that I think we should talk about. And that is, if you do believe that you want to use podcasting as your content marketing for your books, you need to have audio books because the people that you are addressing are listeners. And so if you're trying to now get them to read your books, but you're not offering it in a format that they enjoy, listening, then that's going to be a hard sell too.
[00:35:56] So all of my books, the nonfiction and the two crime novels, are also audio books. And again, I did that on purpose because I knew that most of my listeners were coming from the podcast. And so I needed to make sure that I was giving them the book the way that they enjoy engaging in that type of reading.
[00:36:18] Matty: Did you narrate any of them?
[00:36:20] Jerri: Yes, I narrated the nonfiction book, which was a lot of fun because I decided instead of trying to do it at home and edit it myself, I went to a recording studio, the same recording studio that Lisa Scottoline uses, and so that was kind of fun. I had the same engineer as she does, and I know her -- she actually blurbed my book.
[00:36:44] It's a lot of fun being in the recording studio and reading the book and then having the engineer say, Could you repeat that again? You flubbed over that word, are you sure that's how you pronounce it? And then he would stop and look it up to make sure that if I pronounce the particular actor or movie, that I pronounce it the right way. So we were definitely working as a team. And then he did all of the editing and then presented the audio book to me, so it was a lot of fun.
[00:37:11] It costs as much as having a voice narrator do your own book, but it was definitely worth it for me to be able to get such a highly polished audio book as the outcome, instead of it being me kind of doing my podcast in a book form. So I really enjoyed that.
[00:37:33] Matty: Yeah. I'm trying to narrate the audio book for my first non-fiction book, which is TAKING THE SHORT TACK, and I'm going to be doing an audio book of PODCASTING FOR AUTHORS when it comes out. And I'm doing it in a room that is now hung with shower curtains and buffered with towels and it's sort of a mess. But I do think that people love hearing non-fiction books from the author.
[00:38:01] Fiction is tougher because I would never try to narrate a fiction book because there's the whole acting part of it that I think is just not me and doing accents. One of my books has several Swedish people in it, including some brief blurbs of Swedish dialogue, and bless the heart of the audio book narrator who got to do the book that had that. But I do think people really like that personal connection.
[00:38:24] It comes back to what we were talking about earlier, the sense of community and the personal sense that you can develop through a podcast that blogs, for example, just don't lend themselves to. People get to feel like they know you with the audio book, and I think your suggestion of appealing to that audio-loving crowd with podcasts and audio books is a great one. They like to hear it from the person. And you have a lovely voice, and so you don't have to worry about people not being willing to listen to you for a couple of hours. I think that's great advice.
[00:38:55] Jerri: I really agree with you on that. And that's one of the reasons that I did narrate the nonfiction book. But I'm like you, there was no way, with the different dialogues and things that were going on in my crime novels, that I was going to tackle that. I hired a real actress to do that, and she's done a fabulous job and she'll be doing the voice for the third crime novel when I get that done. Hopefully it will be soon because I'm working on it hard now.
[00:39:24] Matty: And you can clue her in on how to say things like Schuylkill and Bryn Mawr and Paoli, all those place names that are tricky to look up on the internet.
[00:39:34] Jerri: One of the advantages that I never ever thought about for using the podcast as content marketing for my book is advanced readers and advanced reviewers. That has been a wonderful thing that's happened from this. Whenever I have a book that comes out, I'll say on the podcast that for those listeners who are members of my reader team, I'm going to have an opportunity for you to be advanced readers of my books. And if you want to join my advanced reader team, make sure you're a member of my reader team. And I'll put out information about that in the next newsletter.
[00:40:16] I do a monthly newsletter, which is very colorful. It's not just a list of the podcasts for the last month, but books that I've read, podcasts that I've been listening to. I always do a blog about a TV show, and then I do a personal blog. So it's a complete newsletter of all the things that have to do with true crime and crime fiction as they emerge. But I've been able to get some wonderful advanced readers. I have been able to get some wonderful reviewers, every book that I published, as soon as that first day or two, I have at least 20 to 25 reviews to start off.
[00:40:52] And that all comes from me engaging with listeners who love to also read books and who have been very willing to help me with all of my launches, including the very first book. I started the podcast in January of 2016, that book didn't come out until September of 2016. So my very first book had a wonderful launch because of the fact that I had been doing the podcast for nine months and that I was able to use those listeners to help me get it right.
[00:41:25] And of course I used an editor, a professional editor, but I also use my listeners for those little things that sometimes you miss. They're very good at being beta readers.
[00:41:38] I really stress that this is not just an opportunity to get the book in advance and get it for free. It really is to help me make the best book possible. And of course always when people sign up, you're not going to get 100% of the people to follow through, but the people who do agree to do it, a large number of them take the commitment very seriously and get back to me. And so I really appreciate that. I don't say everybody who gets my newsletter is going to get an advanced copy of this because that's not going to be very helpful to the readers at the end of the line when the book was finally published.
[00:42:15] Now everybody who joins my reader team, at the bottom of every newsletter will be the updated copy of the FBI Reading Resource, which is the books about the FBI written by FBI agents. They also always will have the FBI Reality Checklist, which is the 20 cliches about the FBI in books, TV, and movies, which are basically the chapters in my book.
[00:42:41] I also have a book that I created, which was so much fun, with my son that came out this year, which is the FBI WORD SEARCH PUZZLES, which I say is fun for armchair detectives. And even though it's a search word puzzle book, it is chocked with information about the FBI. So if I talk about the FBI during an international espionage, then I have a paragraph talking about what that means and what the FBI does. And then you have all of these words and terminology that come under the FBI's working intelligence that people may not even be aware of. You're going to have to look them up, but at least you're going to be made aware of what these words are.
[00:43:25] And then I have this really fun thing that's in the back of the book, I have FBI terminology and key words that you may never know, like, he's in the wind or he's out of pocket or this person got brick time. I don't know if you know what any of that means, but it's FBI lingo or idioms that we use that, that I also have in the back of the book. So even though it's a puzzle book, it's just chock-full of information about the FBI too.
[00:43:53] That's just a print book, so it doesn't do as well as the other books, because the other books of course are available as print books and hardback and eBooks and audio books. But this one is just a paperback, so it's not doing as well, but I still love it.
[00:44:08] Matty: Well, and you're measuring the success of it, not just by the money it's earning you, but by the goodwill and the entertainment value it's bringing to the people that's just strengthening that community bond that you're trying to build with them.
[00:44:21] Jerri: Yes, absolutely.
[00:44:23] Matty: You have a really great ecosystem going there around your FBI expertise. Very impressive.
[00:44:29] Matty: One thing I wanted to ask is I think that you recently rebranded your logo for the podcast. Is that right? Can you talk a little bit about the rebranding effort?
<See Jerri's podcast logo before and after rebranding below.>
[00:44:40] Jerri: I redesigned the logo because my podcast logo was not an appropriate podcast logo. Podcasts logos need to be clean. They need to be fresh. You need to be able to look at it in a little tiny box and be able to see exactly what that podcast is about either because of what's written there and the font, or because the image that you use really illustrates what the topic of the podcast is. I did that on overload. I had a man in handcuffs. I had the FBI seal. I had a gun. I had the word. It was just way too much. And I knew this. I learned really that my podcast logo was overcrowded and not the best logo at Podcast Movement when it was in Philadelphia. People would look at it and say, Oh, you really should clean this up a bit.
[00:45:38] But I was afraid at the time because the podcast was growing. And like I said, I'm close to 4 million podcasts and I really thought if I change it, then people won't recognize it. And that was just totally untrue. So I actually changed that logo. I mentioned to a friend of mine and I had to give him a shout out, Javier Leiva, who is the host of Pretend Radio, which is a podcast about frauds and crimes and things like that, so that's how we connected.
[00:46:09] And I mentioned it to him. We had a socially distanced coffee meetup, because he lives here in Raleigh, too. And I mentioned to him that I need to clean this up. I know I need to refresh this. And he said, I'll do it. And by the end of the day, he had this new podcast that now, if you look at it, immediately tells you FBI. It's very clean. It's very fresh.
[00:46:32] And I can tell you that I have seen a definite increase in the number of people who are listening to the podcast just in the last week that that's been out. And it's all because they're scrolling through, maybe they even search for an FBI podcast, and mine always shows up first, thank goodness, because I've been doing this for almost five years, but what hits them as that gold FBI -- bam. And I really do believe that just because I changed the podcast, instead of losing listeners, I actually am gaining listeners.
[00:47:08] Matty: Well, Jerri, this has all been such great information and I'm taking lots of notes here about things that I want to consider both for my own podcast and for the PODCASTING FOR AUTHORS book. So please let people know where they can go to find out more about you, your podcast, your books, and your other work.
[00:47:25] Jerri: Yes, I would love for them to visit me at jerriwilliams.com. That's my website. And when you go there, you'll have access to all of the podcasts episodes, my crime fiction, my non-fiction, and my fun blog, which is about the FBI in books, TV, and movies. I'm also on Twitter and Instagram and I have a Facebook page. So if you're really looking for me, I'm easy to find.
[00:47:55] Matty: Great. Thank you so much, Jerri, this has been so helpful.
[00:02:38] Matty: Oh, I'll have to check that out. So you touched a little bit there on what your goal was with the podcast. Just expand upon that a little bit -- what were you looking to achieve?
[00:02:48] Jerri: I was looking to be able to introduce myself to potential readers. My first book was coming out and I heard you need to make sure people know about you and about your book. And I thought to myself, what could I do that would help introduce me, help set me up before the book comes out. And so I decided I was going to do a podcast and I easily came up with the idea of interviewing retired agents.
[00:03:20] Jerri: At the time I was looking to go the traditional route and I had an agent, a literary agent with Curtis Brown. And he explained to me that he wanted me to start building my platform and I had to decide, well, how am I going to do that? People sometimes try to build their platform on social media, and I don't think that works. I think social media is a time to be social and to be able to communicate with readers and potential readers, but how do you find them? How do you bring them to you and to your books? And I think two good ways of doing it are blogging and podcasting -- being on YouTube or on video. And I chose podcasting.
[00:04:03] I had been listening to podcasts. I was enjoying it and I kind of know my way behind a microphone. Along with being an FBI agent, I've also been a spokesperson for the FBI and the spokesperson for SEPTA. And I know you know SEPTA very well. It's the public transit system for Philadelphia. And so podcasting really became a really easy choice for me to do.
[00:04:26] Matty: And did you find that your goals changed over time from what you originally thought you were going to be able to get from podcasting?
[00:04:35] Jerri: Absolutely. So I chose as my podcasting focus to interview retired agents. And I did that because as a spokesperson for the Philadelphia division, I had done it on many occasions, putting the FBI out there in the public and letting people get an idea of what the FBI does and who the FBI is. So I thought that's what I'll do. And as I talk about the different crime stories, then I can use my own ad to tell people -- I have a book coming out that's based on a true crime FBI story and it's FBI crime fiction -- and so really that was my focus.
[00:05:14] But it all changed in the fall of 2016 during the election, when the FBI was thrust into the political climate. And at that time, it became almost a mission. And even though I had just published my book, the mission of podcasting and giving the public an opportunity to really understand what agents do and who agents are kind of took over. And in a way, and I'm not sad about this, but for a year or two, that focus of really introducing the FBI to the public became the top of the list and getting them to read my books became secondary. And again, I'm not upset about that. It was almost, I hate to say it this way, but it was almost like a public service that I decided to do.
[00:06:11] I continued writing books and I continued talking about them. But the main focus was for me to find cases that really highlighted the sacrifices that agents make. One of the things that I decided to do was to never be political, never be partisan. And so I don't discuss my personal views. And I know there are people that are going to be on the podcast thinking different things about the FBI, and what I do is to just listen and then let the case reviews speak for the FBI. I still want to sell books.
[00:06:47] Matty: So how did you mesh those two goals that you had?
[00:06:50] Jerri: What I did is that in the introduction of every episode, I tell people that the podcast is all about true crime, but if they're also interested in crime fiction, I invite them to join my reader team. And again, what I'm trying to do is to pull from all the people who listen to the podcast, those people who are readers. Those people who are interested in crime fiction. And once I get them on to my reader team, then I can talk more about my books and my love of crime fiction and my love of reading and share that with them.
[00:07:29] And so I do that at the beginning of every episode during the introduction. And at the very end, I invite them again to join my reader team. And one of my bonuses to join my reader team is what I call my FBI Reading Resource, and that is a colorful list of books about the FBI that, here's the key, every one of them is written by an FBI agent who has already been on the podcast. So since I've been doing this for almost five years, I now have about 55 books, including my three -- actually four -- FBI books.
[00:08:10] Jerri: So my FBI Reading Resource includes books that are crime fiction, that are true crime, and that are memoirs. And again, all of them have been written by people who have already been on the podcast. I think it's definitely a big draw for people to join my reader team.
[00:08:30] Matty: I want to talk a little bit in a moment more about community building, but the idea that you had this reading resource of books that your podcast guests had written, I thought was brilliant because you're probably at least skimming these books in advance of your interviews with them. You're already familiar with the books and then I would think it would be almost part of your research process to provide the information that then you can pass on to your listeners as an extra, as opposed to a completely separate effort that you're having to put out to create a deliverable that's appealing to readers. Am I assessing that correctly, about the amount of extra work you have to put in for that resource?
[00:09:12] Jerri: Yeah, it definitely is all integrated in putting the podcast together. And so I really do like to find retired agents who have written books, because I know that they're going to do really well at presenting the cases. I call it an interview show, but I really like the guests to kind of take over and do a case review starting from the beginning of the case to the very end. And sometimes that means that the podcast is more than an hour and a half long. So it's a lot of work for my guests.
[00:09:44] I really expect them to create an outline so there's a nice flow. And I know that if they have a book, that outline's already made, it's called their table of contents. And so it always works out really, really well when I have someone on that's either written a book or is writing a book about their FBI career. And so it makes really good show notes. It makes really good content for the podcast. And then I can also repeat it again in my reader magnet, which is the FBI Reading Resource.
[00:10:22] Matty: That's great. I think anywhere where a creative person can create a piece of content and then use it over and over again is brilliant because sometimes as a listener of a podcast, I'll hear about reader outreach -- reader resources or listener resources -- and it just sounds to me like such a large additional effort that the podcaster is having to go to to create it. And at some point, there are only so many hours of the day and you have to make the best use you can of the resources that you're coming up with.
[00:10:53] Jerri: Yeah, definitely. And then talking about that, when I was talking about how the podcast, which was created to support my writing, kind of took over, and I realized that I didn't have any time to write. I was doing a weekly podcast and that meant every week having a guest to come on, reading their book or reading a newspaper accounts of the cases and really getting a good understanding so I can ask intelligent questions or at least help direct them as they give their case review. If they forgot something, then I'll say, But didn't that person also ... I knew enough to be able to help them with the flow of the interview. But I was putting so much time in that, that I wasn't really writing anymore.
[00:11:43] And so I realized I needed to make a change. And so one of the things I did was instead of it being a weekly podcast, I started doing the podcast every other week. That was about a year and a half ago, and it's so much better now. I do know I made a sacrifice because the podcast is doing very well. It's almost always one of the top 200 true crime podcasts on Apple Podcasts, I'm nearing 4 million downloads total, in just about four years. And so I know it's doing very well, and going from weekly to every other week, I probably lost a little momentum.
[00:12:26] But I want to write. It's about the books, and my third crime novel that's taken me, I don't know, two years, almost three years to write, because in the meantime I've written two nonfiction books. I also moved. I was living in the Philadelphia / South Jersey area and I moved to Raleigh, North Carolina this summer during COVID. And so a lot of things happened. So I hope that I can get back to my first love, which is writing books, and also continue with my second love, which is podcasting.
[00:13:01] Matty: When you had made that switch from weekly to every other week, what did you do to prepare your listeners for that change?
[00:13:10] Jerri: I actually just let them know. I actually took the whole month of October 2018 off. I was going to Paris, and I think the first time I went overseas, I was still podcasting, so I was still putting up my episode when I was out of town. And I decided I wasn't going to do that this time. So at first, I thought it was just going to take a break. I was going to take a three-week break because I was going to be away. And then I thought, you know what? This is a great time to take a break and then let people know that when I come back that I'm going to be doing it every other week.
[00:13:46] And I think it's important as we're talking about using podcasting as content marketing, to say that to your listeners, that whatever you're using as content marketing, if it is a blog or being a YouTuber or podcasting, you've got to be able to balance it where it is not taking away from your main goal.
[00:14:11] And so when I discovered that that was what was happening, I made that change. And I don't know if it's really hurt me. The podcast continues to grow. I think that in the next year or so, it's going to even grow bigger, to even increase, because I'm going to be doing some things marketing-wise with the podcast and my books to do that.
[00:14:34] Like I don't do any advertising. My podcast is the only marketing tool that I use. I've never advertised. I haven't done Facebook. I haven't done Amazon ads. All I've done is the podcast. And luckily, I've had enough interest from my listeners that it's sustained everything. And I did that on purpose because listening to your podcast and Joanna Penn and SELF-PUBLISHING, I really did believe that it would be better for me to complete the trilogy, my the three crime novels, before I spent my money and energy on advertising.
[00:15:15] I'm retired. I'm not doing this as some people are as a way of making a living, and for those people, they need to do what they need to do in order to generate income. I have that luxury of being able to wait. My books will always be new to people who don't know anything about them. And so when I have that third book done, then I'll start looking into advertising on Facebook and Amazon ads, and of course, podcast advertising.
[00:15:44] Matty: Have you given any thought to what kind of podcasts you would pursue for podcast advertising?
[00:15:53] Jerri: Absolutely. It would be true crime podcasts that concentrate on frauds and corruption. And so there are a lot of true crime podcasts, so many out there, that talk about murders and some type of violent crime. My books are all about corruption and fraud. That's what I did in my career. I worked on an economic crime squad. I did frauds and scams and Ponzi schemes, and so that's what my books are about. And so it wouldn't make a lot of sense for me to advertise on a podcast that is all about murder and violent crime. But there's so many podcasts out there now that are just concentrating on corruption and con men and scamming and swindles and things like that. That's where I would definitely advertise.
[00:16:48] Matty: I think that's really the direction that podcasts and content in general is going, to have it more and more niched down. And you are theoretically limiting your potential pool of listeners by niching down, but I think that you really up the commitment that the listeners you find are going to have to your podcast, because they're so specifically interested in that.
[00:17:12] And I know for The Indy Author Podcast, I have framed it up as the writing craft and the publishing voyage, which is pretty broad, and I'm still happy with that because it gives me an opportunity to talk to lots and lots of different kinds of people, but I can imagine over time if I and my listeners start feeling a tendency toward a more niched-down topic, that I might go in that direction, because it is the advice I hear from all the people whose advice I pay attention to and respect, that the more niched-down you can be, the better.
[00:17:43] Jerri: Yeah. And I think I also did that with my non-fiction book, FBI MYTHS AND MISCONCEPTIONS, because I use the podcast as content in the book. So if I talk about, maybe, one of the misconceptions is that FBI profilers chase down serial killers. And so in the book, I'll have quotes from different agents that I've interviewed who work either serial killer cases or are profilers, and have quotes from them explaining that the profiler is a consultant that comes in and helps the investigator find out who could have done this crime, from the evidence that you have here, what can we find in that evidence that's going to help you solve what appears to be unsolvable case? And so the profiler is not the one chasing down a dark alley or in a dark basement. It's still a special agent, usually working with one of the local police departments or state police that are trying to put together these murders that have a commonality.
[00:18:50] And say in that particular chapter, I'll talk about what the truth is. I'll bring in the quotes from agents I've interviewed. And then I bring in a movie or a TV show that covers that same chapter, that same misconception. And then I talk about crime writing and how you have to make creative compromises, and why this particular movie was true and what was a cliche.
[00:19:20] And so I've pulled that together, again, trying to get my true crime podcast to work for me as an avenue for my crime fiction writing. And so if you go to my website, you'll see my logo and then you'll see true crime fiction, because that's what I did. My blog is about crime fiction. My podcast is about true crime and my books are crime fiction, crime novels, that pull from true FBI cases. And so I really have thought a lot about this. And again, not just talking about me, but sharing this with your listeners: if you decide to do a podcast, the number one thing that you need to ask yourself is are the people who will be listening to my podcast the same people who will be reading my books and if the answer is no, then your podcast is not going to be content marketing for your books.
[00:20:22] Matty: Yeah, that's a great observation. And I'm curious, you talked about the fact that your goals evolved over time from just selling books to also being this public service announcement for the FBI. Did you find that the demographics of your listeners changed and how did that impact the business goals that you had for your podcast?
[00:20:45] Jerri: You know, I know who my listeners are, I think that's another thing: who are your listeners, and are they the same people who are going to buy your books? And really my listeners are pretty broad. I have people that just love true crime and we know it's very, very popular. I have people that want to become FBI agents. Or maybe it's too late for them, but they're still very interested in the FBI from that standpoint as a career.
[00:21:16] And then I have people who are crime writers. I've met so many wonderful people in the TV and movie industry. I've met so many newspaper reporters and journalists who reach out to me. And of course I've met many people that are crime writers that are listening to the podcast to get that authenticity and to get that reality and to not have to depend on other TV shows about the FBI or movies to get it right. That's one of the reasons that the nonfiction book has done so well.
[00:21:52] And that basically was me doing marketing directed towards my audience. That book was created for the purpose of getting readers who were in my audience, because I say that book is for anyone who reads, writes, or watches crime fiction, and for those who always wanted to be an FBI agent. That takes care of everyone that is in my audience.
[00:22:23] Matty: That's a nice pool of people to be able to tap into.
[00:22:27] Jerri: Yeah.
[00:22:27] Matty: I really like the commonality of how you're positioning all these components of the things you have to offer, because you're really setting yourself up -- you have set yourself up -- to be the go-to person if anyone in the creative community is thinking FBI and fraud, you're the name that's going to pop up because you've hit that message so consistently across so many different platforms that you're making yourself the go-to person for anything in that area.
[00:22:55] Jerri: I would even expand that to just the FBI overall. Definitely my expertise as an investigator was in fraud, but the last five years of my career in the FBI, I was the spokesperson. So I was the person who went out to the media to talk about the FBI. I wrote those press releases that they read and turned into newspaper articles. I was on camera on 6 ABC, NBC 10, all of those channels that you know so well. I was the spokesperson talking about the FBI.
[00:23:30] And then during that time period, I developed an expertise on all of the violations that the FBI works. And of course now, as a podcaster who's interviewed 214 FBI agents about all the different violations that the FBI works, I really do feel that I have a really vast knowledge of the FBI. And if I don't know something, I know I don't know something, and I can go out and find that information.
[00:24:03] Of course, I don't have the luxury and I wish I did to be able to help crime writers -- individual crime writers -- about the FBI. I can't read everybody's books or their synopsis and then help them with the writing. I can't do that anymore. I did start out help trying to help people, but now I do have the book. I have the podcast where if you write to me and you're saying that you're doing a story about a particular violation, I will be able to give you a list of those podcasts that I've done already that covers that particular topic. I'm more than willing to do that.
[00:24:38] And of course, I think I mentioned to you and I've announced in the last couple of weeks that I am now working as a TV consultant. I'm working on two TV shows. I'm under contract with Ethics Network and I'm under contract with Warner Brothers and Bad Robot, and I'm helping them as they are writing the new TV shows that will be coming out in 2021 and boy that's exciting. Because it is not me writing crime novels and it's not me podcasting, but it certainly is me in the writing craft and being able to have an opportunity to talk about the FBI and crime writing and crime fiction. It's a lot of fun
[00:25:24] Matty: That does sound like a lot of fun.
[00:25:26] Jerri: Yeah. And something that I never even thought of. And so that's another thing you're thinking about using podcasting as content marketing, you have no idea where it could take you,what other avenues in the writing field that you'll be able to get into because you took the time to create a podcast.
[00:25:48] Matty: Of those over 200 people that you've interviewed on your podcast, what percentage of those were people that you approached and what percentage were people who approached you asking to be on your podcast?
[00:26:00] Jerri: 100% were people that I approached.
[00:26:03] Matty: Really? Interesting.
[00:26:05] Jerri: Yeah. And I think that is one of the things that is a little bit different for me. I'll be happy to admit that I contacted you. I do listen to your podcast. And when I heard that you were writing a book that was about using podcasting as content marketing, I felt that I had something to contribute and I thought, I want to reach out and let her know all the stuff that I have knowledge about that I would love to be able to contribute and to share with people. Because I do know that a number of people that write who have podcasts, their podcasts are about writing, about publishing, in the sense that mine is not, I wanted to make sure that I contribute to that.
[00:26:49] I'm thinking like somebody who's writing a book about a character who likes to fish could have a podcast about fishing. I want to expand people's thoughts about how podcasting can be content marketing for their books, that their books are about a certain topic, a certain subject. That's what the podcast could be about. Not necessarily about writing and publishing.
[00:27:16] Matty: Yes. I also want to say that the email you sent me was like the poster child of the way to pitch oneself to a podcast, because it was clear that you understood what The Indy Author Podcast was about, what kind of topics would be of interest. You made it super easy with links and so on to get more information about you.
[00:27:37] As opposed to, for example, I had gotten an email that was not only clearly a form letter, but it was addressed to someone else. And it was clear that they had just copied it in and they had forgotten to update the podcast name. I even recognized the podcasters whose names they mentioned. I was like, You know what? You thought you sent that to so-and-so, and you didn't.
[00:27:59] So I have a section in the book you referenced that will be coming out shortly, I'm not sure exactly when, but THE INDY AUTHOR'S GUIDE TO PODCASTING FOR AUTHORS about if people are pitching to be a guest on a podcast, make it super easy for the podcaster to assess your pitch and make sure it's appropriate for the podcast you're pitching.
[00:28:18] Jerri: I have to say that I don't pitch a lot. I've been on a number of podcasts and most of those situations, people have come to me because I have a message that they want to hear. But if I do see something that I really feel I can contribute, then I do reach out and say, Hey, I know you're talking about this, I'd love to give you some additional content or additional things to think about. I'm so glad that you said yes.
[00:28:43] Matty: Yes. I have to say you made my day, when I got that email, I was like, Oh, look, who's pitching me! This is so exciting!
[00:28:49] Have you found that your podcast is a better lead for your fiction work or your non-fiction work? Do you see a difference there?
[00:28:59] Jerri: I will say that I sell more of my nonfiction, FBI MYTHS AND MISCONCEPTIONS because almost everybody who is listening to my podcast can relate to that book and get something out of that book. Every single chapter still is directed towards people who read, write, or watch crime fiction and anybody who wants to be an agent. So it's a great recruiting book. If you're interested in becoming an agent, and you think you know about the FBI because you watch the FBI CBS show, then reading my book will help you not embarrass yourself at the interview or at Quantico because you're going to get the reality of what it really is like. So yes, that book sells more, but I understand why. I wrote that to market. I wrote that for the purpose of who my listeners are.
[00:29:53] But I do sell my crime fiction through the podcast. And again, I have never done any type of advertising other than the podcast. So yeah, it's, very helpful in that sense, but again, you have to find a niche and you introduce the show by talking about having a niche for your podcast but finding a niche for the listenership that relates to what you're writing about. And I think I've done that.
[00:30:23] So I think that I've been a successful podcaster that has also helped me be a successful self-publisher and I do want to make sure people know that I am self-publishing my books. I'm very proud of that. I did start out traditionally and never even thought about self-publishing and I was able to get a literary agent at one of the best literary agencies in the country, but he didn't sell my book.
[00:30:51] And I know the feedback I was getting: my FBI agent is not like the FBI agents I interviewed. She's extremely flawed. My first book is about her investigating corruption in a strip club and in the strip club industry. And Joseph Wambaugh says that a good crime novel is not about how a cop works on crime, but how the crime works on the cop.
[00:31:18] It's one of my favorite quotes. And so I set her up as being an agent who's working corruption in a strip club industry, who has a very deep pain that comes out as she's working this strip club crime. And so it has sex, it has profanity, it has a lot of things that people aren't used to when they think about FBI agents. And I use my imagination. It's crime fiction, definitely, but because of that, the book at the time didn't sell. And that was before the Me Too movement. I think it would have probably sold now very well, but it didn't sell then.
[00:32:00] And I had so much belief in the book. I knew that I had worked on it for a number of years. I had worked with a developmental editor. I had worked with editors. My literary agent had worked with me on the book and had me change some plot lines, and he even had me change the name of the book. So I knew that it was strong, and we all know that traditional books sometimes are not accepted not because they're not good, but because they're hard to sell.
[00:32:34] And so once I had that book, I believed in it so much that I decided I'm not putting this in a drawer. I'm going to self-publish and it worked out so well that I'm working on my fifth book now.
[00:32:48] Matty: I really like the idea that you have both the fiction and nonfiction, because I think in terms of appealing to the niche in your audience, that is crime fiction writers, it's heartening to see that the person that you're looking to for nonfiction advice knows the requirements of fiction writing as well, because the subject matter experts that I've valued the most are not those that say, No, you can't say that because that would never happen. They would always file that format in triplicate, and then it would be two weeks until they got a response. And instead understand that you have to balance an overenthusiastic commitment to absolute accuracy with the plot and drama needs of crime fiction and can help you work through, Well, okay, you don't want to show them having to fill out the form in triplicate and waiting two weeks to get the response, but here's a way you can work around it that is going to serve both the needs of a reasonable amount of accuracy and making it interesting for the reader.
[00:33:48] So I think when you can illustrate that you've considered all those things yourself for your own work, that's really nice for the people to hear who may be going to your nonfiction book to understand the details.
[00:34:01] Jerri: And even though law enforcement officers are not necessarily your readers, are the people that you're writing these crime books for, you want to be able to have them read it and not look at it and say, Oh, this is a bunch of -- and then take it and throw it against the wall. And so at least if you just try to get much of it right, I think they can understand when you shorten the timeline or when you skip from this level to, next thing you know, you're investigating and next thing you know, you're in a trial.
[00:34:37] I think they're willing to move along in the story with you and not be taken out of the story if you at least acknowledge that three months have passed and now you're in trial instead of trying to make people believe that you investigated the case and within three weeks, you're at the trial. That's not the way it works. So having something in your story that shows that you have a knowledge, that you have an understanding is just so great and it helps to make it believable.
[00:35:10] And it also helps me because you're not putting out information that somebody else is going to pick up on and repeat later on and continue the cliches that are out there, unfortunately.
[00:35:22] Matty: Yeah. The whisper down the lane effect.
[00:35:25] Jerri: I do want to say one more thing that I think we should talk about. And that is, if you do believe that you want to use podcasting as your content marketing for your books, you need to have audio books because the people that you are addressing are listeners. And so if you're trying to now get them to read your books, but you're not offering it in a format that they enjoy, listening, then that's going to be a hard sell too.
[00:35:56] So all of my books, the nonfiction and the two crime novels, are also audio books. And again, I did that on purpose because I knew that most of my listeners were coming from the podcast. And so I needed to make sure that I was giving them the book the way that they enjoy engaging in that type of reading.
[00:36:18] Matty: Did you narrate any of them?
[00:36:20] Jerri: Yes, I narrated the nonfiction book, which was a lot of fun because I decided instead of trying to do it at home and edit it myself, I went to a recording studio, the same recording studio that Lisa Scottoline uses, and so that was kind of fun. I had the same engineer as she does, and I know her -- she actually blurbed my book.
[00:36:44] It's a lot of fun being in the recording studio and reading the book and then having the engineer say, Could you repeat that again? You flubbed over that word, are you sure that's how you pronounce it? And then he would stop and look it up to make sure that if I pronounce the particular actor or movie, that I pronounce it the right way. So we were definitely working as a team. And then he did all of the editing and then presented the audio book to me, so it was a lot of fun.
[00:37:11] It costs as much as having a voice narrator do your own book, but it was definitely worth it for me to be able to get such a highly polished audio book as the outcome, instead of it being me kind of doing my podcast in a book form. So I really enjoyed that.
[00:37:33] Matty: Yeah. I'm trying to narrate the audio book for my first non-fiction book, which is TAKING THE SHORT TACK, and I'm going to be doing an audio book of PODCASTING FOR AUTHORS when it comes out. And I'm doing it in a room that is now hung with shower curtains and buffered with towels and it's sort of a mess. But I do think that people love hearing non-fiction books from the author.
[00:38:01] Fiction is tougher because I would never try to narrate a fiction book because there's the whole acting part of it that I think is just not me and doing accents. One of my books has several Swedish people in it, including some brief blurbs of Swedish dialogue, and bless the heart of the audio book narrator who got to do the book that had that. But I do think people really like that personal connection.
[00:38:24] It comes back to what we were talking about earlier, the sense of community and the personal sense that you can develop through a podcast that blogs, for example, just don't lend themselves to. People get to feel like they know you with the audio book, and I think your suggestion of appealing to that audio-loving crowd with podcasts and audio books is a great one. They like to hear it from the person. And you have a lovely voice, and so you don't have to worry about people not being willing to listen to you for a couple of hours. I think that's great advice.
[00:38:55] Jerri: I really agree with you on that. And that's one of the reasons that I did narrate the nonfiction book. But I'm like you, there was no way, with the different dialogues and things that were going on in my crime novels, that I was going to tackle that. I hired a real actress to do that, and she's done a fabulous job and she'll be doing the voice for the third crime novel when I get that done. Hopefully it will be soon because I'm working on it hard now.
[00:39:24] Matty: And you can clue her in on how to say things like Schuylkill and Bryn Mawr and Paoli, all those place names that are tricky to look up on the internet.
[00:39:34] Jerri: One of the advantages that I never ever thought about for using the podcast as content marketing for my book is advanced readers and advanced reviewers. That has been a wonderful thing that's happened from this. Whenever I have a book that comes out, I'll say on the podcast that for those listeners who are members of my reader team, I'm going to have an opportunity for you to be advanced readers of my books. And if you want to join my advanced reader team, make sure you're a member of my reader team. And I'll put out information about that in the next newsletter.
[00:40:16] I do a monthly newsletter, which is very colorful. It's not just a list of the podcasts for the last month, but books that I've read, podcasts that I've been listening to. I always do a blog about a TV show, and then I do a personal blog. So it's a complete newsletter of all the things that have to do with true crime and crime fiction as they emerge. But I've been able to get some wonderful advanced readers. I have been able to get some wonderful reviewers, every book that I published, as soon as that first day or two, I have at least 20 to 25 reviews to start off.
[00:40:52] And that all comes from me engaging with listeners who love to also read books and who have been very willing to help me with all of my launches, including the very first book. I started the podcast in January of 2016, that book didn't come out until September of 2016. So my very first book had a wonderful launch because of the fact that I had been doing the podcast for nine months and that I was able to use those listeners to help me get it right.
[00:41:25] And of course I used an editor, a professional editor, but I also use my listeners for those little things that sometimes you miss. They're very good at being beta readers.
[00:41:38] I really stress that this is not just an opportunity to get the book in advance and get it for free. It really is to help me make the best book possible. And of course always when people sign up, you're not going to get 100% of the people to follow through, but the people who do agree to do it, a large number of them take the commitment very seriously and get back to me. And so I really appreciate that. I don't say everybody who gets my newsletter is going to get an advanced copy of this because that's not going to be very helpful to the readers at the end of the line when the book was finally published.
[00:42:15] Now everybody who joins my reader team, at the bottom of every newsletter will be the updated copy of the FBI Reading Resource, which is the books about the FBI written by FBI agents. They also always will have the FBI Reality Checklist, which is the 20 cliches about the FBI in books, TV, and movies, which are basically the chapters in my book.
[00:42:41] I also have a book that I created, which was so much fun, with my son that came out this year, which is the FBI WORD SEARCH PUZZLES, which I say is fun for armchair detectives. And even though it's a search word puzzle book, it is chocked with information about the FBI. So if I talk about the FBI during an international espionage, then I have a paragraph talking about what that means and what the FBI does. And then you have all of these words and terminology that come under the FBI's working intelligence that people may not even be aware of. You're going to have to look them up, but at least you're going to be made aware of what these words are.
[00:43:25] And then I have this really fun thing that's in the back of the book, I have FBI terminology and key words that you may never know, like, he's in the wind or he's out of pocket or this person got brick time. I don't know if you know what any of that means, but it's FBI lingo or idioms that we use that, that I also have in the back of the book. So even though it's a puzzle book, it's just chock-full of information about the FBI too.
[00:43:53] That's just a print book, so it doesn't do as well as the other books, because the other books of course are available as print books and hardback and eBooks and audio books. But this one is just a paperback, so it's not doing as well, but I still love it.
[00:44:08] Matty: Well, and you're measuring the success of it, not just by the money it's earning you, but by the goodwill and the entertainment value it's bringing to the people that's just strengthening that community bond that you're trying to build with them.
[00:44:21] Jerri: Yes, absolutely.
[00:44:23] Matty: You have a really great ecosystem going there around your FBI expertise. Very impressive.
[00:44:29] Matty: One thing I wanted to ask is I think that you recently rebranded your logo for the podcast. Is that right? Can you talk a little bit about the rebranding effort?
<See Jerri's podcast logo before and after rebranding below.>
[00:44:40] Jerri: I redesigned the logo because my podcast logo was not an appropriate podcast logo. Podcasts logos need to be clean. They need to be fresh. You need to be able to look at it in a little tiny box and be able to see exactly what that podcast is about either because of what's written there and the font, or because the image that you use really illustrates what the topic of the podcast is. I did that on overload. I had a man in handcuffs. I had the FBI seal. I had a gun. I had the word. It was just way too much. And I knew this. I learned really that my podcast logo was overcrowded and not the best logo at Podcast Movement when it was in Philadelphia. People would look at it and say, Oh, you really should clean this up a bit.
[00:45:38] But I was afraid at the time because the podcast was growing. And like I said, I'm close to 4 million podcasts and I really thought if I change it, then people won't recognize it. And that was just totally untrue. So I actually changed that logo. I mentioned to a friend of mine and I had to give him a shout out, Javier Leiva, who is the host of Pretend Radio, which is a podcast about frauds and crimes and things like that, so that's how we connected.
[00:46:09] And I mentioned it to him. We had a socially distanced coffee meetup, because he lives here in Raleigh, too. And I mentioned to him that I need to clean this up. I know I need to refresh this. And he said, I'll do it. And by the end of the day, he had this new podcast that now, if you look at it, immediately tells you FBI. It's very clean. It's very fresh.
[00:46:32] And I can tell you that I have seen a definite increase in the number of people who are listening to the podcast just in the last week that that's been out. And it's all because they're scrolling through, maybe they even search for an FBI podcast, and mine always shows up first, thank goodness, because I've been doing this for almost five years, but what hits them as that gold FBI -- bam. And I really do believe that just because I changed the podcast, instead of losing listeners, I actually am gaining listeners.
[00:47:08] Matty: Well, Jerri, this has all been such great information and I'm taking lots of notes here about things that I want to consider both for my own podcast and for the PODCASTING FOR AUTHORS book. So please let people know where they can go to find out more about you, your podcast, your books, and your other work.
[00:47:25] Jerri: Yes, I would love for them to visit me at jerriwilliams.com. That's my website. And when you go there, you'll have access to all of the podcasts episodes, my crime fiction, my non-fiction, and my fun blog, which is about the FBI in books, TV, and movies. I'm also on Twitter and Instagram and I have a Facebook page. So if you're really looking for me, I'm easy to find.
[00:47:55] Matty: Great. Thank you so much, Jerri, this has been so helpful.
Thought you'd enjoy seeing Jerri's podcast logo before and after rebranding ...
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Links
Jerri's website - jerriwilliams.com
Matty's book The Indy Author's Guide to Podcasting for Authors
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