Episode 091 - Creating Stellar Side Characters with Sacha Black
August 3, 2021
Rebel author Sacha Black discusses SIDE CHARACTERS--what are side characters and what distinguishes them from the protagonist and antagonist? Is a sidekick different from a side character? How can side characters supporting the story or the portrayal of other characters? And what are good and bad reasons to kill off a side character that readers are or will be invested in?
Sacha Black is a bestselling author, rebel podcaster, and professional speaker. She has five obsessions; words, expensive shoes, conspiracy theories, self-improvement, and breaking the rules. Sacha writes books about people with magical powers and other books about the art of writing, including THE ANATOMY OF PROSE: 12 STEPS TO SENSATIONAL SENTENCES, 10 STEPS TO HERO: HOW TO CRAFT A KICKASS PROTAGONIST, and 13 STEPS TO EVIL: HOW TO CRAFT SUPERBAD VILLAINS. She lives in Cambridgeshire, England, with her wife and genius, giant of a son.
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Matty: Hello and welcome to The Indy Author Podcast, today my guest is Sacha Black.
[00:00:04] Hey, Sacha, how are you doing?
[00:00:07] Sacha: Thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to be here.
[00:00:10] Matty: It is lovely to have you here. To give our listeners a little bit of background on you, Sacha Black is the best-selling author, rebel podcaster, and professional speaker. She has five obsessions: words, expensive shoes, conspiracy theories, self-improvement, and breaking the rules. Sacha writes books about people with magical powers and other books about the art of writing, including THE ANATOMY OF PROSE: 12 Steps to Sensational Sentences, 10 STEPS TO HERO: How to Craft a Kick-ass Protagonist, 13 STEPS TO EVIL: How to Craft Super Bad Villains, and another we'll be talking about in a moment. She lives in Cambridgeshire, England with her wife and genius giant of a son.
[00:00:49] And today we're going to be talking about the topic of Sacha's latest book for authors, which is 8 STEPS TO SIDE CHARACTERS: How to Craft Supporting Roles with Intention, Purpose, and Power.
[00:01:00] And so, Sacha to start out our conversation, I always like to ask people, what did they see in the writing community, in their fellow writers'
[00:01:09] work or in their own work that led you to think that 8 STEPS FOR SIDE CHARACTERS was going to be a good offering.
[00:01:16] Sacha: So, I was asked to write this book and that's why I did it. I started out writing villains and that was the book that I wanted to write because I was already cross that there weren't lots of really good villains or at least in the genres I had been reading, I was struggling to find them. After that, I'd built up a small audience. And so I just said, 'Hey, Is there anything else you'd like me to write about?'
[00:01:37] And they said heroes, which was obviously the perfect opposite to what I just written, and then I wanted to write a book and I've been doing a lot of editing. And so I wrote THE ANATOMY OF PROSE, which was basically a culmination of all of the lessons that I had personally learned about prose sentence level construction, story and characterization at the sentence level.
[00:02:00] And then after that, I threw it back to my readers and I just said, 'Look, is there a particular topic you want me to write about?' And overwhelmingly, it was side characters and the other one was description. So that's what I'll be working on next. But yeah, overwhelmingly it was side characters.
[00:02:18] And the interesting thing is I always do a ton of research before I start writing. I have a process of like input, input, input. And then I output, output, output. So after I've percolated and drawn all these threads together and decided like what my view on that topic is. And so that's how each of my books has started. ...
[00:00:04] Hey, Sacha, how are you doing?
[00:00:07] Sacha: Thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to be here.
[00:00:10] Matty: It is lovely to have you here. To give our listeners a little bit of background on you, Sacha Black is the best-selling author, rebel podcaster, and professional speaker. She has five obsessions: words, expensive shoes, conspiracy theories, self-improvement, and breaking the rules. Sacha writes books about people with magical powers and other books about the art of writing, including THE ANATOMY OF PROSE: 12 Steps to Sensational Sentences, 10 STEPS TO HERO: How to Craft a Kick-ass Protagonist, 13 STEPS TO EVIL: How to Craft Super Bad Villains, and another we'll be talking about in a moment. She lives in Cambridgeshire, England with her wife and genius giant of a son.
[00:00:49] And today we're going to be talking about the topic of Sacha's latest book for authors, which is 8 STEPS TO SIDE CHARACTERS: How to Craft Supporting Roles with Intention, Purpose, and Power.
[00:01:00] And so, Sacha to start out our conversation, I always like to ask people, what did they see in the writing community, in their fellow writers'
[00:01:09] work or in their own work that led you to think that 8 STEPS FOR SIDE CHARACTERS was going to be a good offering.
[00:01:16] Sacha: So, I was asked to write this book and that's why I did it. I started out writing villains and that was the book that I wanted to write because I was already cross that there weren't lots of really good villains or at least in the genres I had been reading, I was struggling to find them. After that, I'd built up a small audience. And so I just said, 'Hey, Is there anything else you'd like me to write about?'
[00:01:37] And they said heroes, which was obviously the perfect opposite to what I just written, and then I wanted to write a book and I've been doing a lot of editing. And so I wrote THE ANATOMY OF PROSE, which was basically a culmination of all of the lessons that I had personally learned about prose sentence level construction, story and characterization at the sentence level.
[00:02:00] And then after that, I threw it back to my readers and I just said, 'Look, is there a particular topic you want me to write about?' And overwhelmingly, it was side characters and the other one was description. So that's what I'll be working on next. But yeah, overwhelmingly it was side characters.
[00:02:18] And the interesting thing is I always do a ton of research before I start writing. I have a process of like input, input, input. And then I output, output, output. So after I've percolated and drawn all these threads together and decided like what my view on that topic is. And so that's how each of my books has started. ...
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[00:02:41] And with side characters specifically, there was like nothing on the topic. So I found a few books on characters as a whole, but there was very little on side character specifically. There might be the odd paragraph or maybe half a chapter in a book on it, but nothing that actually focused on them specifically.
[00:03:02] So yeah, this book was like a combination of pulling a ton of things from different areas. And then me thinking about it and analyzing TV shows and analyzing books and films.
[00:03:16] Matty: It surprises me that coincidentally the overwhelming vote with side characters. Do you know if there was something going on, like something in popular culture that triggered that or some discussion you'd been having with your followers that triggered that?
[00:03:29] Sacha: I don't think so. I think it's purely because the side characters were who were left. I'd done villains, I'd done heroes and therefore side characters were left.
[00:03:38] And I think it's one of these things that one person will comment and then when one person sees that, somebody else is like, oh, actually, yeah, I'd really appreciate that. And then it spirals. So there were, like I say, there were two camps, and it was about 45-55 in terms of the votes. So it was very close in terms of the people who wanted a description versus those that wanted side characters. But because side characters just pipped it, and also because I just finished writing prose and I felt like doing a book on description, there were going to be similar elements to the prose book. That's why I went with side characters, just keeping my sanity.
[00:04:13] Matty: Have a little variety.
[00:04:16] Sacha: Exactly.
[00:04:17] Matty: I think it makes sense to start out with a definition of what you mean by side characters.
[00:04:23] Sacha: So side characters are essentially any character that isn't your protagonist or your villain. So lots of people will say that a villain is a side character and in essence, they are kind of a side character, but I like to see the villain as somebody different in their entirety, because there's so much you can do with them, and they are so vital to the story.
[00:04:47] So for me and my personal definition, the protagonist is who the story is about. Sometimes you have a hero as well in there, but generally speaking, we're talking about who the story is about. The antagonist or the villain is the biggest conflicting, opposing force. And then side characters are everything else.
[00:05:06] I like to think of side characters as the feeders. I use an analogy in the book where I talk about story or your book as a body. And if your story as a whole is a body, then your protagonist is the heart. Your theme is the soul of your story or if you're a story body, and your side characters are arteries and veins that feed into the heart, they feed into the protagonist. That can be, in terms of the arteries that they're feeding oxygen in and the veins are taking the bad stuff out. They're taking the carbon dioxide out or putting the carbon dioxide back into the heart to go to the lungs. This isn't a biology lesson, anyway, but the point is your side characters can either be that positive or that negative. They can be a conflict or a helpful side character.
[00:05:53] So I'm not sure that I'm giving you a succinct definition, but anything that isn't the protagonist or in my opinion the villain is technically a side character.
[00:06:06] Matty: So I have to ask, what in the body analogy is the villain?
[00:06:11] Sacha: I knew you were going to ask me that and I didn't put that into the book.
[00:06:15] I think probably viruses, bacteria, anything that is unhealthy for the body is probably what I would say. But I reserve the right to amend that if I think of something better.
[00:06:29] Matty: That is a cool analogy though. As listeners will know, I love using nautical metaphors for the writing and publishing craft, but there are all sorts of interesting aspects to plumb using the body as well. I like that.
[00:06:42] So a sidekick, is that different than a side character or a type of side character? What is the sidekick?
[00:06:49] Sacha: So in technical terms, a sidekick is usually someone of the same sex or gender as the protagonist. So like Batman and Robin, that's a sidekick. In BREAKING BAD, in an essence that would be Walter White and Jesse. Sidekicks I tend to see as more like a superhero rather than being across all genres. And I see side characters is a bit more holistic. They include more types of side character, cross genders, you know, all the genders in between. So yeah, I personally see sidekick more of that comic hero, Marvel, same gendered. Thelma and Louise, they're sidekicks for each other. Whereas side characters are a catch-all for all characters that aren't heroes and villains.
[00:07:42] Matty: Thelma and Louise is a really interesting example because would you assess them as a pair as the protagonist? Or do you see that movie a different way?
[00:07:52] Sacha: I would have to go back and watch it because it's been too long. I tell you what I will do. I will go back and watch it and then I'll drop you an email and be like, this is what I think now. Because I think usually if you drill in deep enough, there is one character who it's about rather than but yeah, I don't know. I would have to go back and watch it again.
[00:08:08] Matty: So that's everybody's assignment, all the listeners is go watch THELMA AND LOUISE and then weigh in on if you think one or both of them are the protagonist. So, maybe expanding on the idea of the different characters as parts of the body, I'm imagining that side characters, there are two roles that ideally they're playing, they're either furthering the story or they're furthering the development of the other characters. Do you agree with that and pick either one and talk about how they might do that, if you think that's a function they perform.
[00:08:37] Sacha: Yeah, so side character, they can only do one of two things: they can either help the protagonist or they can hinder them. There's not really anything in between. I mean, it depends on the level at which the side character is.
[00:08:50] So you have cameos who are these like flash in the pan, very fleeting, brief characters who are barely in the story at all. Maybe they're just a guard or a faceless girl with a teddy. Then you have minor characters who were they're a bit more often, slightly more transactional interactions, maybe they're a barman that serves the protagonist a few times in the story. Maybe they bring information. But they're not really impacting or affecting the story. And then you have the major side characters. So mostly, that's what I focus on. And so in those terms, those characters are really only doing one of two things. They're either furthering the protagonist story or they're hindering it.
[00:09:31] But they serve as lots of different things, so they can reveal information. They can represent different aspects of the theme. And in that different representation of the theme, it can be a positive representation or a negative representation. They can create conflict. They obviously help to create dialogue, which creates pace. They can pull the protagonists towards their goal, or they can serve as like a moralistic, like reminder as to what the protagonist doesn't want to do, by this other person's actions. They can narrate even. That is a literary device, they can narrate the story as well. They can also expose bits of the story that the protagonists may or may not ... like if you write in first person or like third person limited and it's only that one limited viewpoint, then side characters can also expose other bits of story or information. Obviously, you have to be careful with the levels of exposition, but they can serve as tools to help you do that.
[00:10:33] So in amongst the either help or hindrance, they have lots of different things that they can do. But broadly speaking, they are either pulling or pushing the protagonist one way or the other.
[00:10:45] Matty: One of the things that I really enjoyed about your book, and I was lucky enough to get an advanced copy, is the movie, book, and TV references that you use. So, in that rundown of various functions that a side character or can perform, are there any call-outs that you can say, oh, in the narrator role, here's a good example or in the cameo, here's a good example of that.
[00:11:07] Sacha: Oh, okay. So for cameo minor and major. Okay. Those I have in my head. If you're asking about the other ones, I'll have to come back to you. Okay. Say for cameos, really good example is like Stan Lee. So, Stan Lee was the comic book author behind a lot of the Marvel movies, and in every single movie he appears for like between 10 and 30 seconds. In one of them, I think it was one of the Hulk ones, he is driving a truck. In another one he's a shop assistant, and in another one, he's the foreman on a jury. So like he literally stands up and says one line.
[00:11:40] Another example, if you've seen THE MATRIX, this is like my favorite example of cameo ever. But have you seen THE MATRIX?
[00:11:47] Matty: I have not, I'm embarrassed to say. That's my other assignment is to go watch THE MATRIX.
[00:11:52] Sacha: Oh, my goodness, you have to watch THE MATRIX, it's fantastic. Blew my mind as a 15-year-old. Okay, so THE MATRIX is essentially this artificial intelligence world created by artificial intelligence who essentially plug humans into their AI reality and use our bodies for energy. And so our minds don't realize that we're in the Matrix. Main character gets pulled out, then goes back inside for training because it's only inside the Matrix where he can beat the AI that created it.
[00:12:23] So he's training and he's in this downtown New York street, very bland and everybody's in black and white and he walks past this woman. So everybody's in black and white and he walks past this woman in red and it obviously draws his attention, and then when he looks back, the woman is gone. Andin the film, the point is that an agent has taken over this person's body and agents can be anywhere. The point in terms of a cameo is that is the only time you see her in a two-hour film. She's there for like three seconds. She says nothing. And the only thing that you remember about her is that she was rather attractive and wearing a red dress.
[00:13:02] And that's kind of the point. You know, with minor characters, these are people like Mr. Filch in the HARRY POTTER series, and I apologize, I know lots of people are not happy with JK Rowling, but it's such a well-known reference. It's very hard to find things that people don't know.
[00:13:18] Mr. Filch and his cat, they don't really do an awful lot in the stories. They are there, they sometimes cause a few problems, the cat in particular causes a couple of problems in the books and the films. They don't have a change arc. They're not deeply connected with Harry or any of the other characters and you could essentially take him out of the book and the story wouldn't change in any way.
[00:13:44] Wheezy from a TOY STORY is another example. Possibly Tiny Tim from A CHRISTMAS CAROL, although arguably if you took him out that might affect the story.
[00:13:54] Matty: It's almost mechanism, like a plot mechanism. Whereas Tiny Tim is clearly a plot mechanism for that story, but not really a cameo because it sounds like the briefness of the appearance is key to the cameo concept.
[00:14:08] Sacha: Exactly. But Tiny Tim’s also not a major character because he doesn't get enough page time or enough depth. There are these different ways to classify, and this is why I like the cameo minor and major, because rather than looking at archetypes, which are helpful, but I don't really think they help you in terms of understanding how to build a side character, how much depth do they need, how much impact should they be having?
[00:14:34] Do they need arcs? These were the questions that I was being asked when I was researching and from my audience. And so that's what helped me to come up with a structure of a cameo minor and major.
[00:14:45] So on the major then, Ron and Hermione are clearly major side characters. You cannot take them out of HARRY POTTER because the book would not to be the same. They both have character arcs; they both have subplots. Hermione gets her time turner, cocky device thingy. Hermione's character arc goes from this bossy, slightly arrogant, bit irritating know-it-all to this really rather humble, helpful, clever girl who helps bring information to Harry and save the day.
[00:15:17] If we talk about A CHRISTMAS CAROL, then the three ghosts are major characters because the book wouldn't work without them. And they helped push Scrooge along his journey. So major characters, they have subplots, they have character arcs, they might have their own backstory. They're very likely to have very vivid descriptions. You're going to know a lot about them, and they're going to impact and affect the story in some way. And they should really be impacting and affecting the protagonist in some way as well.
[00:15:45] Matty: Ron and Hermione are interesting examples because I think those are ones where they both advance the story for the reasons you gave and are a mechanism for illustrating parts about Harry. So, in some cases, you understand more about Harry in so far as he is like or different than Hermione and Ron, less studious than Hermione but less kind of chaotic than Ron. Are there other examples there where the side characters are having that sort of reflective quality on the character of the protagonist
[00:16:22] Sacha: Yes. And I think it comes back to theme. So usually when it's done well, it's when each side character represents a different aspect of theme. So the protagonist will always reflect the theme and thematic message. And let's just pick sacrifice because there's some very obvious examples of sacrifice.
[00:16:50] So let's say, the theme is if you love somebody you should sacrifice yourself for them. So that is ultimately what the hero should be doing. They should be sacrificing either themselves and dying at the end of the story, or they should be sacrificing a part of themselves. Maybe they give up a job that they love. Maybe they give up money. They should be sacrificing something.
[00:17:12] But then your side characters should be reflecting a different twist on that. So for example, you could have a side character who decides that if you love somebody, they shouldn't make you sacrifice yourself. And so you would have a side character who actually chooses not to sacrifice themselves because they love themselves and they love that person, and they feel that if they sacrifice themselves, they would be resentful or bitter towards the people they love.
[00:17:41] You could have another person that decides that they don't believe in sacrifice. You could have another person who thinks you should only sacrifice money. And so perhaps they are very generous, but they're actually really mean and cold hearted. So you can have these different reflections on the theme in each of these different characters. And by the very nature of having these different reflections and different angles on the theme, your protagonist is reflecting off of these characters.
[00:18:12] It's like Spock and Captain Kirk. Spock is completely different to Captain Kirk, and yet they share very similar values. And so it's this difference that actually creates, the reflection and the similarities between them. And so, yes, absolutely, I do think that, but I think it comes back to theme or in a really good story, in my humble opinion, it comes back to theme. I'm sure there were examples where it doesn't but...
[00:18:38] Matty: Well, the STAR TREK example is interesting to me because in a way, certainly Kirk is different than Spock, but I think that Kirk is the conglomeration of the caricatured characteristics of the side characters.
[00:18:55] So, he's not as logical as Spock, but he's logical. He's not as emotional as the doctor, but he's emotional. He's not as sort of " the ship is going to blow up" as Scotty, but he's like the perfect combination of all of them and that's why he's the captain. So, is there a danger of making side characters too caricatured as you're going for that reflective quality of the protagonist?
[00:19:21] Sacha: That's such an interesting question because, and this is really controversial to say, and I don't say this in the book, but as we're talking, it made me think of it. I actually think a lot of protagonists of very bland and the reason they're bland is because they are this conglomeration of all of the other characters.
[00:19:40] And because they are the ones with the biggest flaw and the biggest change that they need to go through, and so it's almost at the end of that change that they become far more themselves.
[00:19:49] Now, on being a caricature specifically, it really depends on the level of side character. Cameos can be caricatures. Because they have so little time, it's fine if that's what you want to do, because the reader isn't going to have enough time with them to even realize, really, that's what they are. Similarly with minor characters, you will get a bit more page time, but it doesn't really matter. Because they have such few pages and such few scenes, you almost have to go slightly over the top to create a bit more character. And you as the author get away with murder here because you don't have to back it up with backstory and with depth, because the reader will accept at face value that they are just a minor character and therefore they can be a little bit more extravagant.
[00:20:43] Where I would say it is more dangerous to use caricature, if you like, is with the major side characters. They get the page time, they get the space to create at least the illusion of depth, if not real depth, because realistically the only one that can have comprehensive depth is the protagonist, because they have all of the pages. So yeah, the thing also with major characters is that you should still have something that is standout. So what is that thing that is completely memorable? That little thing probably is a bit caricature. That's okay because you are going to wrap it in all of the other things. You're going to wrap it in the illusion of an arc. You're going to wrap it in a subplot. There probably will be a bit of backstory there. So I hope that answers the question.
[00:21:34] Matty: Well, I was just thinking, I really like the observation that a lot of times the protagonist is a bit bland. And the other example that's sprung to mind for me was Luke Skywalker is by far the most boring character in the first STAR WARS, the chronologically in terms of released STAR WARS, and really takes a back seat in terms of character interest to the Han Solos, and the Princess Leias, and the Chewbaccas, and Darth Vaders because he's kind of the person who's just being thrown into this in some ways more interesting pool of side characters.
[00:22:08] Sacha: And isn't it funny because I genuinely feel like we get to have more fun with our side characters than we do with any other character, because the protagonist is confined by the arc or the theme or the message that you are trying to put out, which means they have to hit certain points. They have to go through the story arc. And the side characters aren't confined by those restrictions. They are much freer and you do get to have a lot more fun with your side characters. I actually love writing side characters for I almost more than I do main characters.
[00:22:41] Matty: Well, it’s very interesting that I'm just having a new audio book narrator narrate my fourth Ann Kinnear Suspense Novel, and she had done one scene, fortunately right off the bat there's a scene that has almost all the characters in a conversation. And so she'd recorded that one chapter, sent it to me and said let me know what you want me to do with the voices, if you want any changes. And so I said, 'Oh, make this one sound a tiny bit gruffer sounding, make this one sound a tiny bit like more obsequious sounding' or whatever.
[00:23:09] And then one of the characters, Garrick Masser, I said, he really needs to sound like an American Christopher Lee and you almost can't go overboard with your portrayal of him because he's exactly, he's the fun side character that you can go overboard with, both as a narrator and as a writer.
[00:23:29] Sacha: Yeah. There was always a few in there. I have one in my young adult series who is basically an elf, an angry drunk elf, and her whole sole purpose is to go around smashing things, drinking all of the drinks and swearing. And she is just so much fun. And she will come in and cause trouble and leave again. And to be fair, she does help as well, but she's just my absolute fun outlet in story.
[00:23:59] Matty: So, is there ever a danger that the fun side characters are going to overshadow the protagonist? When should an author watch out for that?
[00:24:08] Sacha: So I talk about another concept in the book called "scene power." Now, scene power is this really handy tool wrapped up in an analogy. So if you think about a dinner party and let's say you're going to a dinner party, maybe there's 10 or 12 people at this dinner party. When you walk into the room, you as a human should be able to sense who the host is. There's almost intangible energy that will be drawing you towards the protagonist. And the protagonist is the host in this concept, the protagonist is the host.
[00:24:50] Now, the side characters or the guests will of course have their moments. So you may walk in when one of the side characters or the guests is telling jokes or telling an anecdote, and so briefly it may look like they are holding the power in the room, but they're not really, because if you think about the concept of a dinner party, there is only one person who decides when they're going to serve the starter. There's only one person who decides when they're going to clean the plates. When pudding gets served. Are they going to have coffee, and after dinner mints. That's only ever one person.
[00:25:31] And so if you were to walk into this dining room and somebody other than the host was there doing that and making those decisions, you may ask questions. And you'd be right to because the power dynamic would be wrong in that room. It's the host that leads. It's the host that drives. Now, yes, your guests may ask poignant questions that makes the host set and reflect about something. They may help to clean those dishes away, but they're not leading the dinner. They are not organizing it and they are not driving the evening. And that is the difference. So if you have scenes where your side characters all of a sudden start to make those decisions or start to drive the action, you know that there's a problem.
[00:26:20] Now one of the things I do in the book, and it's really uncomfortable to read and it was a really uncomfortable to write. So I take a scene from my novel, and I rewrite it so that the scene power is wrong. And you can barely tell who the protagonist is in the story. Oh, it's awful to read. I can barely read through it because it's so uncomfortable, and it's confusing and you're not sure who's making the decisions or who the protagonist is.
[00:26:51] And then I point out all of the places where it's wrong. And then I show the final scene that went into the published novel and all of a sudden everything flows. It feels right. The energy is right, the direction and the drive and the pull in the scene is right. Yeah, I like to give examples and I don't think there is any better example. I think that is my favorite example in the book, because it's so uncomfortable. I even give a warning to say, this is really uncomfortable.
[00:27:22] Matty: Now that's a book in a series, correct? Like the protagonist was already established before the scene that you are describing.
[00:27:30] Sacha: Yes. Yes. It's a scene towards the climax of the first book.
[00:27:35] Matty: Okay. So I'm wondering if so one is writing the first draft of their first book and they get done and maybe they do an exercise like you describe, and it's clear that they're sending mixed signals about who the protagonist is. Are there hints that an author should either heed or ignore that says maybe you've picked the wrong protagonist. Maybe the protagonist is actually the side character.
[00:27:58] Matty: Is there advice you give for people to either pursue that or ignore that or fix that?
[00:28:05] Sacha: So I think you have to ask yourself, what is your book trying to say, and which character is saying that in the most concise and clear way, because some side characters can come into particular scenes and sound off and that's okay, as long as they then aren't doing that in multiple scenes. If they're doing it in multiple scenes, then maybe you do have the wrong protagonist.
[00:28:30] Matty: To me, the key of that response is the idea of who's representing your theme. Because you do, as you had said earlier, you have the protagonist, who's embodying the theme and then the people there who are surrounding them are either providing them with a venue to pursue the theme or to reflect the theme, I guess.
[00:28:49] Sacha: Yeah, absolutely. And which way round is it in the majority of the book. So if you have a side character that has a small arc and your protagonist is influencing that arc, then the direction of the pull and the drive in the story is still that way, even if they're trying and trying to be the diva in that particular scene.
[00:29:12] And also, it really does depend on the point of view you're writing in. Maybe if you write in third person, you need to give them a point of view, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are the protagonist. They can narrate without being the protagonist. So it might be that the sort of point of view structure is wrong in your book.
[00:29:33] It might be that you have a narrator. So this is another good example. So I am writing a book called the SCENT OF DEATH and the narrator is not the protagonist. The narrator is narrating the book about the protagonist.
[00:29:47] Matty: It's like Sherlock Holmes and Watson, right?
[00:29:50] Sacha: Exactly. Right. Watson is not the protagonist. The story is always about Sherlock. But Watson has a lot to say and almost more to say than Sherlock. And therefore that is why they are narrating.
[00:30:03] So you have to look at what it is your side character's trying to do. Is it just that they have a lot to say, is it that they have a different perspective and therefore does that need to be shown in dialogue? Does it need to be shown in a scene? Is that part of their subplots? Or has the story become about them, because that can happen sometimes. But I would still go back to, what is it you're trying to say in the story? What is the arc of the main character or the main, whoever you decide that is, what is the arc? And do you have enough page time to explore that throughout all of the different scenes?
[00:30:40] Matty: When I'm thinking about your advice and this character I'd mentioned before, Garrick Masser, early on in the series, I thought, oh, maybe someday I'll spin off a separate series that focuses on Garrick. And then I realized that Garrick is fun for short shots, but a whole book about Garrick would I think be almost unreadable, because he's sort of like Sherlock Holmes, he's obnoxious and full of himself and always feels everybody's just an inconvenience and he just as soon be home reading. So that might be a hint too. Are they more of the spice or are they more the main dish if we're thinking of different metaphors we're using for this scenario.
[00:31:17] Sacha: Yeah, exactly. Like side characters are there to sprinkle a little bit of glitter, because like we said before, the protagonist is restricted by so many story rules and story structure. So just because a side character sparkles in one scene doesn't mean that they're the protagonist. It just means that bringing a bit of spice or glitter or whatever to your story.
[00:31:37] Matty: Right. And I was also thinking one of the comments you had made earlier about Katniss being the protagonist of HUNGER GAMES and imagining what that story would have been with, and I'm blanking on his name. the male tribute ...
[00:31:50] Sacha: Peeta or Gale? Peeta.
[00:31:52] Matty: I thought that would be interesting to imagine THE HUNGER GAMES from his point of view, because he obviously makes a lot of sacrifices, but you can't because he is keeping secrets that Katniss couldn't know. And if she knew, if you were hearing it from his point of view then, then it would be big swaths of the plot.
[00:32:08] Sacha: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:32:10] Matty: It seems like there are two ways you could come up with side characters. One is that you're writing along and somebody just pops into the story. And the other one is that you're stepping back and saying, I need someone to narrate the story. I need somebody to serve a function. Is one of those a better or more dangerous approach
[00:32:31] if you're early in the storytelling process?
[00:32:34] Sacha: I don't think so. I think writing a novel and writing a story is really difficult. And it doesn't really matter how you write the story as long as you get to the end. So, if you find it like generous amplitude to just make it up as you go along, fine. If you find that you're more structured and you want to plan out, I need a character to act as this function and this function, then do that.
[00:32:57] If you are getting to the end of stories, it doesn't matter how you are getting there. The point is to get to the end because it's so unbelievably difficult to do that when you're early in the process. So I always say don't ever let anybody tell you that there is one way to write a story because that it just isn't.
[00:33:14] And the thing is, ultimately books are not written. They are rewritten. And whatever your first draft characters come out like, they should hopefully be revised anyway as you go along. So as long as you're getting them on the page, you can fix them in later drafts.
[00:33:30] Matty: I often find that when I'm on a first draft, when I finish first draft, I have more side characters than I usually end up with because on subsequent revisions, I generally find ways to combine characters in a way that still serves the story need or the character development need that I had. And I like that the tighter effect, like all my books are more intense scrutiny and a small group of people, not a large cast. Are there guidelines about how many is too many for side characters?
[00:33:59] Sacha: There are exceptions to every single rule. Look at George RR Martin, thousands of characters, or Robert Jordan, Wheel of Time or whatever it is? Yeah, that's got 2,700 characters or something ridiculous. Look, ultimately the way I see it is that if you can look at your cast of characters and you can identify the purpose and the reason why they are in your story and what they are doing in your story and how they are impacting your story, then you probably need them.
[00:34:29] If you cannot identify what they're doing, or when I say what I mean, what influence they are having either positive or negative on the story or the protagonist, if you can't identify the message that they're giving, if you can't identify like a function, maybe they are there to be a joker and bring light to something that's very serious. Maybe they are there to make the protagonist reflect.
[00:34:56] If you can't identify some vital reason that they are in your story, you can probably get rid of them and give let's say they bring a message that's vital or something, if that's a transactional action. you can get another character to do that.
[00:35:14] That is my stance on major side characters. Obviously they are the ones who are most likely to be like archetypes, the mentor or the ally or whatever. Minor characters and cameos, well, they're kind of ten-a-penny anyway. If you're finding that you're struggling, I would always err on fewer, at least initially, because it's easier to manage them. And you don't want to have five different bar men. And then, a character that's mentioned once, and then it comes back at 700 pages later. And nobody can remember who this person is. It's better to combine them and have more mentions so that the reader will remember them when you get to that point. But you know, and there are no rules. If you have characters who are going to do something, then let them.
[00:36:01] I also find for like, I write somewhere between plotting and pantsing, and occasionally I will drop in a side character, and they'll appear like a couple of times, but then it won't actually come to me why they're there until two books later. And then all of a sudden, they make a really big splash and I'm like, 'Oh, see, I did do it for a reason.'
[00:36:22] So you have to give yourself a bit of flexibility and a bit of wiggle room. Nobody's going to write to you and complain about some character that appeared three times in your book and didn't really do a lot. They're just not going to do that. They're going to write, because either you had them in floods of tears or they were super joyful or they hated your book, God forbid. So yeah, there are no rules.
[00:36:45] Matty: One thing I wanted to close out with, because I really enjoyed this part of your book, is the idea that sometimes I've read books where characters will show up and they'll be killed off and I feel like the only reason they ever showed up is so the author could achieve what they hope to be like a moment of drama or tragedy or pathos or something by killing them off. And you had this really interesting sort of assessment of when it's okay to kill off the side characters and when it's a bad idea to kill off the side characters. Can you just talk about that a little bit.
[00:37:14] Sacha: Yeah. Okay. So bad reasons to kill off the character because it's going to make you rate a cry, because it's for shock value. If they're a diverse character, now this is really difficult one because if it's right for the character arc or if you're writing a book about all diverse characters, then obviously somebody is going to die somewhere along the line. So I'm not saying you can never kill a diverse character, but what I'm saying is there should be a reason behind it because there was not enough diversity in fiction as it is.
[00:37:42] So yeah, there's, it's such a thing that there is even a troop called "kill your gays" because gay people are killed in fiction so often.
[00:37:50] Another reason for not killing a character, and I have done this myself, so I'm complete hypocrite, to say this, but also I know it's really annoying is if I'm not going to stay dead and, spoiler alert, I'm going to give a warning cause I'm about to spoil something.
[00:38:03] Have you read NEVERWHERE by Neil Gaiman?
[00:38:05] Matty: Yes
[00:38:06] Sacha: For anybody who hasn't read NEVERWHERE by Neil Gaiman. I'm warning you now <of spoilers>.
[00:38:15] So the Marquis the Carabas or whatever his name is, is killed and worse, he's killed off screen. And when he comes back. Now I knew, like I knew, like a little way later, obviously he's not killed for very long. I was like, what? As I was reading, I nearly didn't finish the book because I was so cross because he is a major side character, and he just spontaneously vanishes out of the story. And I was like, what? and he's killed off screen. And so I was very cross about that. And then I was like, 'hang over that' there's no body, he's got to be coming back. And he does eventually come back. But I just, it didn't work for me in that instance.
[00:38:54] There are other instances where it does work. So like for example, I feel really bad, I'm like spoiling things for people, but have you watched the TV show SCANDAL? In fact, I can do it without using SCANDAL. So for example, in thrillers, quite often, people die but there's never a body. And so maybe it's somebody's parent or maybe it's somebody's boyfriend, like Patricia Cornwell is famous for this as well. And somebody dies and then there's never a body, but like their life is ruined and the protagonist mourns for this person.
[00:39:26] And then all of a sudden you're like, hold up and then they come back. Sometimes it can be done really well. And it's a plot twist. But I think you have to have enough description and realism around that death for it to be real enough that the reader can accept that death. And then you have to also have a really good amount of realism and explanation to bring that character back. Otherwise, it's a problem. In magic systems, it's much easier to do this. And the last reason not to kill a character is when you're fridging them. So this comes from THE GREEN LANTERN which is a comic and his partner, Alexandra DeWitt or something, the major force basically kills her, chops her up and puts her in a fridge. And that's where "fridging" comes from.
[00:40:13] But the problem with that death is that he did it for no good reason. There was basically no motive behind it. There was no reason why, she was just killed off to further THE GREEN LANTERN's character arc. Now you can kill characters and use it as motivation, but like as long as there's justified reasons behind it, rather than just serving to push a male character's character arc on.
[00:40:40] And I say this, and it's not just men. What was her name in Willow that was there in BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER. She was dating Tara and Tara is shot and killed. I'm sorry, it's a spoiler on that. This was years ago, though.
[00:40:58] Matty: I'll put a warning in the front of this: FILLED WITH SPOILERS!
[00:41:04] Sacha: Sorry, sorry about that, but I like examples.
[00:41:07] Matty: Sure, I do too.
[00:41:08] Sacha: So yeah, Tara is Willow's girlfriend, and she is shot. We never find out who shoots her, like I think anyway, and she just dies. And the only reason she dies is to send Willow off the deep end, into like bad witch arena. That's it? And it's, there's just no justification.
[00:41:26] A good death should have a consequence and it can either be a plot consequence or an emotional consequence, but there should be a consequence. There should be reason why. It should be justified. So yeah. And so that gives you some good reasons.
[00:41:39] Matty: Could I just go back for one second to one of your bad reasons, because I'm going to do a counterpoint on the NEVERWHERE thing. NEVERWHERE is probably my favorite book of all time. And I've listened to the game and narrated audio book, like six times. And my defense of the Marquis's death, and then resurrection, and I'm thinking this through. It may not turn out as watertight as I might like it to, but the fact that he makes the sacrifice is so seemingly out of character, he's sort of the ultimate selfish person through most of the book. And he has agreed to do this favor because not owing a favor is primary for him, and to me his death and then coming back, first of all, him coming back, I was totally fine with because it's NEVERWHERE, that kind of stuff is happening all the time, but it was like the ultimate illustration of his personality that he hated owing a favor so much, he was willing to go through this horrific experience of losing his life and then even getting his life back wasn't particularly pleasant, in order to erase that debt, and I just thought that was, I bought it. And I love that scene because I thought it was such a perfect illustration of his priorities in life or in death.
[00:42:58] Sacha: So my issue wasn't that he died and came back. My issue was that it was off screen.
[00:43:05] Matty: Oh, okay.
[00:43:05] Sacha: You don't see it happen. Yeah, that was my problem. I was like, wait, what? And I was so distracted by the fact that all of a sudden he died. I was then completely jarred out of the story. So, another really good example of a very selfish character who makes the ultimate sacrifice is Ironman, and it's almost, it's a very similar trajectory and story. He doesn't come back.
[00:43:28] But yeah, it fulfills that character arc beautifully. And so it is completely justified to do that. And that is one of the good reasons to kill a character is to justify that, or to fulfill their character arc. Rufio is another one from PETER PAN where he hated Peter, but he didn't really, he just admired him and wanted to be him, but obviously they have a terrible relationship at the start. And then he makes the ultimate sacrifice for him, completing that journey in that arc relationship between him and Peter.
[00:43:59] So yeah, I do understand and completely agree that he did complete an arc and almost didn't complete an arc because he did it for selfish reasons. He did a very unselfish thing for selfish reasons, which is just this wonderful juxtaposition.
[00:44:16] Matty: Right. If he had been doing it for unselfish reasons, then I would have been fed up, but it was perfect. But yeah, Neil Gaiman, if you're listening to this, please leave a comment about why you had the Marquis die off screen.
[00:44:28] And another interesting thing about in NEVERWHERE, I'm nerding out on NEVERWHERE now, is that on the audio book, and I think in the print book, if you get it, you may also get the extra short story HOW THE MARQUIS GOT HIS COAT BACK.
[00:44:43] Sacha: I didn't, but I bought it and read it.
[00:44:45] Matty: Yeah. And that's interesting because there were some of the funniest lines I've ever read in that. I just laugh out loud every time I listen to it. But there were a couple of things that like you find out about his family situation. I'm like, I don't really want to know about the Marquis's family situation. I'm happy just having it be the Marquis. So that would be an example of either a brilliant or an uncomfortable spinoff of a side character into their own story.
[00:45:14] Sacha: No, absolutely. Yeah. So some of the other reasons. Okay, so to motivate a character. I know I said, obviously don't fridge a character, but you can like Black Widow dying spurs on the rest of the Marvel characters to continue fighting on. And like we said, if it's a good end to their character arc, it brings it round nicely. Character can die and it can throw the protagonist into the dark night, maybe it was a loved one, maybe it was a friend, maybe it was their mentor; mentor was a very obvious one that happens all the time in fantasy. Because it's realistic.
[00:45:48] GAME OF THRONES. If nobody died, it would be a bit weird, there's battles constantly. Maybe augments the theme. So really good example of that is THE FAULT IN OUR STARS, where the theme is about loss and grief and illness and teenage death, and so somebody's got to die because it was realistic and it augments the theme.
[00:46:05] Maybe advances the plot, maybe it puts a barrier in the way or removes the barrier and therefore it's helping the plot along. And then the other one that we've already talked about is around the character arc completion.
[00:46:18] Matty: Yeah. There are some, it would be. I didn't actually watch GAME OF THRONES because it was too violent for me. But I would occasionally see like the recaps and it would basically give the roster of who had died in that episode. And I thought, there's got to be people who were really invested in that roster of people and are unhappy.
[00:46:35] Sacha: It was so good until the last couple of episodes. And then I just threw my toys out the pram. I was furious.
[00:46:44] Matty: Yeah. I heard that from other people as well.
[00:46:46] So Sacha, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and talking through that, please let the listeners know where they can find out about your new book and all your other books and your work online.
[00:46:56] Sacha: Thank you so much. So you can find me on SachaBlack.co.uk. I am probably most active on Instagram where I'm @SachaBlackAuthor. You can listen to my podcast: THE REBEL AUTHOR PODCAST, where you will be coming on very soon. Or actually perhaps you will have already been on by then. And what else? Yeah, I'm wide, so you can get my books on any store, anywhere. Yeah, I think that's most of the things.
[00:47:23] Matty:
[00:47:23] Sacha, thank you so much. This was so much fun.
[00:47:25] Sacha: Thank you for having me.
[00:03:02] So yeah, this book was like a combination of pulling a ton of things from different areas. And then me thinking about it and analyzing TV shows and analyzing books and films.
[00:03:16] Matty: It surprises me that coincidentally the overwhelming vote with side characters. Do you know if there was something going on, like something in popular culture that triggered that or some discussion you'd been having with your followers that triggered that?
[00:03:29] Sacha: I don't think so. I think it's purely because the side characters were who were left. I'd done villains, I'd done heroes and therefore side characters were left.
[00:03:38] And I think it's one of these things that one person will comment and then when one person sees that, somebody else is like, oh, actually, yeah, I'd really appreciate that. And then it spirals. So there were, like I say, there were two camps, and it was about 45-55 in terms of the votes. So it was very close in terms of the people who wanted a description versus those that wanted side characters. But because side characters just pipped it, and also because I just finished writing prose and I felt like doing a book on description, there were going to be similar elements to the prose book. That's why I went with side characters, just keeping my sanity.
[00:04:13] Matty: Have a little variety.
[00:04:16] Sacha: Exactly.
[00:04:17] Matty: I think it makes sense to start out with a definition of what you mean by side characters.
[00:04:23] Sacha: So side characters are essentially any character that isn't your protagonist or your villain. So lots of people will say that a villain is a side character and in essence, they are kind of a side character, but I like to see the villain as somebody different in their entirety, because there's so much you can do with them, and they are so vital to the story.
[00:04:47] So for me and my personal definition, the protagonist is who the story is about. Sometimes you have a hero as well in there, but generally speaking, we're talking about who the story is about. The antagonist or the villain is the biggest conflicting, opposing force. And then side characters are everything else.
[00:05:06] I like to think of side characters as the feeders. I use an analogy in the book where I talk about story or your book as a body. And if your story as a whole is a body, then your protagonist is the heart. Your theme is the soul of your story or if you're a story body, and your side characters are arteries and veins that feed into the heart, they feed into the protagonist. That can be, in terms of the arteries that they're feeding oxygen in and the veins are taking the bad stuff out. They're taking the carbon dioxide out or putting the carbon dioxide back into the heart to go to the lungs. This isn't a biology lesson, anyway, but the point is your side characters can either be that positive or that negative. They can be a conflict or a helpful side character.
[00:05:53] So I'm not sure that I'm giving you a succinct definition, but anything that isn't the protagonist or in my opinion the villain is technically a side character.
[00:06:06] Matty: So I have to ask, what in the body analogy is the villain?
[00:06:11] Sacha: I knew you were going to ask me that and I didn't put that into the book.
[00:06:15] I think probably viruses, bacteria, anything that is unhealthy for the body is probably what I would say. But I reserve the right to amend that if I think of something better.
[00:06:29] Matty: That is a cool analogy though. As listeners will know, I love using nautical metaphors for the writing and publishing craft, but there are all sorts of interesting aspects to plumb using the body as well. I like that.
[00:06:42] So a sidekick, is that different than a side character or a type of side character? What is the sidekick?
[00:06:49] Sacha: So in technical terms, a sidekick is usually someone of the same sex or gender as the protagonist. So like Batman and Robin, that's a sidekick. In BREAKING BAD, in an essence that would be Walter White and Jesse. Sidekicks I tend to see as more like a superhero rather than being across all genres. And I see side characters is a bit more holistic. They include more types of side character, cross genders, you know, all the genders in between. So yeah, I personally see sidekick more of that comic hero, Marvel, same gendered. Thelma and Louise, they're sidekicks for each other. Whereas side characters are a catch-all for all characters that aren't heroes and villains.
[00:07:42] Matty: Thelma and Louise is a really interesting example because would you assess them as a pair as the protagonist? Or do you see that movie a different way?
[00:07:52] Sacha: I would have to go back and watch it because it's been too long. I tell you what I will do. I will go back and watch it and then I'll drop you an email and be like, this is what I think now. Because I think usually if you drill in deep enough, there is one character who it's about rather than but yeah, I don't know. I would have to go back and watch it again.
[00:08:08] Matty: So that's everybody's assignment, all the listeners is go watch THELMA AND LOUISE and then weigh in on if you think one or both of them are the protagonist. So, maybe expanding on the idea of the different characters as parts of the body, I'm imagining that side characters, there are two roles that ideally they're playing, they're either furthering the story or they're furthering the development of the other characters. Do you agree with that and pick either one and talk about how they might do that, if you think that's a function they perform.
[00:08:37] Sacha: Yeah, so side character, they can only do one of two things: they can either help the protagonist or they can hinder them. There's not really anything in between. I mean, it depends on the level at which the side character is.
[00:08:50] So you have cameos who are these like flash in the pan, very fleeting, brief characters who are barely in the story at all. Maybe they're just a guard or a faceless girl with a teddy. Then you have minor characters who were they're a bit more often, slightly more transactional interactions, maybe they're a barman that serves the protagonist a few times in the story. Maybe they bring information. But they're not really impacting or affecting the story. And then you have the major side characters. So mostly, that's what I focus on. And so in those terms, those characters are really only doing one of two things. They're either furthering the protagonist story or they're hindering it.
[00:09:31] But they serve as lots of different things, so they can reveal information. They can represent different aspects of the theme. And in that different representation of the theme, it can be a positive representation or a negative representation. They can create conflict. They obviously help to create dialogue, which creates pace. They can pull the protagonists towards their goal, or they can serve as like a moralistic, like reminder as to what the protagonist doesn't want to do, by this other person's actions. They can narrate even. That is a literary device, they can narrate the story as well. They can also expose bits of the story that the protagonists may or may not ... like if you write in first person or like third person limited and it's only that one limited viewpoint, then side characters can also expose other bits of story or information. Obviously, you have to be careful with the levels of exposition, but they can serve as tools to help you do that.
[00:10:33] So in amongst the either help or hindrance, they have lots of different things that they can do. But broadly speaking, they are either pulling or pushing the protagonist one way or the other.
[00:10:45] Matty: One of the things that I really enjoyed about your book, and I was lucky enough to get an advanced copy, is the movie, book, and TV references that you use. So, in that rundown of various functions that a side character or can perform, are there any call-outs that you can say, oh, in the narrator role, here's a good example or in the cameo, here's a good example of that.
[00:11:07] Sacha: Oh, okay. So for cameo minor and major. Okay. Those I have in my head. If you're asking about the other ones, I'll have to come back to you. Okay. Say for cameos, really good example is like Stan Lee. So, Stan Lee was the comic book author behind a lot of the Marvel movies, and in every single movie he appears for like between 10 and 30 seconds. In one of them, I think it was one of the Hulk ones, he is driving a truck. In another one he's a shop assistant, and in another one, he's the foreman on a jury. So like he literally stands up and says one line.
[00:11:40] Another example, if you've seen THE MATRIX, this is like my favorite example of cameo ever. But have you seen THE MATRIX?
[00:11:47] Matty: I have not, I'm embarrassed to say. That's my other assignment is to go watch THE MATRIX.
[00:11:52] Sacha: Oh, my goodness, you have to watch THE MATRIX, it's fantastic. Blew my mind as a 15-year-old. Okay, so THE MATRIX is essentially this artificial intelligence world created by artificial intelligence who essentially plug humans into their AI reality and use our bodies for energy. And so our minds don't realize that we're in the Matrix. Main character gets pulled out, then goes back inside for training because it's only inside the Matrix where he can beat the AI that created it.
[00:12:23] So he's training and he's in this downtown New York street, very bland and everybody's in black and white and he walks past this woman. So everybody's in black and white and he walks past this woman in red and it obviously draws his attention, and then when he looks back, the woman is gone. Andin the film, the point is that an agent has taken over this person's body and agents can be anywhere. The point in terms of a cameo is that is the only time you see her in a two-hour film. She's there for like three seconds. She says nothing. And the only thing that you remember about her is that she was rather attractive and wearing a red dress.
[00:13:02] And that's kind of the point. You know, with minor characters, these are people like Mr. Filch in the HARRY POTTER series, and I apologize, I know lots of people are not happy with JK Rowling, but it's such a well-known reference. It's very hard to find things that people don't know.
[00:13:18] Mr. Filch and his cat, they don't really do an awful lot in the stories. They are there, they sometimes cause a few problems, the cat in particular causes a couple of problems in the books and the films. They don't have a change arc. They're not deeply connected with Harry or any of the other characters and you could essentially take him out of the book and the story wouldn't change in any way.
[00:13:44] Wheezy from a TOY STORY is another example. Possibly Tiny Tim from A CHRISTMAS CAROL, although arguably if you took him out that might affect the story.
[00:13:54] Matty: It's almost mechanism, like a plot mechanism. Whereas Tiny Tim is clearly a plot mechanism for that story, but not really a cameo because it sounds like the briefness of the appearance is key to the cameo concept.
[00:14:08] Sacha: Exactly. But Tiny Tim’s also not a major character because he doesn't get enough page time or enough depth. There are these different ways to classify, and this is why I like the cameo minor and major, because rather than looking at archetypes, which are helpful, but I don't really think they help you in terms of understanding how to build a side character, how much depth do they need, how much impact should they be having?
[00:14:34] Do they need arcs? These were the questions that I was being asked when I was researching and from my audience. And so that's what helped me to come up with a structure of a cameo minor and major.
[00:14:45] So on the major then, Ron and Hermione are clearly major side characters. You cannot take them out of HARRY POTTER because the book would not to be the same. They both have character arcs; they both have subplots. Hermione gets her time turner, cocky device thingy. Hermione's character arc goes from this bossy, slightly arrogant, bit irritating know-it-all to this really rather humble, helpful, clever girl who helps bring information to Harry and save the day.
[00:15:17] If we talk about A CHRISTMAS CAROL, then the three ghosts are major characters because the book wouldn't work without them. And they helped push Scrooge along his journey. So major characters, they have subplots, they have character arcs, they might have their own backstory. They're very likely to have very vivid descriptions. You're going to know a lot about them, and they're going to impact and affect the story in some way. And they should really be impacting and affecting the protagonist in some way as well.
[00:15:45] Matty: Ron and Hermione are interesting examples because I think those are ones where they both advance the story for the reasons you gave and are a mechanism for illustrating parts about Harry. So, in some cases, you understand more about Harry in so far as he is like or different than Hermione and Ron, less studious than Hermione but less kind of chaotic than Ron. Are there other examples there where the side characters are having that sort of reflective quality on the character of the protagonist
[00:16:22] Sacha: Yes. And I think it comes back to theme. So usually when it's done well, it's when each side character represents a different aspect of theme. So the protagonist will always reflect the theme and thematic message. And let's just pick sacrifice because there's some very obvious examples of sacrifice.
[00:16:50] So let's say, the theme is if you love somebody you should sacrifice yourself for them. So that is ultimately what the hero should be doing. They should be sacrificing either themselves and dying at the end of the story, or they should be sacrificing a part of themselves. Maybe they give up a job that they love. Maybe they give up money. They should be sacrificing something.
[00:17:12] But then your side characters should be reflecting a different twist on that. So for example, you could have a side character who decides that if you love somebody, they shouldn't make you sacrifice yourself. And so you would have a side character who actually chooses not to sacrifice themselves because they love themselves and they love that person, and they feel that if they sacrifice themselves, they would be resentful or bitter towards the people they love.
[00:17:41] You could have another person that decides that they don't believe in sacrifice. You could have another person who thinks you should only sacrifice money. And so perhaps they are very generous, but they're actually really mean and cold hearted. So you can have these different reflections on the theme in each of these different characters. And by the very nature of having these different reflections and different angles on the theme, your protagonist is reflecting off of these characters.
[00:18:12] It's like Spock and Captain Kirk. Spock is completely different to Captain Kirk, and yet they share very similar values. And so it's this difference that actually creates, the reflection and the similarities between them. And so, yes, absolutely, I do think that, but I think it comes back to theme or in a really good story, in my humble opinion, it comes back to theme. I'm sure there were examples where it doesn't but...
[00:18:38] Matty: Well, the STAR TREK example is interesting to me because in a way, certainly Kirk is different than Spock, but I think that Kirk is the conglomeration of the caricatured characteristics of the side characters.
[00:18:55] So, he's not as logical as Spock, but he's logical. He's not as emotional as the doctor, but he's emotional. He's not as sort of " the ship is going to blow up" as Scotty, but he's like the perfect combination of all of them and that's why he's the captain. So, is there a danger of making side characters too caricatured as you're going for that reflective quality of the protagonist?
[00:19:21] Sacha: That's such an interesting question because, and this is really controversial to say, and I don't say this in the book, but as we're talking, it made me think of it. I actually think a lot of protagonists of very bland and the reason they're bland is because they are this conglomeration of all of the other characters.
[00:19:40] And because they are the ones with the biggest flaw and the biggest change that they need to go through, and so it's almost at the end of that change that they become far more themselves.
[00:19:49] Now, on being a caricature specifically, it really depends on the level of side character. Cameos can be caricatures. Because they have so little time, it's fine if that's what you want to do, because the reader isn't going to have enough time with them to even realize, really, that's what they are. Similarly with minor characters, you will get a bit more page time, but it doesn't really matter. Because they have such few pages and such few scenes, you almost have to go slightly over the top to create a bit more character. And you as the author get away with murder here because you don't have to back it up with backstory and with depth, because the reader will accept at face value that they are just a minor character and therefore they can be a little bit more extravagant.
[00:20:43] Where I would say it is more dangerous to use caricature, if you like, is with the major side characters. They get the page time, they get the space to create at least the illusion of depth, if not real depth, because realistically the only one that can have comprehensive depth is the protagonist, because they have all of the pages. So yeah, the thing also with major characters is that you should still have something that is standout. So what is that thing that is completely memorable? That little thing probably is a bit caricature. That's okay because you are going to wrap it in all of the other things. You're going to wrap it in the illusion of an arc. You're going to wrap it in a subplot. There probably will be a bit of backstory there. So I hope that answers the question.
[00:21:34] Matty: Well, I was just thinking, I really like the observation that a lot of times the protagonist is a bit bland. And the other example that's sprung to mind for me was Luke Skywalker is by far the most boring character in the first STAR WARS, the chronologically in terms of released STAR WARS, and really takes a back seat in terms of character interest to the Han Solos, and the Princess Leias, and the Chewbaccas, and Darth Vaders because he's kind of the person who's just being thrown into this in some ways more interesting pool of side characters.
[00:22:08] Sacha: And isn't it funny because I genuinely feel like we get to have more fun with our side characters than we do with any other character, because the protagonist is confined by the arc or the theme or the message that you are trying to put out, which means they have to hit certain points. They have to go through the story arc. And the side characters aren't confined by those restrictions. They are much freer and you do get to have a lot more fun with your side characters. I actually love writing side characters for I almost more than I do main characters.
[00:22:41] Matty: Well, it’s very interesting that I'm just having a new audio book narrator narrate my fourth Ann Kinnear Suspense Novel, and she had done one scene, fortunately right off the bat there's a scene that has almost all the characters in a conversation. And so she'd recorded that one chapter, sent it to me and said let me know what you want me to do with the voices, if you want any changes. And so I said, 'Oh, make this one sound a tiny bit gruffer sounding, make this one sound a tiny bit like more obsequious sounding' or whatever.
[00:23:09] And then one of the characters, Garrick Masser, I said, he really needs to sound like an American Christopher Lee and you almost can't go overboard with your portrayal of him because he's exactly, he's the fun side character that you can go overboard with, both as a narrator and as a writer.
[00:23:29] Sacha: Yeah. There was always a few in there. I have one in my young adult series who is basically an elf, an angry drunk elf, and her whole sole purpose is to go around smashing things, drinking all of the drinks and swearing. And she is just so much fun. And she will come in and cause trouble and leave again. And to be fair, she does help as well, but she's just my absolute fun outlet in story.
[00:23:59] Matty: So, is there ever a danger that the fun side characters are going to overshadow the protagonist? When should an author watch out for that?
[00:24:08] Sacha: So I talk about another concept in the book called "scene power." Now, scene power is this really handy tool wrapped up in an analogy. So if you think about a dinner party and let's say you're going to a dinner party, maybe there's 10 or 12 people at this dinner party. When you walk into the room, you as a human should be able to sense who the host is. There's almost intangible energy that will be drawing you towards the protagonist. And the protagonist is the host in this concept, the protagonist is the host.
[00:24:50] Now, the side characters or the guests will of course have their moments. So you may walk in when one of the side characters or the guests is telling jokes or telling an anecdote, and so briefly it may look like they are holding the power in the room, but they're not really, because if you think about the concept of a dinner party, there is only one person who decides when they're going to serve the starter. There's only one person who decides when they're going to clean the plates. When pudding gets served. Are they going to have coffee, and after dinner mints. That's only ever one person.
[00:25:31] And so if you were to walk into this dining room and somebody other than the host was there doing that and making those decisions, you may ask questions. And you'd be right to because the power dynamic would be wrong in that room. It's the host that leads. It's the host that drives. Now, yes, your guests may ask poignant questions that makes the host set and reflect about something. They may help to clean those dishes away, but they're not leading the dinner. They are not organizing it and they are not driving the evening. And that is the difference. So if you have scenes where your side characters all of a sudden start to make those decisions or start to drive the action, you know that there's a problem.
[00:26:20] Now one of the things I do in the book, and it's really uncomfortable to read and it was a really uncomfortable to write. So I take a scene from my novel, and I rewrite it so that the scene power is wrong. And you can barely tell who the protagonist is in the story. Oh, it's awful to read. I can barely read through it because it's so uncomfortable, and it's confusing and you're not sure who's making the decisions or who the protagonist is.
[00:26:51] And then I point out all of the places where it's wrong. And then I show the final scene that went into the published novel and all of a sudden everything flows. It feels right. The energy is right, the direction and the drive and the pull in the scene is right. Yeah, I like to give examples and I don't think there is any better example. I think that is my favorite example in the book, because it's so uncomfortable. I even give a warning to say, this is really uncomfortable.
[00:27:22] Matty: Now that's a book in a series, correct? Like the protagonist was already established before the scene that you are describing.
[00:27:30] Sacha: Yes. Yes. It's a scene towards the climax of the first book.
[00:27:35] Matty: Okay. So I'm wondering if so one is writing the first draft of their first book and they get done and maybe they do an exercise like you describe, and it's clear that they're sending mixed signals about who the protagonist is. Are there hints that an author should either heed or ignore that says maybe you've picked the wrong protagonist. Maybe the protagonist is actually the side character.
[00:27:58] Matty: Is there advice you give for people to either pursue that or ignore that or fix that?
[00:28:05] Sacha: So I think you have to ask yourself, what is your book trying to say, and which character is saying that in the most concise and clear way, because some side characters can come into particular scenes and sound off and that's okay, as long as they then aren't doing that in multiple scenes. If they're doing it in multiple scenes, then maybe you do have the wrong protagonist.
[00:28:30] Matty: To me, the key of that response is the idea of who's representing your theme. Because you do, as you had said earlier, you have the protagonist, who's embodying the theme and then the people there who are surrounding them are either providing them with a venue to pursue the theme or to reflect the theme, I guess.
[00:28:49] Sacha: Yeah, absolutely. And which way round is it in the majority of the book. So if you have a side character that has a small arc and your protagonist is influencing that arc, then the direction of the pull and the drive in the story is still that way, even if they're trying and trying to be the diva in that particular scene.
[00:29:12] And also, it really does depend on the point of view you're writing in. Maybe if you write in third person, you need to give them a point of view, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are the protagonist. They can narrate without being the protagonist. So it might be that the sort of point of view structure is wrong in your book.
[00:29:33] It might be that you have a narrator. So this is another good example. So I am writing a book called the SCENT OF DEATH and the narrator is not the protagonist. The narrator is narrating the book about the protagonist.
[00:29:47] Matty: It's like Sherlock Holmes and Watson, right?
[00:29:50] Sacha: Exactly. Right. Watson is not the protagonist. The story is always about Sherlock. But Watson has a lot to say and almost more to say than Sherlock. And therefore that is why they are narrating.
[00:30:03] So you have to look at what it is your side character's trying to do. Is it just that they have a lot to say, is it that they have a different perspective and therefore does that need to be shown in dialogue? Does it need to be shown in a scene? Is that part of their subplots? Or has the story become about them, because that can happen sometimes. But I would still go back to, what is it you're trying to say in the story? What is the arc of the main character or the main, whoever you decide that is, what is the arc? And do you have enough page time to explore that throughout all of the different scenes?
[00:30:40] Matty: When I'm thinking about your advice and this character I'd mentioned before, Garrick Masser, early on in the series, I thought, oh, maybe someday I'll spin off a separate series that focuses on Garrick. And then I realized that Garrick is fun for short shots, but a whole book about Garrick would I think be almost unreadable, because he's sort of like Sherlock Holmes, he's obnoxious and full of himself and always feels everybody's just an inconvenience and he just as soon be home reading. So that might be a hint too. Are they more of the spice or are they more the main dish if we're thinking of different metaphors we're using for this scenario.
[00:31:17] Sacha: Yeah, exactly. Like side characters are there to sprinkle a little bit of glitter, because like we said before, the protagonist is restricted by so many story rules and story structure. So just because a side character sparkles in one scene doesn't mean that they're the protagonist. It just means that bringing a bit of spice or glitter or whatever to your story.
[00:31:37] Matty: Right. And I was also thinking one of the comments you had made earlier about Katniss being the protagonist of HUNGER GAMES and imagining what that story would have been with, and I'm blanking on his name. the male tribute ...
[00:31:50] Sacha: Peeta or Gale? Peeta.
[00:31:52] Matty: I thought that would be interesting to imagine THE HUNGER GAMES from his point of view, because he obviously makes a lot of sacrifices, but you can't because he is keeping secrets that Katniss couldn't know. And if she knew, if you were hearing it from his point of view then, then it would be big swaths of the plot.
[00:32:08] Sacha: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:32:10] Matty: It seems like there are two ways you could come up with side characters. One is that you're writing along and somebody just pops into the story. And the other one is that you're stepping back and saying, I need someone to narrate the story. I need somebody to serve a function. Is one of those a better or more dangerous approach
[00:32:31] if you're early in the storytelling process?
[00:32:34] Sacha: I don't think so. I think writing a novel and writing a story is really difficult. And it doesn't really matter how you write the story as long as you get to the end. So, if you find it like generous amplitude to just make it up as you go along, fine. If you find that you're more structured and you want to plan out, I need a character to act as this function and this function, then do that.
[00:32:57] If you are getting to the end of stories, it doesn't matter how you are getting there. The point is to get to the end because it's so unbelievably difficult to do that when you're early in the process. So I always say don't ever let anybody tell you that there is one way to write a story because that it just isn't.
[00:33:14] And the thing is, ultimately books are not written. They are rewritten. And whatever your first draft characters come out like, they should hopefully be revised anyway as you go along. So as long as you're getting them on the page, you can fix them in later drafts.
[00:33:30] Matty: I often find that when I'm on a first draft, when I finish first draft, I have more side characters than I usually end up with because on subsequent revisions, I generally find ways to combine characters in a way that still serves the story need or the character development need that I had. And I like that the tighter effect, like all my books are more intense scrutiny and a small group of people, not a large cast. Are there guidelines about how many is too many for side characters?
[00:33:59] Sacha: There are exceptions to every single rule. Look at George RR Martin, thousands of characters, or Robert Jordan, Wheel of Time or whatever it is? Yeah, that's got 2,700 characters or something ridiculous. Look, ultimately the way I see it is that if you can look at your cast of characters and you can identify the purpose and the reason why they are in your story and what they are doing in your story and how they are impacting your story, then you probably need them.
[00:34:29] If you cannot identify what they're doing, or when I say what I mean, what influence they are having either positive or negative on the story or the protagonist, if you can't identify the message that they're giving, if you can't identify like a function, maybe they are there to be a joker and bring light to something that's very serious. Maybe they are there to make the protagonist reflect.
[00:34:56] If you can't identify some vital reason that they are in your story, you can probably get rid of them and give let's say they bring a message that's vital or something, if that's a transactional action. you can get another character to do that.
[00:35:14] That is my stance on major side characters. Obviously they are the ones who are most likely to be like archetypes, the mentor or the ally or whatever. Minor characters and cameos, well, they're kind of ten-a-penny anyway. If you're finding that you're struggling, I would always err on fewer, at least initially, because it's easier to manage them. And you don't want to have five different bar men. And then, a character that's mentioned once, and then it comes back at 700 pages later. And nobody can remember who this person is. It's better to combine them and have more mentions so that the reader will remember them when you get to that point. But you know, and there are no rules. If you have characters who are going to do something, then let them.
[00:36:01] I also find for like, I write somewhere between plotting and pantsing, and occasionally I will drop in a side character, and they'll appear like a couple of times, but then it won't actually come to me why they're there until two books later. And then all of a sudden, they make a really big splash and I'm like, 'Oh, see, I did do it for a reason.'
[00:36:22] So you have to give yourself a bit of flexibility and a bit of wiggle room. Nobody's going to write to you and complain about some character that appeared three times in your book and didn't really do a lot. They're just not going to do that. They're going to write, because either you had them in floods of tears or they were super joyful or they hated your book, God forbid. So yeah, there are no rules.
[00:36:45] Matty: One thing I wanted to close out with, because I really enjoyed this part of your book, is the idea that sometimes I've read books where characters will show up and they'll be killed off and I feel like the only reason they ever showed up is so the author could achieve what they hope to be like a moment of drama or tragedy or pathos or something by killing them off. And you had this really interesting sort of assessment of when it's okay to kill off the side characters and when it's a bad idea to kill off the side characters. Can you just talk about that a little bit.
[00:37:14] Sacha: Yeah. Okay. So bad reasons to kill off the character because it's going to make you rate a cry, because it's for shock value. If they're a diverse character, now this is really difficult one because if it's right for the character arc or if you're writing a book about all diverse characters, then obviously somebody is going to die somewhere along the line. So I'm not saying you can never kill a diverse character, but what I'm saying is there should be a reason behind it because there was not enough diversity in fiction as it is.
[00:37:42] So yeah, there's, it's such a thing that there is even a troop called "kill your gays" because gay people are killed in fiction so often.
[00:37:50] Another reason for not killing a character, and I have done this myself, so I'm complete hypocrite, to say this, but also I know it's really annoying is if I'm not going to stay dead and, spoiler alert, I'm going to give a warning cause I'm about to spoil something.
[00:38:03] Have you read NEVERWHERE by Neil Gaiman?
[00:38:05] Matty: Yes
[00:38:06] Sacha: For anybody who hasn't read NEVERWHERE by Neil Gaiman. I'm warning you now <of spoilers>.
[00:38:15] So the Marquis the Carabas or whatever his name is, is killed and worse, he's killed off screen. And when he comes back. Now I knew, like I knew, like a little way later, obviously he's not killed for very long. I was like, what? As I was reading, I nearly didn't finish the book because I was so cross because he is a major side character, and he just spontaneously vanishes out of the story. And I was like, what? and he's killed off screen. And so I was very cross about that. And then I was like, 'hang over that' there's no body, he's got to be coming back. And he does eventually come back. But I just, it didn't work for me in that instance.
[00:38:54] There are other instances where it does work. So like for example, I feel really bad, I'm like spoiling things for people, but have you watched the TV show SCANDAL? In fact, I can do it without using SCANDAL. So for example, in thrillers, quite often, people die but there's never a body. And so maybe it's somebody's parent or maybe it's somebody's boyfriend, like Patricia Cornwell is famous for this as well. And somebody dies and then there's never a body, but like their life is ruined and the protagonist mourns for this person.
[00:39:26] And then all of a sudden you're like, hold up and then they come back. Sometimes it can be done really well. And it's a plot twist. But I think you have to have enough description and realism around that death for it to be real enough that the reader can accept that death. And then you have to also have a really good amount of realism and explanation to bring that character back. Otherwise, it's a problem. In magic systems, it's much easier to do this. And the last reason not to kill a character is when you're fridging them. So this comes from THE GREEN LANTERN which is a comic and his partner, Alexandra DeWitt or something, the major force basically kills her, chops her up and puts her in a fridge. And that's where "fridging" comes from.
[00:40:13] But the problem with that death is that he did it for no good reason. There was basically no motive behind it. There was no reason why, she was just killed off to further THE GREEN LANTERN's character arc. Now you can kill characters and use it as motivation, but like as long as there's justified reasons behind it, rather than just serving to push a male character's character arc on.
[00:40:40] And I say this, and it's not just men. What was her name in Willow that was there in BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER. She was dating Tara and Tara is shot and killed. I'm sorry, it's a spoiler on that. This was years ago, though.
[00:40:58] Matty: I'll put a warning in the front of this: FILLED WITH SPOILERS!
[00:41:04] Sacha: Sorry, sorry about that, but I like examples.
[00:41:07] Matty: Sure, I do too.
[00:41:08] Sacha: So yeah, Tara is Willow's girlfriend, and she is shot. We never find out who shoots her, like I think anyway, and she just dies. And the only reason she dies is to send Willow off the deep end, into like bad witch arena. That's it? And it's, there's just no justification.
[00:41:26] A good death should have a consequence and it can either be a plot consequence or an emotional consequence, but there should be a consequence. There should be reason why. It should be justified. So yeah. And so that gives you some good reasons.
[00:41:39] Matty: Could I just go back for one second to one of your bad reasons, because I'm going to do a counterpoint on the NEVERWHERE thing. NEVERWHERE is probably my favorite book of all time. And I've listened to the game and narrated audio book, like six times. And my defense of the Marquis's death, and then resurrection, and I'm thinking this through. It may not turn out as watertight as I might like it to, but the fact that he makes the sacrifice is so seemingly out of character, he's sort of the ultimate selfish person through most of the book. And he has agreed to do this favor because not owing a favor is primary for him, and to me his death and then coming back, first of all, him coming back, I was totally fine with because it's NEVERWHERE, that kind of stuff is happening all the time, but it was like the ultimate illustration of his personality that he hated owing a favor so much, he was willing to go through this horrific experience of losing his life and then even getting his life back wasn't particularly pleasant, in order to erase that debt, and I just thought that was, I bought it. And I love that scene because I thought it was such a perfect illustration of his priorities in life or in death.
[00:42:58] Sacha: So my issue wasn't that he died and came back. My issue was that it was off screen.
[00:43:05] Matty: Oh, okay.
[00:43:05] Sacha: You don't see it happen. Yeah, that was my problem. I was like, wait, what? And I was so distracted by the fact that all of a sudden he died. I was then completely jarred out of the story. So, another really good example of a very selfish character who makes the ultimate sacrifice is Ironman, and it's almost, it's a very similar trajectory and story. He doesn't come back.
[00:43:28] But yeah, it fulfills that character arc beautifully. And so it is completely justified to do that. And that is one of the good reasons to kill a character is to justify that, or to fulfill their character arc. Rufio is another one from PETER PAN where he hated Peter, but he didn't really, he just admired him and wanted to be him, but obviously they have a terrible relationship at the start. And then he makes the ultimate sacrifice for him, completing that journey in that arc relationship between him and Peter.
[00:43:59] So yeah, I do understand and completely agree that he did complete an arc and almost didn't complete an arc because he did it for selfish reasons. He did a very unselfish thing for selfish reasons, which is just this wonderful juxtaposition.
[00:44:16] Matty: Right. If he had been doing it for unselfish reasons, then I would have been fed up, but it was perfect. But yeah, Neil Gaiman, if you're listening to this, please leave a comment about why you had the Marquis die off screen.
[00:44:28] And another interesting thing about in NEVERWHERE, I'm nerding out on NEVERWHERE now, is that on the audio book, and I think in the print book, if you get it, you may also get the extra short story HOW THE MARQUIS GOT HIS COAT BACK.
[00:44:43] Sacha: I didn't, but I bought it and read it.
[00:44:45] Matty: Yeah. And that's interesting because there were some of the funniest lines I've ever read in that. I just laugh out loud every time I listen to it. But there were a couple of things that like you find out about his family situation. I'm like, I don't really want to know about the Marquis's family situation. I'm happy just having it be the Marquis. So that would be an example of either a brilliant or an uncomfortable spinoff of a side character into their own story.
[00:45:14] Sacha: No, absolutely. Yeah. So some of the other reasons. Okay, so to motivate a character. I know I said, obviously don't fridge a character, but you can like Black Widow dying spurs on the rest of the Marvel characters to continue fighting on. And like we said, if it's a good end to their character arc, it brings it round nicely. Character can die and it can throw the protagonist into the dark night, maybe it was a loved one, maybe it was a friend, maybe it was their mentor; mentor was a very obvious one that happens all the time in fantasy. Because it's realistic.
[00:45:48] GAME OF THRONES. If nobody died, it would be a bit weird, there's battles constantly. Maybe augments the theme. So really good example of that is THE FAULT IN OUR STARS, where the theme is about loss and grief and illness and teenage death, and so somebody's got to die because it was realistic and it augments the theme.
[00:46:05] Maybe advances the plot, maybe it puts a barrier in the way or removes the barrier and therefore it's helping the plot along. And then the other one that we've already talked about is around the character arc completion.
[00:46:18] Matty: Yeah. There are some, it would be. I didn't actually watch GAME OF THRONES because it was too violent for me. But I would occasionally see like the recaps and it would basically give the roster of who had died in that episode. And I thought, there's got to be people who were really invested in that roster of people and are unhappy.
[00:46:35] Sacha: It was so good until the last couple of episodes. And then I just threw my toys out the pram. I was furious.
[00:46:44] Matty: Yeah. I heard that from other people as well.
[00:46:46] So Sacha, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and talking through that, please let the listeners know where they can find out about your new book and all your other books and your work online.
[00:46:56] Sacha: Thank you so much. So you can find me on SachaBlack.co.uk. I am probably most active on Instagram where I'm @SachaBlackAuthor. You can listen to my podcast: THE REBEL AUTHOR PODCAST, where you will be coming on very soon. Or actually perhaps you will have already been on by then. And what else? Yeah, I'm wide, so you can get my books on any store, anywhere. Yeah, I think that's most of the things.
[00:47:23] Matty:
[00:47:23] Sacha, thank you so much. This was so much fun.
[00:47:25] Sacha: Thank you for having me.
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