Episode 046 - Mistakes Writers Make about Coroners ... and How to Avoid Them with Jennifer Graeser Dornbush
September 29, 2020
Jennifer Graeser Dornbush talks about how growing up around death as the daughter of a small-town medical examiner influenced her professional pursuits. She discusses the difference between coroners and medical examiners (and why a coroner might be a better character choice for mystery writers) and what is and isn’t realistic in fictional depictions of these roles. She also speaks about the attitude toward death that these professionals bring to their work.
Jennifer Graeser Dornbush is a screenwriter, author, and forensic specialist. She attended the Forensic Science Academy in Los Angeles and in the process established a unique kinship with LA’s top CSIs, fingerprint specialists, DNA scientists, and detectives. She is the author of the non-fiction book FORENSIC SPEAK and has consulted on shows such as BULL, CONVICTION, HAWAII FIVE-O, LEVERAGE, SUITS, and RECTIFY. She is also the author of the mystery novel series, The Coroner’s Daughter, and of the book and screenplay GOD BLESS THE BROKEN ROAD. Jennifer is a member of the Writers’ Guild of America, Sisters in Crime, and Mystery Writers of America. She is also an alum of the FBI Citizen’s Academy.
"And especially if there's a crime involved, they take their job extremely seriously because they know how important the examination of the body is to the case and how it can change everything. It can turn everything." --Jennifer Graeser Dornbush
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Matty: Hello and welcome to The Indy Author Podcast. Today my guest is Jennifer Graeser Dornbush. Hey, Jennifer, how are you doing?
[00:00:07] Jennifer: Good morning. Hello. Wherever you are.
[00:00:12] Matty: To give our listeners a little bit of background on you. … Jennifer Graeser Dornbush is a screenwriter, author, and forensic specialist. She grew up around death as the daughter of a small-town medical examiner whose office was in their home.
Jennifer attended the Forensic Science Academy in Los Angeles and in the process established a unique kinship with LA’s top CSIs, fingerprint specialists, DNA scientists and detectives. She is the author of the non-fiction book Forensic Speak and has consulted on shows such as Bull, Conviction, Hawaii Five-O, Leverage, Suits, and Rectify. She is also the author the mystery novel series, The Coroner’s Daughter, and of the book and screenplay God Bless the Broken Road.
Jennifer is a member of the Writers’ Guild of America, Sisters in Crime, and Mystery Writers of America. She is also an alum of the FBI Citizen’s Academy.
[00:01:08] Matty: I invited Jennifer on the podcast to talk about something that's an evolving sub theme on The Indy Author Podcast, which is mistakes writers make and how to avoid them. And so far, we've had Mistakes Writers Make about Firearms and How to Avoid Them with Chris Grall--that was episode 12. In episode 35, we talked about Mistakes Writers Make about Police Procedures and How to Avoid Them--that was a conversation with Bruce Coffin. And then we have one coming up, Mistakes Writers Make about First Responders. But today, not surprisingly. Jennifer is here to talk about Mistakes Writers Make about Coroners and How to Avoid Them.
[00:01:45] So, Jennifer, when I was taking a look at the material that you sent in preparation for the podcast, there was a reference to a great story that I am hoping you'll start out the conversation with about your first investigation of a fatality when you were eight. Tell us that story.
[00:02:03] Jennifer: Doesn't everyone have that experience? I grew up in West Michigan and my father was medical examiner for three counties here and the office was in our home. So I was privy to the death investigation world from a very young age. We just sort of lived and breathed it and we didn't know that other people didn't grow up like this.
[00:02:27] So one of the experiences, I guess maybe one of my first memories of that, or the knowledge that my father had this job, and actually this was a side job because his full-time job was, he was a general practitioner. I remember this one time when there was a twin-engine airplane fatality in our town. We have a small airport in Fremont, Michigan, which is home of the Gerber baby food, and so a lot of executives would fly in and out for that. But we have a small airport and there was a plane crash. I think it was on a Saturday night and it was kind of foggy and not great visibility, I didn't go that evening, but my dad went out with the police and they investigated the crash and did what they could in the limited view because it was so dark and foggy. And then the next morning was Sunday. So we as a family get in the family truck and we go off to church in the morning. And after church my dad says, it's a beautiful, bright, sunny day. I want to just swing by the airport while it's nice out so I can just take one more look at the crash scene.
[00:03:36] And of course we really didn't know what was going on and we just were in the car and we'd go along for the ride. And so we pull up to the crash site, the airfield. And it's basically just a huge field and he says, I'm going to jump out. Why don't you girls come with me? So we jumped out of the car with him and here we are flanking him on either side. And as he's doing a search up and down the field. I think my mom stayed in the car.
[00:04:01] We really didn't know what we were doing. We were just hanging out with dad, but he said, just take a look at the ground. we're looking at the ground and scan the ground. And if you see anything on the ground that doesn't look like nature, like a stone or a leaf or a stick or something that you would find in nature, just let me know.
[00:04:20] So we are searching. Again, we have no idea what we're searching for. And we're looking and we're looking and one of us spots something. We're like, what's that? Is that something? And he bends over and it's this tiny little thing. It's maybe the size of a quarter. And he holds it out in his palm to us and he says, very good. Yes, that right there is a piece of a skull, human skull. And he goes to explain to us that the skull is made of bone and what's the bone made of and how the skull protects the brain like a helmet. And it's all very scientific, a kid-like science lesson, tucks it in his bag and we keep going.
[00:04:59] So we're all excited because we had actually found something important. And a little while later, we say, Oh, what's that? What's that? And he bends down and he picks it up and again, not big, about the size of a quarter. And he says, oh yeah, good job. That is a piece of brain matter. And he went on to explain about the brain, how it's made and what it does and how it functions. And so, yeah, that was my memory of my first death investigation.
[00:05:28] Matty: Were those actually evidence tied to the crash that had occurred?
[00:00:07] Jennifer: Good morning. Hello. Wherever you are.
[00:00:12] Matty: To give our listeners a little bit of background on you. … Jennifer Graeser Dornbush is a screenwriter, author, and forensic specialist. She grew up around death as the daughter of a small-town medical examiner whose office was in their home.
Jennifer attended the Forensic Science Academy in Los Angeles and in the process established a unique kinship with LA’s top CSIs, fingerprint specialists, DNA scientists and detectives. She is the author of the non-fiction book Forensic Speak and has consulted on shows such as Bull, Conviction, Hawaii Five-O, Leverage, Suits, and Rectify. She is also the author the mystery novel series, The Coroner’s Daughter, and of the book and screenplay God Bless the Broken Road.
Jennifer is a member of the Writers’ Guild of America, Sisters in Crime, and Mystery Writers of America. She is also an alum of the FBI Citizen’s Academy.
[00:01:08] Matty: I invited Jennifer on the podcast to talk about something that's an evolving sub theme on The Indy Author Podcast, which is mistakes writers make and how to avoid them. And so far, we've had Mistakes Writers Make about Firearms and How to Avoid Them with Chris Grall--that was episode 12. In episode 35, we talked about Mistakes Writers Make about Police Procedures and How to Avoid Them--that was a conversation with Bruce Coffin. And then we have one coming up, Mistakes Writers Make about First Responders. But today, not surprisingly. Jennifer is here to talk about Mistakes Writers Make about Coroners and How to Avoid Them.
[00:01:45] So, Jennifer, when I was taking a look at the material that you sent in preparation for the podcast, there was a reference to a great story that I am hoping you'll start out the conversation with about your first investigation of a fatality when you were eight. Tell us that story.
[00:02:03] Jennifer: Doesn't everyone have that experience? I grew up in West Michigan and my father was medical examiner for three counties here and the office was in our home. So I was privy to the death investigation world from a very young age. We just sort of lived and breathed it and we didn't know that other people didn't grow up like this.
[00:02:27] So one of the experiences, I guess maybe one of my first memories of that, or the knowledge that my father had this job, and actually this was a side job because his full-time job was, he was a general practitioner. I remember this one time when there was a twin-engine airplane fatality in our town. We have a small airport in Fremont, Michigan, which is home of the Gerber baby food, and so a lot of executives would fly in and out for that. But we have a small airport and there was a plane crash. I think it was on a Saturday night and it was kind of foggy and not great visibility, I didn't go that evening, but my dad went out with the police and they investigated the crash and did what they could in the limited view because it was so dark and foggy. And then the next morning was Sunday. So we as a family get in the family truck and we go off to church in the morning. And after church my dad says, it's a beautiful, bright, sunny day. I want to just swing by the airport while it's nice out so I can just take one more look at the crash scene.
[00:03:36] And of course we really didn't know what was going on and we just were in the car and we'd go along for the ride. And so we pull up to the crash site, the airfield. And it's basically just a huge field and he says, I'm going to jump out. Why don't you girls come with me? So we jumped out of the car with him and here we are flanking him on either side. And as he's doing a search up and down the field. I think my mom stayed in the car.
[00:04:01] We really didn't know what we were doing. We were just hanging out with dad, but he said, just take a look at the ground. we're looking at the ground and scan the ground. And if you see anything on the ground that doesn't look like nature, like a stone or a leaf or a stick or something that you would find in nature, just let me know.
[00:04:20] So we are searching. Again, we have no idea what we're searching for. And we're looking and we're looking and one of us spots something. We're like, what's that? Is that something? And he bends over and it's this tiny little thing. It's maybe the size of a quarter. And he holds it out in his palm to us and he says, very good. Yes, that right there is a piece of a skull, human skull. And he goes to explain to us that the skull is made of bone and what's the bone made of and how the skull protects the brain like a helmet. And it's all very scientific, a kid-like science lesson, tucks it in his bag and we keep going.
[00:04:59] So we're all excited because we had actually found something important. And a little while later, we say, Oh, what's that? What's that? And he bends down and he picks it up and again, not big, about the size of a quarter. And he says, oh yeah, good job. That is a piece of brain matter. And he went on to explain about the brain, how it's made and what it does and how it functions. And so, yeah, that was my memory of my first death investigation.
[00:05:28] Matty: Were those actually evidence tied to the crash that had occurred?
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[00:05:33] Jennifer: Yeah. I think there were three people who died in that crash.
[00:05:38] Matty: Looking back on that with your current experience, do you think that there was any concern about -- this wasn't exactly a crime scene per se -- but was there any concern retrospectively about contaminating the scene?
[00:05:52] Jennifer: No, not really, because yeah, it wasn't a crime scene per se. And so really it was just making sure -- I know this is going to sound like really gross -- but just making sure all the pieces were picked up quite honestly at that point.
[00:06:07] Matty: Very interesting. Now, did your sister ever get interested in pursuing anything along those lines?
[00:06:14] Jennifer: Of the three of us, she's definitely the more kind of science minded. She went into the dentistry field, but, yeah, she definitely kind of got more down and dirty with things than my other sister and I kept it more on the academic level.
[00:06:31] Matty: Dad was doing a good job introducing you to that in a way that made it appealing for you to pursue it in one way or the other.
[00:06:38] Jennifer: Yeah.
[00:06:39] Matty: So I want to start out with sort of a classic question in this scenario, which is the difference between coroners and medical examiners. Can you explain what the difference is there?
[00:06:50] Jennifer: Yes. And that is probably the biggest thing that most people get wrong or don't understand is there is a difference between coroners and medical examiners, and we tend to use the terms very interchangeably, but they're actually not the same. A coroner is a person who is a lot of times appointed or elected, depends on your county, and that person can investigate deaths. They can actually, in some places, say the cause of deaths and the manner of death. This is a little scary because this person could be your plumber. This person could be your school bus driver. It could be an EMT. It could be really anybody who wants the job.
[00:07:35] The medical examiners have to be trained medical doctors, so they have to have a medical degree. A lot of them, not all of them, but a good number of them also went on for forensic pathology, so they're also forensic pathologists. So they have probably 10 to 14 years of medical training under their belt. And so they're the ones who actually are allowed to do autopsies and really get into more of the forensic evidence of the body and what's going on, what actually happened, what's happening inside the body, what the cause of death and manner of death really is. This is really tricky because depending on what state you live in or what county you live in, your rules for death investigation could be very different.
[00:08:17] So for instance, in Michigan, Michigan is a very strict medical examiner state. We don't have coroners in Michigan. We have only medical examiners. So if you died in the state of Michigan and your death requires an autopsy, you're going to get a very good reading on your death, so to speak. It's going to be investigated well.
[00:08:40] Then there's other places where maybe there's a death that occurs and maybe it's a little odd or unusual and it warrants an investigation. A coroner doesn't necessarily have to employ an autopsy -- basically does not have to bring that body to a medical examiner to get an autopsy. That coroner can say, oh yeah, this person died of natural causes, or this person died of suicide. Maybe they didn't, but that person is allowed to say that. So depending on what kind of training they have, whether it's a lot or a little, you can see where that's a little bit of gray area.
[00:09:14] Matty: Are those rules generally statewide or do they vary even within a state?
[00:09:18] Jennifer: They can vary even within a state, county by county. For instance, Los Angeles County is a duo -- Los Angeles County is a coroner and a medical examiner County. So in Los Angeles, they send the corners out to investigate deaths and do a lot the recording that needs to be done. But then they bring the bodies back to the city of LA where there's a team of medical examiners who do the autopsies. And those medical examiners never leave the morgue. They don't investigate deaths. All they do is autopsies. So they have this very comprehensive system where you have both things going on, but not everybody has that.
[00:09:59] Matty: It seems for the purposes of those fiction writers who are listening to this, there might be a benefit, if you want to set a murder mystery, let's say, in an area that would have a coroner but not a medical examiner could be benefits because then you have a potentially less experienced person who's doing the investigation. Maybe the murderer can get away with things they wouldn't otherwise under a medical examiner scenario.
[00:10:22] Jennifer: Yeah, completely. It's great for fiction writing, not so great for us in real life, but it's great for fiction writing.
[00:10:31] Matty: When people are thinking about introducing either a coroner character or just some procedure related to a coroner or a medical examiner experience, is there any key terminology that they should be familiar with to make sure they're doing that accurately?
[00:10:47] Jennifer: Yeah, there's a lot of terminology, actually. That's why one of the things I cover in my book, Forensic Speak, because I have a whole section on what I call "coroner chat," which is certain things that coroners or medical examiners use when investigating deaths.
[00:11:02] I think one of the most interesting is the scale of decomposition. And I get a lot of questions about decomposition because there's a lot of factors that affect the rate of decomposition and what stage it's in. So that's important to know because when your fictional investigator first comes upon the body, knowing what stage of decomposition that body is in is going to tell that investigator quite a bit about when that person died and maybe how that person died and how long that person has been sitting there dead.
[00:11:35] Matty: How about other things that you see on TV, let's say, because this has become such a popular thing to portray in TV shows. What do you see that TV shows often get wrong about a coroner or medical examiner's work?
[00:11:51] Jennifer: Let's see, where should we start? I have to say if we're talking about true crime shows, they tend to really try to get things right. And I really appreciate what they do to put death investigation in a very informative, intellectual light because it is quite a science. It's a pretty deep science actually. So I'm really happy with what I see on like true crime television. They do a fairly good job of forensics and death investigation.
[00:12:26] When you see things on the fictional side, dealing with death investigation, some of my favorites and funnier ones are of course what I call the sex appeal. So like these coroners who are either dressed to the nines or look amazing or their labs are very sexy, right? Their labs are shiny and bright and full of equipment and the newest technology. Even in places like Los Angeles, it's not that pretty.
[00:12:58] Matty: What would be a more realistic portrayal of what equipment or lab those people would have available to them?
[00:13:06] Jennifer: So minimally they would have basically like stainless steel autopsy tables, which are designed specifically for -- this is going to be really gross. I hope that's okay. Don't be eating while you're listening to this. But they have drainage systems, like the tables have drainage systems because you're dealing with bodily fluids and organs. They'll have weights and scales because organs get need to get weighed and measured. We'll have the equipment they need to saw or cut into people, saws and knives and things like that. That's going to be your basic equipment. Sinks, of course. Big sinks for washing things, washing hands, keeping things clean.
[00:13:46] Lighting is a big deal. You need good lighting. So in good labs, you'll have really solid lighting. Sometimes cameras. Cameras are important because you take pictures from the very beginning when the body enters the morgue all the way through the autopsy, or at least a lot of times you do. Not necessarily every single autopsy, but especially if things are a little suspicious or in question, which again is nice gray material for us writers, because maybe things aren't being done as properly as they should be, or something gets missed or maybe the camera malfunctions. There's lots of ways around it. So that's generally what you'll see -- the things that are basic equipment.
[00:14:29] Matty: I guess that the things that might be showing up on fictional TV that wouldn't be realistic are more the machinery or the very sophisticated analysis equipment. Is that the case?
[00:14:41] Jennifer: Yes. That's a great point, Matty, because, all the screens and the computer equipment and all that technology is probably not what you're going to see there. All of that technology happens outside of the morgue. Usually all of that goes into either toxicology, because it gets sent to a lab, because you don't do all of that sort of detailed tissue analysis or blood analysis at the morgue, so all of that would get sent to the toxicology lab or the crime lab, and then fingerprint lab, because sometimes we'll take fingerprints off of corpses. So whatever lab does that processing, then all of that goes to that lab after the autopsy.
[00:15:21] Matty: And is that generally true independent of location, that the autopsy location and what you're describing as the lab work is done separately, or are there some scenarios where that would all be done together?
[00:15:34] Jennifer: I don't know every single lab in the United States, but typically it's all going to be done separately cause it's a whole different team of people. And it depends on resources too. Even Los Angeles, which is a really a big county and has fairly good resources, none of that stuff gets done at the morgue. It's all gets sent out to different labs.
[00:15:55] Matty: What is an example of a piece of analysis equipment that would be realistic to include in a fictional story that is especially intriguing to you about how it works?
[00:16:05] Jennifer: Oh, goodness. That's a good question. Let me think. This actually is a really good segue into one of the things that so often is misrepresented in film and television is that these tissue samples, blood samples, whatever samples you need get sent to the lab, but you get these results like instantly, right? Within five seconds, I've got this DNA result, or I've got this toxicology result. And in reality, it can take a very long time. It can take weeks and weeks to months to get these results back. And I've been in some of these labs and I gotta tell you, there's a reason why we skip to this because they're just not very interesting.
[00:16:52] I've watched these technicians and, seeing how these different machines work. And I guess, unless you're really geeky about that kind of technology, you find it really fascinating, it really is time consuming and sort of grunt work, so to speak. They're processing sample after sample after sample and readout after readout. And it's very meticulous and time consuming and kind of like watching paint dry.
[00:17:16] But there is one machine that's out there that's relatively new, and I got to see a demonstration of this actually at the Writer's Guild one time. It's a rapid DNA machine. And it's not that big. It's, I don't know, maybe two by two, like a box two foot by two foot. Of course, probably in the future it's going to be like, two inches by two inches. I feel like it's one of these like prototypes of the old computer from the sixties, but it's really cool. And it's changing the landscape because they can bring this machine onsite to do DNA tests and it will shoot out that test in two minutes. It's incredible.
[00:18:01] So it's really going to change the scope of investigations, because for instance, you could use it in mass fatalities or mass casualties where you're going to need to identify DNA from different people, or tissue, like this plane crash, right? Basically what's left is -- or bombings -- it's tissue or fragments of bone. And so they'll be able to process this very fast on site.
[00:18:29] Also, in terms of if we have sexual assault cases, you'd be able to process these very quickly and a lot more discreetly than it is now, where now a sexual assault victim has to go into a hospital and there's a whole process and something like only 2% of sexual assault victims actually do that because it's traumatic. And this kind of machine will be able to also help in that way, that it's going to be a less traumatic event for that a victim to have DNA processed. So that's a pretty cool piece of technology that's on the horizon.
[00:19:09] Matty: I don't know if you'd call this technology or not, but the other thing that I was always fascinated with was the study of how insect activity in a body that has been in the woods for a while can indicate things like time of death. Is that something that you've looked into at all?
[00:19:28] Jennifer: I really haven't maybe because I don't love insects, but it's a really fascinating study and maybe at some point I'll be kind of pushed into that direction, but it is very interesting. It's very interesting.
[00:19:43] Matty: I just think it's interesting that the parts that actually are fascinating can be everything from this very high tech DNA analyzer that you just mentioned to something that probably hundreds of years ago an observant rural police detective might've been able to analyze based on his own experience.
[00:20:00] Jennifer: Right.
[00:20:01] Matty: But as a fiction author yourself, how do you get around the fact that a lot of this stuff is sexied up for TV, but as you're saying, a lot of it is grunt work. How do you get around that?
[00:20:12] Jennifer: That's a great question. So this is interesting cause I write both film and TV scripts, but I also write novels, and I think when you're writing novels, I have found anyway, you can really be more real about things, about what the job actually entails and the authenticity of the job. And you can be a little grittier and it doesn't have to be as sexy. But for TV or film, it's a visual medium. And so we watch it because we want that sex appeal. We want that kind of flashy thing. And these actors and actresses, we watch them because we want to see a larger than life persona of what they do. And so I'm kind of okay with that, cause it's a completely different medium.
[00:21:00] I'm not okay if they really dumb it down. But if they're smart and they're trying to be authentic, I'm okay with it, cause I'm watching it for the character. Because I want to see what that character does week to week. And it's for me a little bit less about the case. The case is interesting, and it sort of drives the story, but I want to see what these quirky, fun, interesting characters are doing. And I think that's a huge difference between novels and television, that you can kind of get away with it on TV and film a little bit more. That's what I thought.
[00:21:33] Matty: Who is your favorite coroner or medical examiner characters on TV and in books?
[00:21:40] Jennifer: Hmm, that's a good question. Well, I have to say, because I grew up on Quincy, that sort of sticks with me. I grew up with a real-life Quincy. It was kind of fun because my dad would be watching these episodes of this fictional coroner on television, and it was just kind of this life versus art versus life kind of thing. And I go back, and I watch some of those old episodes and I'm like, wow, they dealt with some pretty progressive things.
[00:22:13] Matty: It's been a couple of years since I've seen an episode of Quincy, but now I'm going to have to go back and see if I could find them.
[00:22:18] Jennifer: Yeah, it's really interesting. So I lean a lot towards that. It's funny, because I don't think you see a lot of these characters very strongly on TV, which is why I'm hoping to create a show with one and bring it back a little.
[00:22:33] Fictionally of course I kind of fell in love with Patricia Cornwell's Scarpetta character. Those were written quite a while ago and I love that she created this strong female, smart as a whip character, even what, 20 or more years ago, because I remember going to these medical examiner conventions with my dad. So it would be like a family trip. And they were always gorgeous, in these great hotels, and we get to stay in these really nice places, and he would go to lectures all day and we'd go hang out at the pool or go sightseeing with my mom.
[00:23:10] But I do remember there'd be banquets and there'd be times when we would get together with the other medical examiner families. After you go year after year, you start to get to know the same people as these same people come to these conferences. And there was this one woman and she probably was about my dad's age and she was a medical examiner, I think in Pennsylvania, somewhere out East. And I just remember thinking, wow, she's so cool.
[00:23:37] She was such an interesting person. She was almost like a role model, she was so smart and so cool. And you'd never think that she cuts up dead bodies for a living. I had that view from such a young age. Then when I got introduced to Kay Scarpetta, I'm like, oh, this is Kay right here, this gal that I knew. And so I just loved it.
[00:23:59] Matty: That's a nice segue from, we've talked a little bit about the technology around coroners and medical examiners, but let's talk a little bit about the characters, because I think that people probably bring assumptions about what a person is going to be like who spends all their time with dead bodies. And which of those assumptions are incorrect and which are maybe correct after all.
[00:24:23] Jennifer: Right, exactly. Whenever you see coroners or medical examiners that are in film or TV, they're sort of dowdy, they're kind of a geeky nerd, you know, they just don't seem all that sharp, a lot of times. It's kind of like they're stuck in a basement with these bodies, like somebody you must be crazy, you know?
[00:24:46] But that definitely has not been my experience at all. And the people that I've known who work in death investigation, whether they're coroners or medical examiners, they are some of the most interesting people I've known. So I'll see if I can just give you a few examples. One was of course, that woman that I met when I was a child through the medical examiner conventions, and she was just funny, she was just a funny person as well. Like her personality was just comical and she loved to laugh.
[00:25:17] And then this is kind of interesting -- and odd, I guess -- but when I went away to college in Chicago and I went to a small liberal arts school, one of the girls that I met there, I think I was a junior and she was a freshmen, but we got to be friends and still are friends. She came from a family of nine kids, and her father was a medical examiner in Milwaukee area, and he might've been the medical examiner on the Jeffrey Dahmer case. And her dad was just like a Teddy bear. Just like really round and happy. That's all I can say. Just such a ball of joy and energy and with these great family, nine kids, and they're all just so wonderful, and that kind of blows every stereotype out of the water. But yeah, here he is working on these serial killer cases. So that was another interesting example.
[00:26:20] And then when I went through the Forensic Science Academy, I met a few people who eventually headed off to work at the LA County coroner's office as coroner assistants, and they were just like the most interesting, lovely, dynamic people. One gal was a knitter and she just was very funny and very interesting. And so, yeah, it kind of blows all those stereotypes out the water.
[00:26:47] Matty: That's nice that writers don't have to limit themselves. Any character can make sense in that role, in a story.
[00:26:55] Do you find that there's any commonality in the attitude that coroners or medical examiners bring to just the concept of death that would be something that a writer should take into account when they're creating a character?
[00:27:10] Jennifer: I do, I do. Hands down, what I have seen and have been told by coroners and medical examiners that I've known, what I've observed, is that they have a huge, huge, propensity for human dignity. So they're very compassionate people and they really do the job because they want people to have that closure about their loved ones. They care very deeply for people. They care very deeply for the dignity of humans.
[00:27:51] And especially if there's a crime involved, they take their job extremely seriously because they know how important the examination of the body is to the case and how it can change everything. It can turn everything. You can find so much evidence on the body to help solve that case. So for the most part I've seen just extreme dedication to the field and a huge bounty of compassion for human dignity.
[00:28:22] Matty: That's great. That's so nicely put.
[00:28:25] If people are interested in learning more about this, what are some resources out there that writers especially should consider making use of?
[00:28:34] Jennifer: Yes. That's a great question. I have a couple in mind. Of course, Forensic Speak, my book. I wrote it for you guys -- I wrote it for writers -- because I couldn't find a book that I really loved that explained all these things in a very concise way. So Forensic Speak. But then also this is a book I've used, it's really dense, it's called, the Medicolegal Investigation of Death. It's huge. It's several inches thick. It's the textbook for forensic pathologists. So it's very detailed in any kind of deaths that you could ever imagine or not imagine. So if you're looking for ideas, it's amazing. So it's very scientific and detailed into how a person died, literally any kind of death -- stuff you couldn't even imagine. So that's helpful if you're trying to be very technical and authentic.
[00:29:34] Matty: I also love the idea of just paging through it for plot ideas.
[00:29:38] Jennifer: Yes. Oh my goodness. Medicolegal Investigation of Death. I think it's Spitz and Fisher. Yeah, it's really great. It's real pictures of real people, so you have to keep that in mind, that it's a little bit gruesome.
[00:29:53] Matty: Well, Jennifer, this has been so interesting, and I know that you're going to be having people going to your forensics book. Where can people go online to find out more about you and your work?
[00:30:06] Jennifer: Just one stop shop, JenniferDornbush.com. And then there's tons of information there. All my books are listed. There's a lot of forensic information. Sign up for my newsletter. I do a monthly newsletter that has a forensic based theme every month.
[00:30:25] Matty: And is your YouTube channel still active?
[00:30:28] Jennifer: Yes. Forensic Fridays is still active and we're going to be doing a lot more with it in the future. So we have lots of plans for lots of fun forensic things.
[00:30:40] Matty: And also let people know about your upcoming or your recently published book.
[00:30:44] Jennifer: Oh, yeah. Hole in the Woods. This is based on a true crime case. It is fiction, but it's based on true crime. And there was a lot of forensics involved in that too, and a lot of death investigation and a coroner, the coroner in there too.
[00:31:00] Matty: It's this part of The Coroner's Daughter series or is this separate?
[00:31:05] Jennifer: Separate. More of a thriller.
[00:31:06] Matty: Okay, great. Thank you so much for sharing all this information. It was great talking to you.
[00:31:11] Jennifer: Thank you for having me, it’s been such a pleasure.
[00:05:38] Matty: Looking back on that with your current experience, do you think that there was any concern about -- this wasn't exactly a crime scene per se -- but was there any concern retrospectively about contaminating the scene?
[00:05:52] Jennifer: No, not really, because yeah, it wasn't a crime scene per se. And so really it was just making sure -- I know this is going to sound like really gross -- but just making sure all the pieces were picked up quite honestly at that point.
[00:06:07] Matty: Very interesting. Now, did your sister ever get interested in pursuing anything along those lines?
[00:06:14] Jennifer: Of the three of us, she's definitely the more kind of science minded. She went into the dentistry field, but, yeah, she definitely kind of got more down and dirty with things than my other sister and I kept it more on the academic level.
[00:06:31] Matty: Dad was doing a good job introducing you to that in a way that made it appealing for you to pursue it in one way or the other.
[00:06:38] Jennifer: Yeah.
[00:06:39] Matty: So I want to start out with sort of a classic question in this scenario, which is the difference between coroners and medical examiners. Can you explain what the difference is there?
[00:06:50] Jennifer: Yes. And that is probably the biggest thing that most people get wrong or don't understand is there is a difference between coroners and medical examiners, and we tend to use the terms very interchangeably, but they're actually not the same. A coroner is a person who is a lot of times appointed or elected, depends on your county, and that person can investigate deaths. They can actually, in some places, say the cause of deaths and the manner of death. This is a little scary because this person could be your plumber. This person could be your school bus driver. It could be an EMT. It could be really anybody who wants the job.
[00:07:35] The medical examiners have to be trained medical doctors, so they have to have a medical degree. A lot of them, not all of them, but a good number of them also went on for forensic pathology, so they're also forensic pathologists. So they have probably 10 to 14 years of medical training under their belt. And so they're the ones who actually are allowed to do autopsies and really get into more of the forensic evidence of the body and what's going on, what actually happened, what's happening inside the body, what the cause of death and manner of death really is. This is really tricky because depending on what state you live in or what county you live in, your rules for death investigation could be very different.
[00:08:17] So for instance, in Michigan, Michigan is a very strict medical examiner state. We don't have coroners in Michigan. We have only medical examiners. So if you died in the state of Michigan and your death requires an autopsy, you're going to get a very good reading on your death, so to speak. It's going to be investigated well.
[00:08:40] Then there's other places where maybe there's a death that occurs and maybe it's a little odd or unusual and it warrants an investigation. A coroner doesn't necessarily have to employ an autopsy -- basically does not have to bring that body to a medical examiner to get an autopsy. That coroner can say, oh yeah, this person died of natural causes, or this person died of suicide. Maybe they didn't, but that person is allowed to say that. So depending on what kind of training they have, whether it's a lot or a little, you can see where that's a little bit of gray area.
[00:09:14] Matty: Are those rules generally statewide or do they vary even within a state?
[00:09:18] Jennifer: They can vary even within a state, county by county. For instance, Los Angeles County is a duo -- Los Angeles County is a coroner and a medical examiner County. So in Los Angeles, they send the corners out to investigate deaths and do a lot the recording that needs to be done. But then they bring the bodies back to the city of LA where there's a team of medical examiners who do the autopsies. And those medical examiners never leave the morgue. They don't investigate deaths. All they do is autopsies. So they have this very comprehensive system where you have both things going on, but not everybody has that.
[00:09:59] Matty: It seems for the purposes of those fiction writers who are listening to this, there might be a benefit, if you want to set a murder mystery, let's say, in an area that would have a coroner but not a medical examiner could be benefits because then you have a potentially less experienced person who's doing the investigation. Maybe the murderer can get away with things they wouldn't otherwise under a medical examiner scenario.
[00:10:22] Jennifer: Yeah, completely. It's great for fiction writing, not so great for us in real life, but it's great for fiction writing.
[00:10:31] Matty: When people are thinking about introducing either a coroner character or just some procedure related to a coroner or a medical examiner experience, is there any key terminology that they should be familiar with to make sure they're doing that accurately?
[00:10:47] Jennifer: Yeah, there's a lot of terminology, actually. That's why one of the things I cover in my book, Forensic Speak, because I have a whole section on what I call "coroner chat," which is certain things that coroners or medical examiners use when investigating deaths.
[00:11:02] I think one of the most interesting is the scale of decomposition. And I get a lot of questions about decomposition because there's a lot of factors that affect the rate of decomposition and what stage it's in. So that's important to know because when your fictional investigator first comes upon the body, knowing what stage of decomposition that body is in is going to tell that investigator quite a bit about when that person died and maybe how that person died and how long that person has been sitting there dead.
[00:11:35] Matty: How about other things that you see on TV, let's say, because this has become such a popular thing to portray in TV shows. What do you see that TV shows often get wrong about a coroner or medical examiner's work?
[00:11:51] Jennifer: Let's see, where should we start? I have to say if we're talking about true crime shows, they tend to really try to get things right. And I really appreciate what they do to put death investigation in a very informative, intellectual light because it is quite a science. It's a pretty deep science actually. So I'm really happy with what I see on like true crime television. They do a fairly good job of forensics and death investigation.
[00:12:26] When you see things on the fictional side, dealing with death investigation, some of my favorites and funnier ones are of course what I call the sex appeal. So like these coroners who are either dressed to the nines or look amazing or their labs are very sexy, right? Their labs are shiny and bright and full of equipment and the newest technology. Even in places like Los Angeles, it's not that pretty.
[00:12:58] Matty: What would be a more realistic portrayal of what equipment or lab those people would have available to them?
[00:13:06] Jennifer: So minimally they would have basically like stainless steel autopsy tables, which are designed specifically for -- this is going to be really gross. I hope that's okay. Don't be eating while you're listening to this. But they have drainage systems, like the tables have drainage systems because you're dealing with bodily fluids and organs. They'll have weights and scales because organs get need to get weighed and measured. We'll have the equipment they need to saw or cut into people, saws and knives and things like that. That's going to be your basic equipment. Sinks, of course. Big sinks for washing things, washing hands, keeping things clean.
[00:13:46] Lighting is a big deal. You need good lighting. So in good labs, you'll have really solid lighting. Sometimes cameras. Cameras are important because you take pictures from the very beginning when the body enters the morgue all the way through the autopsy, or at least a lot of times you do. Not necessarily every single autopsy, but especially if things are a little suspicious or in question, which again is nice gray material for us writers, because maybe things aren't being done as properly as they should be, or something gets missed or maybe the camera malfunctions. There's lots of ways around it. So that's generally what you'll see -- the things that are basic equipment.
[00:14:29] Matty: I guess that the things that might be showing up on fictional TV that wouldn't be realistic are more the machinery or the very sophisticated analysis equipment. Is that the case?
[00:14:41] Jennifer: Yes. That's a great point, Matty, because, all the screens and the computer equipment and all that technology is probably not what you're going to see there. All of that technology happens outside of the morgue. Usually all of that goes into either toxicology, because it gets sent to a lab, because you don't do all of that sort of detailed tissue analysis or blood analysis at the morgue, so all of that would get sent to the toxicology lab or the crime lab, and then fingerprint lab, because sometimes we'll take fingerprints off of corpses. So whatever lab does that processing, then all of that goes to that lab after the autopsy.
[00:15:21] Matty: And is that generally true independent of location, that the autopsy location and what you're describing as the lab work is done separately, or are there some scenarios where that would all be done together?
[00:15:34] Jennifer: I don't know every single lab in the United States, but typically it's all going to be done separately cause it's a whole different team of people. And it depends on resources too. Even Los Angeles, which is a really a big county and has fairly good resources, none of that stuff gets done at the morgue. It's all gets sent out to different labs.
[00:15:55] Matty: What is an example of a piece of analysis equipment that would be realistic to include in a fictional story that is especially intriguing to you about how it works?
[00:16:05] Jennifer: Oh, goodness. That's a good question. Let me think. This actually is a really good segue into one of the things that so often is misrepresented in film and television is that these tissue samples, blood samples, whatever samples you need get sent to the lab, but you get these results like instantly, right? Within five seconds, I've got this DNA result, or I've got this toxicology result. And in reality, it can take a very long time. It can take weeks and weeks to months to get these results back. And I've been in some of these labs and I gotta tell you, there's a reason why we skip to this because they're just not very interesting.
[00:16:52] I've watched these technicians and, seeing how these different machines work. And I guess, unless you're really geeky about that kind of technology, you find it really fascinating, it really is time consuming and sort of grunt work, so to speak. They're processing sample after sample after sample and readout after readout. And it's very meticulous and time consuming and kind of like watching paint dry.
[00:17:16] But there is one machine that's out there that's relatively new, and I got to see a demonstration of this actually at the Writer's Guild one time. It's a rapid DNA machine. And it's not that big. It's, I don't know, maybe two by two, like a box two foot by two foot. Of course, probably in the future it's going to be like, two inches by two inches. I feel like it's one of these like prototypes of the old computer from the sixties, but it's really cool. And it's changing the landscape because they can bring this machine onsite to do DNA tests and it will shoot out that test in two minutes. It's incredible.
[00:18:01] So it's really going to change the scope of investigations, because for instance, you could use it in mass fatalities or mass casualties where you're going to need to identify DNA from different people, or tissue, like this plane crash, right? Basically what's left is -- or bombings -- it's tissue or fragments of bone. And so they'll be able to process this very fast on site.
[00:18:29] Also, in terms of if we have sexual assault cases, you'd be able to process these very quickly and a lot more discreetly than it is now, where now a sexual assault victim has to go into a hospital and there's a whole process and something like only 2% of sexual assault victims actually do that because it's traumatic. And this kind of machine will be able to also help in that way, that it's going to be a less traumatic event for that a victim to have DNA processed. So that's a pretty cool piece of technology that's on the horizon.
[00:19:09] Matty: I don't know if you'd call this technology or not, but the other thing that I was always fascinated with was the study of how insect activity in a body that has been in the woods for a while can indicate things like time of death. Is that something that you've looked into at all?
[00:19:28] Jennifer: I really haven't maybe because I don't love insects, but it's a really fascinating study and maybe at some point I'll be kind of pushed into that direction, but it is very interesting. It's very interesting.
[00:19:43] Matty: I just think it's interesting that the parts that actually are fascinating can be everything from this very high tech DNA analyzer that you just mentioned to something that probably hundreds of years ago an observant rural police detective might've been able to analyze based on his own experience.
[00:20:00] Jennifer: Right.
[00:20:01] Matty: But as a fiction author yourself, how do you get around the fact that a lot of this stuff is sexied up for TV, but as you're saying, a lot of it is grunt work. How do you get around that?
[00:20:12] Jennifer: That's a great question. So this is interesting cause I write both film and TV scripts, but I also write novels, and I think when you're writing novels, I have found anyway, you can really be more real about things, about what the job actually entails and the authenticity of the job. And you can be a little grittier and it doesn't have to be as sexy. But for TV or film, it's a visual medium. And so we watch it because we want that sex appeal. We want that kind of flashy thing. And these actors and actresses, we watch them because we want to see a larger than life persona of what they do. And so I'm kind of okay with that, cause it's a completely different medium.
[00:21:00] I'm not okay if they really dumb it down. But if they're smart and they're trying to be authentic, I'm okay with it, cause I'm watching it for the character. Because I want to see what that character does week to week. And it's for me a little bit less about the case. The case is interesting, and it sort of drives the story, but I want to see what these quirky, fun, interesting characters are doing. And I think that's a huge difference between novels and television, that you can kind of get away with it on TV and film a little bit more. That's what I thought.
[00:21:33] Matty: Who is your favorite coroner or medical examiner characters on TV and in books?
[00:21:40] Jennifer: Hmm, that's a good question. Well, I have to say, because I grew up on Quincy, that sort of sticks with me. I grew up with a real-life Quincy. It was kind of fun because my dad would be watching these episodes of this fictional coroner on television, and it was just kind of this life versus art versus life kind of thing. And I go back, and I watch some of those old episodes and I'm like, wow, they dealt with some pretty progressive things.
[00:22:13] Matty: It's been a couple of years since I've seen an episode of Quincy, but now I'm going to have to go back and see if I could find them.
[00:22:18] Jennifer: Yeah, it's really interesting. So I lean a lot towards that. It's funny, because I don't think you see a lot of these characters very strongly on TV, which is why I'm hoping to create a show with one and bring it back a little.
[00:22:33] Fictionally of course I kind of fell in love with Patricia Cornwell's Scarpetta character. Those were written quite a while ago and I love that she created this strong female, smart as a whip character, even what, 20 or more years ago, because I remember going to these medical examiner conventions with my dad. So it would be like a family trip. And they were always gorgeous, in these great hotels, and we get to stay in these really nice places, and he would go to lectures all day and we'd go hang out at the pool or go sightseeing with my mom.
[00:23:10] But I do remember there'd be banquets and there'd be times when we would get together with the other medical examiner families. After you go year after year, you start to get to know the same people as these same people come to these conferences. And there was this one woman and she probably was about my dad's age and she was a medical examiner, I think in Pennsylvania, somewhere out East. And I just remember thinking, wow, she's so cool.
[00:23:37] She was such an interesting person. She was almost like a role model, she was so smart and so cool. And you'd never think that she cuts up dead bodies for a living. I had that view from such a young age. Then when I got introduced to Kay Scarpetta, I'm like, oh, this is Kay right here, this gal that I knew. And so I just loved it.
[00:23:59] Matty: That's a nice segue from, we've talked a little bit about the technology around coroners and medical examiners, but let's talk a little bit about the characters, because I think that people probably bring assumptions about what a person is going to be like who spends all their time with dead bodies. And which of those assumptions are incorrect and which are maybe correct after all.
[00:24:23] Jennifer: Right, exactly. Whenever you see coroners or medical examiners that are in film or TV, they're sort of dowdy, they're kind of a geeky nerd, you know, they just don't seem all that sharp, a lot of times. It's kind of like they're stuck in a basement with these bodies, like somebody you must be crazy, you know?
[00:24:46] But that definitely has not been my experience at all. And the people that I've known who work in death investigation, whether they're coroners or medical examiners, they are some of the most interesting people I've known. So I'll see if I can just give you a few examples. One was of course, that woman that I met when I was a child through the medical examiner conventions, and she was just funny, she was just a funny person as well. Like her personality was just comical and she loved to laugh.
[00:25:17] And then this is kind of interesting -- and odd, I guess -- but when I went away to college in Chicago and I went to a small liberal arts school, one of the girls that I met there, I think I was a junior and she was a freshmen, but we got to be friends and still are friends. She came from a family of nine kids, and her father was a medical examiner in Milwaukee area, and he might've been the medical examiner on the Jeffrey Dahmer case. And her dad was just like a Teddy bear. Just like really round and happy. That's all I can say. Just such a ball of joy and energy and with these great family, nine kids, and they're all just so wonderful, and that kind of blows every stereotype out of the water. But yeah, here he is working on these serial killer cases. So that was another interesting example.
[00:26:20] And then when I went through the Forensic Science Academy, I met a few people who eventually headed off to work at the LA County coroner's office as coroner assistants, and they were just like the most interesting, lovely, dynamic people. One gal was a knitter and she just was very funny and very interesting. And so, yeah, it kind of blows all those stereotypes out the water.
[00:26:47] Matty: That's nice that writers don't have to limit themselves. Any character can make sense in that role, in a story.
[00:26:55] Do you find that there's any commonality in the attitude that coroners or medical examiners bring to just the concept of death that would be something that a writer should take into account when they're creating a character?
[00:27:10] Jennifer: I do, I do. Hands down, what I have seen and have been told by coroners and medical examiners that I've known, what I've observed, is that they have a huge, huge, propensity for human dignity. So they're very compassionate people and they really do the job because they want people to have that closure about their loved ones. They care very deeply for people. They care very deeply for the dignity of humans.
[00:27:51] And especially if there's a crime involved, they take their job extremely seriously because they know how important the examination of the body is to the case and how it can change everything. It can turn everything. You can find so much evidence on the body to help solve that case. So for the most part I've seen just extreme dedication to the field and a huge bounty of compassion for human dignity.
[00:28:22] Matty: That's great. That's so nicely put.
[00:28:25] If people are interested in learning more about this, what are some resources out there that writers especially should consider making use of?
[00:28:34] Jennifer: Yes. That's a great question. I have a couple in mind. Of course, Forensic Speak, my book. I wrote it for you guys -- I wrote it for writers -- because I couldn't find a book that I really loved that explained all these things in a very concise way. So Forensic Speak. But then also this is a book I've used, it's really dense, it's called, the Medicolegal Investigation of Death. It's huge. It's several inches thick. It's the textbook for forensic pathologists. So it's very detailed in any kind of deaths that you could ever imagine or not imagine. So if you're looking for ideas, it's amazing. So it's very scientific and detailed into how a person died, literally any kind of death -- stuff you couldn't even imagine. So that's helpful if you're trying to be very technical and authentic.
[00:29:34] Matty: I also love the idea of just paging through it for plot ideas.
[00:29:38] Jennifer: Yes. Oh my goodness. Medicolegal Investigation of Death. I think it's Spitz and Fisher. Yeah, it's really great. It's real pictures of real people, so you have to keep that in mind, that it's a little bit gruesome.
[00:29:53] Matty: Well, Jennifer, this has been so interesting, and I know that you're going to be having people going to your forensics book. Where can people go online to find out more about you and your work?
[00:30:06] Jennifer: Just one stop shop, JenniferDornbush.com. And then there's tons of information there. All my books are listed. There's a lot of forensic information. Sign up for my newsletter. I do a monthly newsletter that has a forensic based theme every month.
[00:30:25] Matty: And is your YouTube channel still active?
[00:30:28] Jennifer: Yes. Forensic Fridays is still active and we're going to be doing a lot more with it in the future. So we have lots of plans for lots of fun forensic things.
[00:30:40] Matty: And also let people know about your upcoming or your recently published book.
[00:30:44] Jennifer: Oh, yeah. Hole in the Woods. This is based on a true crime case. It is fiction, but it's based on true crime. And there was a lot of forensics involved in that too, and a lot of death investigation and a coroner, the coroner in there too.
[00:31:00] Matty: It's this part of The Coroner's Daughter series or is this separate?
[00:31:05] Jennifer: Separate. More of a thriller.
[00:31:06] Matty: Okay, great. Thank you so much for sharing all this information. It was great talking to you.
[00:31:11] Jennifer: Thank you for having me, it’s been such a pleasure.
Links
https://www.instagram.com/jgdornbush/
https://twitter.com/JGDornbush
https://www.facebook.com/JGDornbush
YouTube Forensic Fridays
Medicolegal Investigation of Death
Episode 012 - Top Firearms Mistakes Writers Make … and How to Avoid Them with Chris Grall
Episode 035 - Mistakes Writers Make about Police Procedure … and How to Avoid Them with Bruce Robert Coffin
https://twitter.com/JGDornbush
https://www.facebook.com/JGDornbush
YouTube Forensic Fridays
Medicolegal Investigation of Death
Episode 012 - Top Firearms Mistakes Writers Make … and How to Avoid Them with Chris Grall
Episode 035 - Mistakes Writers Make about Police Procedure … and How to Avoid Them with Bruce Robert Coffin
